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rocket workshops / innovators gathering / September 2014  RSS feed

 
paul wheaton
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On July 1, Ernie and Erica will announce who they think are the four best rocket mass heater innovators. Those four innovators will be extended an invitation to this event. We will provide them with food, a bunk, tools, toys, materials and we will attempt to provide each innovator with two (maybe more) lab rats to help them create.

Sep 19-21 rocket mass heater Workshop (sold out)
Sep 22-26 Pyronaut Laboratory (one ticket left)



rocket mass heater Workshop: This is a standard, formal workshop taught by ernie and erica. There might be four other innovators hanging out too - but it is really up to them if they participate. This will start on Friday, Sep 19th at dusk with Fire Science. Saturday and Sunday will be divided between classroom time and hands on experience in building a rocket mass heater. $380. 25 students max.

Pyronaut Laboratory: For the 5 day lab there will be 12 lab rats allowed. With up to six innovators on site, lab rats will help the innovators with their endeavors. $500 for one five day event.

Lab rat stint and workshop: $760

(if you buy a ticket and then get picked as one of the four innovators, you will get a 100% refund)

To reserve your spot(s) send payment via paypal to paul at richsoil.com.

Click here for work trade stuff (all work trade is full)
 
Jocelyn Campbell
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As I posted in the wofati workshop July 2014 thread:

Jocelyn Campbell wrote:Food is not considered part of the price of the workshop, however, workshop participants will be invited to dine with Paul.


We'll dine together 3 meals a day on Saturday and Sunday of the two RMH workshops (note that both of these start on Friday evening after dinner), and 3 meals a day Mon.-Fri. of the Pyronaut Lab week.

More general workshop info in the new workshop FAQ's.
 
Jocelyn Campbell
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See photos and comments about our last/first RMH workshops in the October 2013 RMH workshops thread.
 
Bill Puckett
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Here is my submission...

Rocket spring bioshelter constructed over sun facing rock, with citrus edge.

The bell is submerged in a saturated growing medium which is aquatically connected to a tub, then fish pond.

Duct wraps around the tub, pond (optional), and goes vertical up a wall cavity.

When the heater is hot, warm water is pumped over a living rock wall, back to the growing medium.

Air and water circulation also occurs whenever the masses reach an upper heat tolerance.
 
paul wheaton
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work trade: two weeks of work before the workshop and you can get in on the workshop; three weeks and get a workshop and the lab rat stint.

Edited 7/31/14 to add: going forward, all work trade applicants will be subject to a one time charge of $100 similar to the gapper program.

Note that work trade is generally 40 hours per week bread labor (read more in worktrade thread or the gapper thread about what bread labor means).
 
Jocelyn Campbell
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paul wheaton wrote:
Sep 19-21 Rocket Mass Heater Workshop

Rocket Mass Heater Workshop: This is a standard, formal workshop taught by Ernie and Erica. There might be four other innovators hanging out too - but it is really up to them if they participate. This will start on Friday, Sep 19th at dusk with Fire Science. Saturday and Sunday will be divided between classroom time and hands on experience in building a rocket mass heater. $450. 25 students max.

To reserve your spot(s) send payment via paypal to paul at richsoil.com.

As Paul wrote in the daily-ish e-mail two days ago:
This is a standard rocket mass heater workshop using cob. This will not use a shippable core. It will be a standard cob core. And a cob bench.
 
ben capozzi
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Is there any sort of refund policy for the 2-day workshop? My wife wants to visit Montana and I'm trying to convince her this is the way! =] She wants more time, but I'm thinking of that discount for Daily Email peeps...

~ben
 
paul wheaton
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Nope. Once people have paid, then we make plans around that person being here. A person could give their ticket to somebody else if they want.
 
Cassie Langstraat
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Did the four innovators ever get announced?
 
paul wheaton
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Apparently there has been a great deal of debate at the Wisner house.

The innovators have now been contacted.

 
Cassie Langstraat
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Gotcha.

Is there a detailed list somewhere of what all will be taught at this workshop?
 
paul wheaton
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Jocelyn Campbell
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Someone posted in another thread:

Kathryn Yelsa wrote:If I take the rocket stove class will I get a blue print or model of the fabrication so that I can build one at home? the the model of the fabricated metal parts. And can or will there be an option to apply this technology on a wood burning cook stove.

I'm checking on the best answer and will hopefully get that posted soon.

In the mean time, or for those who might not be able to attend, Ernie and Erica have awesome plans and more at this Scubbly link (gives a kickback to the empire in addition to supporting E&E's good works).

There is also, of course, the seminal book on the subject, Rocket Mass Heaters: Superefficient Woodstoves YOU Can Build (another empire affiliate link through Amazon) which includes plans.
 
paul wheaton
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Each of the six innovators will, of course, work on whatever strikes their fancy. And they are welcome to say what they are currently thinking what their fancy is (or not) and they are free to change their minds later.

I would like to take this moment to make some suggestions.

59) the portland cement shippable core

60) any shippable core

61) fins on top of a duct in an effort to reduce the total amount of duct

62) sending exhaust out a wall, high on the wall vs. low on the wall or through the roof

63) using a peltier pad to run an exhaust fan assist

64) a tiny rocket mass heater for a tiny house

65) improvements to the rmh in the tipi (guillotine, back insulation ideas, other?)

Any other ideas?

 
Alan Mikoleit
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Paul asks - "any other ideas" ? Yes, if I were to build a horizontal floor system from what I learned in my hybrid build I would try this first. I would use used water tanks and or propane tanks instead of ducts for better air flow and easier clean out. Less total length of run could probably be used due to the larger surface area per length. I would form a wall around the tanks with red bricks and back fill with gravel to save both time and money in making cob. The bricks can be dry stacked and surface bonded with surface bonding cement on the inside surfaces. No masonry skill is required. Then I would from a red brick wall around the barrel up to it's top to hide it. There would be enough space between the barrel and the brick wall so maintain it's function of quickly cooling the inside air so it sinks down. The top of the barrel could still be used for heating water or cooking.
 
Valerie Dawnstar
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Yes, I am intrigued with the RMH with a fire view? Has anyone ever devised a RMH to heat a hot tub? Looking forward to seeing Erica and Ernie in New York in October!
 
paul wheaton
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One other thing: It sounds like there is a better than 50/50 chance that my buddy, willie smits, will be attending the workshop.

Oh, and another thing: it sounds like my buddy, chef seth, will be here for the whole month of september.

 
Julia Winter
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Oh yum! Now I wish I could come. Seth is an awesome chef. He cooked for us at the big permies house for Permaculture Voices.

Anybody who was on the fence, now you really should go!
 
Justin Jones
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What I would like to see, more than anything, is a RMH with an integrated pyrolysis chamber for char production. Edward Reville in the UK has done some work in this space: http://www.soil-carbon-regeneration.co.uk/biochar/instructions/biochar-rocket-building-instructions/ ... I like to think that these designs can be taken even further.
 
Tim Barker
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Hi all i would love to experiment with some old car radiators as cheap but very effective heat exchangers. Ideas i have are for a cheaper easier to build and more efficient hot water system than my current design and also a mass heater for very small spaces (caravans and such) using the radiators linked to water tanks to both thermosyphon heat into the water tank and out of it into the space being heated.
Cheers Tim
 
Tom Rutledge
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paul wheaton wrote:
...
Any other ideas?




1)An attempt at moderating the heat losses in the feed tube.

a) Different feed tube shapes.
Rounded, in the xy plane.
A V pointing open end towards the barrel

b) Connect the feed tube and burn tunnel by a slight bend, or bend the burn tunnel.

2) High mass rocket mass heaters. Rather than burning daily, burn once a week.



 
Peter van den Berg
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paul wheaton wrote:Each of the six innovators will, of course, work on whatever strikes their fancy. And they are welcome to say what they are currently thinking what their fancy is (or not) and they are free to change their minds later.

I have been mainly working on optimizing the combustion so it would be interesting to take that a step further.
The first thing I want to try out is a slightly different shape of the burn tunnel. Nothing overly advanced or difficult to make, rather simple really. And as suggested here, maybe another one with a bend in the tunnel. That last one is easy to misunderstand so I'll refrase: the feed positioned at the left or right side of the tunnel, but as far from the riser as possible.

Maybe there's also time to work on and demonstrate a new aspect of the so-called batch box rocket, a rather different project. That would involve some metalwork duct to be done, are there materials and tools to cut, grind and weld?
 
paul wheaton
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Peter Berg wrote: That would involve some metalwork duct to be done, are there materials and tools to cut, grind and weld?


Yes. We have two mig welders, several grinders, oxy acetylene ... we have lots of stuff for working with metal.
 
Matt Walker
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If there is anything I can bring that might be useful to you guys, let me know, I have a pretty good stockpile of stuff and will be driving so I can haul some stuff. Peter, I'll bring my 330 for sure, and Tim, I have a Red Dot with a 12v fan I salvaged during a refit on a customer's vessel that I will throw in there, you can use that as a quick hook up for the human side of your hydronic system if you like. Peter, I have some good transformer based voltage converters, but I think you guys are 50hz which makes things more difficult. Are you planning on bringing your 330? I think maybe we can share my US power adapter to charge them?

I've done quite a bit of playing with TEGs and circuits over the last year. Paul, running a fan is no problem, I was successful providing adequate reading light for myself most of the winter with a simple set up. I'll round up parts and bring stuff for that if you guys are interested. Here's the basic set up:



Uh, what else? I'd love to build a cook stove/outdoor seating area for folks to hang out on/around during events, or perhaps at one of the occupied dwellings there. I think this technology is severely underutilized in this space, and I believe that once folks experience how nice sitting around a fire can be they will not accept smokey clothes and cold backs any longer. The lab appears to have endless sticks, my goal would be to create a situation where you never have to buy propane or charcoal for outdoor cooking, or want for it at all, regardless of what food or style you are cooking. This is also a very appropriate technology that regular folks can use in their everyday lives to make a difference. Not everyone can build a heater indoors for various reasons, but a lot of folks would love to be able to cook without having to purchase fuels with high embodied energy costs, not to mention a smokeless burner opens up a lot of options for folks with neighbor/HOA type concerns. I think these could be very useful to a large group of folks if we could get the word out, and I do think over time we could make a large difference in quality of life for folks, as well as spread the awareness of this technology, which is my overall mission. I know we are mostly talking about indoor heaters, but starting outdoors is a great way to gain momentum, knowledge, and experience, in my opinion.

 
Peter van den Berg
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Matt Walker wrote:Peter, I have some good transformer based voltage converters, but I think you guys are 50hz which makes things more difficult. Are you planning on bringing your 330? I think maybe we can share my US power adapter to charge them?

Hi Matt,
Yes, I'll bring my Testo 330 if it's OK at customs. The only thing I need to charge the thing is a different plug, called international travel plug or something like that. The chargers of most electronics are dual 50/60hz and 100/240v so that should be no problem.

Thought it over to leave the 330 at home since you will bring yours but having two of those analyzers will make it possible to test a whole raft of stoves. Even when freshly built it can be put to the test. I do expect some pleasant surprises and some rejected layouts!

This gathering could turn out to be one of the best ideas of recent years.
 
John Copinger
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Paul, you asked for any other ideas: you have never mentioned venturis. There are those who advocate putting a venturi in the beginning of the burn tunnel to improve the performance. There is also the possibility of putting a venturi in the outlet pipe to improve the flow. Anybody got any experience of these?
 
Alan Mikoleit
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I think more efficiency will come mostly by a lot of preheated air added like in the newer secondary burn wood stoves. As far as shape goes just a longer burn tunnel and riser should be OK with the added air.

At one time I was working in the sawmill industry drawing up co-generation burners. The burners were big round tanks with air pipes coming in tangent to create a corkscrew vortex flame.

The other day I watched a video of a guy who was dripping waste oil into his double barrel stove. Any opinions on doing that as I am willing to try it myself on my RMH.

The TEG looks good, and will have to test them.
 
David Miller
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Hi Folks, I need a little help. I'm trying to think thru the logistics of coming to the workshop and need help. Where is the closest airport, train station etc. Also, what's the address of the farm?
 
Peter van den Berg
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paul wheaton wrote:Yes. We have two mig welders, several grinders, oxy acetylene ... we have lots of stuff for working with metal.

Excellent! So there will be plenty of tools to create things on site. In particular, working with a proper mig welder again would be a pleasure.
 
Alan Mikoleit
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David, I'm in the relative area and think Spokane is right answer for both ways of travel.
 
Sam Barber
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David Miller wrote:Hi Folks, I need a little help. I'm trying to think thru the logistics of coming to the workshop and need help. Where is the closest airport, train station etc. Also, what's the address of the farm?


Hi David! The closest airport is Missoula International Airport. I don't believe there are any passenger trains to Missoula though. We are willing to pick workshop attendees up at the airport. As far as the address we don't tell people the address on permies. Once you buy a ticket for the workshop you will be given that information though all I can say is we are near Missoula.
 
David Miller
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Fair enough, thanks. For some reason I thought the lab was in Missouri, Montana is a totally different ball game.
 
Chris McClellan
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Hey folks, I am really excited about being one of the mad scientists. My thoughts drift toward further "tiny house" rocket development based on the one I built last fall for a friend with a school bus. I have some ideas that have turned into a nifty low cost "greenhouse heater" that can be shipped, with a dirt cheap fire view and I want Ernie to try to break it. I am eager to play with someone with a gas analyzer and Matt I would love to play with your heat riser. I'm told it's the bomb. Paul do you have any vermiculite board or perlite board or Roxul Rockboard on hand or should I figure out how to bring some? This is going to be fun! --Chris McClellan
 
paul wheaton
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paul wheaton
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Once all of the tickets are gone, rather than setting up a waiting list in case of cancellations, we will announce any possible openings via the daily-ish email.
 
paul wheaton
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There are no more tickets for the rocket mass heater workshop. All sold out.

There is one ticket left for the pyronaut laboratory.

 
david tyler
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Paul I would like to film the work shop, I have a HD sony H/C and tripod. let me know. Thanks.
 
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