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plumbing

Burying the water line

Posts: 130

Location: Coastal Maine

posted 3 years ago

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I'm considering trying to bury the water line at the camp.
Problem is, it's on the coast of Maine and my soil depth runs between 2 and 8 inches, below that, it's solid granite ledge.
Frost line in dirt here is near 4 feet.

Question is, does the frost penetrate ledge to the same depth as in dirt? 'Cuz I'm sure not going to dig a 100 foot long trench four feet deep!

Any folks in the "cold" belt have input?

Thanks,
Randy

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posted 3 years ago

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When I buried my Water line in northern MN, I went the full depth ......yes, we had some excitingly large rocks.

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Anne Miller

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Randy said, "Question is, does the frost penetrate ledge to the same depth as in dirt? 'Cuz I'm sure not going to dig a 100 foot long trench four feet deep!

If I were doing this I would use the tube insulation for pipes buried as deep as possible then cover the area where it is not possible to get below the frost line with hay bales.

Those two thing will probably give all the added protection needed.

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Yeah, that's a toughie. If you can't dig down, I think you have to add insulation above. Either 4' of dirt or something more insulative. The other concern is how well the rock transfers heat/cold. If you tuck the line under hay bales but the frozen rock it's sitting on just sneaks the frost under the arrangement, you're still screwed. I guess I'd ask around at the local feed store, cafe or other places where farmers or homesteaders hang out.

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Anne Miller

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posted 3 years ago

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It may depend on how cold it gets.

I know Maine gets cold and stays cold.

Our land is mostly caliche with rock.

We recently had to dig up our waterline at the wellhead due to a water leak at the timer that supplies the water for the deer tank.

After the leak was fixed we temporarily used whatever was handy as insulation, things like old clothes.

This worked for below freezing.

We then wrapped the lines with some fiberglass insulation, threw the old clothes back in, and covered with some dirt maybe about 3".

This has worked for -07 degrees.

I have always found this post about using sheep manure and hay intriguing:

Travis said, "Sheep manure will not break down.

I use this around my pipes buried underground so they do not freeze. Sheep manure by its nature has a lot of hay mixed in with those convenient-to-work-with pellets!

BTW, Travis is also in Maine.

https://permies.com/t/101428/Insulating-underground-perimeter-greenhouse-materials#836204

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John Weiland

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Randy, I just gotta think there is a local county extension agent, .... if not nearby neighbors,......who could help you answer this very site-specific question. Certainly parts of Maine could get cold enough for you to make sure water line installation is done right. Even though you are coastal, I don't think it's worth gambling on frozen pipes for water that you deem necessary to have running in winter. A county extension agent should have enough knowledge about soil structure and stratification with rock, along with local techniques on how to get water lines below frost depth, to get you where you need to be in your design and plans. Take it from someone who's had to deal with my own and other's mistakes on buried water lines not sufficiently protected that you want this done right so that you don't have to dig up in the near future to repair/replace an inadequate job. Good luck!

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Could your line be pressurized on demand, and then be quickly depressured and gravity drained to a lower non-freezing location? It would be a different design, but I think with some insulation it could work. Beware of low spots in the line that will hold enough water to freeze and block the line.

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Is this a permanent, summer or seasonal cabin? If only used in summer, I would skip the dig, and simply run it through a larger pipe so that it is easily pulled/serviced if necessary, and drain it when shutting down for the season. This also protects it from the nibblers who love to munch through water lines in times of limited access to water.

Heat tape is another option for less than depth water lines; perhaps not permie friendly, as it would need continuous power through out the cold months (a 100% guaranteed source of power); perhaps a solar option, but then how to keep the batteries from freezing...

Otherwise, speak with the locals and find out how they handle this...even the local hardware store or plumbing dude should be able to provide the most common solutions suitable to your area.

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Randy Butler

Posts: 130

Location: Coastal Maine

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Really appreciate everyone's input. I've not yet contacted the local Co-op, but that's a great lead.
To answer some of the questions, and/or clarify my situation:
Yes, this is a seasonal cottage. And we do currently drain everything for the winter. It would be really nice to avoid that chore.
The pipe runs about 100 feet from the well with half of it running under the middle of the gravel driveway. Not conducive to piling 4 feet of insulation over it!
Cellar wall penetration is only a foot below grade ('cuz that's where the bedrock starts). And it's only a crawlspace on that end.
As for heat tape - definitely not "green", but since we may not go there for a month or more when it's really cold, I can't know for certain if the place has power. Lot's of really tall red spruce trees with widespread but very shallow root systems on most of the property. Power outages are not quite guaranteed, but pretty likely - three so far this winter (2021/2022) with broken lines tangles under 16" diameter downed trees.
Again - thanks folks for all the suggestions. What a great resource!
Randy

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Randy Butler wrote:
Yes, this is a seasonal cottage. And we do currently drain everything for the winter. It would be really nice to avoid that chore.

Well, given that it is Maine, I think that chore is a fact of life. Easier than digging 4 feet down into bedrock. And when you are not in the house for months, it's best to have the water shut off and pipes drained. What if you had the water attached all winter while you're not there. Couldn't the taps in the unheated kitchen and bathroom freeze and break? Then, in spring unlimited water could flow out of the broken pipes.

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Glenn Tracy

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posted 2 months ago

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Randy did you look into a heat line you tape to the water line with aluminum poly tape

Anne Miller

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Welcome to the forum, Glenn!

And yes, it would be great to hear back from Randy as to how he solved this problem since it has been 3 years.

Invasive plants are Earth's way of insisting we notice her medicines. Stephen Herrod Buhner
Everyone learns what works by learning what doesn't work. Stephen Herrod Buhner

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Hi Randy,

Yeah, this is quite a tough dilemma. I agree with most of what other posters have already said, but if I were in your shoes, I think I would do the following. Warning: this is probably not cheap and requires some work.

Firstly, as Anne already me, I would try to find some insulated pipe or find some way to insulate regular pipe. Insulation itself will help, but it will only postpone freezing if the water isn’t moving on a regular basis, so with that in mind, I would also go with step two.

Step two includes burying as deep as possible and then piling a large amount of dirt on top for added insulation. If 4 feet is the standard, I might think about piling on 5 feet and make sure that the pile is broad. The reason is twofold. Firstly, there will be settling, so that 5 feet probably won’t stay at 5 feet. Also, since this added “insulation” protrudes up into the cold, winter air, as opposed to being tucked down below grade, it is more likely to freeze.

I know this is a real challenge, but wish you luck.

Eric

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Douglas Alpenstock

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Eric Hanson wrote:Step two includes burying as deep as possible and then piling a large amount of dirt on top for added insulation. If 4 feet is the standard, I might think about piling on 5 feet and make sure that the pile is broad. The reason is twofold. Firstly, there will be settling, so that 5 feet probably won’t stay at 5 feet. Also, since this added “insulation” protrudes up into the cold, winter air, as opposed to being tucked down below grade, it is more likely to freeze.

A moisture barrier buried under the top surface would increase the insulation value -- otherwise it's a hugel.

A second "dry" line buried alongside would allow warm water to be pumped through if needed, to thaw the main line.

Randy Butler

Posts: 130

Location: Coastal Maine

posted 2 months ago

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Seems that life gets in the way of intended progress far too often!
Storm damage to the property in January 2024 destroyed the sequence of my to-do list.
And with even more experience, the power reliability has been proved to be - shall we say - variable?

So draining the entire system is going to have to be the answer until I can find someone to jackhammer a deep trench, 100 feet long.
And I'd rather not have to mortgage the children to pay for it!

Much appreciate all the input.

John Weiland

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Randy, This rockiness is not something we have to deal with near the Minnesota-North Dakota border, so the technology right now is to use underground 'boring' technology to move conduit or water pipe directly through the soil without trenching. I'm curious since there must be some sort of standard trenching/boring approach in your region for higher-cost projects: What is done there normally?.....Large scale backhoe rock and soil removal to install water and drainage pipe? Again, just curious....Thanks!

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Randy Butler

Posts: 130

Location: Coastal Maine

posted 2 months ago

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IF one has money to burn, what I have seen done is excavate dirt down to bedrock, then hydraulic hammer (excavator mounted) to break up the ledge.
Another pass with excavator bucket to clear the broken rock. Repeat as needed to obtain desired depth.

When I had part of my cellar put in, they brought in a heavy skidsteer with 50 ton hydraulic jackhammer.
The first day, he was shearing off chunks about 3x4 foot square. Some pieces were larger.
The depth was determined by wherever the grain of the rock ran.
By the time he got into the harder stuff, he could break off pieces 3x4 inches maximum. Then he broke the hydraulic hammer.
He stopped and that's what defined the edge of the cellar vs crawlspace!

So yes, there is a way to "handle" the problem here, but for most it is cost prohibitive.
The frost line was 4 feet or more when I was a kid up here (sometimes a week or more below 0 F).
But today, the cold isn't as deep or prolonged as it used to be. I'd still shoot for 48", were I to pursue it.

Anne Miller

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What about just having the local dirt company bring in loads of dirt?

What about wood chips on top of some dirt to help with costs.

Are there no sheep farmers for the manure trick or other sources of manure?

Invasive plants are Earth's way of insisting we notice her medicines. Stephen Herrod Buhner
Everyone learns what works by learning what doesn't work. Stephen Herrod Buhner

Randy Butler

Posts: 130

Location: Coastal Maine

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Thanks for the options, Anne.
The reason the water line is currently running down the middle of the driveway is that the rest of the surroundings are heavily wooded.
The town requires permits to cut trees within 75 feet of the high tide mark.
That's pretty much the entire run, so moving the pipe location is exceedingly difficult.
But raising the elevation of the driveway would prevent use of that access way.
Unfortunately, I think I'm stuck with "drain everything and hope there are no low spots that might freeze."
And while I've been attempting to re-route all the interior piping to slope for gravity draining, most of the fittings have a little low spot in them somewhere.
Guess I'll add in a pneumatic connection to make blowing the lines out a bit easier.

Anne Miller

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posted 2 months ago

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Why the middle of the driveway? What is wrong with beside the driveway creating a berm?

Maybe some picture would help folks offer suggestions.

Invasive plants are Earth's way of insisting we notice her medicines. Stephen Herrod Buhner
Everyone learns what works by learning what doesn't work. Stephen Herrod Buhner

John C Daley

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posted 2 months ago

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Is this a main supply pipe?
If it is a feeder to somewhere else, would a continual movement of water through it prevent freezing?

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Randy Butler

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Location: Coastal Maine

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Middle of driveway is only place we can run the line without removing trees - and town requires special permits to remove flora in the 75' buffer.
I'll try to attach pic of the growth on either side of driveway.
Due to the buffering effect of the trees together, we don't remove any unless they are hazards, or blown down in storms.
Several neighbors thought they'd like a better view of the water and cut a handful - that small opening turned into nearly clearcut areas after just a couple winter storms.
The roots of the Red Spruce that comprise 80% or more of the foliage are very shallow and often intertwined.
When they topple, it tears up huge "pancakes" of dirt right down to bedrock.
And, of course, the main feed into the cellar is near the middle of the driveway. At least that spot is 18" below grade!
Thanks all for the input!

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Can you simply make it super easy to drain? Build an air tank(probably decent size) and valves into the system so you can blow it out quick and easy. Maybe bury it as a two layer pipe with the outer just acting as a conduit for the inner to you can easily replace it easily without digging it up. Blow or suck a bit of rag and rope thru and use the rope to pull the pipe to inside the pipe. Thus even if you screw up and don't get it drained properly worst case you are out a pipe and time to pull a new one thru. And if the inner one is PEX it will often take freezing without bursting. Not a perfect answer but will give 3X redundancy without great cost. The air compressor doesn't need to be big if the air tank it is filling is big enough. And used air tanks are something that can be salvaged often.

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Anne Miller

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posted 2 months ago

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I see plenty of room to place the water line and a berm along the side of the driveway without removing any trees.

Invasive plants are Earth's way of insisting we notice her medicines. Stephen Herrod Buhner
Everyone learns what works by learning what doesn't work. Stephen Herrod Buhner

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