The LMNOP problem (alphabet song history and possible future)

I can't tell if he is making it up or if there are vast swathes of people out there, who grew up in the English language world and think that lmnop is one single letter (not 5 individual letters).  It's an amusing watch either way.

Also, twinkle star.  Why did i never notice?

Watching the rest of the video and hearing the new song, I have to admit an extreme dislike.

With dyslexia, lmnop was a godsend,  here was an anchor point in the alphabet. It's a different rhythm and letters either belong before, after, or inside.  Make it all the same rythm, and I'm all at sea.  Thank goodness, I learned the alphabet when i did.

See, alphabet song is useful to know the order of the alphabet.

r ransom wrote:I can't tell if he is making it up or if there are vast swathes of people out there, who grew up in the English language world and think that lmnop is one single letter (not 5 individual letters).  It's an amusing watch either way.

Also, twinkle star.  Why did i never notice?

Interesting!! he says "hAch" which is the Irish derivative.  The nuns apparently taught the soft and hard sounds together "h" as in huff and the hard "H" as in Atch (saying the letter)
He also says "zee" which is American phonetics.  Us colonials follow the mother tongue and say "zed" .  I have not heard the new version but have no doubt that somewhere it is real.

By the way, having done some travelling, I was interested that "Q" comes before "P" in England.  Mind you, Q comes before most things in England. 🤣

While my son was learning the alphabet, and the song, we had the first lambs of the year born - a pair of twins followed closely by a set of triplets.

We painted A and B on the twins, then C, D, and E on the triplets.

Unfortunately a fox took e on the first night. So my son modified the song to...

A, B, C, D. And little E is missing...

Then the next ewe had problems. Tiny F was born no problem but we had to assist with G. But it turned out their mom only one functional teat so G was hand-reared.

We switched to Star Trek characters the next year...

Apart from filing stuff (so as to be consistent with other people) and maybe reading music does it matter what order letters come in? Who decided the alphabet starts with A? Why not F or S? There doesn't appear to be any logic in it...

I'm used to NOPQR as the letter order (UK) , but maybe they changed it.... (or was it just a joke Paul?)

Quick search tells me this has been "A Thing" for some time and every few years it gets rediscovered, people get outraged, etc.
What I can tell you as a former literacy specialist and reading teacher: while kids may initially group things together and have a hard time separating the letters once or twice (and get hung up on 'Y and Z', and initially think it's YNZ or some such), they figure it out REALLY fast, especially once you give them cards or something to help them 'tokenize' individual letters. Kids are very good at figuring out context before they can even talk, much less read. A rock looks like a cookie, but by the time they're toddlers most kids don't pick up rocks to satisfy their hunger (play is a different story). They can definitely understand the concept of multiple letters said quickly together still being different letters. In fact, singing fast and slow is a lot of fun, as everyone who spends time with kids or ever was a kid knows.
Apparently the biggest complaint about the new song by educators is that kids are already 'contaminated' by the classic song and it's practically impossible to try to get them to forget that one and learn the new one. And then of course the family at home will probably not be very supportive...

For years in the US I taught adult reading, mostly to people who had left school because they had learning disabilities that were not addressed at the time. The alphabet song was something that everyone knew and could lean on as a resource. Nobody ever said "oh man that LMNOP letter is so hard to understand". People know it is multiple letters. I think frankly this is someone having a somewhat interesting idea and trying to make Big Money selling it to Big Education. (/grump)

The part of the Alphabet song that I usually remember most is the LMNO and P.

Nancy Reading wrote:I'm used to NOPQR as the letter order (UK) , but maybe they changed it.... (or was it just a joke Paul?)

The first time I went to the UK at 16 to visit relatives, we had to stand in a queue to buy toilet paper sheets and then pay the admission fee via a slot in the door - hence the term, spend a penny.
My parents were in the UK to get married immediately post WWll.  Mum always said that if a queue formed, you jumped in line to see what you could buy that was probably rationed or short stocked.

Probably needs to go  into the UK thread but I will put it here and move it later: Hence - Q for everything and Pee for relief (my parents version)

Origin and Popularisation (Wikipedia)
Clapham and Dwyer

   The Cockney Alphabet was popularised by the comedy duo Clapham and Dwyer in the 1930s.
   Their version, titled "A Surrealist Alphabet," was recorded in 1936 and featured a series of humorous phrases that correspond to each letter of the alphabet.

Example Phrases

Here are some examples from the Cockney Alphabet:
Letter  Phrase                  Translation
A   A for 'orses                   Hay for horses
B   B for mutton           Beef or mutton
C   C for 'th highlanders   Seaforth Highlanders
D   D for 'ential           Deferential
E   E for Adam                   Eve or Adam
F   F for 'vescence          Effervescence
G   G for police          Chief of police
H   H for respect         Age for respect
I   I for Novello         Ivor Novello
J   J for oranges         Jaffa oranges
K   K for 'ancis                Kay Francis
L   L for leather                Hell for leather
M   M for 'sis               Emphasis
N   N for 'adig                In for a dig
O   O for the garden wall Over the garden wall
P   P for a penny         Pee for a penny
Q   Q for a song         Cue for a song
R   R for mo                 Half a mo'       (short for moment)
S   S for you                 It's for you
T   T for two                Tea for two
U   U for me                You for me
V   V for l'France        Vive la France
W   W for a bob        Double you for a bob
X   X for breakfast       Eggs for breakfast
Y   Y for God’s sake        Why for God’s sake
Z   Z for breezes        Zephyr breezes

This alphabet serves as a humorous reflection of Cockney culture and language, showcasing the creativity and wit of its speakers.

Long answer Nancy - Yes 🤣

I think this belongs here.

'Z' is pronounced 'zed' for this one, like what it's supposed to be...

I had a book that taught me the alphabet backwards when I was young .. ending I aitch G f e dee cee b a (I hate G if he deceives BA).

Apparently, ordering of letters close to our "alphabetical order" is first documented in 1300s BCE on tablets in the Phoenician language.

For ages my little ones would sing the alphabet song LMNOP as 'yellow mellow peas'   😆

r ransom wrote:Watching the rest of the video and hearing the new song, I have to admit an extreme dislike.

I agree - rhyme is just as important as content. It sounds jarring to me because we lost the "G" rhyming with "P".

Kids mangle song words all the time. All it takes is a responsible, concerned adult, who cares enough to fix the problem. You wouldn't believe how badly I mangled "God Save our Gracious Queen" because I only heard it orally at school as part of a group, and it didn't make much sense to a 6 year old because "rain" is water from the sky, so why did some queen think  she had a hand in that!

With dyslexia, lmnop was a godsend,  here was an anchor point in the alphabet. It's a different rhythm and letters either belong before, after, or inside.  Make it all the same rythm, and I'm all at sea.  Thank goodness, I learned the alphabet when i did.

Exactly! Like the video about singing to know the alphabet, LMNOP allows me to "start" at "P" for the last part of the alphabet if I'm stuck on a letter. I worked in a library as a teen, so I didn't need to rely on the song due to repetition, but that was decades ago.