filtering for awesome matches for deep roots and ant village

I just wrote this for ant village:

This offer was originally for "pod people" (the people that have kept up with all of my podcasts). Later we expanded that to include people that have spent at least four months in the permaculture bootcamp. There has been some talk of some alternatives, but nothing solid yet. There has even been talk that we should change things to be only for people that make it through the bootcamp. The key is that this community is limited to the people that share our values.

We've had some pod people here that turned out to not be a good fit.  

We've had some people join the bootcamp and within days we learned that they were not a good fit.  

We've had some people join the bootcamp and it took months until we learned that they were not a good fit.  

People are so very human.  :)

There have been some ideas where people need to read BWB and thorns.

There is the standing 200 podcast rule.

There is getting in via the bootcamp.

Just now I hear a suggestion of two weeks in the bootcamp as a minimum.  Another suggestion was that 100 podcasts counts as a week in the bootcamp.

I think PEP1 would have some value.  

Maybe we need a points system.  But maybe we still need a bare minimum of a week in the bootcamp?  



I know that this is too vague and too weird ...  but I just kinda need to get the conversation started.

I talked to several people ...

What about this as a filter:    BB40 + 1 week in the bootcamp (complete with group approval)

??

paul wheaton wrote:Maybe we need a points system.  But maybe we still need a bare minimum of a week in the bootcamp?

I talked to several people ...
What about this as a filter:    BB40 + 1 week in the bootcamp (complete with group approval)??

I think these both have merit,  leaning towards points over BB40, since (I think) it encompasses more of the ethos of Permies/Paul Wheaton/Wheaton Labs.
The bootcamp part is probably essential. Like you said it could take a week, it could be a month...

"I can't tell you what pornography is, but I know it when I see it."
There's a lot to learn from in person interactions in situations that you couldn't possibly think to ask about in a questionnaire/application.
The community should have a voice (yeah the S-word, ooh! is it double edged?) They'll be privy to/subject to situations that you will never be (you can't be two places at once, they are on their best behavior around YOU, etc...)
You don't want/need any bad apples spoiling the community.

Only good apples. Peaches, cherries, and plums might be okay too, and the sloths and orangutans...


not the sinful sloths though, they're bad apples.

The current rule about 200 podcasts has led to some problems:

  - some people say they have, but it turns out they have not

  - some people authentically listen to 200 ...   at double speed ...  and "listen" might be a euphamism

  - some people have authentically listened to 200 (or all!), but they are not a fit


It seems that with a week in the bootcamp we get a really good idea of whether we like them.  And they get to learn whether they like us.  And it cannot be faked.

BB40 cannot be faked.  And it paints a picture of whether this person will be an achiever.

I see your point on BB40.
The particular BBs chosen also paint a picture, in a way that "podcasts listened to" (if you even know which ones) does not, since they can disagree with you on the topic.
If they invest the time in completing a BB, they "agree" that it is a "good idea" and has value to them.

I think that with BB40 they have a good understanding of our values.  And that's a critical piece - I want people to be here with similar values.  We have had some people come and their values were not aligned - so rather than adopt these values, they were very intent on telling me how I need to drop my values and adopt their values instead.  Ug.

I like the BBsomething as an entry hurdle, I might go lower on the number.  That said, I might go higher on the Boot camp commitment, like two weeks.

I do think requiring a person show they have some ability to get things done could really help weed out dreamers who *think* they've got big plans but are more likely to need rescuing when it snows.

I first thought of BB20 - but that is just getting started.  And it could be heavy on the easiest BBs.  Whereas BB40 seems like a much stronger metric.

I'm thinking that while we will learn more about a person with two weeks in the bootcamp, it won't be much more than what we learn in one week.  

I like the idea of making it very, very, very clear that this community is for "our people" and not open to the permies.  

BBs really don't do much for your community building other than illustrate some of the values and prove they can do a little work.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be a good fit for Wheaton Labs, even though I have lots of BBs and intend to get quite a few more.

I have listened to a few of the podcasts and it seems that I generally agree with more than a few of your viewpoints, and quickly found that I disagreed or had divergent views on others. So the pod requirement makes some sense, but I agree it seems to be hard to enforce.

I would write a quiz to check if they actually had listened to a random sample, but then I'm a classroom educator.

I think the Bootcamp is your best testing ground for long-term fits. It's similar to an apprenticeship in many ways, and apprenticeships are very good ways to learn a program or way of doing things.

Maybe an interview with some hard direct questions?

I don't expect you will ever be able to select with 100% accuracy who will be a good long term fit, because people change. Probably the experiences you provide will change people! People also learn about themselves through these kinds of programs and life experiences. Some will find out through the process that it is not what they really want.

Unfortunately the flip side will be harder to get... people that didn't think they would be interested but through trying it out find out that it is their true calling.

Actually, I want to revise what I said about BBs.

I think some aspects of BBs might show more than others.

For example: Nest, Commerce, and Community badges will probably show a LOT more about how a person might fit into a community than for example Dimensional Woodworking or Metalworking.

I understand judging someone's ability to achieve... but without context I personally can't see that as a major problem, as most people excel at some things and don't at others, and almost everyone can find a niche within a community.

Instead of a vague "200 podcasts" might it be better to require them to listen to 30 particular podcasts that you think do a great job of conveying what the place is all about?  Otherwise they may completely miss the ones that are really meaty while lapping up the "easier to hear" ones...

Mike Haasl wrote:Instead of a vague "200 podcasts" might it be better to require them to listen to 30 particular podcasts that you think do a great job of conveying what the place is all about?  Otherwise they may completely miss the ones that are really meaty while lapping up the "easier to hear" ones...

Suppose we do that - then we have this problem:

 - some people say they have, but it turns out they have not

 - some people authentically listen to (the 30) ...   at double speed ...  and "listen" might be a euphamism

 - some people have authentically listened to (the 30) (or all!), but they are not a fit

I kinda think a path might be:

      For you to learn about us:

           - listen to at least 200 podcasts

           - read BWB and thorns

     For us to learn about you:

           - BB40

           - one week in the bootcamp

And it might be wise for a person to learn about us, because if you learn about us and decide it is a fit, then you will appreciate that there are others that might come and are NOT a fit, and we send them down the road.  And if you don't take the time to understand this, then it might be YOU and waste years of your life.  

So I think it is all required, but a person could just say the listened to the podcasts and read the books, but they didn't.  So that could be a big problem later.

But the core of all this is:  this is not an open community.  It is for people that have done all these things and have decided that they want to be part of this project.  

I made a new thread that is relevant:  residents can be expelled at any time - why would anybody subject themselves to that?

As usual, I have very little idea of what I am talking about, but I do think I see a certain rigidity of thought.  What not create more tan one possible path?

John F Dean wrote: a certain rigidity of thought.

 

Trying to optimize our systems.

What not create more tan one possible path?

I think there would be two paths:

   - what is suggested above

   - the purely bootcamp path

I know that julia (who lives here now) read BWB and thorns.  And then we talked about each book at length and I am convinced that she did read them.  

Maybe everybody needs to read BWB and thorns.  And then choose one of these recipes:

   - BB40 + one week in the bootcamp

   - two weeks in the bootcamp
   
And we just drop the whole podcasts thing.

??

That sounds like a pretty good approach.  A third one might be to select 10 particular podcasts that you think are important and have them just listen to those to get a feel for the WL system.

Mike Haasl wrote:That sounds like a pretty good approach.  A third one might be to select 10 particular podcasts that you think are important and have them just listen to those to get a feel for the WL system.

Do you have a dozen (or so) you would like to suggest?

I don't listen to them, sorry :(

I am thinking of starting a new thread with this as the first post

Being a resident here was originally for "pod people" (the people that kept up with all of my podcasts). Later we expanded that to include people that have spent at least four months in the permaculture bootcamp.

Then I wrote the better world book (my values), and the thorns draft book (my attempts at community).  And I developed the SKIP program - a way to verify that somebody is "worthy."

After hundreds of conversations (with people familiar with all this stuff) about how to filter for a great community, by our values, we came up with this:

  - everybody needs to read BWB and thorns

  - pick one:

       - BB40 + one week in the bootcamp

       - three weeks in the bootcamp

You can still learn a lot about us through the podcasts if you like, but it is no longer a requirement.

During your time in the bootcamp, we will confirm that you have read the books.



The key to all this is that you NEED to know what our values are.  See if you are a match for these values.  After all, this arrangement can be terminated by either party at any time.  Some general responses:

   - that's crazy
           (clearly you are not a fit)

   - who would ever agree to something where they could get kicked out?
           (clearly you are not a fit)
               
   - this all makes sense; I am confident that I would not be kicked out; I especially like knowing about the quality of my neighbors
           (potential fit)



I need to know that your values are the same or similar enough. And you need to know too!

Maybe in a few hours.  Anybody have any further thoughts?

paul wheaton wrote:

Mike Haasl wrote:That sounds like a pretty good approach.  A third one might be to select 10 particular podcasts that you think are important and have them just listen to those to get a feel for the WL system.

Do you have a dozen (or so) you would like to suggest?

I could see saying "any ten podcasts."

That way they have to hear you talk to people and decide whether that sounds delightful or not.

It also gives some random talky points and context.

We do have some podcasts that are sort of "the building codes for the lab".  Maybe those?