"willow feeder in my house? Zero chance"

Somebody said "The chance of me implementing a willow feeder in this suburban house is 0."

My response:


I suppose that this is where it sucks to be me:  my brain drinks in all this information about the problems and then is twisted in such a way that I want to engineer a solution.  A solution for the planet and, at the same time, a glorious, luxuriant solution for the individual.

Perhaps when it is discovered that your current system has a problem and the solution will cost you $50,000, then the willow feeder stuff might start to look a lot better.  And you will be glad of perusing that one dollar ebook

https://permies.com/wiki/287110/Cleaning-Rivers-Oceans-Home-willow

I wonder if educating the educators of civil engineering would be a good way to go. I also think about the massive amount of dog poo and cat litter that goes into landfills.

Since there is little to no regulation about handling pet waste, perhaps focusing on the would -be inspectors might more help people become familiar with this technology.

At least pet people already handle pet excrement. (The remarks about poo phobia coming to mind.)

Where municipalities buy into SPCA services, it might be possible to monitor number of pets and who uses a municipal Willow feeder, instead of garbage collection, inflating per licensing then credits for ticket tapes for each Willow feeder visit? Where trash collection is only once every other week, being able to bring pet poo to a collection site anytime would be appealing. Myself, I compost the stuff in buckets with drilled holes near the bottom and leave for 3 years. However, I would bring those buckets to a willow feeder site and save on the number of buckets dedicated to this, and do it more. Or not...

Some municipalities charge for the amount of garbage they collect. I think many people are typically lazy and self entitled so perhaps the best way to encourage change might be finding ways to add convenience and hit their pocket books for non compliance.

I do believe that what humans do with their waste is one of our biggest problems and perhaps will be our downfall.

As far as I know, willows are quite invasive and take up a lot of room that I could use for fruit trees or other food plants. We have a septic tank and use gray water for watering plants, as well as utilizing other waste-handling systems I'm reluctant to describe here in case my city reads this. So, very, very, little goes into our septic tank–just some of the shower water and water used to clean the sinks and the last time we had the tank pumped, we were told it didn't really need it. That was about 12 years ago. If our septic tank failed, I think we'd be OK.

I have thought about whether a “mushroom feeder” could be a good alternative to willows in small spaces. Mushrooms are good at killing pathogens and when they are cooked (as mushrooms generally are) they should be free of anything questionable. The mushroom substrate could be re-composted afterward.

This isn’t to say anything about the officiality issues.

My household has been using a simple bucket privy for 30 years.  We have 24 raised garden beds and each year one of the beds receives all the contents of the privy (creating a pit at one end and covering it and creating a new one as it fills up).  All kitchen waste goes in it as well.  It sits over the winter before anything is planted in it.  This has worked very well for us and grows a great garden.

paul wheaton wrote:

My personal reaction to that interior is the same reaction I have as a woman using public restrooms: too small a space in front of the toilet!  

Of course anyone could (should, in my opinion) build one with a decent amount of space in front of the toilet so there'd be less chance of taking a mis-step on narrow stairs or actually getting a foot caught under that bottom step.  Or move the toilet so it's at the end of the building and a person would get a straight shot at reaching it.

I know you're a very smart guy so there must be a good reason why you want to use willow trees. In the meantime, I'm wondering what your second best tree or natural plant might be. Something that one might be able to substitute for a willow tree. I'm asking because I don't think a willow tree will grow up here. Thanks.

Lif Strand wrote:My personal reaction to that interior is the same reaction I have as a woman using public restrooms: too small a space in front of the toilet!  

Of course anyone could (should, in my opinion) build one with a decent amount of space in front of the toilet so there'd be less chance of taking a mis-step on narrow stairs or actually getting a foot caught under that bottom step.  Or move the toilet so it's at the end of the building and a person would get a straight shot at reaching it.

^^^ THIS ^^^

When I take a hard look at my house and my intention to age in place, jamming something iike this into one of the existing bathrooms is a dealbreaker. Not going to happen if it goes like that. If was laid up after having broken my leg and that was the only toilet in the house I would be screwed.

Anything that happens inside the existing building envelope here is going to have to mesh with the existing framing *AND* be accessible. We intend to have people living here who may have disabilities, and that might be us. So that means normal height fixtures with enough space around them for mobility aids. Grab bars. You get the picture. A willow feeder (or similar) is on the to-do list, but it will be outdoors in its own structure...and this means it can be designed for a wide range of users. And I will leave the indoor flush toilets hooked up, although sending one or both of them to a worm system might happen someday.

There is an old (85) lady in town who has a small shed up the back yard in which she has a willow feeder.  Her gardens are amazing.  IMHO it just takes the will, not the wont.  From the look of it, she has had the setup for years.
Just ask: is the local authority going to check what is in a small "garden" shed?

She uses 5 gal buckets with lids and a home made wood seat.

Barbara Manning wrote:I know you're a very smart guy so there must be a good reason why you want to use willow trees. In the meantime, I'm wondering what your second best tree or natural plant might be. Something that one might be able to substitute for a willow tree. I'm asking because I don't think a willow tree will grow up here. Thanks.

Cottonwood and poplar do pretty good.

Grass and bamboo do well.  

Bamboo can be a nightmare and I mean even the so-called clumping ones. It took us years to get rid of the golden bamboo we naively planted, which migrated through our yard. Some of the pieces we dug out were enormous and went way down deep and we went through many blades cutting the rhizomes out.

I would never plant bamboo again unless it were in a pot with a concrete saucer under it.

I have several reasons for deciding not to have a willow feeder in the house.

BUT - I have a workaround!

First, the reasons against.

I've been using a humanure bucket system for around 15 years. I'm getting older and my health is iffy. My other half has put his foot down and says he is not prepared to have me dealing with buckets as we grow old. He's trying to insist on an indoor flushing toilet and a septic tank so he doesn't have to worry about me not being able to manage the buckets at any time. And yes in theory he could take over the task, but life could easily take a turn so that he's not capable of doing it for me.

Also, the steps. Some days those steps look daunting. And what happens if I ever lose the ability to climb steps? Making an indoor one without steps presents crazy logical problems. And in fact I can't quite get my head around how we'd make any sort of  indoor one without crazy logical problems that occasionally also involved moving great big barrels around in the house. Which in themselves are going to get harder and harder for either of us to manage as we age.

So I've reluctantly agreed that when we install the indoor toilet, it's going to be a standard flush toilet. Probably connected to a septic tank though we haven't ruled out a reed bed system.

BUT - just because we have an indoor toilet doesn't mean we can't also have an outdoor one!

When I were a lass, every rural Welsh farmhouse also had a little house at the bottom of the garden, aka a tŷ bach, which was basically what most of you know as an outhouse. And it would be perfectly possible to first of all improvise a willow feeder in the shed that currently houses the humanure system. And at some point build one in a better location complete with handwashing facilities (which would be useful when Himself is all greasy and oily after doing mechanical things). And then when I feel up to going outside and climbing up steps I can use the willow feeder, and when the weather is awful or my knees are too achey or I simply don't have the energy any more, I can use the flush toilet in the house.

So if my health holds up, I get to not have to pay to get the septic tank emptied and I get free tree-food (I have zero intention of planting willows - it can go around the fruit trees with some mulch over it so it looks pretty in case we have visitors). And if ever I'm not up to such shenanigans I use the indoor flush toilet.

And of course with a small number of big barrels, it's possible to pay someone, or grovel to my son, to come over occasionally and haul them to the trees and empty them out for me if we're not up to the task ourselves.

In short - why not both?

Ooof. I know it is a very subjective thing, but I have trouble imagining a majority of the population thinking that hauling around garbage cans of poop- both fresh and aged - on a regular basis is going to feel like luxury. I suspect that most folks, when faced with the prospect of storing garbage cans full of their poop for two years, would try reeeealy hard to scrape that 50k together.
Another thing to consider: should you need to sell your home, a broken septic system and a shed holding 2 years of feces would likely lower the sale price by the amount it would cost to fix the septic and haul away the waste. So you wouldn’t have to pay put of pocket, but it would be a wash in the end.
I am not saying that willow feeders don’t work, or aren’t a good solution in some situations. But as far as widespread adoption, it seems like you would need a pretty major breakdown of our current systems to convince people that willow feeders are superior to less hands on systems.
To me, the earthworm systems have the most promise. They mimic the flush systems that folks are used to, are extremely good at dealing with pathogens, and I suspect much of the maintenance could be automated.

Uriel Andros wrote:My household has been using a simple bucket privy for 30 years.  We have 24 raised garden beds and each year one of the beds receives all the contents of the privy (creating a pit at one end and covering it and creating a new one as it fills up).  All kitchen waste goes in it as well.  It sits over the winter before anything is planted in it.  This has worked very well for us and grows a great garden.

This has been my method for about the same time as you. It's simple, inexpensive, and dissuades guests from staying long.

One thing I wish I had on my property is a willow...like the actual weeping willow with the lovely branches perfect for weaving with (not my lame sitka willow). I have a small patch of bamboo and one hazelnut tree. I usually find myself using nearly all of the shoots from both of those plants for building things like:

Baskets

Weaving all sorts of things. My kids are always asking me to make random stuff with the nature around up, like dolls and wreaths and brooms

Tomato cages

Pea trellises

Bean trellises

Squash supports

Wattle fences to keep out ducks from my garden

Posts to stake up my tomatoes

Sticks for my kids to hack at things with

Quick & dirty fence posts

Using for homeschooling projects--wattle & daub houses, fairy wing supports, nice straight sticks for all sorts of crafts

I often have to resort to using sub-par, non-bendy wood for these projects because I run out. I wish I had more good sticks.

This reminds me of this great thread: 101 Things to do with a pile of sticks

Burra Maluca wrote:
I've been using a humanure bucket system for around 15 years. I'm getting older and my health is iffy. My other half has put his foot down and says he is not prepared to have me dealing with buckets as we grow old. He's trying to insist on an indoor flushing toilet and a septic tank so he doesn't have to worry about me not being able to manage the buckets at any time.

What about putting a shallow, round,  plastic dish (the ones you get at a hospital would work well) that would fit over the ceramic edge of the toilet? You could use that with sawdust and then carry it to the humanure compost. It wouldn't be heavy at all and if people were visiting you'd simply remove the pan. I feel sure that works very well.

Lina Joana wrote:To me, the earthworm systems have the most promise. They mimic the flush systems that folks are used to, are extremely good at dealing with pathogens, and I suspect much of the maintenance could be automated.

Reading this whole thread, and these specific ideas about earthworm systems makes me want to learn more about the earthworm system. I'm still a novice with all this. I have used a composting toilet before, but never owned or managed one...

Paul, how does the earthworm system compare to the willow system? Also, isn't there a benefit to putting the poop in the garden, which is lost if we feed the poop to a willow tree? Isn't it better to use that humanure rather than 'waste' it feeding a willow tree?

(Also we don't have space for a willow tree in our yard, as we're trying to turn the whole property into a Food Forest, and we already have too many non-food trees: ginkgo, red beech, massive pine and some yews.)

Tammy Mayer wrote:

Reading this whole thread, and these specific ideas about earthworm systems makes me want to learn more about the earthworm system. I'm still a novice with all this. I have used a composting toilet before, but never owned or managed one...

Paul, how does the earthworm system compare to the willow system? Also, isn't there a benefit to putting the poop in the garden, which is lost if we feed the poop to a willow tree? Isn't it better to use that humanure rather than 'waste' it feeding a willow tree?

(Also we don't have space for a willow tree in our yard, as we're trying to turn the whole property into a Food Forest, and we already have too many non-food trees: ginkgo, red beech, massive pine and some yews.)

Here is a summary of the earthworm system:
https://www.earthwormsoc.org.uk/VermicompostingToilets

It is very different, and has some definite limitations of configuration (for example, your toilet has to be above ground level). Its advantages over the willow feeder and traditional composting toilet are - no carrying buckets/trash cans of poop! This is the part most people balk at, I think. Since it is a living system, it will still need some care- but since the tank is outside, I can envision outsourcing that, the way we do septic tank pumping. It uses a regular flush toilet - that means water usage, which is a disadvantage, but potentially can be mitigated through grey water reuse. If you actually don’t mind carrying the contents of a composting toilet, I think an earthworm system is a good humanure option, that would mitigate concerns over open piles. The advantage over the willow feeder would be not having to store waste for two years - worms work fast. The disadvantage would be needing to regulate the temp of the system.
  As far as using humanure/aged poop from the willow feeder on veggies - i think a lot of that is individual. If done correctly, either system should get rid of pathogens. But is someone in the house on meds, or detoxing from lead exposure, or whatnot? Maybe that isn’t actually a problem, but it worries some folks.

Cara Cee wrote:Bamboo can be a nightmare and I mean even the so-called clumping ones. It took us years to get rid of the golden bamboo we naively planted, which migrated through our yard. Some of the pieces we dug out were enormous and went way down deep and we went through many blades cutting the rhizomes out.

I would never plant bamboo again unless it were in a pot with a concrete saucer under it.

Sympodial bamboo, or "clumping bamboo" is not invasive like your running types which have underground rhizomes. Although not suited for US zones below 5, it would be a happy recipient of the compost pail!

We were told ours was a clumping bamboo when it was given us as a gift from a local nursery. It didn't run as much as running bamboo, but it did expand enough out from the original stand that it was unwanted, and as I noted, it was a huge endeavor to dig it out. Everyone I know who planted that yellow with green stripes bamboo removed it. We later heard it was "semi-clumping." I'm also in zone 10, so it grew very quickly and all year. I know how useful bamboo can be, but down here, even the non-running ones get very big and quickly.

Lif Strand wrote:My household has been using a simple bucket privy for 30 years.........and dissuades guests from staying long.

This is hilarious. Guests are like fish, they start to stink after a few days.

I love this discussion!
Since the seventies there have only been a few of our friends and peers who we've been able to have in depth brainstorming talks about poop!
This is the subject that first drew me to permies😊

Having set up and used a range of systems over the past 50 years living in the Ozarks (including an outhouse; garbage can receptacle under a board platform to squat on; a squatting trench and five gallon buckets most recently.....I still day dream about how to do a set up of some sort in addition to this flush toilet now that we've moved to town.

I have no doubt the willow feeder could be used indoors in a house well designed with that in mind...otherwise the five gallon bucket fits in easier....all can be done up scale and 'normal' looking...easy for family and company use.

The steps could easily be left off if the can were on a lower level...seems like the Tassajara toilets had a dug out ramp under the out house seat where a wheel barrow could fit and easily be removed to the compost area...a garbage can on a dolly could do the same.

When we bought our last house it had no septic tank and the toilets just flushed down the hill....we immediately switched to buckets and removed the toilets...worked for us but when we went to sell no one could get a mortgage because there were no flush toilets...in hind site it would have been better to keep them in place just for show.

Thanks for all your work on this one Paul!

Cara Cee wrote:
What about putting a shallow, round,  plastic dish (the ones you get at a hospital would work well) that would fit over the ceramic edge of the toilet? You could use that with sawdust and then carry it to the humanure compost. It wouldn't be heavy at all and if people were visiting you'd simply remove the pan. I feel sure that works very well.

I wouldn't like to use a plastic dish, mostly because the capacity is too small. Too many trips to the hamanure compost pile. Also no pail handle so a greater opportunity for an accident.

My 5 gallon potty buckets are "full" from my point of view when they are 2/3 full. Unless I am lazy about emptying,I never have to carry a full one to the compost pile.

I'm over three quarters of a century old now, so I'm sure the day will come sooner than later when I will only want to move half full buckets. If someday I can only carry a quarter full bucket, so what. Better than living in an old folks home even if they have flush toilets.

Lif Strand wrote:[

I wouldn't like to use a plastic dish, mostly because the capacity is too small. Too many trips to the hamanure compost pile. Also no pail handle so a greater opportunity for an accident.

It's once a day for 2 people and the dishes are easy to carry, in our experience. Much less cumbersome  and lighter than a bucket, at least for us.

I'm going to build a compost toilet for inside our next house using a couple of lidded buckets that go with the Separett brand of compost toilets. These are not too tall, quite wide and have a tightly fitting lid.
I think I read that in the UK it's no longer "hazardous" waste after six months?
My Grandad put sewage he got from the local council near London (UK) on his garden. This was quite a while ago, not sure if it was free or how many people did it, the only downside was tomato plants growing everywhere. His garden was amazing though.

jason holdstock wrote:I'm going to build a compost toilet for inside our next house using a couple of lidded buckets that go with the Separett brand of compost toilets. These are not too tall, quite wide and have a tightly fitting lid.
I think I read that in the UK it's no longer "hazardous" waste after six months?
My Grandad put sewage he got from the local council near London (UK) on his garden. This was quite a while ago, not sure if it was free or how many people did it, the only downside was tomato plants growing everywhere. His garden was amazing though.

I have heard the tomato story before.  Next step would be a rocket mass heater solar dryer and a big bottling session for over winter.  Down here in Aus, ledgend has it that some market gardeners used sewerage to great effect.  At the end of the day, we don't know what we don't know. So who cares? Oft quoted: there is no waste in nature.  I would llove to see pictures of your project as it progresses.

Seems like a 'less-stressful' way of life.  For the amount of anger, exhibited by some people; I happen to think, people on permies could come up with a fairly useful prescription to de-stress when someone starts becoming anti-social.  I'm sure; there are numerous causes, of unpleasant behaviour too.  In my case; ignorance, most of the time.  Ignorance and attitude.  To me; the more automated life gets  &  the more conveniences we have  &  the more distanced we get from people that don't have our background  (Or; our way of life.  Or; economic ability.  Or; ..........)  &  the more we have of what we want, the more that less-privileged people vent their frustration in public & extract some kind of satisfaction by injuring others.


Back to the topic, at hand :  Would more people; find a low-tech & waterless toilet useful, if a pail could be suspended above a much larger pail  (Or; a cut-off barrel.)  (With a lid; and a good layer of sawdust, in the bottom.)  by a rod that goes through the top of both pails with a handle on the end of that rod on the outside of the larger pail ?  The top  (And; inside pail.)  pail, is half-full of shavings  (Or; shredded paper, shredded leaves, grass clippings, shredded bark mulch, etc.).  Do your business, lower the lid.  And: turn the handle, shaking the contraption sufficiently to empty the top pail.  With 2 pieces of 'U'-shaped rod an inch or two above the bottom of the barrel & welded at right angles to each other, as an agitator   (For this step; the lid, would be raised.).  To agitate; kneel in front, placing 1 hand on 1 of the 4 ends of the agitator & the other hand on the end opposite, then turn the 'U'-shaped rod inside the barrel  (Or; larger pail.).  

Instead of piping water, you need to keep a steady & sufficient supply of dry & absorbent material, on hand.  Depends; on your resources, and preferences.  

A waterless toilet, in a camper; is lighter, and takes less fuel.  Especially; if there's no lack of dry leaves, at your destination.  And; if you welcome the task of gathering material, & feeling part of the 'back-to-the-basics' movement.

Some more thoughts;  
A peg fastened to the center of the horizontal top rod & extending to the bottom of the inside pail, would help the dumping.

Some way of locking the lid, might be advisable; if small children, are in the house & unsupervised.

Adequate absorbency, should smother smells.  Iknow, from experience.

paul wheaton wrote:

Barbara Manning wrote:I know you're a very smart guy so there must be a good reason why you want to use willow trees. In the meantime, I'm wondering what your second best tree or natural plant might be. Something that one might be able to substitute for a willow tree. I'm asking because I don't think a willow tree will grow up here. Thanks.

Cottonwood and poplar do pretty good.

Grass and bamboo do well.  

Thanks. I'll check it out the trees with someone who knows more than me about planting trees at this altitude. All I see up here are Cedar trees and a variety of evergreens.  the cedar trees are courtesy of the national government after the last big war. I guess they weren't in the mood to take anyone's advice about then. . .  I'll pass on the grasses and bamboo, too hard to control.