If you could start over...

Hi, everyone.

I'm new to permaculture. Like mega new. Like "I had been unintentionally prepping for this and heard about permaculture a week ago. Now I'm stuck in a rabbit hole, but I really like the rabbit hole" new. I want to do all the projects.

I bought new property in the Kansas City area a year ago. It's 1.6 acres in the suburbs, house from the 30s, no HOA but city laws about lawncare still apply, fair amount of clay in the soil. There are lots of trees. .6 of the land is a forest I'm about to start intentional care for, plus scattered trees throughout the backyard. I had been watching the way the land works since I bought it. Have a good idea of where a garden can go, hugels are going to be placed there next week. The previous owners were already in the process of converting the lawn shed into a chicken coop. We even found a metal coop door laying on the ground inside. They must have started working on it a long time ago, since the door was kind of rusty. We're going to build it during his vacation next week with the hugels.

I bought the SKIP book to use as a sort of project book for myself. I've already used it as a jumping point to help with some home improvement projects, which is pretty cool.

On to a bit of a problemo. Long story short, my husband is about to see a doctor who may or may not say "you need to retire early." We'll need to be able to go for this a lot faster than we expected. We have money set aside, so we'll be fine for a fair bit. If it was just the two of us, that wouldn't be as nerve-wracking, but we have kids as well. It turned things from "lets do a slow build" into "my brain is a labyrinth of information I don't know how to use because there's a minotaur chasing me."

If you were to start over on a suburban permaculture, what would you do first?

If you're looking for a single what would I do first thing, it's plant fruit (and nut) tree seeds all around the back property line, leaving room to get machines in and out in the future. That one is first because you can assume it'll take ten years for a yield and you want to have started yesterday. If you end up wanting ponds and swales and hugel-mounds, you can always do those when you need them.

ETA: to whatever extent you'll be gardening annuals, keep in mind the Buffalo Seed Company -- given your location! (I use them as a valuable seed source even though I'm 570 miles north of KC with a much more intense winter.)

I was about to ask if I would need to remove some trees, but I just thought of a good spot to put them. Our yard is a weird shape. There's a spot I can put them without disturbing the forest or losing the garden. Thanks!

We already have a pathway for machines, too. We use it for the lawn mower that is pretty much just for lugging things to the back.

I agree with planting fruit or nut trees first as it takes time for them to mature and start producing a harvest.

I would also suggest researching perennial vegetables to see if any of those appeal to you.

Plant what you eat and eat what you plant is a good motto.

I am sorry to hear that you husbands health might cause him to have to retire.

When my husband retired early he found that he liked to grow food.  He tried a lot of plants I never tasted because I was not familiar with them.

Take your time and don't try to do everything today as there is always tomorrow or another day.

The trees you already have are worth identifying before doing anything else. You might have more going on there than you think. Clay is annoying but not a disaster, just keep off it when it's wet and top dress with mulch, it improves faster than you'd expect.

Christopher Weeks wrote:If you end up wanting ponds and swales and hugel-mounds, you can always do those when you need them.

Unless you want them where you just planted trees!

Have you already got an idea of how you want the land to look in 10 years time? My suggestion would be to come up with the overall plan before you do too much - look at the relationship between design elements, that is what makes the difference in permaculture I think.
If you are likely to be dealing with health issues then too, you might find the aging homesteader a useful read!

Those trees that must be downed are a gold mine. You can use them for hugelculture, heating, construction, and much more - especially still having kids at home, to help, and a pathway for machinery. Congratulations on being able to make the leap, if you need to!! Hopefully, your husband's health will be great, and you'll still have plenty of time to sort out what you want/ need to do, and how to do it. Permies is definitely the place to get all the information you could possibly want or need - and more.

Take some time, to assess your family's needs, and above all, don't try to do everything at once. That is the number 1 fastest way to burning yourself and your family out. When we bought our place, 8yrs ago (we closed on it 8yrs and 2 days ago, exactly!), I insisted we let everything grow wild, for the first year, so we could observe and see what was growing here, wild. Turns out we have acres of wild blackberries, more medicinal & culinary herbs than I would have dreamed, a peach tree, planted by the previous owners, persimmon trees, black walnut trees, a plethora of wild mushrooms, crabapples, and loads of lespedeza - an antiparasitic herb that the goats LOVE. So, we did that right!

But, we also made some mistakes - we jumped into too much livestock, too fast. We made mistakes with them, simply by not learning enough before we got them. Oh, we learned the very basics, and I had some childhood memories - but not enough. So, my fervent advice to all folks new to it all - go as slow as you can. Try to only add one new skill at a time, and make sure at least two of you are fairly proficient, before moving on to the next thing.
Good luck - and HAVE FUN!!

Nancy Reading wrote:

Christopher Weeks wrote:If you end up wanting ponds and swales and hugel-mounds, you can always do those when you need them.

Unless you want them where you just planted trees!

Have you already got an idea of how you want the land to look in 10 years time? My suggestion would be to come up with the overall plan before you do too much - look at the relationship between design elements, that is what makes the difference in permaculture I think.
If you are likely to be dealing with health issues then too, you might find the aging homesteader a useful read!

After reading this one, I grabbed the property line map from my county and drew up a plan on top of it. Thank you.

I'd focus on perennials first before I ever worried about annual vegetable production.

When I first started, it was tomatoes that got me. I hated tomatoes growing up, which is fair because store bought tomatoes are a nonfood, but my dad grew some fantastic heirlooms and when I was 19 he convinced me to give tomatoes another try. I bit into my first bi-color yellow/red tomato and it tasted like pineapple. "WOAH! I didn't know tomatoes could taste like a fruit."

So, I immediately dug in. Discovered permaculture the next year, and I never looked back. That was 20+ years ago.

But, I didn't get serious about perennials for another 10 years. Part of that was my living situation, but part was just an ongoing obsession with my vegetable gardens.

If I were to start today, I'd spend about $10K getting a perennial system installed from the jump, all at once, and then build within and around the system to develop annual production and the soul-soothing beauty of the floral friends over the ensuing years.

Alternatively, I'd spend that money on an education and greenhouse equipped with misting stations and other tools that support effective and efficient propagation, and I'd get a permaculture nursery rolling and then build out my system from my nursery stock.

I'd choose the former approach if I was 40+, and I'd choose the latter approach if I was under 40.

Another thought - One thing that is worth doing sooner rather than later is collecting plants and starting seeds. If you have an idea what you want to grow - particularly pereniial vegetables. It will be far cheaper to grow from seed than to buy a whole load of plants. Even if only one comes up, you're probably quids in! Grow them in pots or a nursery bed and transplant to permanent places as your garden develops.

Carla Burke wrote:Those trees that must be downed are a gold mine. You can use them for hugelculture, heating, construction, and much more - especially still having kids at home, to help, and a pathway for machinery.

After following a bit of planning advice from Nancy, I think you'll like to hear I completely forgot about the mini woods on the side of my property where we have a pathway going for machinery already. My kids like to play in it so I wrote it off as their play place, but they're even more excited to turn that into a food forest. This also means we have the even more densely packed woods at the back of the property to provide wood. There's some trees there that need to be downed for safety reasons, which is what we were going to use for the hugels in the first place.

We also have a couple of walnut trees at the front of the property opposite of the driveway from a magnolia. There's a squirrel who puts the green walnuts in front of cars to run over and open up. We call him Phineas. When we moved here, we made magnolia tea. We also have a catalpa tree and we've harvested the worms from that for fish bait.

We have some really cool trees. My kids love pulling out the plant id books and matching them.

Nancy Reading wrote:Another thought - One thing that is worth doing sooner rather than later is collecting plants and starting seeds. If you have an idea what you want to grow - particularly pereniial vegetables. It will be far cheaper to grow from seed than to buy a whole load of plants. Even if only one comes up, you're probably quids in! Grow them in pots or a nursery bed and transplant to permanent places as your garden develops.

This is great advice.

Ryan Simon wrote:

Carla Burke wrote:Those trees that must be downed are a gold mine. You can use them for hugelculture, heating, construction, and much more - especially still having kids at home, to help, and a pathway for machinery.

After following a bit of planning advice from Christopher, I think you'll like to hear I completely forgot about the mini woods on the side of my property where we have a pathway going for machinery already. My kids like to play in it so I wrote it off as their play place, but they're even more excited to turn that into a food forest. This also means we have the even more densely packed woods at the back of the property to provide wood. There's some trees there that need to be downed for safety reasons, which is what we were going to use for the hugels in the first place.

We also have a couple of walnut trees at the front of the property opposite of the driveway from a magnolia. There's a squirrel who puts the green walnuts in front of cars to run over and open up. We call him Phineas. When we moved here, we made magnolia tea. We also have a catalpa tree and we've harvested the worms from that for fish bait.

We have some really cool trees. My kids love pulling out the plant id books and matching them.

Walnuts take a long time to produce. That's a great boon.

I would not plant dwarf fruit trees. I would go with full sized only.

Ryan Simon wrote:.....no HOA but city laws about lawncare still apply, ....

Not really an equivalent situation since we are very rural, but the notion of "good fences make good neighbors" still applies.  If the city allows for a fence and you don't already have one, I would think about this and plan accordingly.  What I mean with this is that, if you don't plan on the fence keeping *in* animals (pets, chickens, other livestock, etc.), then the fence could be a more decorative 'white picket' type of thing.  The advantage here is that a 'sightly' picket fence will draw a lot less attention to what is growing in your yard such as an 'un-sightly' hugel....or fruit bramble.....or sunchoke stand....or...or....  None of these are unsightly to me, but neighbors....who in a suburban setting can change rapidly in both attitude and physically in moving in and moving out.....can be a real fly in the ointment of such endeavors.  I suspect the city would be less inclined to deliver ordinance notices for situations that are more hidden.  If you are planning for animals, I would go with the most 'city-approved' chain-link fence that you can tolerate looking at....and probably plant things to grow over or on it if it's just too ugly.

Yes....clay....we have thick deep clay.  But rather quickly with compost and water you can begin to develop soil that supports crop plants and other things.  There are worse things to try to grow plants in other than clay and clay holds water better during drought periods.  As an aside with clay, it has been a bit of an impediment to good apple and other fruit tree growth, so best here to consult with locals about tree varieties that grow well in your region and soil  Finally, as you are getting started....plan for where the sun is and where the shade falls...both in mid-summer and winter....since you will want to plant most of your garden annuals in full sun.  

Non garden advice:  We planted so many trees that we are now having trouble locating a good exposure of the house for active or passive solar energy.  If you have not considered how amazingly solar could impact your future, please consider--especially as the price, technology, and the plug-n-play aspect of that technology has improved IMMENSELY in the past 15 -20 years.

Good luck!

A big advantage of a low, open "picket" fence is, you're not excluding visitors of any species whom you DO want, either, I'd say?

Also, if things do get a little messy in front, behind a picket fence, you might have luck calling it a "cottage garden" which is a style that people at the city might recognize.

I really like the fence idea. Thank you, everyone.

If you haven’t already, ride around and scout productive yard trees in the area.  Stop and ask folks about them.  I do this and have never gotten a cold shoulder.  Talk to the county extension agent and ask about “bombproof” trees that just do well in the area no matter what.  They may be just a shill for big ag, they might be awesome, or something in between.  No way to tell until you chat them up.

Identify EVERYTHING on your property.  You may have some incredible stuff growing already.  This is much easier now than it was a decade ago with apps like I naturalist and google.  Be sure to cross reference if you are not sure.  A 5 or maybe even 10 year old persimmon around here looks like a sapling.  Cut it down and you just backed up quite a bit.

Most nut trees are a long term prospect.  If they do well in the area, I would plant 3-4 for the next generation then focus on trees with faster returns.  15+ years in, out of 50+fruit/nut  trees, mulberries and pears have been the only two that have produced enough to bother with preserving.  Several of the others have produced a yield, but couldn’t really call them a staple at this point.  Various bush/bramble berries have produced well on a shorter timeframe, but are labor intensive picking and require more maintenance to keep weeds at bay.

Off hand, if I was deciding what to do with 1.6 acres, I’d probably put the closest (zone 0-1) .25-.5 acre in veg, herbs, berries, mushrooms.  The rest I’d plant out in fruit/nut trees, paying close attention to final sizes and spacing.  60-70 ft spacing looks huge when you are planting a little nut sapling, but they will fill it over time.  Crowd them, and they will suffer.   Better to infill with nitrogen fixing trees that you harvest for

…livestock feed, firewood, etc.

If you are into dairy, 2 small dairy goats could graze your orchard if the trees are will protected.  I have found step in fiberglass posts with electric wire to work well for this purpose.  Keeping the trees in rows helps with electric setup, an occasional mowing if need be, and running a chicken (or other poultry) tractor around.  If you are not into dairy, a couple small goats/sheep in the spring could keep your orchard mowed all summer and give you a nice meat harvest in the fall.  

When it comes to poultry, Everything likes to eat chicken.  We have had 100% percent protection for 10 years plus, by insulating the bottom of the tractor with pvc, then electrifying the chicken wire.

We have a bit more land, but this pretty much mirrors what we have settled on after 20+ years.  Nothing like the excitement of starting out.  Best of luck to you!

I would have started wood-chip/mushroom gardening immediately.  Of course, I only figured that out after a lot of inquiry here on Permies.  The short version:  I don’t till at all, and I make my own topsoil from woodchips/mushroom mulch.  If you want more info, let me know and I will walk you down the rabbit hole.


Eric

Another thought, not so much for the OP, but for anyone building on a lot, or any parcel of land—I would have purchased a tractor either at the time I purchased the land or maybe even before.  There were so many times during construction (9 months) that I wished I had a tractor with a loader, box blade, rough cutter, maybe grader blade (which was a necessity later anyway).

Just a thought,



Eric

Lots of good suggestions here.
I do agree with the make a plan approach. The rule of 5 P's: Proper planning prevents poor production.
That said, you should probably get started on growing some food, especially if the climate/region is new to you, or simply growing food is new to you. It can take a couple of years to figure out the basics of what grows well in your area, what pests and predators threaten your food plot, what amendments your soil needs, etc.

I would suggest a small setup for next year. Maybe a couple of raised beds, or even a bunch of containers that can easily be relocated if needed. It doesn't need to be a huge production area. It's more like a small laboratory.
Vist the local farmer's markets or food co-op to get local produce and seeds. (The seeds are inside the produce you buy.) That should get you a decent idea of what other growers in your area are producing well.

Thought you all would be interested in what we have done so far.

We're adding dirt to our 4 30 foot x 3 foot hugels we spent the day building. We knocked down some trees we identified and saw they were slowly dying. Plus found TONS of already decomposing wood laying around in the woods. Over the years, we'll be slowly increasing their heights too. Maybe then it won't bother the neighbors.

We cleared out some  of a small holly grove. It will be replaced with native edible berry bushes. Hopefully enough for us and the wee beasties that venture around. There's a native plant nursery a few minutes down the road for us to source from. It's pretty cool.

From this place, we're also getting some pawpaws. My husband is just finishing his week vacation and had other plans, else we would be foraging in the various state parks for some fruit to plant instead.

Next spring, we'll be getting chickens. We were going to do it now, but I don't want the chicken's first outdoor season to be winter. We'll get them in the spring and hopefully have some good food growing for them when we move them to the coop we'll be building. Our goal is to eventually grow what they need.

We'll be also inoculating for mushrooms in spring. I'm not confident in foraging mushrooms yet, but we found a massive amount while felling the trees.

Finally, a huge surprise. My husband, who loves his job, looks at me and says "I could do this for the rest of my life." This little sample of permie life went from a "silly idea" to "the best thing we've ever done as a family."

Edit: I forgot to mention we're also driving a well so there's water close to the chickens.