Pond sealing ideas...

Our (near-conical-shaped, man-made, red-clay-bottomed, rain-fed, approx .5 acre) pond has dropped by a couple feet, over the last 5yrs (since we bought the place). We know of at least 1 major leak - it's in the dam. We're pretty sure that's not the only one, because the owners/ builders we bought from didn't do the research on catfish, and that's the kind of fish they liked. Kinda like putting goats in a live-hedge willow fence. It took us a couple years to figure it all out. In the meantime, the deepest part of the pond is now probably less than 3 feet(1meter) deep.

We want to seal it, and help it get deeper. The side where the dam leaks is *not* accessible by tractor, & we don't have a 4wheeler or other utv, we do have disabilities and need something like that, but it's not in the budget, yet. We are NOT going to drain it, &/or add a synthetic pond liner. Just. No. We have frogs, bluegills, and another (as-yet unidentified) small fish in there, and we've seen turtles and lots of dragonflies. The local wildlife frequent the pond, often, and it's an almost daily occurance to see deer in or by the pond, drinking, and cooling off, in the summer. We also have mountain lions, coyotes, roaming dogs, foxes, and a neighborhood bear, who visit.

Getting to the questions:
We don't know whether there are still any catfish in there, but we don't think so. If there are, is sealing it up a lost cause?
Would/should stuffing the holes with more clay from our property suffice, or would it be better to use another material?
Might it be doable to not only seal the hole(s) - obviously the first priority on this project - but, to also raise the water level?
Would it be better to terrace the surrounding hills before or after tackling the hole(s) in the pond?
It's there something I'm missing? Is there more info that would help you? (I can add pics, but all are from the top of the surround)

Here, people often put at least one catfish in a new pond to help seal it. If you have a leak in the levee, they can be difficult to seal. I think generally considered the best thing to seal a leak in a pond is the kind of bentonite clay whose particles swell up when they hydrate. Put around a seep, they can flow down into the cracks and then expand and seal them.

Clay is the standard in my area.

Alrighty, then... John just told me that the leak in the dam/levee is more like pouring out, rather than a slow leak. Right now, the water level is a little lower, because we haven't had rain in a few days, so it's not leaking, but when we get a couple inches, it's pouring out almost like a faucet. Yay. 🙄😬

So... maybe find the exact hole(s), shove a big rock in, and seal around it? We can definitely do clay, even without having to dig, just by knocking it out from the roots of some of the trees that were downed, long before we even moved here. There were a few spots I could see what looked like mounds of clay dirt, but when I walked around them, turned out to be trees. (That's another thing I've had some concerns about, honestly)

If I were in your shoes I would try to fix the dam the way beavers build their dams.

Lay down a thin layer of branches and grasses, then work mud/clay into the layer.  Just keep repeating layers of sticks/grass and mud.  Try to get sticks to tangle together to get the layers to lock together.

I think your rock and clay is a good plan. Maybe dryish clay. Not cement dry, but not sopping wet when you start working with it. Maybe add the Beaver style as reinforcement once you have stopped this leak. I know that I would hate to deconstruct a bunch of branches if this Fix didn't seal it.

John also said the top of the dam is rather narrow - barely wide enough for a 4wheeler to pass over. So once we get this leak figured out, plugged, & sealed, I think it would be wise to beef the dam up - both vertically and horizontally. But, the seal has to come first. I haven't even been on that side of the pond, but if we can make it more navigable, it would be a much shorter pathway to the back part of our land...

You need DamIt.  I read about it first in a permies post years ago.  So a search and go for it.   You can apply it without drafting the pond.   If you put it near the suspected leak,  the leak will draw the product into the holes and it expands to plug th he leak.   I have not used it personally but I was impressed with what I read on permits about it.   Not cheap, but it supposedly works very well.  

Sincerely,

Ralph, also from the Ozarks

This is just a thought experiment for me, I have no experience. And I have zero understanding of the significance of catfish in this situation.

However the success and longevity of the “plug leak with rock” idea seems unlikely to succeed.  I worry that the interface between the rock and fill that is the dam itself would be a prime spot for leakage, and the rock might channel water flow next to itself, making the leak more defined.

Seems like the thing to do is repair the hole while the water is below the hole, using the beaver method described above.  If you have access to it at a reasonable price and the means to haul it, you might want to consider “road base” which is designed to compress into something solid.  It has clay and various size aggregates in particular proportions so that when compressed, there are no voids.  It could be tamped gently into the hole (like filling around a fence post, for which we always used the rounded end of a shovel handle)….. adding it in after putting a lattice of branches, or the stringy algae that grows in ponds.

If you can’t do a repair for awhile, have you thought about laying a tarp or a rug over the hole, to prevent the leak from carrying your material away and forever self enlarging?  

Which gives rise to another idea!:  if you have some fleece you could spare, it might be great plug material, slowing the flow of the leak, straining out clay and silt to slowly plug the leak the rest of the way.

Which makes me wonder, do you see a well defined leak hole, or are you just seeing the water as it exits?

I hope something works for you.

There is a thread from March 31, 2018 called how would you seal this pond.   You can find it by searching permies for "damit" or " damit".  It had been speeches both ways by different posters in the thread.   Read it and see what they said.

It works and you do not generally have to reaply it.  Once fixed it usually stays fixed. They use the expanding priory of the material in water as the agent to plug the leak.

Sincerely,

Ralph

Sodium bentonite clay is a non-toxic, natural mineral that has proven to be the most cost-effective pond sealant product for large ponds. You can use sodium bentonite pond sealer in any pond condition, ponds with or without water, with fish, plants, swimming ponds, and ponds that cannot be drained.
Another advantage to having some POOP? Geese Poop especially seals the pond better than bentonite

Don't ducks seal ponds?

Please enlighten me. What is the significance of catfish in dam leakage? I ask because I have a leaking pond to repair, so all information is welcome.

My problem, I believe, may be due to having a large goat willow growing at the side of the pond island. Most opinion is that the roots have broken through the clay lining of the pond, which is causing leakage. Does anybody know of a reliable & quick method of remedying that particular problem?

Bentonite will seal....  but will only stay sealed if protected....    and as long as it stays wet.

New Alchemy Institute years ago had a number of articles about sealing ponds (built in SAND) with grass clippings...   Cover (thick, 1' deep of compacted ?) and then cover the grass clippings with something to hold them in place...   they would break down under anerobic conditions into a kind of gel.....   might be a lot better than a rock (on the inside of the pond... )

I had an idea I have never tried: where there is a pond that is good BUT for a leak...   mix up bentonite (you can get cheap at a feed mill that makes pellets and not have buy 'pond' grade) into a slurry, and find a way to keep the pond stirred up to keep it in suspension so it would be in the water as it want out the leak...  the way bentonite works is to EXPAND tremendously and as long as it stay's wet, will keep expanded....   I had though an outboard motor (electric ?) on a boat tied to the shore / in the middle / near the leak....  

The reason pond building guides say to never let trees grow on the dam, is a root that dies can leave a channel for water to flow out....   if this is up toward the top of the pond / where you can see the leak...  you may have to wait for dry summer OR siphon the water level down below the leak if you do not have a drain in the bottom of the pond, and get a excavator to dig down and fill back the area with clay while compacting each layer....

Sprinkle dolomite on the surface and it will be pulled to the leak and seal it. I have also heard of putting geese in the pond, same effect

Thekla McDaniels wrote:This is just a thought experiment for me, I have no experience. And I have zero understanding of the significance of catfish in this situation.

However the success and longevity of the “plug leak with rock” idea seems unlikely to succeed.  I worry that the interface between the rock and fill that is the dam itself would be a prime spot for leakage, and the rock might channel water flow next to itself, making the leak more defined.

Seems like the thing to do is repair the hole while the water is below the hole, using the beaver method described above.  If you have access to it at a reasonable price and the means to haul it, you might want to consider “road base” which is designed to compress into something solid.  It has clay and various size aggregates in particular proportions so that when compressed, there are no voids.  It could be tamped gently into the hole (like filling around a fence post, for which we always used the rounded end of a shovel handle)….. adding it in after putting a lattice of branches, or the stringy algae that grows in ponds.

If you can’t do a repair for awhile, have you thought about laying a tarp or a rug over the hole, to prevent the leak from carrying your material away and forever self enlarging?  

Which gives rise to another idea!:  if you have some fleece you could spare, it might be great plug material, slowing the flow of the leak, straining out clay and silt to slowly plug the leak the rest of the way.

Which makes me wonder, do you see a well defined leak hole, or are you just seeing the water as it exits?

I hope something works for you.

The leak is more horizontal than vertical, though it probably slopes, and begins and ends a couple yards/meters below the surface of the dam. A simple surface level leak would, I'd guess, be much easier to fix. The whole area is too narrow for any kind of heavy equipment, including our little tractor, and would be much too far to carry material as heavy as that, especially for us to do, ourselves, and the terrain is too rough and heavy with brush to take a wagon or wheel barrow. I'm also not sure I'd trust the contents of that type of fill, in a currently thriving pond.

So far, John hasn't seen a well defined hole - he's just seeing the water as it exits. That's why I'm thinking a sealer. I'm going to check out the DamIt idea, and see where that takes us.

Hi, Ralph - I'll go check out the DamIt - both the product and the thread - thank you!

Hi, John V Anderson - bentonite is one of the things we've been thinking about, too.

Hi, Kyle Hayward - that's the theory, lol. But, the steepness and depth of the conical shape of the land surrounding this pond (at least in part, I believe, because the water level is so low) seems to make the pond uninviting to our ducks, though we have seen wild ones in it.

Hi, Nick Mason - it seems that in a natural waterway, catfish can easily find the holes and dark hiding places they prefer in their habitat. But, in a smooth-sided clay pond without those natural dark hiding places, the catfish will dig their own holes. The builders of this pond seem to have made it not only smooth, but likely left the natural clay thin, in places. Your goat willow could easily be part or all of your pond's trouble, and tree roots could also be at least part of ours, as well.

Hi, Robert Marsh - that's an interesting concept, with the grass clippings! Unfortunately, we don't have any typical grass on our land, as we are in the woods, in a very rural area. Anyone around us that might have grass in the quantities I'm thinking it would require is growing theirs out, for hay or grazing. We can't get an excavator down there, either... There's no drain. This was, in its essence, a hole dug into the side of a curved ravine, to make a C shaped hole, with the earth then pushed to the open side, to close it and form the dam. None of it appears to have added clay, only smoothed out the existing clay(which, with lots of rocks mixed in, is pretty much all our soil is). Draining/ siphoning really just isn't an option, for us.

Hi, Sarahlee Couchoud - we will look into the dolomite, too - thank you. Geese are just not an option, and so far, none of our ducks(we've had several breeds), or Muskovys want to go down to this pond. I've been thinking it is the shape of the surrounding topography, but it could also simply be because we do have a high population of predators, both on the land and in the air, and the birds know they're safer, closer to the house.

Thank you, everyone! I know I can always count on the people here at permies to come up with great ideas, and y'all did not disappoint! I appreciate all the ideas, including the ones that won't work for our pond, because maybe they'll be exactly what the doctor ordered, for someone else's! I so love all of you permies!!!

Disclaimer:  I have ZERO experience in catfish, ponds, dams, sealing leaks...

So some theories here...I think I heard Geoff Lawton say at some point that a leaky pond will be fixed eventually by adding pigs and/or cows?...for the manure, which, when compacted, will plug a hole.

Sounds like you might be able to get some of that, if your neighbors are growing hay?

Also, I like the idea of the beaver tactic.  Seems to me less likely to fail--having a plug that is more like mesh--than one that has just one huge rock in it, with stuff around the edges, to hold it in place.

I've noticed in my plastic rain collection barrels that natural algae growth has occurred in the cracks (some barrels have cracks but drain slowly enough, or are high enough on the sides, that I can still use them, pretty much.)  I've considered if I add some mud or manure to those, if those cracks will seal?  (haven't tried anything yet, nor do I have pigs or cows, either.)

Also thinking about how our bodies seal a crack/cut in our skin--they lay down strands of material (like a mesh) that then fills up, I believe--similar to how bones are formed from a protein matrix, then filled with a variety of minerals, not just calcium.

Maybe there are some ideas to play with there...?

Or a need for "problem is the solution" thinking...such as could you use that hole as a spillover to another water holding something or other?  This time with deep spots and steps along the sides, to make it more friendly to the ducks/geese and fish?

Got any pictures for us?  That might help.  Sometimes we don't see what is in front of our faces...yet another set of eyes will notice important details.

Hi, Alina!
Yup, very rural, mostly cattle and horses, but lots of goats, sheep, and alpacas, a very few pigs, and even a llama our two. We also have goats and sheep. But, with an otherwise healthy pond, manure isn't something that is likely to be good for the inside of the pond, though it might be good to help build up the outside of the dam, placed so as not to flow into the pond. That could be a great way to help broaden the top, so we can actually use it as a more direct way to the back portion of our property.

Steps and terrain are absolutely pay off our long-range goals, here - but not something we can do yet - maybe 5 -10yrs down the road. The other side of the dam is a much lower ravine that is already a runoff area from both the road and the top of our driveway. Were looking to stop this leak, too keep the pond from drying up. It's a safe watering hole for a large wildlife population - except during hunting season, when it becomes a major food source, for us. We also want to stock this pond, to provide even more food.

This is real a long view, and not the prettiest, because it's a winter view (gives a better chance to see the whole pond). When we first bought this place, and I first posted about this pond, it was in an effort/hope of cleaning up the muddy water. Well, it turns out, it's not all that muddy - it's pretty clear, but between the clay bottom, and the way the light reflects, it just 'looks' muddy, and the critters (boht on the water and on the shore) keep the edges from really settling. The mesh idea, particularly if we can do something carbon based, and combined with a couple of largish rocks (I'm talking about biggish rocks/very small boulders) may be a good combination. It's worth a shot, and our land came with its own supply of said rocks.

The dam & leak are all the way to the right (west), in the photo. To the right of the pond, not only is the top of the dam narrow, but the back corner of our neighbor's property comes within about 20ft of it. The rest of what you see is ours. It's kind of difficult to see just how steep that hill is, too. The white thing to the right is a target, lol. And it's bugging me that the photo makes everything to the west/ right off the pond look flat... It's really REALLY not.

Maybe tomorrow afternoon I'll try to get some better photos - this one is nearly useless.

I would ask for more information about the soil and how the Dam thing was built. The soil test I was taught was to drink a bottle of burgundy and then cut the bottom off the bottle one way or another (but karate chops don't work) then put the empty bottle in  some sand with the (ex)bottom up (funnel-like) then take yr. subsoil one handful at a time and with say, a section of broomstick and tamp each handful it, hopefully without cutting your hand on the bottle. (it won't help one bit to have just chugged the wine) When the tamped soil gets to the cylindrical part of the bottle, stick the neck into sand or pea gravel and fill the bottle by pouring water into the open bottom, then sleep off the wine, wake up and take a look: if the bottle is still full, you're in luck. If not, try mixing in a bit of clay from another site or buy some bentonite and mix well and repeat the tamping. When you get results you want, do it in the site, but WITH EACH LIFT LAYER as you build the dam, COMPACT IT ALL You can use a "thumper" compacter (which which is like wrestling an epileptic robot on meth) or rent a sheepsfoot roller and pull it with Cat or tractor. Or, like I've done, with each lift go over it with a tractor and TILLER. Yes: a rototiller is GREAT for compaction, beats the hell out of the soil (does this tell you something?) But all this needs optimum moisture, not to little, not too much, whether you rely on the weather or season or pipe, pump or truck it in. (Hose operation is a great kid or observer job) Any slope that is too steep to drive over is too steep. Of course you did take the topsoil off and place it into at least two piles on either side, so when it's all done and compacted you can replace the topsoil easily. If you used Bentonite (a sodium clay- adding straight sodium can collapse a clay soil quite effectively too) or do this by the ocean and pump some seawater in. Sealing with organic matter is termed Gleying (say "glee-ing") and manure, the soupier the better, is a good way to go. (Get a tank truck full from a dairy?) and then right away pump water in (from somewhere) and fill it. All this depends on there being some inflow of water; either natural, or road runoff (maybe with a small marsh built at the head to filter the runoff?) or any roof water that doesn't fit in yr. tanks?) or? The photo looks to me like the site is pretty high in the watershed and there may be inflow only when there's a MAJOR rain. The beauty of P. A. Yeomans' work is that he figured out you could put ponds in chains until you hydrate everything enough that you can get water into a pond on the end of a ridge (if the slope is mild enough) (Good luck finding this in the young geology of the west coast!) I would shit a brick if I heard that that pond had an actual hole and someone plugged it with a rock and it held. Could even be that the trees are sucking it all up. I may be assuming things that I shouldn't, but the data available to me is limited to one picture. I've built or designed 8 ponds; one was a total failure because of little inflow and only about 7 ft. of heavy clay above bedrock.

It's not that high. In fact, it's one of the two lowest points on our land, approximately 200ft below the highest point, and a LOT of rainwater flows into it. As I've said (several times), the soil is clay and rock. I wasn't here, when the dam was built - that was 20-odd years ago, and we've only been here for 5yrs, and there's no information available on that. There is no means to get equipment down there, beyond what we can carry by hand, and I have not been able to access it myself, as I've also said, several times.

One theory that a neighbor suggested (his family has been next door for several generations), a few years ago, is that in digging the pond, they may have gotten too close to the bedrock. Considering we are in cave country, in the Ozarks,  that is a distinct possibility that we'd forgotten about.

If your pond is the lowest point around, would it be possible to encourage more of the run off water to soak in before it reaches the pond?

I don’t know how moist your ground stays or how often it rains and how hard.

What might work around here in our arid conditions, is swales or infiltration ditches parallel to contour.  Loooong narrow ponds…🤣

If its solid clay then keeping the bottoms perforated, or make post holes in the ditches, and fill them with wood chips.  Or sand or gravel.  The basic idea being to slow the water’s flow downward, and increase the surface for infiltration.

I think the other low point on our place that I was thinking of is lower, but there is a huge ridge, between them. And, I misspoke (miss-typed?) - the ravine on the other side of the dam looks to be at least as deep as the pond, if not deeper. I actually went out to the edge of the dam, yesterday evening, and took some more pictures. I couldn't get more than a couple yards/meters in, because the brambles and brush are so thick. In fact, I could hear a few deer at the other end of the dam, but couldn't see them through the denseness of the brush. (I only know it was deer because John was able to see them from the deck.) Another thing I realized, getting that close, is that my estimate of the pond being about 1/4acre is more accurate than I'd thought, but that at its current, much lower level, it has shrunk from the approximate 1/2acre it was when we first bought the place, 5yrs ago. At that rate of shrinkage, if it continues, this pond could potentially be dry, in another 4yrs - or less. So, what prompted me to go out there, after all this time? Our ducks, after 4yrs of keeping ducks, FINALLY found the pond, and were playing and having a great time! W000t!!!

I got photos, too, that might give a somewhat better (though still very rough) idea of this pond. Unfortunately, in looking at them, the depth/ perspective/ distances still don't even come close to the reality. These are just... better than the first one. The dam itself is far too narrow, imho. If we can find a way to bolster that thickness, maybe it would also block the hole (though it won't likely fix the possible proximity to the bedrock, that Rick reminded me of).

I've always wanted to terrace the sides, to make use of the sun & slow/stop the erosion as the water flows to the pond. It washes out or driveway, forcing us to repair it, frequently - we get approximately 43" of rain, annually - not including the minor snow-melt. Now, I'm wondering if the terracing (which will be much more than a ton of relatively hazardous work) could/ would provide sufficient material to bolster the dam and build up the clay thickness, wherever it's currently too thin, over the bedrock.

I have a new pond that we need to seal at the bottom, so I did some research on bentonite. There are two types of bentonite - calcium bentonite (does not swell and can be easily found and is significantly cheaper than sodium bentonite, which does swell, is a specialist product (sold to landscapers and pond builders) and is significantly more expensive than calcium bentonite.

If I had a seep and knew where it was on the inside, I’d be tempted to pin a couple of burlap feed sacks over the area and try to work with sodium bentonite to slow the flow. A slow seep will tend to heal itself with the silt and clay that gets pulled into the seep.

Finally, from your pictures, you seem to have a lot of woody bushes or saplings started growing on your dam. Those will break down the integrity of your dam over time.

I would plant shallow rooted plants and cut out the woody stems. Clumping bamboo does a good job of holding soil and stabilising a surface. I would plant it on the outside slope of the dam.

Mary Combs wrote:I have a new pond that we need to seal at the bottom, so I did some research on bentonite. There are two types of bentonite - calcium bentonite (does not swell and can be easily found and is significantly cheaper than sodium bentonite, which does swell, is a specialist product (sold to landscapers and pond builders) and is significantly more expensive than calcium bentonite.

If I had a seep and knew where it was on the inside, I’d be tempted to pin a couple of burlap feed sacks over the area and try to work with sodium bentonite to slow the flow. A slow seep will tend to heal itself with the silt and clay that gets pulled into the seep.

Finally, from your pictures, you seem to have a lot of woody bushes or saplings started growing on your dam. Those will break down the integrity of your dam over time.

I would plant shallow rooted plants and cut out the woody stems. Clumping bamboo does a good job of holding soil and stabilising a surface. I would plant it on the outside slope of the dam.

Hi, Mary - thank you for that! I didn't know that, about the bentonite (I tend to see the stuff primarily from the perspective of a herbalist & creator of hygiene and skin care products, lol).
As far as the top of the dam, if we can stop this leak, my hope is to clear it, for use as a safe path to the other side. The dam side is much closer to the house, and it would be great to have easy access from the deck. Foraging on that side of the pond would be much better, if the hike to & from it wasn't so prohibitive to my painful knees.

Carla Burke wrote:pour Mary - thank you for that! I didn't know that, about the bentonite (I tend to see the stuff primarily from the perspective of a herbalist & creator of hygiene and skin care products, lol).
As far as the top of the dam, if we can stop this leak, my hope is to clear it, for use as a safe path to the other side. The dam side is much closer to the house, and it would be great to have easy access from the deck. Foraging on that side of the pond would be much better, if the hike to & from it wasn't so prohibitive to my painful knees.

Hi Carla - a serious consideration - planners and the environment agency really do not like tall dams unless they are planned, permitted and built under the supervision of an engineer. Much as we want to be free of bureaucracy, there is a pretty good reason for that rule. The deeper your pond gets, the more water will pour downstream in the event of a failure of the dam. The fact that you have a seep already, argues for the dam not being perhaps as strong as you imagine. What is downhill of you? What is going to get damaged, killed or washed away if your dam fails? Regardless of someone before you having built it, when you bought the property, you inherited the liability for that pond, etc. My bet is that the previous owner just bulldozed a dyke and called it a dam, without having properly constructed it from the bottom up - track rolling every 6 inches and having a solid clay core. The more water pressure you put behind that structure, the more pressure will be exerted at all levels. if it should fail, not only could bad things happen downstream, but you will have lost all your dam construction material.

My property has a 'cow pond' that I'm sure was constructed much as I describe above. At one point our seller owned a bull dozer and there is evidence all over the farm of where he just had to find a use for that tool. As for our cow pond - it is spring-fed, so I don't plan on messing with it at all (springs and seeps tend to go their own way if messed with). I would be surprised if he even scraped the grass off the future dam site before starting to throw up the dam / berm. It leaks at about the same rate that the spring supplies water - so our pond depth only varies by 12 - 18" over the year.  What it does do is leak from under the dam. We have taken advantage (permaculture style) of that leak by situating our main farm garden below that dam. We therefore get sub-irrigation for a couple months going into summer. I am now wanting to bury wood and biochar under the garden beds to try to capture water in the Spring and extend that sub-irrigation effect through the whole Summer.

Hi, Mary. I've already addressed most of this, in my previous posts, and I'm running short of time, today. We live in the woods. The pond and surrounding land belongs to us, we live in an area that doesn't require permits for pretty much anything, the next door neighbor's land is on a ridge well above any of it. No other land is going to be affected, other than ours.

Hi Carla,

To those who do not live in Arkansas or a similar "low to no permits required" local, it is a hard concept to grasp.   The county that I live in requires almost no permitting.   The downside is that sometimes your dams leak or any number of electrical or plumbing problems or... that i have run into since buying my current residence.   All in all,  I really like being left alone and dealing with the dam leaks.

Sincerely,

Ralph

Ralph Kettell wrote:Hi Carla,

To those who do not live in Arkansas or a similar "low to no permits required" local, it is a hard concept to grasp.   The county that I live in requires almost no permitting.   The downside is that sometimes your dams leak or any number of electrical or plumbing problems or... that i have run into since buying my current residence.   All in all,  I really like being left alone and dealing with the dam leaks.

Sincerely,

Ralph

It's true. Missouri's laws are minimal and tend toward leaving its citizens relatively to their own devices. It's a fearsome & awesome double-edged sword that I'd much rather wield, than any other, to be sure - even with the occasional head-scratching confusion a previous owner/builder can often leave you with, lol.

In fact, there are quite a few people around here living in or in the process of building houses, garage, barns, etc, from scavenged pallets. We've watched some of them, from the beginning of the build to the movein & live-in stages. Some, you'd never know that's what their primary building materials were, and others are... pretty obvious. Ahem.