2017 Homesteaders PDC (permaculture design course) & ATC (appropriate technology course) in Montana

John Derry wrote:
In the specifics I think I meant I could pay you the 5 or so week work shortfall before the courses started and earn it back, minimising your risk?

Let's do the math.  

What day would you arrive?

The first week is tossed out because that always ends up being a wash.   That leaves a dollar value for each week after that.  How many weeks will you be here before the pdc?

paul wheaton wrote:

Let's do the math.  

What day would you arrive?

The first week is tossed out because that always ends up being a wash.   That leaves a dollar value for each week after that.  How many weeks will you be here before the pdc?

My current commitment ends on the 28th of April. I could fly early the next week after that.

John Derry wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:

Let's do the math.  

What day would you arrive?

The first week is tossed out because that always ends up being a wash.   That leaves a dollar value for each week after that.  How many weeks will you be here before the pdc?

My current commitment ends on the 28th of April. I could fly early the next week after that.

So you have three full weeks and some before the event starts.

Earlier I said:

To take both courses (PDC and ATC):  eleven weeks (arrive before march 13)  

So, with the first week being a wash, that leaves eight out of ten weeks.   80%.  80% of $2000 is $1600.  

So I think what your proposal is, is that:

A:   you send me $1600 via paypal.

B:   you arrive here around May 2nd and get right to work on work trade stuff.

C:   attend the PDC and ATC.

D:  continue doing work trade stuff until the entire 11 weeks is complete.

E:  once D is completed 100%, then I will return your $1600 (minus $100 gapper fee).  And since you are are part of the not-a-flake party, then there will never be a discussion about leaving early and getting part of this back, or shifting the terms of this arrangement in any way, or leaving for six weeks in the middle of the 11 weeks ....    in other words, if D is completed only 99.999% then I get to keep the $1600 and laugh myself silly all the way to the bank.

If these are your terms, then ... okay, you talked me into it.  But I will only believe that you really mean it when the $1600 arrives.

Just to be clear:


We still have two work trade spots open.


We still have two ATC tickets left at the early bird price.


We still have six PDC tickets left at the higher price.


There is still a discount if you buy an ATC ticket and a PDC ticket at the same time.


We are still watching the "poor man's poll" to see if there is enough interest to justify recording and sharing the event.  So far there hasn't been enough interest.

paul wheaton wrote:
We are still watching the "poor man's poll" to see if there is enough interest to justify recording and sharing the event.  So far there hasn't been enough interest.

The poll for video options of the pdc and atc starts here.

Actually able to seriously consider the upcoming PDC! This makes me both terribly excited, as well as scared due to myself being a permie newbie and perhaps part of the comic relief portion of the course due to my ignorance.  I have listened to some of the podcasts, and consider this opportunity a major next step.  There is a chance I might miss the last day.  Do you think this PDC is appropriate for a newbie?  Do I miss out on the certificate or a major part of the experience if I am unable to attend the last day?

Pamela Kline wrote:Actually able to seriously consider the upcoming PDC! This makes me both terribly excited, as well as scared due to myself being a permie newbie and perhaps part of the comic relief portion of the course due to my ignorance.  I have listened to some of the podcasts, and consider this opportunity a major next step.  There is a chance I might miss the last day.  Do you think this PDC is appropriate for a newbie?  Do I miss out on the certificate or a major part of the experience if I am unable to attend the last day?

If you miss the last day, then that is the day that you would present your design and receive your certificate.   Perhaps the certificate isn't all that important to you.  

I do think this course is appropriate for a newbie.  Especially a newbie that has listened to some of my podcasts.  

So there is the whole thing I describe where daniel is thinking about coming and recording the PDC and ATC live:  

https://permies.com/wiki/40/61764/Homesteaders-PDC-permaculture-design-ATC#538990


It seems that people are interested in both and interested in the recorded stuff.  I exchanged some emails with daniel and ....   the number of people that clicked on it, isn't enough to do it.  There is another school of thought:  what if there were much more people for a much lower price?   Let's try that:

Click on the thumbs up for this post if you would pay $100 for the live AND recorded version of BOTH the pdc and atc.   So that would be four weeks of stuff for $100.

I just did some math ....    for all of the PDC and the ATC that would be about 200 hours of stuff.  It would be an enormous undertaking.  

It sounds like daniel would offer it live, so people could even ask a few questions as things are being recorded.   And then within 24 hours (generally) the recorded part would be available.  it might even be instantly.  There are a lot of details to hammer out.  

But at the top of the list, are there even enough people that want it to justify doing it?

I think $100 for live and recorded of both events is super freaky cheap - 50 cents per hour?   So that would be the bottom price.   And we can pull it off if there is a huge number of people that want that.  

If you are one of the ones that clicks on thumbs-up for this idea, then be sure to watch this thread (click on the "watch" button for this thread).  That way, if we do choose to do this, then you will be notified.

paul wheaton wrote:

Pamela Kline wrote:Actually able to seriously consider the upcoming PDC! This makes me both terribly excited, as well as scared due to myself being a permie newbie and perhaps part of the comic relief portion of the course due to my ignorance.  I have listened to some of the podcasts, and consider this opportunity a major next step.  There is a chance I might miss the last day.  Do you think this PDC is appropriate for a newbie?  Do I miss out on the certificate or a major part of the experience if I am unable to attend the last day?

If you miss the last day, then that is the day that you would present your design and receive your certificate.   Perhaps the certificate isn't all that important to you.  

I do think this course is appropriate for a newbie.  Especially a newbie that has listened to some of my podcasts.  

I have had a few people question me privately about what i wrote here.   Their feedback was some variation of "harsh much?"

Part of me is of the school of thought "sell all the tickets, have a great event, get on with my life."

But a bigger part of me is thinking about maintaining a strict standard of quality.  

Throughout the planning for this PDC a half dozen people have suggested that we don't have to work so hard on some angle or nuther because "other PDCs don't ______"

Yesterday, Jocelyn and I were talking about this and she pointed out that this was a huge issue with Toby Hemenway:   he wanted the two week certificate to mean MORE!  If somebody says that they are "a certified permaculture designer" he wanted people to think "I wish to hire that person for design work!"  

A couple of years ago I recorded a podcast with Geoff Lawton - probably the most respected PDC instructor as well as "Bill's chosen".   He and I talked about what it would take to create a PDC that is "the tesla roadster" of PDCs.  Or, possibly the "leer jet" of PDCs.  After all, when the super rich folks are all bragging to each other that they have taken a pdc and that they are keen on permaculture, I think we will see a whole new generation of acceptance with permaculture.  So I presented the idea of a PDC that was $5000 per student, and Geoff pointed out that we should really be trying to figure out what a $50,000 per ticket PDC looks like.  

So rather than asking "what corners can we cut?"  I think we should be exploring "What does a $3000 PDC look like?"  And once we have figured that out, then we move on to $6000.   And, of course, before you actually charge $3000, you have to offer THAT pdc for a MUCH lower price.  

At the same time, Geoff Lawton offers a damn fine online PDC.   And a lot of great instructors are starting to offer online PDCs.   So, again, rather than exploring the space of what an average PDC offers, I want to explore the space of what it takes to put out THE BEST pdc.   If we are going to charge more money that Geoff Lawton's online PDC, we need to earn every penny of that.  So I want to challenge Geoff and all the other PDC instructors out there.  And I know Geoff well enough that Geoff would say "It's on!  Let's dance!"  

So this isn't just a PDC.   This is a stepping stone to changing the world through permaculture.  

Right now our site is still under construction.   But we are in much better shape than when we taught the PDC last year, or the year before.  I think our PDC this year is a strong step up from last year.  And along the way, I hope to build a better understanding about how we can offer an even better PDC next year.


----

To address leaving a day early ....

I think a person could come, take the class and leave a day early.   But they don't get the certificate.  That is their choice.  I hope that they will choose to juggle things in their life so that they can make the last day.


One person said "why not allow her to present her design a day early?" - the answer is that we already have other things scheduled then.   A full day of stuff from Thomas Elpel, author of botany in a day.  

Plus, this is a PACKED PDC.  In a university setting, all of this would be spread out over several months.   Instead, we are already trying to squeeze everything into 14 days.  

Plus, I think the core of THIS PDC is the design process.   Bringing all of the pieces together properly.   Tim and I agree on an iterative process.  And the first three sessions of the day on the last day are dedicated to the iterative design.   So a student that is leaving a day early is missing out a LARGE part of the design education.  The rest of the class was about building up to that day.  It's like reading a great novel, but you skip the ending.  

Finally, on the last night is talent night.   Dreaded by about half the students.  I suspect that those students would ALL be saying "golly, gee willickers, can I just get the certificate and be on my way without doing the talent night thing?"  

The ceremony is that you get up, do your shitty talent night bit and you get the certificate.   Not only was Bill Mollison insistant that all students had to do this, therefore it is a tip of the hat to Bill, but there is a damn good reason why everbody has to go through this suffering.  If you hold the piece of paper, you have endured standing in front of a crowd.   I do like the idea that anybody that has any concern over "I have no talent" that our instructors will find something to prop you up on that stage.  

So, to Pamela:   I hope that you find what I am saying to be of great value.  I hope that you agree with what I am saying and that you will juggle your stuff so that you can join us this year.

To the people that are contacting me to say "aw c'mon, don't be a dick":

https://permies.com/t/35374/world-lamest-jedi-mind-trick
https://permies.com/t/60055/nice-don-dick-dick
https://permies.com/t/60076/Wheaton-Law-Don-Dick-Corollaries

This PDC sounds amazing,  all the instructors that I would love to get a PDC from.  Unfortunately I can't come.  So take my money now so I can watch from here!

...figure out what a $50,000 per ticket PDC looks like.  

That is more than a Permaculture Design Certificate.  I would label that a Bachelor's of Permaculture Design, or even a Master's.  A course of that level deserves something more than a certificate, calling it a degree fits the price point better.  The question that naturally flows from this train of thought is 'Do you call the school PU or UP?'

Ryan Workman wrote:

...figure out what a $50,000 per ticket PDC looks like.  

That is more than a Permaculture Design Certificate.  I would label that a Bachelor's of Permaculture Design, or even a Master's.  A course of that level deserves something more than a certificate, calling it a degree fits the price point better.  The question that naturally flows from this train of thought is 'Do you call the school PU or UP?'

The point of it is not to provide four years of education, but to cater to provide a two week course that includes parking for a private jet and a 24/7 personal staff standing by that knows how to cater to the sort of folks that buzz around in private jets.

If you guys are able to make the video available for $100 I would pay for it (and yes I did thumbs up the post). Unfortunately, I don't really have more then the $100 available at this time

Bernard Welm wrote:If you guys are able to make the video available for $100 I would pay for it (and yes I did thumbs up the post). Unfortunately, I don't really have more then the $100 available at this time

For now, the idea is that daniel needs to decide if he will do it at all.  There were about 10 people that were interested at $300 per person.  So that's $3000.   So daniel looks at that and thinks about $2500 in expenses, plus driving to and from LA, and about five weeks of working 16 hour days.  

With all that, I can understand daniel saying "i don't think so."

So we drop the price to $100.   Maybe 50 people will do it.  So, more people at a lower price.  At $5000, daniel is more likely to jump on it - but I think $5000 is probably the edge case.

I thought by now we would see 50 thumbs up for this and we would move forward.  But it now looks like it is wise that we did this poll - to find out that there is very little interest.

In other words, I think you will be able to keep your $100.

If Daniel would name his price, maybe people could come up with enough coin together to make this happen.  Yes it is very unfair for someone to pay 300 for the same thing as someone who only had to pay 100.  But I think anyone willing to drop coin on this wants  to see this happen.  I'm not rich and would be fine with dropping 100$  but if I had to throw in another 20 or maybe another 100 to see this I would.  This PDC is a 5000$ a ticket PDC in my opinion.

I think that this would be the way forward. I'm doing Geoff's online PDC at the moment, and have a bunch of other stuff that I'm busy with, so I couldn't join the live stream as much as I want. (Also timezones)
However I'd happily pay at least 200 bucks for access after the fact. You've got some great names lined up and I expect the standard to be really high. It's the outside practical stuff I'm missing with Geoff (there's no way I can take 2 weeks out to do a PDC at this time) and your's would fill the gap a little, and if I pay more than other people, then I really don't mind.

Why don't you mail all the people who thumbed, ask what they'll pay, total it all up, and see if it hits the magic number.
Give it another push in the daily if you want.

But that's just like my opinion, man. :0)

Rus Williams wrote:Why don't you mail all the people who thumbed

The system keeps all the thumbs anonymous.  

But that's just like my opinion, man. :0)

The dude abides.

Question, I  just sent over some funds but would like to receive information on my permies account email as PayPal is linked to my wife.  Is that possible?

Willy Walker wrote:Question, I  just sent over some funds but would like to receive information on my permies account email as PayPal is linked to my wife.  Is that possible?

We sold two tickets yesterday.  I replied to both.  Can your wife forward the email to you and we can get the details hammered out?

We now have


ONLY 4 PDC TICKETS LEFT!

ONLY 2 ATC TICKETS LEFT!




We also have two more guest instructors and we have fleshed out the schedule.  All the details at:


https://richsoil.com/pdc.jsp

More questions.


Plane Ride all setup.

Arriving mid day Friday
Leaving super early Sunday.  

Is there a number for setting up the ride to and from?  I see I need to have cash and I see the costs,  will do.   I would assume its better to arrange ahead of time.  


Next,   is there power available to charge a cell phone?  How about my camera batteries?     Would I be better off bringing some type of solar charger/power?

Speaking of cell phones?    I see a mention of Verizon.   How about ATT?  


Thanks!

Willy Walker wrote:Plane Ride all setup.

Did you get your payment squared away?  

Is there a number for setting up the ride to and from?  I see I need to have cash and I see the costs,  will do.   I would assume its better to arrange ahead of time.  

Yup - get that all sorted through email well ahead of time.  When we get close enough, you should have a phone number of the person that will be picking you up.

Next,   is there power available to charge a cell phone?  How about my camera batteries?     Would I be better off bringing some type of solar charger/power?

We will have lots of outlets.   I just sent an email to fred to make sure that we have lots and lots.

Speaking of cell phones?    I see a mention of Verizon.   How about ATT?  

Verizon reception is very good.  Typically five bars.   AT&T people have reported good reception.

We will also have wifi available.

All great answers.

As for my payment, Yeppers!  


I will send my plane arrangements over via the original email from you.  

Hi Paul,
I hope this is the proper thread to post this on ... I've been drooling over the PDC for awhile now.

To introduce myself super briefly: I registered on Permies several years ago but have not posted much but have enjoyed noodling around on the site. I'm a UX designer and artist by trade who is saving up to buy some land. I live in AZ now but have lived in MT in the past & hope to buy some land in NW MT at some point.  

I'm hoping to register for the PDC but I'm wondering if there are any spots left for sleeping in the tipi, cabin, wofati, etc to rent for the length of the PDC?

Knowing this bit of info plus cost would help me make my decision.

And do you take PayPal for those above mentioned accommodations?

Thanks so much,
muy excited(!!!)
Eva

Ah, so we have several people interested in lodging, and we've been scrambling to get all the details in order before replying to them, or posting here.

HINT to current students: filling out your registration form really helps us with these details, even if you don't have your travel details finalized - you can fill the form out multiple times.

wheaton labs is TWO pieces of property, two miles apart - base camp and the lab. The road between these two is paved, then gravel, then dirt (some times mud adventure!) and steep in places. High clearance and/or 4WD or all-wheel drive is recommended. Walking between the two takes about 40 minutes. Some residents regularly bike between the two. I'm not sure yet if we'll have extra bikes from our awesome group of Free Cycle bicycles.

I'm repeating this here because the courses will take place at base camp. For the pdc, all base camp bunks are full, but I think* we have still have bunks available at the lab. For the atc, there is one bunk available at base camp, plus I think* some spots at the lab.

*I'm posting this as "I think" because we still need to email those students who registered and checked the box that they are interested in a bunk here. I'll do that later today with pricing and availability. I'm thinking there could be bunks available on the lab after that, and if there are, I'll post pricing and availability here.

FYI .... I am talking to Charlie Mgee of Formidable Vegetable Sound System of possibly stopping by the PDC for an evening.   Apparently Charlie is buds with Tim and Byron.  Maybe cuz they are all australian permies?

https://permies.com/t/38091/art/Formidable-Vegetable-Sound-System

I am thinking that we will fire up toots (our 12 passenger van) and bring people from the lab each morning, and return them each evening.

I am also hoping that by the time the pdc starts, we will have a total of 14 bicycles available for everybody to use to get back and forth.   Converting that 40 minute walk to less than 10 minutes.

And, yes, we do take paypal for the bunks.

All of the bunks are "first come, first serve".  So if you bought a ticket today and immediately said "bunk! gimmie!" then I suspect that within a couple of hours, a bunk would be nailed down for you.   And the people that bought tickets a few weeks ago but still have not made their bunk decisions would then have less options.

If it turns out that you don't get a bunk here and you don't want to tent it, there are some bunks-for-rent about two minutes away (by car) (log cabin lodge-ish thing) and more 7 minutes away (hotel/motel thing).  All of these particulars get sent shortly after you buy your tickets.

paul wheaton wrote:So there is the whole thing I describe where daniel is thinking about coming and recording the PDC and ATC live:  

https://permies.com/wiki/40/61764/Homesteaders-PDC-permaculture-design-ATC#538990


It seems that people are interested in both and interested in the recorded stuff.  I exchanged some emails with daniel and ....   the number of people that clicked on it, isn't enough to do it.  There is another school of thought:  what if there were much more people for a much lower price?   Let's try that:

Click on the thumbs up for this post if you would pay $100 for the live AND recorded version of BOTH the pdc and atc.   So that would be four weeks of stuff for $100.

So we are now up to 43 thumb ups for this. Does that mean it is more likely to happen?

All of these particulars get sent shortly after you buy your tickets.  

I just got an earful from jocelyn.

Apparently, the plan was that once all of the students filled out the questionairre, we were going to send them all "the particulars".   BUT!  Several students have not filled out the questionnaire.  The questionnaire asks stuff like "do you want to tent it, bunk it or what?"  

So I have decreed that once a person has filled out the questionnaire, we are sending out "the particulars".   So it sounds like several people will be getting "the particulars" today.    If people still don't have the particulars within 24 hours, you can email me and I will make sure you get it.  

Tracy - I heard that you are exchanging emails with individuals with bunks.   Please try to get that all sorted out today.  

Within the next 48 hours I want to make sure that every responsive student (meaning those that reply to emails) knows precisely how they are coming and going and precisely where they are staying!

43 people have said that they would part with $100 to get 200 hours of video.  

14 people said they would pay $300 for roughly the same thing.

I think we can make this work.  

In talking to daniel about budget, it sounds like a rough guess is about $7000 between contraptions, internet and him driving up here.  

At the same time, there is an opportunity to get something with charlie mgee ...  

The trick with the thumbs is that in the past I have had people give 60 thumbs, and then I shell out $6000 for something and then only 25 people actually put up the money.  At the same time, I might get 20 thumbs for something, and then I do a kickstarter and get 800 supporters.  

I am thinking that this might be a good time to do a kickstarter.   And the kickstarter video could have music from charlie mgee.

We have 2 work trade openings for the PDC

We have 1 work trade opening for the ATC



To do a work trade for the PDC, you would need to arrive before april 10

To do a work trade for the ATC, you would need to arrive before april 24


So, if you wanna do a work trade, send $100 via paypal to paul at richsoil.com - this is what we call "a gapper fee" which makes it so we do all the stuff we need to do to accommodate you.   But most importantly, if you don't show up, it makes it so we don't feel nearly as angry about it.  

Hi Paul, we are really excited about coming to the PDC and ATC.  Just a few questions after getting the email today.

1.  Do we need to make any special arrangements with you ahead of time if we will be sleeping in our self-contained camper van?

2.  Would we be sleeping/parking in our van at base camp?

3.  Is it ok to show up on Friday if we want to attend the tour that starts on Saturday at 9:30am?

thanks-Kim and Jenni

Kim Stewart wrote:1.  Do we need to make any special arrangements with you ahead of time if we will be sleeping in our self-contained camper van?

It would be nice to know so we can be prepared for it.   You do know that there are no hookups and we don't allow a generator, right?  If you do feel the need to run a generator, we can arrange for a spot near the lab.

2.  Would we be sleeping/parking in our van at base camp?

If you don't need to run a generator and you don't need to plug in, then i think we can do that.

3.  Is it ok to show up on Friday if we want to attend the tour that starts on Saturday at 9:30am?

Yup!  In fact, a lot of pdc folks for the last two years arrived 4 to 7 days early.

Jocelyn is sitting here with me and she says that the email she sent earlier was forgetting about the tour on saturday, so we are planning on people mostly arriving on friday and saturday, but if they wanna come sooner, a heads up about that would be lovely.

Since our outlets are at a premium in the shop/auditorium, I ordered a couple 10-port charging stations.



You will need your own USB cable though.

Parking and the possibility of SHADE.

For both your privacy (and less so, security/safety), and our attempt to reduce nosiness from neighbors, we do not want vehicles parked where they can be seen from the road.

This means that the parking lot behind the shop/auditorium or the turtle lot are the two main parking options. Please park behind the shop unless directed otherwise.

These two parking lots are shielded at the road side by 8-to-10-foot tall berms that protect your vehicles (and your person and your belongings) from view, reduce wind and road noise, and are growing food, but they do not shade things much. Soon, we'll have more growing on the sides of the berms that should offer shade. Right now there are just a few large conifers nearby (not in the berms) that cast narrow shade for an hour or two during parts of the day.

Thanks for all the new information today via email.  I will need a ride from the airport on Saturday May 27 at 6:30pm.  You said that I could pay to have someone drive me in.  Wanted to get this up early in case other were arriving about the same time.   I will be sending a box of stuff and thanks for that info in how to do it.  I will mark it how since I will be staying in the house in a bunk?  

Natalie  

Natalie Manor wrote:Thanks for all the new information today via email.  I will need a ride from the airport on Saturday May 27 at 6:30pm.  You said that I could pay to have someone drive me in.  Wanted to get this up early in case other were arriving about the same time.   I will be sending a box of stuff and thanks for that info in how to do it.  I will mark it how since I will be staying in the house in a bunk?  

Natalie  

You're welcome!

Yes, hopefully several folks will also want a ride around the same time, so thanks for posting your time and date here.

Just your name, c/o J Campbell will be fine. We've got your number, I mean name.