• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Carla Burke
  • John F Dean
  • Nancy Reading
  • r ranson
  • Jay Angler
  • Pearl Sutton
stewards:
  • Leigh Tate
  • paul wheaton
  • Nicole Alderman
master gardeners:
  • Timothy Norton
  • Christopher Weeks
gardeners:
  • Saana Jalimauchi
  • Jeremy VanGelder
  • Ulla Bisgaard

Thoughts on flat earth

 
pollinator
Posts: 280
55
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hey gang,
so I have some thoughts on flat earth theory. Mainly, why are people so against it?
Where I'm coming from: I'm mostly agnostic about it. I certainly believe some aspects that tie into it but right down to the point of "the earth is flat", I just can't quite get on board. But I love hearing about it from people that are passionate about it. It's always cool to hear different sides. And usually flat earthers are into other cool stuff, permaculture, stick-it-to-the-man stuff. I'm pretty open to it, and I wouldn't consider myself an open-minded person about just anything. After all, "do not be so open-minded that your brains fall out".
But this brings me to my point-people can be super uptight about it! They make very rude comments and just in general act like the flat earther is stupid. It's just kind of weird to me. Akin to making fun of someone else's religion! I certainly don't think you have to agree with them or pretend to. In fact, it's even more fun if you don't because everyone gets to have a friendly debate.
To clarify, I'm not advocating for or against flat earth. Just advocating for being a good hooman.
Also this is not in support of those flat earthers that have to bring it up in every other sentence, talk about it with people who have been nice about not wanting to talk about it, never shutting up about it...generally being obnoxious.
This has just been secondhand/observational experience. I don't talk flat earth with round earthers, I try to keep a low radar there haha
Any flat earthers on permies?
 
Posts: 143
Location: North East Wisconsin
96
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Nope. The earth is a obloid globe. Its not round since its wider at the equator. There is AMPLE evidence and proof that the earth is not flat. So much so that there is little need to  look to see if its flat. The obloid globe rotates and data shows that the rotation is increasing as the magnetic north and south pole are migrating in preparation of a polar flip. The north pole has moved more in the last 20 years than in has in the last 200.



A flat earth would not have a north and south magnetic pole. It would not have a magnetosphere (as earth has). All about the universe is a orbiting, rotation and spiraling, electric motion. This has been proven and known for a very long time but I fully support the flat earthers to spend their time as they deem worthy. To date there has been nothing logical or proven by the flat earthers. You mention "Religion" in your post. Yes, I think the flat earth folks are part of a faith based religion. Nothing wrong with that. They can do no harm with their practice of that.

 
Posts: 596
Location: Stone Garden Farm Richfield Twp., Ohio
87
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
~~~You do realize that the guy that started the (most recent incarnation of) flat earth-ism, did it as a hoax. He just wanted to see how gullible some people are. He's been laughing ever since.

In a similar way, I have sometimes wondered if that Dylan McDermott fellow is doing something similar. Maybe he's pretending to be a "girl" to see how many people will buy it. With all his silliness and what is actually anti-woman behavior, he has caused a major world-wide selling corporation to lose billions of dollars in value and sales. And he has garnered untold publicity and notice for himself.

It will be amusing if/when someday those two fellows come clean in what they have been doing and the cons they have been running.
 
Posts: 121
Location: Igo, California
29
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I mean, the joke was old thousands of years ago?
 
master pollinator
Posts: 1636
Location: Ashhurst New Zealand (Cfb - oceanic temperate)
510
duck trees chicken cooking wood heat woodworking homestead
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Ask a flat earther to explain seasons. Everything outside here is white with frost and the sun still isn't up. It will be dark by 5:30 this evening. To folks in the northern hemiSPHERE that's a bit of a jarring thought right now.

Any time someone proposes a "theory" that is completely at odds with a prevailing one, chances are that the explanations for observed phenomena will be complicated to the point where you fall down laughing.* What is maddening is when someone is so attached to a ridiculous notion that they get all pushy and aggro about it, or go off and form a cult based on it and indoctrinate their kids.

Occam's Razor is a really good one to sort these out quickly and free up your headspace for stuff that matters.

* Not to be confused with something like plate tectonics, which was controversial for many years but was proven by several different forms of evidence. This was a case of a simpler cause of many observed conditions winning out over lots of mysterious handwaving.
 
Posts: 49
Location: Alberta, Canada
26
  • Likes 8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Years ago I came across the flat earth model and was fascinated by it, mostly as a though experiment. The big thing that gives it away without question is that the model only describes the sun's movement in the northern hemisphere. The generally used model of the flat earth has the sun rotating around the equator, moving north and south a bit between seasons... but the sun never moves south of the tropics. A person in the southern hemisphere south of the tropic would always see the sun to the north, regardless of season. Literally anyone that lives there will tell you the sun sets to the south and rises in the south during the summer, and its even part of the PDC course to track the sun movements in the southern hemisphere.

There's a million arguments about flat earth being fake, most of which I've seen quickly dismissed by conspiracy theorists or whatever, but this is one failure of the model that can't be explained away.

An image to give a reference point, and why someone in Buenos Aires or Sydney will always see the sun to the north in this model.

 
pollinator
Posts: 3626
Location: 4b
1311
dog forest garden trees bee building
  • Likes 16
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I read a fascinating article once that explained why the more evidence you have against a belief someone holds, the tighter they cling to it.  The evidence can be perfectly logical and easily demonstrated to the point it's hard to understand that someone doesn't believe it, and it will still cause a person that disagrees to argue more and more strenuously.  Since reading it, I try very hard not to argue something that, as far as I am concerned, is a proven fact.  Debating in that situation is incredibly frustrating and is probably never going to change the person's mind anyway.  It's easier to walk away.  Flat earth is one of those arguments.  There are many.
 
pollinator
Posts: 1090
Location: Iron River MI zone 3b
119
hugelkultur fungi foraging chicken cooking medical herbs
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Here’s my opinion:

Nobody knows the answer. Nobody could know. Obviously, nobody on earth could know for sure the earth is a globe because we’re standing on it. It seems like all you would have to do is get a view from space to know, but with further thought I would say it isnt that simple. Set a ball in front of you and what do you see? You see a circle. The only reason you think its a ball is because you put it there, so you held it in your hand and proved it was a ball. But if someone else puts a soccer ball in front of you and all you see is a circle, and you never held it in your hand, you assume its a ball because of familiarity with soccer balls. So, unless someone could hold the earth in their hands, they cant know it’s not a 2 dimensional circle instead of a sphere. Light and shadows come into play too but that can all be trickery and illusions with enough effort.

As far as I’m concerned, our life could be a simulation and the earth could just be energy. Not fkat and not a sphere, but just energy. But that is also something nobody can (and probably wouldnt want to) prove.

But for me, believing in simulation theory doesnt help with daily life. Flat earth doesnt make any sense to me for many reasons. The globe earth model actually does make a ton of sense to me. Granted I am not a scientist, astronomer or any professional with an opinion worth anything. But I have no conundrums with the globe earth model. It seems beautiful, fascinating, amazing and makes sense to me and so I have no reason to even try to convince myself it might be incorrect.

My wife seems to think it’s flat. Shes deep into conspiracies. I am open minded and believe plenty of conspiracy theories, but I am not even almost sold on flat earth. Cant talk to her about it though, its like talking to a child and that seems to be how talking to a lot of flat earthers is. Their logic and reasoning just is not sound. We watched a documentary on it from the flat earthers themselves and it made it even more clear to me. It was embarrassingly ridiculous in my opinion, and even my wife agreed. But she still thinks its flat…
 
out to pasture
Posts: 12235
Location: Portugal
3108
goat dog duck forest garden books wofati bee solar rocket stoves greening the desert
  • Likes 13
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
A very dear friend of mine was a test pilot for Concorde.

He flew it at heights of 70 000 ft, which is over 21 km, where the curvature of the planet is easily visible. He entertains himself in his old age winding up flat earthers who tell him it's not possible that he ever flew over the south pole because it doesn't exist. But he has done so. Because, well, if you're going to test a thing you might as well test it thoroughly and have a bit of fun while you do so.

He also assures me that the oft used rebuttal about the earth looking curved from Concorde because the windows are round doesn't apply to the cockpit windows, which are flat.
 
pollinator
Posts: 148
Location: Oh-Hi-Oh to New Mexico (soon)
31
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
When someone puts a ball in front of me, I do not just see just a circle. I see a sphere because I have binocular vision. which gives me a 3D view. I guess if you only have one eye it could be argued to be a circle, but you will still see evidence of light and shadow, such as the moon exhibits in it's phases.

I do not take conspiracy type theories lightly or with good humor, I have seen first hand the damage and isolation they have caused to a family member and quite honestly they seem to be proficient among those with untreated mental illnesses, minor to severe.
 
Brody Ekberg
pollinator
Posts: 1090
Location: Iron River MI zone 3b
119
hugelkultur fungi foraging chicken cooking medical herbs
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Kyle Hayward wrote:When someone puts a ball in front of me, I do not just see just a circle. I see a sphere because I have binocular vision. which gives me a 3D view. I guess if you only have one eye it could be argued to be a circle, but you will still see evidence of light and shadow, such as the moon exhibits in it's phases.

I do not take conspiracy type theories lightly or with good humor, I have seen first hand the damage and isolation they have caused to a family member and quite honestly they seem to be proficient among those with untreated mental illnesses, minor to severe.



Light and shadow are easy to fake though. A good artist can make very realistic 2d images look 3d just by shading carefully and realistically. Im just saying our eyes can be deceived quite easily, but its a lot harder to tell someone what they’re holding in their hands is 2d if they can feel its roundness.

So the only real proof to me would be for me to be God and hold the earth in my own hands. Short of that, i say it could all be a simulation. But that’s not helpful for life, and have zero issues with the globe earth model. So I personally believe it’s probably a globe. It makes sense that way, at least to me.
 
steward
Posts: 15305
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
4715
7
hunting trees books food preservation solar woodworking
  • Likes 10
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Almond Thompson wrote:Hey gang,
so I have some thoughts on flat earth theory. Mainly, why are people so against it?


I suspect it's because you can show a preponderance of evidence to disprove it.  So much evidence that it might make the proponent seem disingenuous.  Anger, disbelief and derision ensue.  

I think there's a spectrum of "conspiracy" theories that vary from Reasonably possible to Exceedingly unlikely.  Resistance to a particular theory may depend on where along that spectrum the theory lies.  Certainly social, political and other pressures would also dictate resistance to some theories.

All this is to try to answer your original question.  

If your conspiracy theory is easily disproved (Clouds are actually large clumps of flying alligators) you will face more derision
If your conspiracy theory is quite plausible (preservatives in food might not be healthy) you probably won't face much resistance
If your conspiracy theory is political/religious (your religion's followers are secretly draining the Arctic ocean to make a temple) you will face resistance from those who support that religion
 
pollinator
Posts: 343
Location: The North
153
cat purity gear tiny house books bike fiber arts bee solar woodworking ungarbage
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Almond Thompson wrote:
Where I'm coming from: I'm mostly agnostic about it. I certainly believe some aspects that tie into it but right down to the point of "the earth is flat", I just can't quite get on board.



So I’m pretty much decided but I want to be fair and listen.

Almond Thompson wrote:
…flat earth theory. Mainly, why are people so against it?



Almond Thompson wrote: But I love hearing about it from people that are passionate about it. It's always cool to hear different sides. And usually flat earthers are into other cool stuff, permaculture, stick-it-to-the-man stuff.



I think these two points are highly related. Heliocentrism was one of the biggest examples of a few people sticking it to the man. The majority of people agreed with the flat earth model not because of the arguments of the clever thinkers or religious people were particularly convincing. More that the shape of the earth didn’t make a difference to how they would put food on the table and more importantly, how they would fit in with society.

It’s easier to go with the flow rather than making a stand. Defying consensus is hard irrespective of how right you may be.

Almond Thompson wrote: I'm pretty open to it, and I wouldn't consider myself an open-minded person about just anything. After all, "do not be so open-minded that your brains fall out".
But this brings me to my point-people can be super uptight about it! They make very rude comments and just in general act like the flat earther is stupid. It's just kind of weird to me. Akin to making fun of someone else's religion! I certainly don't think you have to agree with them or pretend to. In fact, it's even more fun if you don't because everyone gets to have a friendly debate.



But friendly, well thought out debate is much harder than insults.

Almond Thompson wrote:
To clarify, I'm not advocating for or against flat earth. Just advocating for being a good hooman.
Also this is not in support of those flat earthers that have to bring it up in every other sentence, talk about it with people who have been nice about not wanting to talk about it, never shutting up about it...generally being obnoxious.
This has just been secondhand/observational experience. I don't talk flat earth with round earthers, I try to keep a low radar there haha
Any flat earthers on permies?



I doubt there are many and looking at the responses, I guess they would have purple moosaged you, rather than commenting here.

I’ll just leave something here I heard a long time ago and have no idea of the source.

“A man convinced against his will, is convinced of his own opinion still.”

You don’t win people over by arguing but by giving them your “facts” and letting them work it out for themselves.
 
James Alun
pollinator
Posts: 343
Location: The North
153
cat purity gear tiny house books bike fiber arts bee solar woodworking ungarbage
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Here’s a cool video

Vidéo on reddit
 
Sometimes you feel like a nut. Sometimes you feel like a tiny ad.
We need your help - Permies server fundraiser
https://permies.com/wiki/260600/Permies-server-fundraiser
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic