• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies living kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education experiences global resources the cider press projects digital market permies.com all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nicole Alderman
  • raven ranson
  • paul wheaton
  • Jocelyn Campbell
  • Julia Winter
stewards:
  • Burra Maluca
  • Devaka Cooray
  • Bill Erickson
garden masters:
  • Joylynn Hardesty
  • Bryant RedHawk
  • Mike Jay
gardeners:
  • Joseph Lofthouse
  • Dan Boone
  • Daron Williams

What do you sleep on? Mattress Alternatives?  RSS feed

 
Posts: 5
Location: MN Zone 4b
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Here's an idea, especially for those of you who are in temporary situations, but have you thought of rope beds? I've seen patterns online that look easy to put together and take apart. If you weave the rope together tightly, maybe it would be comfortable in permanent situations? Here's a link with a bunch of pictures of rope beds: http://howtomakeacharpoy.blogspot.com/
 
master steward
Posts: 2748
Location: Moved from south central WI to Portland, OR
425
bee bike chicken food preservation hugelkultur urban
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
That is cool - thanks for posting! When the weaving incorporates different colors and patterns, you just have a really lovely piece of furniture.
 
Posts: 262
8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I wonder how comfortable rope beds are? Do people put some sort of thin mattress on them?
 
gardener
Posts: 2173
Location: Fraser River Headwaters, Zone3, Lat: 53N, Altitude 2750', Boreal/Temperate Rainforest-transition
239
bike books food preservation forest garden fungi hugelkultur solar trees woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I slept for a summer on a mattress I made for myself out of small western hemlock, sitka spruce, and western red cedar boughs, which were jammed into dune sand and mixed with forest mosses, and after the bed had some loft of it's own during construction, the boughs were jammed into each other, always with the cut stick end facing down or sideways, and the softer part facing up. The mattress was surrounded by (contained within) a ring of yellow cedar driftwood logs. The bed was finished off with only the hemlock boughs and moss because they were softer, then the spruce and cedar. The bed was fragrant and sort of soft in a feather pillow kind of way, but it did get packed out in a sort of body shape in the place I tended to sleep. I added a bit of moss and hemlock a couple times during the summer. It did take a while to build the bed, but it was worth every moment. I used flannel sheets and wool blankets. This bed was in a semi primitive shelter, made of clear plastic over top of a wigwam (or sweat lodge) shape of driftwood red cedar branches. It was one of the coziest homes I ever have had, and it had a frog pond near by, chirping me to sleep and the sound of the ocean surf as another lullaby. Although I am no huge fan of plastic, in general, I could see stars and moon clearly through it, framed by the organic curves of cedar branches. Life was simple and good. Bliss.
 
gardener
Posts: 7405
Location: Victoria British Columbia-Canada
404
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The most comfortable beds that I have ever slept on,  were made out of pea gravel. This gravel was gathered into piles while  tearing down buildings with tar and gravel roofing. You can mould it to roughly a bed shape and then wiggle until the fit is just right.

 On most occasions, this was just to make a temporary,  easy chair sort of bed,  while having lunch on the job. A few times, I put a sheet over the gravel and then a blanket over top, so it could be used at night. The rocks retained heat for a long time.

 I suppose there are certain dangers to sleeping on top of a big commercial building,  with no railing, but I'm not a sleepwalker. No need to search for the urinal.☺

 If you build a pea gravel bed, may I suggest that it be framed with 2x8 lumber,  on a nice ground level,  brick patio that faces south.
........
For the full story on a guest house based on one of these beds, check out this thread. The gravel covers a rocket mass heater.

http://www.permies.com/t/51867//Dale-RMH-Gravel-Bed-Guest
 
Roberto pokachinni
gardener
Posts: 2173
Location: Fraser River Headwaters, Zone3, Lat: 53N, Altitude 2750', Boreal/Temperate Rainforest-transition
239
bike books food preservation forest garden fungi hugelkultur solar trees woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Dale Hodgins wrote:
 On most occasions, this was just to make a temporary,  easy chair sort of bed, 

Yeah buddy!! , I can relate:

While building a stone basement, and two story cordwood house, for two summers, we would go down to a river close by for lunch and there we all built lounge chairs out of river boulders. One might think that they would be a waste of energy after laboring all day, and uncomfortable as we had no padding on these chairs, but you could place the boulders so that you were supported in all the right ways, semi reclined with knees bent over a rock, back and neck fully supported. Being so close to a roaring mountain river that you could climb in to full immersion and then go back to the sun warmed rock chair was an extremely amazing way to have a lunch break. It was hard to go back to work, as cool as the project was.

  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Elias Antoniou wrote: Latex mattresses do the best job at conforming to the curves of the body and relaxing the spine (which is what we seek after, the surface to conform to our figure and not the opposite) but loose their attributes quite fast if they are full natural (100% natural latex) and are very expensive.


Best job at conforming to the curves of the body after memory foam... But memory foam is most certainly not organic. So yeah...
Also, there is no such thing as 100% natural latex. According to this, that's a misconception. Any ad that says otherwise is misleading. Latex is only mostly natural.
 
master steward
Posts: 10643
Location: Left Coast Canada
1808
books chicken fiber arts cooking sheep
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I have an organic wool mattress fromShepherd's Dream. Been using it at least 10 years. Love it.

Being wool, and therefore a naturally non-flammable material, most regulations don't require fire suppression to be added to the mattress. The only ingredients are wool, wool, more wool and cotton thread.

Depending on where you live, most mattresses require a prescription to be made chemical free, but wool usually doesn't.

After ten years, the mattress has compressed a bit in the center, as expected. Part of this is my fault as I don't turn the mattress as often as I should.

The bedframe needs to let the mattress breath, so slatted wood or rope frames are most common. The mattress fits on an Ikea bed frame just fine. I have a simple, unfinished pine one.

At the shop where I bought the mattress, they had it displayed on tatami mats. This was incredibly comfortable and if I had the money, I would most definitely use this for a sleeping platform. Some of my most comfortable nights have been on a thin cotton or wool mattress on tatami mats. Or even just a blanket between the mat and myself were enough for a delightful sleep - I like a firm mattress whenever possible.

One of the most important things with a natural bedding mattress is that you fold down your covers each morning so that the mattress can breath. DON'T make your bed first thing. If you MUST make your bed for one reason or another, than do so after breakfast.


Other mattresses I've tried are wool and straw ticks that we use for medieval recreation. This is very different than the Shepherd's dream mattress. These are basically a sack of duck cloth that are stuffed with straw or wool that has been fluffed up. After a couple of nights, the contents need to be repositioned a little, but it's not much more bother than fluffing a pillow - especially if you have the special mattress fluffing stick. With straw, one usually needs to change the filling every year or 6 months. With wool, every year or two.
 
pollinator
Posts: 334
Location: south-central ME, USA - zone 5a/4b
58
cat dog duck food preservation forest garden fungi solar trees
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Thekla McDaniels wrote:Another sleep system that I did not see mentioned on this thread yet is a "kang", a "chinese heated living platform". So folks think of the rocket stove mass heater with a cob bench as the mass. The cob bench made wide and long enough to sleep on is your kang. I remember Ianto Evans said people sometimes make heated personalized cob recliners, and that the situation of receiving heat from the cob seems to soften the material, it does not seem like you are resting on brick. I know people have over heated mass benches and singed the bottoms of their sleeping pads, attention would have to be paid... but why not a cob kang, whether heated with hot water coil or the exhaust gases from the rocket stove?



This is what I'm planning to build into our completely off-grid cabin (RMH heater bed / kang) - here in New England, while even most summer nights are chilly, some are downright thick (hot & humid). All that thermal mass and humidity control from the dry cob will go a long way toward providing a consistently comfortable sleeping environment. After mentioning this to a colleague in New Mexico, he recalled a story about the "cowboy's bed" where the cowboys of old would build a raised stone bed platform over a fire pit to throw their sleeping rolls on for the night, providing a comfortable night's sleep while out on the range. This would also help to keep scorpions at bay which was, of course, a major concern to anyone sleeping on the ground in the southwest US. From what I understand, the cowboys themselves borrowed this idea from shepards in old europe

Scary about the singed sleeping pads though - never thought about that. I guess thicker is better when constructing one of these, just to help buffer that heat a little and keep things safe.
 
Posts: 5
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Rachel Watersong wrote:The only downside we've found is that as a pair of snuggly newlyweds, it's a bit harder to spoon on the bed because one of us is usually on a buckwheat-lump. But... I think it's worth it.



Just a quick update-- we realized the lump was actually because of the bed frame-- the buckwheat pods were falling in between the slats everywhere but along a ridge in the middle. Moved the mattress to the floor and it's now even better, snuggle-ability has increased 100%!
 
pollinator
Posts: 1597
Location: La Palma (Canary island) Zone 11
35
bike forest garden solar tiny house purity wofati
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Rory Rivers wrote:I realize it's not for everyone, but sleeping on the floor can be surprisingly comfortable. You just need something to insulate you from the ground and provide a little cushin (I use two wool blankets each folded in half). The first week or so it feels like, well, sleeping on the floor; but after that it just feels like sleeping in your bed i.e. the most comfortable place to sleep.



I have just started to sleep on the wooden floor, and it was bad only for a few nights.
I use it for reeducating my spine.
So, pains and aches....
Now I can sleep a fullnight, after 1 week may be...
I still feel as if some of my vertebras were welded in the middle of my back, and my cervicals are not great.

I use a blanket, folded to be narrow, so that my shoulders can expand on the side, that was the most relieving part!
I got the idea from a feldenkreis exercise. It was made on a rolled blanket, just below the spine, and of course that is too much for a night balance.
I still do this when I want to relax my back,
wonderful!

At night, I still put something under my knees (psoas muscle is too tight).
I still have something under my head, not much.

I change both gradually, so that I reeducate my spine curve.
The result is already visible in the mirror from the side: I am straighter.

And writing on the computer is hard, I always forget the posture!
 
Posts: 80
Location: Nomadic
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Fantastic ideas! At my permaculture site around the warm compost area grew so much giant Galium spp. (Bedstraw) that I gathered up enough for a mattress in minutes. It has a nice aroma a bit like vanilla and was comfy with a couple sheets over it.
For hot nights like Florida I discovered a air mattress on a cool concrete floor is very effective natural cooling. A thin topper covering it makes it feel more natural. The reverse applies: I froze on a air mattress on a cold concrete floor in a cold climate lol. 
I adore waterbeds. But my temporary house, a Chevy van, might balk about a waterbed. Hey, what about a thin layer of water? Hmmm, anyone heard of such a thing? Overheating in Florida was a big discomfort so I thought about a water cooled bed?
 
gardener
Posts: 3475
Location: Cache Valley, zone 4b, Irrigated, 9" rain in badlands.
813
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I sleep in a hammock sewn from a piece of canvas. It's generally cool here, even in the summer, therefore I sewed a quit onto the outside of the hammock.

I sleep on a blanket on the floor. I really love the freedom that gives me. I don't have to be caged to a soft bed. I can sleep anywhere. I transitioned slowly to floor sleeping. Taking short naps a couple times per week. Then longer naps every other day. Then a half night a couple times a week, etc, to slowly build up my ability to sleep on the floor/ground without injuring myself by starting out doing it for a whole night.

I sleep on a blanket on the ground. That's usually best if there is a water impervious groundcloth to keep ground moisture from evaporating and chilling me.

Or I just plain old lay down on the ground.

hammock.jpg
[Thumbnail for hammock.jpg]
Sleeping in hammock.
sleeping-on-blanket-on-floor.jpg
[Thumbnail for sleeping-on-blanket-on-floor.jpg]
Floor-sleeping in the seed room.
sleeping-on-the-ground.jpg
[Thumbnail for sleeping-on-the-ground.jpg]
Sleeping directly on the ground
sleeping-on-ground-cloth.jpg
[Thumbnail for sleeping-on-ground-cloth.jpg]
Ground-sleeping with ground-cloth and blankets.
 
Posts: 170
Location: Denmark 57N
8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I've heard of wool stuffed mattresses, they should last a lifetime, but they do need re-stuffing every 4-5 years, and apparently that is a very specialist task. I don't understand how people manage to sleep on the floor, my back doesn't mind, but my hips hurt like fury and I wake up every hour or so with numb legs from the pressure on the hips.
 
Xisca Nicolas
pollinator
Posts: 1597
Location: La Palma (Canary island) Zone 11
35
bike forest garden solar tiny house purity wofati
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Skandi Rogers wrote:I've heard of wool stuffed mattresses, they should last a lifetime, but they do need re-stuffing every 4-5 years, and apparently that is a very specialist task. I don't understand how people manage to sleep on the floor, my back doesn't mind, but my hips hurt like fury and I wake up every hour or so with numb legs from the pressure on the hips.


Do you sleep on your side?

I have elaborated a system of matresses, blankets, pillows etc, to get the right support for my body. The best are rolled blankets and balls of clothes, sheets, small blankets etc, to fit the form you want! I have found out that sleeping can reeducate the body and also take care of the jaw, the famous important TMJ. Also it is an absolute that we much come to a nose breathe might and keep saliva in the mouth for teeth regeneration.

When on your back, you might need something under your knees.
If on your belly, you need to be able to not twist your neck on the side. I have a system with a sheet and blanket, to support my forehead and let go my lower-jaw: very confortable and very useful when the moon shines! In that case I need support under the tibias, so that my ankles and feet do not get stretched exagerately.
On side, I need to care about the posture of the jaw, and Ii need big support of my head, to let shoulders free and have a good breathing. I also need waist support to not block the hip.

Coming from Feldenkrais (awake, not for sleeping or not at first): try a rolled blanket under the spine and practise to balance your right and left side on it, and feel your body with your inner sensations. It opened my shoulders too, and could notice how much I needed to open my breathing there!
 
Posts: 38
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
So... my friend has this terrible backpain, and since last year he's become obsessed by finding the prefect mattress. Since last year he has bought 2 new, different mattresses (and this was a big sacrifice for him, as he does not really have any savings), first a futon, with cotton and coconut, but turned out to be really to hard and painful after a few weeks, then a sort of foam mattress, which he loved initially, but now complains that it is too soft... He was planning some month ago to even buy a third mattress (which would have taken even more place in his already cramped place, but he didn't)... He alternates between those 2...
One idea we've thought about (jokingly) is hay... He also has a big problem sitting, he has this big plastic inflatable ball that used to work quite ok, but now he says that it's not working. I still don't get it: some couches are too hard, and others are too soft. But he really is suffering, and I would like to help him find something that could ease the pain. Any suggestions?
 
Joseph Lofthouse
gardener
Posts: 3475
Location: Cache Valley, zone 4b, Irrigated, 9" rain in badlands.
813
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm wondering if your friend is morbidly obese? If yes, loosing weight might help a lot...

I've noticed that our bodies change to trap themselves into the equipment that we use... They mold themselves to fit our chairs, our beds, our habitual posture, our clothing. Mixing things up can help alleviate aches and pains. For example, alternately sleeping in different beds can help mobilize muscles and joints that were frozen into a certain position by always sitting/sleeping in the same way. Walking backwards, or sideways, or skipping, or hopping,  or twirling, etc can use different muscles and joints in different ways, so that they don't get trapped into the same position.  We can squat, or sit cross legged, or sideways, or use alternating chairs, etc... Again with the idea of keeping joints and muscles flexible and using more of their full range of motion.
 
Xisca Nicolas
pollinator
Posts: 1597
Location: La Palma (Canary island) Zone 11
35
bike forest garden solar tiny house purity wofati
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Alternating seems a good solution...
i can tell about the way I do it, I have two mattresses side by side on a wooden floor, and really, I just discover on which I am in the morning! Which includes very often to be suspended between the two, as in a hammock... or i can be on the side and my shoulder in the hole, so my chest has space to breathe.
It is also good to have many cushions or blankets to suport the body where needed, as the body choses at night when sleeping.

Then all is about the cause. The need to alternates make me think about muscles contractures, and the incapacity to have something established. When you change you are less stiff!
 
Lana Weldon
Posts: 38
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thanks both of you for your advice. Btw, no he is not overweight. Yes I also believe that alternating is a good thing, and moving the body in usual way, this is something I do myself because of my stiff neck and shoulders. I improvise my own moves, feel great!
Interesting Xisca, about your sleeping solution! He started having serious problems already in his early 20's. He blames his back problems on bad mattresses that ruined his back, and this for me is not the only answer. He thinks that all his backpain will disappear if he finds the perfect mattress, which of course will not happen, as the major problem is within him. Hopefully he'll be able some time to look at it in a different way.
 
Julia Winter
master steward
Posts: 2748
Location: Moved from south central WI to Portland, OR
425
bee bike chicken food preservation hugelkultur urban
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I tried lots of things for chronic back pain. The only thing that works for me is yoga.  I do a yoga class twice a week, and if I go without for over a week, I start to wake up in pain. 
 
Posts: 23
Location: Coastal British Columbia
4
food preservation homestead trees
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I agree with Julia. I had back pain & terrible posture for years. No mattress helped it (I got a 100% rubber mattress which is super comfortable but firm). After a few months of doing Interval Yoga with Ali Kamenova on Youtube (video below), my abdominal & back muscles were very strong & I had no more pain, even from doing activities that used to cause pain. Her classes are very challenging, but if you start with her beginner series (all free on youtube) your friend can work up to more intermediate & advanced classes. Hope your friend gets some relief soon!
 
Posts: 7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

r ranson wrote:I have an organic wool mattress fromShepherd's Dream.  Been using it at least 10 years.  Love it.

Being wool, and therefore a naturally non-flammable material, most regulations don't require fire suppression to be added to the mattress.  The only ingredients are wool, wool, more wool and cotton thread.

Depending on where you live, most mattresses require a prescription to be made chemical free, but wool usually doesn't.

After ten years, the mattress has compressed a bit in the center, as expected.  Part of this is my fault as I don't turn the mattress as often as I should.

The bedframe needs to let the mattress breath, so slatted wood or rope frames are most common.  The mattress fits on an Ikea bed frame just fine.  I have a simple, unfinished pine one. 

At the shop where I bought the mattress, they had it displayed on tatami mats.  This was incredibly comfortable and if I had the money, I would most definitely use this for a sleeping platform.  Some of my most comfortable nights have been on a thin cotton or wool mattress on tatami mats.  Or even just a blanket between the mat and myself were enough for a delightful sleep - I like a firm mattress whenever possible.

One of the most important things with a natural bedding mattress is that you fold down your covers each morning so that the mattress can breath.  DON'T make your bed first thing.  If you MUST make your bed for one reason or another, than do so after breakfast.


Other mattresses I've tried are wool and straw ticks that we use for medieval recreation.  This is very different than the Shepherd's dream mattress.  These are basically a sack of duck cloth that are stuffed with straw or wool that has been fluffed up.  After a couple of nights, the contents need to be repositioned a little, but it's not much more bother than fluffing a pillow - especially if you have the special mattress fluffing stick.  With straw, one usually needs to change the filling every year or 6 months.  With wool, every year or two. 



Similar to ranson, we have a latex mattress for our kidsbunk bed and I use afuton type cotton mattress  with wool of 4" inch, it sits on a separate flat surface bed besides our king bed. When the back pain flares, I sleep on this .. it helps to some extent.

Besides this the best remedy is Yoga, search for ramdev backpain yoga in YouTube.. is what ancient sages did.
 
Posts: 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I just sleep on a comforter blanket, on a rug, on the ground. I hang it up every few days to air it out, and fold it up on the other days. It took me a day or two to get used to, and now I've been using it for a few months without any issues.
 
Posts: 3
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
How about pine needles? I used to love camping in pine forests because we could make a pile of pine needles and put the tent on top of that. It also kept us off the damp ground. The sample lasted all summer. Also filled a large burlap sack to make a dog bed. We would refill at the beginning of each summer and the dog was comfy all year.
 
Posts: 42
5
bee books cooking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Buckwheat hulls hold a different energy than wheat bran. Buckwheat hulls have a slightly downward energy, grounding, relaxing, calming. Additionally, because of the shape of buckwheat hulls, they don't compact. They will form to any shape and depending upon the container shape, will hold the position you put them in.

Make sure you get organic buckwheat hulls, otherwise they are sprayed just like any other crop.

Buckwheat hull pillows are the best. You can easily sew them yourself, sew a tube and two circles about 9 inches in diameter., 14 - 20" in length. Only fill about 3/4 to 7/8th full. Sew strong seams. Under your neck for back sleeping or bunched up for side sleeping.  Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz . . . . .
 
Posts: 261
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jordan Lowery wrote:Most of the year I sleep in my mayan hammock. It's large and comfortable. And in the morning it gets hooked to the wall. A benefit to people living in small spaces. It's made from all natural fibers.



I've sleep many a night on my own "mayan" hammock.  There is a trick to it that doesn't work for the American style hammock with spreader bars.  The mayan type don't have spreaders, and will swaddle you.  It's quite comfortable as long as your sleeping space isn't too cold, because it is hard to insulate the bottom of the hammock.  Excellent for warmer seasons, and easy on a bad back if done correctly.   Sit in the center of the hammock, pull the far side up over your back an onto your head, then twist your sitting position one direction so that you are about 30 degrees off of center of the hammock, then stretch out your legs inside of the hammock fabric.  You will be almost flat with one side of the hammock higher up your face and the other side of the hammock higher up the side of your legs.  Feels a bit odd at first, but it's easy to get used to.  Getting out at night to use the restroom is harder than a mattress, however.  And getting comfortable enough to sleep with another human being is next to impossible.  If used nightly, they last about a year or two, but will certainly be cheaper overall than a new mattress.
 
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I Just sent my sheep's wool to http://www.zwool.com/ to have wool pillows made for all my kids for Christmas. I know this thread is about mattresses, but pillows go with them. lol I never dream, thought, or even wondered about wool pillows, but after seeing, handling, and even squeezing one of their pillows at a fiber festival I knew that I had to change my wool order from comforter batting to pillows. I plan on getting more made for my husband and me. Yes, these could be made yourself, but I am extra busy right now and running behind which is the reason for sending my wool to them in the first place and not processing it myself. They are willing to make them whatever weight you would like the pillow.  I might have to get their wool mattress pads at some point. 
 
this is supposed to be a surprise, but it smells like a tiny ad:
Thread Boost feature
https://permies.com/wiki/61482/Thread-Boost-feature
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!