Sloped or flat land for a permaculture market garden?

Lately i have been thinking about making a living from permaculture based agriculture (i come from a totally different profession),
and it seems to me that a vegetable market garden has the lowest entry barrier.
(vegetables produce fast and can't kick you in your face)

So when looking for land one of the major questions is wheter to buy
sloped land or flat land. On the long term i fancy perennials(food forrest) and ponds,
so if you have a remark with this context i am also happy to hear it.

I am trying to brainstorm here, i don't expect a definite answer.

The location will be somewhere in croatia, so here is what applies to
most potential properties i have looked at:
There is mostly either steepish slope (15%-25%) or its perfectly flat.
I am assuming a southern, or at least south-west or south-east slope.
Climate is temperate with an evelation of around 150-400 metres.
Rainfall is plenty (more than 500mm).

Pros of slope:
- warms up faster in the winter due to better sun angle
- more oppurtunity for gravity fed irrigation
- drainage can be achieved easily
- crops less like to shade each other out

Cons of slope:
- Creating beds propably needs creating terraces first.
- Soil might get washed away, or be rather thin in the first place

Pros of flat land:
- less work to get a market garden established
- probably deeper soil / less erosion


Cons of flat land:
- Drainage harder to achieve
- Might be a frost pocket, also unfavourable sun-angle in the winter
- tall crops might shade each other
- less pressure for gravitiy fed irrigation

I was not sure how to judge slope in terms of logistics, when moving produce,compost etc.,
because i think it depends on the design whether slope is a liability or an asset when it comes to logistics,
however i cannot think of a design where you have less work with moving stuff when you are on
a slope as compared to flat land, but gut feeling says it should be possible.
Maybe someone smarter than me has any design ideas on this point?

So did i miss anything?

Are some of the assumtions incorrect/incomplete or apply only in certain circumstances?

Remember the context is a market garden, so time-efficency is more important than on a homestead.

I am looking forward to you input/feedback thank you a lot!

What's the summer weather like? It's very hard to water on a slope even a very slight slope makes water want to run off rather than sink in.  I have a drop of  1 in 50 and that is enough to throw the water off the beds.

None of the fields I have worked on are truly flat but neither are they very steep, if the hill is uniformly angled it doesn't seem to really matter much but if it looks more like a screwed up tissue then it starts to make it hard. Think as well where you will put buildings/pollytunnels they all need flat land (or flattened land)
It's always going to be harder to move things around on a slope, your carts will want to slide back down again as soon as you turn your back and going across the slope can be a hazard if it is steep.


In my opinion a 15% slope is to much for a market garden to be easy it would need terracing and that's a massive amount of work assuming you are even allowed to do so. and even then the paths up to the terraces would be lethal to push/pull things up and down without some form of rope system. (remember things like compost and cabbages are HEAVY)

My entire property is sloped and while I love it for the privacy, it can make things difficult. For me that was the trade-off, do you want privacy or do you want  flat. Around here, prime farmland is flat, so purchasing that land is more expensive. We are in a geologic slide area, as many hilly areas are, so our soil is 1/3 rock. I know nothing about the geology of Croatia, but it's something to keep in mind. I find sloped land more suitable for animals.

All of croatia is really humid, here are some examplary cities around the area i am interested in.

The coastal regions have even more rain on average (almost double), but arable land
is really sparse and expensive there. (factor 50-100 times more expensive).

Skandi Rogers wrote:What's the summer weather like?
if the hill is uniformly angled it doesn't seem to really matter much but if it looks more like a screwed up tissue then it starts to make it hard.

Unfortunately "screwed tissue" is what most of the properties i looked at are.
But this also means that there are some flatter areas embedded between steeper areas,
so making terraces is easier, right?
Regarding building the terraces, i have a close friend with a backhoe, who can help me out with me paying
just for the running cost of the machine. But only when he has no other work to do.

A rope system you say? well that really would complicate things...
For the market garden i need a delivery vehicle anyway, so maybe a smart design could incoorporate that
into the actual harvesting on-site. But then again the roads would have to be slightly off-countour
to work best, and then the roads would cross the growing beds...really challenging at least.

Nice site you found there. Here's my rainfall, we don't get as hot so there's not much evaporation to contend with but I need to water in May and sometimes in June but not generally more than once or twice the rest of the summer. In general I only water seedlings, strawberries and water hogs like radishes, perennials never get watered they just don't need it.

I get slightly more water than those examples and we have lower temperatures so I would expect you to need to water a little more than I do.

Graphs stolen from here

Skandi Rogers wrote:
I get slightly more water than those examples and we have lower temperatures so I would expect you to need to water a little more than I do.

Usually July/August are the hottest months here, and also they have the least percipitation.

Now if i build swales and ponds upslope and dimension them right,
the spring rains should provide enough water for irrigation during the summer.

As you pointed out on sloped land this requires terraces to work.

On the risk of turning the discussion on terrace-building i want to throw in the question
on how the terraces should look like in the market garden setting:
One terrace for every bed, or bigger terraces to accomodate several beds?

Small terraces are easier to build. On 15% a log will do for a 1m wide strip.
That could even feature-stack to use the wood as a walkway, feed the soil and hold the soil back in the terrace .

Sebastian Köln wrote:Small terraces are easier to build. On 15% a log will do for a 1m wide strip.
That could even feature-stack to use the wood as a walkway, feed the soil and hold the soil back in the terrace .

I think i would still need a dedicated walkway next to the log, as it will decay over time.
Also wet/decaying logs are slippery in my memory ;-)
Still i like the idea building smaller terraces with logs in general,
but for getting 1000m² of market garden it would require 1 km of logs.

I find I have to get to both sides of the bed even if it is just to put my foot there to straddle the bed while harvesting/sowing. From a gardening point of view wider terraces will be better, BUT can you make them? they will need a deeper depth of soil to cut into if it's rock close to the surface they won't be possible.
I've seen some lovely pictures of beds in terraces though I don't think the slope was as steep so it can certainly be done, it's probably just not optimal.

Skandi Rogers wrote:I find I have to get to both sides of the bed even if it is just to put my foot there to straddle the bed while harvesting/sowing. From a gardening point of view wider terraces will be better, BUT can you make them? they will need a deeper depth of soil to cut into if it's rock close to the surface they won't be possible.

I think you are right.
So terraces should be as wide as reasonably possible.

After reading the thread https://permies.com/t/26356/Slope-Flat-Permaculture-Planning-Pro
and rewatching a krameterhof-video
it seems to me that i just want to justify for myself that a permaculture market garden on a slope is a good idea,
because a lot of other fancy things (like ponds) seems to work so munch nicer on slope.

But still i want to objectively continue this discussion, thank you for your replies so far!

i don’t know how much of your future food forest plantings will be fruit trees, or how much of a danger late frosts are in the areas you’re considering, but if fruit trees are to be a major part of the planting, a south-facing hillside that warms up early may not be a positive feature. orchards of early-flowering fruits (which can include apples, pears, and stone fruits among others) are often better off (for our purposes) on somewhat north-facing slopes where the soil warms up later, so flowering can avoid the last late frosts.

It seems that so far the flat land is better than a slope of around 15%.
But still perfectly flat land has some disadvantages.

So how steep should land be at least to have gravity based irrigation and no frost pockets?
How steep can it be to not require terraces for market gardening?

greg mosser wrote:i don’t know how much of your future food forest plantings will be fruit trees, or how much of a danger late frosts are in the areas you’re considering, but if fruit trees are to be a major part of the planting, a south-facing hillside that warms up early may not be a positive feature. orchards of early-flowering fruits (which can include apples, pears, and stone fruits among others) are often better off (for our purposes) on somewhat north-facing slopes where the soil warms up later, so flowering can avoid the last late frosts.

Thank you very munch greg. It is kind of embarassing that i spent almost 2 years reseaching permaculture andnot thinking of this issue.
I probably did read it somewhere, but forgot. So i read more about south facing slopes
the last two days and found a remediation strategy in another thread ( https://permies.com/t/159308/Late-Frost-Protection ):

Johannes Schwarz wrote:
- terracing. Terraces improve not only water retention but their level surface also decreases the angle to the winter/spring sun, thus the ground does not warm up as quickly. Snow stays visibly longer which proofs the point. One point with stone terracing though - as in my case - the stone wall retains heat which is great in cool summer nights and it protects from cool winds but that of course counters the desired delay of the ground warming up in the spring as well.
- mulching? Can mulch in a certain thickness isolate not only the ground against freezing but also from warming up too much? Anyone have experience with that?

So again we talk terraces.


@ Skandi Rogers :
In another thread about a 20% slope https://permies.com/t/120024/Potential-homestead-slope-Kitchen-garden
when asked wheter a kitchen garden is possible you wrote:

Skandi Rogers wrote:
Yes that slope is not a deal breaker, there would be no need to terrace.

Did you change your mind on the need of terrace on slope, or is this
because of the different context (kitchen garden vs. market garden)?

Thanks again a lot to all of you!

R. Han wrote:
I think i would still need a dedicated walkway next to the log, as it will decay over time.
Also wet/decaying logs are slippery in my memory ;-)
Still i like the idea building smaller terraces with logs in general,
but for getting 1000m² of market garden it would require 1 km of logs.

I regularly walk over logs in various stages of decay. Worst case so far has been the log being so spongy that it just collapses.
Assuming 10m per tree, that is 100 trees. Here I can remove about one tree every 5m, because the forest is far too dense. So a 50m by 50m area would provide the trees needed. By the time the logs have rotten, the next trees can be harvested.

Some thoughts from a fella who lives where level land is rare.

If you're buying sloped land to save money then the cost of terracing would make the level land cheaper...... I think!

I would put orchards on a slope, but not so steep that operating machinery is dangerous.

Here most farm homes and almost all barns are on the worst slopes. For one with the home you get a view and can observe better what's going on. With the barn on a slope makes it easy to access both levels and be able to drive out. It's a lot easier to unload hay when you can drive into the 2nd level.

Cattle here are usually grazed on the slopes, steep slopes included.

Don't even consider a tractor with a narrow front axle. I haven't seen one of those here for many years. I guess they've all rolled over and are still there in that gully.

I still see acres of corn growing on some very steep land. They always plow sideways to the hill to cut down on erosion.

Good luck with all your endeavors.

edit to read farm homes

Just to make sure we are on the same page:

When i say 15% slope it means a 15 units elevation change for a horizontal traverse of 100 units.

This is very natural for as every aspect of my life (for example road signs) defines it that way.

But it seems there are people who refer to a 90° slope als 100%,
see video in this thread https://permies.com/t/149598/earthworks-property.

So i just wanted to make sure whether the previous posters have the same definition of slope as i do.

R. Han wrote:

@ Skandi Rogers :
In another thread about a 20% slope https://permies.com/t/120024/Potential-homestead-slope-Kitchen-garden
when asked wheter a kitchen garden is possible you wrote:

My post is a bit confusing but yes I think I was thinking about private use, I have had kitchen gardens on about 10% slope they grow fine but it makes all logistics harder. I may also have been half thinking about animals as well since the post talks about both. Making money and growing are two totally different things as I've found out several times. squeezing in those extra cauliflowers wherever there is room sounds great until it comes to harvest time and you have to search all over a 4 acre field to check every one to see if they are ready, and then carry them out of the field in 3's because you didn't leave space to get a wheelbarrow in, picking 50 cauliflowers suddenly goes from a 10 minutes job walking 15m to a couple of km walk and 40minutes of your time. growing just for myself I don't mind a bit of difficult access and hill walking, but I get grumpy when I need to pick 100 of something and have to go up and down a mountain

Skandi Rogers wrote: search all over a 4 acre field to check every one to see if they are ready

Where my mindset is right now, i have this picture of a lot of small one-crop rows/beds when thinking about a market garden.

The answers until now read to me, that intensive market gardening on a slope would
require terraces to prevent erosion.

Now let me rephrase my question.

Assuming terraces would already be in place or could just come into existance in any shape the permaculture designer sees fit for the context:

Would you prefer a terraced slope or flat land for a market garden?

If it were me, I would get flatish land. I live in a rolling foothill terain, with no actual mountatins around. My place is essentially a bowl. With a pond shared with the neighbors at the bottom. From the top of the property, to the bottom, roughly 280 feet in length, the place drops 20 feet in elevation. It is sortof in a couple of terraces, but nowhere is it actually flat. There is only one area where my wagon is in danger of tipping over, but I would not want to work on any land that is steeper.

What if you break a leg? How will you make it down the numberous steep terraces.When I overwork myself, I have ballance issues. Ugh! Again, bad news, even here. Remember that as you age, that cheap land could become a curse.

Good luck!

Is the flat land you ate talking about valley land surrounded by hills,  or in a wide plain?

Gardening in a plain is easier than anywhere else,  in my opinion.  No frost pockets, not much worry about runoff or hill shadows.

I worked in a terraced garden one summer, and it is very tiring carrying tools and things up and down.

There seems to be some clear advantages of the flat land, so i would
like to discuss one advantage of the sloped land:


How munch can you push a market garden season (in a temperate climate) when you are on a south facing slope as compared to a flat land?

I mean, having the same crops avaibable earlier in the season and also later in the season than your typical competitor
on the flat land should be an advantage that offsets the initial costs of terracing,
but how significant is it? Anybody has some gut feeling about this, or even hard data?

Joylynn Hardesty wrote: Remember that as you age, that cheap land could become a curse.

Definetly a point to consider...so at least Zone 1 should be a big terrace.

I really hope i will not end up as a lone homesteader regardless of the land type.
To me it seems we will see a considerable "back to the land" movement in the decades to come,
with some restoration of the many-generations-homestead lifestyle.

That said, the focus is still a market garden and not homestead, so let's assume able-bodied
workers are available. Still i appreciate your input for the broader discussion.

Mk Neal wrote:Is the flat land you ate talking about valley land surrounded by hills,  or in a wide plain?

Oh croatia has both of it:


Those north-eastern parts are mostly flat plains, while the south-eastern and coastal parts are karst mountains.
As i originate from the coast, i feel more connected to those smaller plains in between the karst mountains,
however i do not rule out the further away locations.
Anyway in order to be usefull for others, i would like this thread not to focus too munch on my specific situation.

Remember as well that access to markets is more important than if the land is flat or not.

I suppose the ideal spot would be a small hill where you have both the south slope and the west slope and a bit of flat land at the bottom!

One bad thing about flat land in large plains is wind. wind will set your season back several weeks.

Croatia is not structured like the USA, you cannot drive for hours without encountering cities,
so markets are usually within reach. However the largest market by far is the capital city (Zagreb),
it has over one quarter of the total population and certainly the most purchasing power,
so i look at properties wihtin 2 hours of Zagreb.

I think 2 hours is ok-ish to drive back an forth once a week to either deliver CSA or go to a farmers market.

R. Han wrote:

Skandi Rogers wrote:I find I have to get to both sides of the bed even if it is just to put my foot there to straddle the bed while harvesting/sowing. From a gardening point of view wider terraces will be better, BUT can you make them? they will need a deeper depth of soil to cut into if it's rock close to the surface they won't be possible.

I think you are right.
So terraces should be as wide as reasonably possible.

Regarding the width of the terrace, i recently read the chapter on it in the Holzers Permaculture book.

There he states that the 5 meter wide terraces are easier workable than the 10 meter wide ones.
We know that they are definetly easier to build, but he was specifically adressing the work during cultivation, not the actual building,
no translation error here, i read the german edition.

Unfortunately he does not explain (or i forgot) why exactly the narrower terrace is easier to cultivate.
This conflicts with the conclusion we had that the wieder terrace is easier to cultivate?

Maybe it has to do with the use case. He primarily plant terraces for grain and other plants that are harvested once and all at the same time,
while using the terrace as acces-way for the machinery, while the market garden use case has constant manual work on the terraces.

Any thoughts on this?