Good Permie Cars...

I'll probably keep my Civic and get the necessary repairs done, and drive it for maybe another 50k miles. By then I'll have sold my property here and purchased another one, spending more and more time in Africa, and thus I'll be driving less in Spain, but I'll be able to upgrade my Civic to a newer car: Ford Tourneo Connect with either a 1.0 og 1.5 litre petrol engine properly maintained and cared for would probably suit me well as a family car, work car, and a camping car for the occasional road trip.

If some manufacturer comes out with compressed air cars, I'll definitely be up for that!

I think the best permie car is the one someone else is taking in the same direction you want to go.

I have never ridden one, but I have always thought that for a single person or couple, a motorcycle seems like a good option for efficiency. There is so much less bulk to it than to a car. I also believe that one should have adequate winter clothing as a rule (which for many might make certain forms of transport more daunting). I assume you could reasonably attach a trailer to it for hauling sawdust, wood, manure, etc. around.

I don’t really believe there are any convincingly “better” cars environmentally speaking. It seems to me like trying to have your cake and eat it too. I do think we can radically cut down on our transportation needs by living sanely, using our brains and being prepared, especially in winter time.

I wonder if an aircar might work for you....

https://scienceandspacenews.com/2025/06/03/flying-cars-are-coming-in-2026-all-you-need-to-know-about-the-aircar/

This site says their golf carts are available in the USA in 2025.

https://zeropollutionmotors.us/

Interesting discussion.
I charge my EV at home with a Level 2 240V, powered by grid-tied solar (87% of our total household consumption is solar over the year).
Off grid, daytime solar can support Level 1 120V, drawing about 1500 W.  Level 1 is slow, so offgrid feasibility depends upon use-case.
The fix-it-yourself arguments for locally common older cars are strong, but going forward both EV & ICE cars are becoming complicated.
And in my climate, most consumer vehicles older than 15 y rust out including, sadly, my previous Honda CRV.

Thumbs up for a Honda Fit/Jazz, one of our previous favourite cars, although a bit dinky in backroad snow.
I was tempted by the Chev Silverado EV WT, or Ford Lightning F150; quiet power stations on wheels for remote use, but mileage per kW is poor and charging is long.

Douglas Campbell wrote:Interesting discussion.
I charge my EV at home with a Level 2 240V, powered by grid-tied solar (87% of our total household consumption is solar over the year).
Off grid, daytime solar can support Level 1 120V, drawing about 1500 W.  Level 1 is slow, so offgrid feasibility depends upon use-case.
The fix-it-yourself arguments for locally common older cars are strong, but going forward both EV & ICE cars are becoming complicated.
And in my climate, most consumer vehicles older than 15 y rust out including, sadly, my previous Honda CRV.

Thumbs up for a Honda Fit/Jazz, one of our previous favourite cars, although a bit dinky in backroad snow.
I was tempted by the Chev Silverado EV WT, or Ford Lightning F150; quiet power stations on wheels for remote use, but mileage per kW is poor and charging is long.

there are lots of newer grid tied solar inverters coming online now that support high voltage dc charging or at the very least can support a level 2 charger.
Cheers,  David

Les Frijo wrote:I wonder if an aircar might work for you....

Gyrocopters/gyroplanes. I would go for this James Bondian contraption.

If the wind is just right, you are stationary in the air just like the
Antonov AN-2 and might even "fly" backwards.

Hi David;
The newer inverters can handle the output, but  would need a large  PV array to drive Level 2  @7200 W charging offgrid.

Current EV car batteries are ~~ 75 kWh capacity, so require ~~ 10 h of Level 2 @ 7200 W for complete charging; ~ 10%/h charge to the EV.

A sizable offgrid PV array of 7000 W nominal  might take ~ 10 h of full sun to fully charge an EV battery.

In contrast, Level 1 charging at ~1500 W can often run for ~ 5 h/day from an 7000 W offgrid PV array, in parallel with domestic usage, giving about 2% charge/h or 10% day to the EV.

This all comes from my experience.
At home, with grid tie solar; Level 2 charging generally outruns our instantaneous PV (11400 kW nominal).
At an offgrid place (6700 kW nominal PV) we use Level 1 to gain ~ 10% EV charge daily, once the domestic battery bank is full.

A large offgrid battery bank is ~ 30 kWh capacity, so charging the 75 kWh car from an offgrid  battery bank would drain it in less than a day, but it is useful to even out cloudy patches etc. during charges.

This comes down to use cases, adjusting from 'Drive to the gas station on empty and get 600 km of range for ~$75'.
~ 5 h of Level 1 is sufficient for most users, most days, to get back  ~ 40 km or so.
~ 10 h of Level 2 gives the convenience of a 'fill up' over night or in a day, ~ 400 km or so.
Level 3 is (often) expensive but only used on road trips, ~ 300 km in ~ 30 min or so.
Pee break plus snacks.

Some people drive 100's of km a day and have no /limited charging infrastructure, and large bladders :)
But most people do not.
cheers Doug

This gyro doesn't need a runway. First time I have come across this BUT
you need a quarter of a million dollars.

gyrocopter

With all this talk of flying cars, why not bring up hot air balloons too?

Hi John Weiland,

I just realized that you asked me a question on the 5th that I didn’t respond to.   According to the reviews I have read, Nissan makes one of the least reliable CVTs out there.  My Murano has about 150,000 miles on it.  Life expectancy for the Nissan CVT is somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 miles.  Replacement cost is more than the value of my car.  Most of my miles, by far, were interstate.  So, I am willing to roll the dice for another few years.

For those wondering, according to the reviews I have read (I monitor Edmunds, Car and Driver, Motor Trend, etc) the general opinion is Nissan’s CVTs are getting better, but it is felt there are better ones out there.  

Of course, we are playing with stats. And stats can be tricky when broken down to individual cases.  I might buy a vehicle with a transmission where 98% manufactured were on the road after 200,000 miles.  Gee, that is only a 2% chance of failure. But, if the one I buy falls apart at 50,000 miles, then the failure rate for me is 100%.

An aircar might just be perfect given that I hold a pilot license

You can find a surprisingly wide variety of imported kei trucks...  just got me one of these.

They are the Swiss army knives of small farm vehicles. You can get them registered in most states. You can drive them around the farm like a side by side.  You can flip it into 4 wheel drive and go off in the bush.  You can cart around small animals. You can quiver in fear as you floor it to go 40mph on a busy highway as 18 wheelers fly by going 70.

Douglas Campbell wrote:And in my climate, most consumer vehicles older than 15 y rust out including, sadly, my previous Honda CRV.

I presume that you're referring to salt-facilitated rust. I'm in rural Ottawa and don't have any ocean spray, so road salt is the only rust promoter here. My 17 year-old Hyundai Elantra has non-rusting plastic for some of the most rust-prone body parts, but the main thing that has kept it practically free of rust is annual rustproofing oil spray.

Yes, road salt x salt spray x >50 freeze thaw per year; cars soak in liquid brine for months.
On frame pickups may last a bit longer than unibody.

M Ljin wrote:With all this talk of flying cars, why not bring up hot air balloons too?

PSA hot air balloons are counter-intuitive as was the case with
        Chrysler's turbine engine.

I wouldn't suggest this unless I can understand this video.

M Ljin wrote:I think the best permie car is the one someone else is taking in the same direction you want to go.

I have never ridden one, but I have always thought that for a single person or couple, a motorcycle seems like a good option for efficiency. There is so much less bulk to it than to a car. I also believe that one should have adequate winter clothing as a rule (which for many might make certain forms of transport more daunting). I assume you could reasonably attach a trailer to it for hauling sawdust, wood, manure, etc. around.

I don’t really believe there are any convincingly “better” cars environmentally speaking. It seems to me like trying to have your cake and eat it too. I do think we can radically cut down on our transportation needs by living sanely, using our brains and being prepared, especially in winter time.

Yes, I do think, the most “permie car” is one that is used less, shared among more people. Walking and biking are more eco-friendly. For a disabled or sick person, a rickshaw ride would work. Canoes are good too. Although, nowadays things tend to be spread out to the point where it’s hard to live totally without cars. It’s definitely true, by being prepared and localizing economic activity, the need for cars can be done away with. But, it’s not always straightforward. And it takes collective effort.

I never thought this would be possible in my lifetime - a gyro runway measured in inches!

It is probably North of 200 grand.

Douglas Campbell wrote:Hi David;
The newer inverters can handle the output, but  would need a large  PV array to drive Level 2  @7200 W charging offgrid.

Current EV car batteries are ~~ 75 kWh capacity, so require ~~ 10 h of Level 2 @ 7200 W for complete charging; ~ 10%/h charge to the EV.

A sizable offgrid PV array of 7000 W nominal  might take ~ 10 h of full sun to fully charge an EV battery.

In contrast, Level 1 charging at ~1500 W can often run for ~ 5 h/day from an 7000 W offgrid PV array, in parallel with domestic usage, giving about 2% charge/h or 10% day to the EV.

This all comes from my experience.
At home, with grid tie solar; Level 2 charging generally outruns our instantaneous PV (11400 kW nominal).
At an offgrid place (6700 kW nominal PV) we use Level 1 to gain ~ 10% EV charge daily, once the domestic battery bank is full.

A large offgrid battery bank is ~ 30 kWh capacity, so charging the 75 kWh car from an offgrid  battery bank would drain it in less than a day, but it is useful to even out cloudy patches etc. during charges.

This comes down to use cases, adjusting from 'Drive to the gas station on empty and get 600 km of range for ~$75'.
~ 5 h of Level 1 is sufficient for most users, most days, to get back  ~ 40 km or so.
~ 10 h of Level 2 gives the convenience of a 'fill up' over night or in a day, ~ 400 km or so.
Level 3 is (often) expensive but only used on road trips, ~ 300 km in ~ 30 min or so.
Pee break plus snacks.

Some people drive 100's of km a day and have no /limited charging infrastructure, and large bladders :)
But most people do not.
cheers Doug

Hi Doug,
I am not in anyway doubting your math. I'll stick to off grid and level 2 charging. One of the realities of modern off grid solar is the lowering of the cost of solar arrays and the increase of the size of arrays people are installing. It is not uncommon now for me to quote out a 9600w solar array for an offgrid design that only starts out with 15kWh of energy storage. The arrays are now built to meet all energy needs most of the time even into late fall, early spring.  So on sunny days you sometimes end up even in the winter with huge solar surpluses that you cannot store well. Traditionally the lead acid banks limited excess solar due to slow charge rates and absorb cycles. But now 1.5-2 hrs of sun and the home bank is charged. Some people are upgrading their banks ,and I expect to see more of this, but most are letting this surplus go. So Using a level 2 charger becomes a good option. As you know you can tune them up or down in charge rate to adjust how much power they use per hour. It becomes a good way to absorb all the surplus solar available to you on sunny days in a short time when the home bank is full. The reality of lithium is the array goes from full charging to nothing in a matter of minutes as opposed to the slow decline in wattage you saw in lead acid systems. Level 1 charging makes perfect sense in a lead acid scenario off grid. Level 2 charging becomes a way of increasing your storage potential on sunny days. Most of the off grid inverters I'm installing these days have a way to divert power when the home bank is full to loads such as a hot water tank or say a level 2 charger for the very purpose of surplus absorption. Personally we have not gone the EV route due to costs and existing vehicles. When I kill the work SUV after a long life of good maintenance I hope it will be replaced by a plug in hybrid. When the micra dies, if it ever does, I expect we will be ready to have an all electric replacement for it. My point was just that in an off grid scenario you have huge peaks and valleys in solar production A heavy load like a level 2 would be a great tool for flattening the curve. There are tonnes of conditions to all that of course but the main points hold true.
Cheers,  David Baillie

I have a first gen ‘09 Honda ridgeline and it is very reliable. I heard the second gen Honda crv is the best gen. Different vehicles have different generations that represent the best version of the vehicle and most companies have a year where everything started going downhill. If you get an older diesel truck (thinking pre 2005) it will not only be reliable but you may be able to run biodiesel or straight old frying oil with a conversion kit. Some of the older vehicles won’t even need the conversion kit you just mix some regular diesel with the oil.

Nick Mick wrote:I have a first gen ‘09 Honda ridgeline and it is very reliable. I heard the second gen Honda crv is the best gen.

Honda Ridgeline is my dream car! Hard to find one here in Spain. Perhaps I could look in other EU countries and import

Edward you've given me a lot of food for thought, especially compression technology, thank you!

Eric, a lot of considerations for EV. I guess it depends on someone's situation.
I have a mechanic friend of my son's generation who criticizes that the Tesla cars having problems, you can't even open the door to pop the hood. That kinda scared me off even learning more about them!

Hi has anyone here used BYD blade batteries in their solar systems? I’m curious about it

Here’s the link I’m looking at , it say the cycle life can 10000+ times.
https://cmxbattery.com/product/48v-7kwh-byd-blade-slim-lithium-solar-home-battery-for-home-energy-storage/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

in my mind, BYD Blade battery is used for car, now can be used for Solar home power?

Jackie, with a working temperature range of -10-60C (14F-140) and storage range above 0 (32F)  I would expect it to die quickly from abuse in my climate. It's a big reason I am holding out for alternative battery technologies.

Came to this thread purely out of curiosity whether anyone would mention the Honda Fit, and it seems a handful did! Cool to see.

I drive a 2013 Fit with a manual transmission, and while I have no opinion on whether it’s a “permie” car (you can *fit* anything in it, but I wouldn’t want to have to drive it around a farm, so maybe it’s perfect for the non-homesteader permie?) I think it’s the greatest car I’ve ever had.

Fit (called Jazz in Europe and maybe some other markets) had 3 or 4 generations. Mine is gen2 and that’s my favorite; optimal in terms of fuel economy, cargo space, and looks.

I understand your concern, that’s a valid point. In colder climates, proper enclosure, insulation, and temperature management are critical for lithium batteries. Some systems handle this well with built-in heating or climate-controlled installations, but exploring alternative battery technologies for your environment definitely makes sense

Ra Kenworth wrote:Jackie, with a working temperature range of -10-60C (14F-140) and storage range above 0 (32F)  I would expect it to die quickly from abuse in my climate. It's a big reason I am holding out for alternative battery technologies.

EVs have the potential to get cleaner and cleaner.
The more that are in use, the less emissions from that part of their infrastructure.
Electric vehicles can be  involved in harvesting materials for construction or delivering finished vehicles and parts.
The static infrastructure like refineries and factory lines might also be run on solar electric.

We can clean up the emissions of  IC infrastructure as well,but IC vehicules will always be burning something and conventional IC vehicles will be burning oil products, the extraction, distribution and refinement of which all produce their own pollutants.

I think it will be a lot harder to get the oil industry to run their refineries off of solar electric than it will be to get a battery manufacturer to run their factory of the same source.

I've worked at a coal fired power plant, a gas fired power plant and a metro sized solar power installation.
If the three, the solar installation would make the best neighbor.
Not so much due to emissions, more due to traffic.

The coal plant needed a constant stream of vehicles not only delivering fuel,  but also everything else that goes into maintain in such a power plant.
It has lots of moving parts, coolants and lubricants are involved.
It employs  a lot of people.

The gas plant also needed a lot of tending, but it at least receives it's fuel via pipeline.
It's gas turbine design, so lots of moving parts, coolants and lubricants are involved.
It was originally built as a "peaker" plant, to cover  periods of high electricity demand , but with fracking, natural gas got (monetarily) cheaper so it runs all the time now.
It employs  a lot of people.

The solar power installation needs  maintenance but no fuel.
No moving parts, so no built in wear, no need for lubricants or coolants.
The panels should be kept clean and the grass needs to stay short.
Some places mow and some use sheep or goats.
I think humans are required for the squeegee work, but not that many, so it should not employ a lot of people.

The misery of an exploited workforce seems to be part of all forms of advanced transportation technology.



My ideal vehicle would be a plug in hybrid   panel van with an all electric 4x4 drivetrain.
Basically an Edison Motors "bread truck"


Realistically, I'm trying to get my wife into a newer used Honda Odyssey so I can claim the one she has now.
Minivans can  haul animals,vegetables, minerals,etc  or they can haul people, but the people complain about the smell, stains or occasionally, bugs that the cargo leaves behind in the van.
I in turn am annoyed at them treating the van like a living room instead of a wheeled workbench.

Hi David Baillie et al;
Yes I completely agree on using an EV to 'buffer' excess solar from large PV arrays.
That is more or less what we do at our offgrid site.
And, many current EV have vehicle to load, so go both ways if needed.
cheers Doug

Sam Shade wrote:You can find a surprisingly wide variety of imported kei trucks...  just got me one of these.

They are the Swiss army knives of small farm vehicles. You can get them registered in most states. You can drive them around the farm like a side by side.  You can flip it into 4 wheel drive and go off in the bush.  You can cart around small animals. You can quiver in fear as you floor it to go 40mph on a busy highway as 18 wheelers fly by going 70.

Sam,
Where did you purchase your KEI? Price?

This is the type of vehicle I would be most interested in, although may not be able to license to drive on all Oregon roads yet

randal cranor wrote:

Sam Shade wrote:You can find a surprisingly wide variety of imported kei trucks...  just got me one of these.

They are the Swiss army knives of small farm vehicles. You can get them registered in most states. You can drive them around the farm like a side by side.  You can flip it into 4 wheel drive and go off in the bush.  You can cart around small animals. You can quiver in fear as you floor it to go 40mph on a busy highway as 18 wheelers fly by going 70.

Sam,
Where did you purchase your KEI? Price?

This is the type of vehicle I would be most interested in, although may not be able to license to drive on all Oregon roads yet

I found mine on Facebook marketplace. Cost me $7k, so not exactly cheap for a 25+ year old vehicle, but that's a pretty typical price for one with a state title in my area (TN). You can get them cheaper if you are willing to do more paperwork.

But I love it. Can go anywhere except the freeway.

Saw a ton of 'keis' in Korea visiting my xchange student daughter. not my thing at all, far too small, but they have their place. Just maybe not out here. My 'neighbor' is selling his, too light, no 4x4. There is one in Smithers, B.C., imported fire truck, very, very cool.
My bush truck is a full size, Dodge 2500, extended cab, 4x4. Hydraulic dump box, 18k rear winch, air compressor, inverter, dual battery. Brings the tools to the work, gets me anywhere outback, all winter. Hauls/pulls whatever needs moved, has yet to fail any task.
For something more 'permie' we have four of these:

'94-'97 Mitsubishi Delicas, L400s. Newer, roomier, body style from the old L300s, pre-'98 seem to have less complicated computer setups. Turbocharged 4cyl. diesel, decent power, well, sort of. 4x4s have a center locking differential, some have limited slip axles. Does well in the snow out here, decent fuel mileage. The Jasper model pictured has seats that layflat for a bed, interior curtains, simple camping setup. Seats can be removed for a surprisingly large cargo area. We have an extended wheelbase version with almost pickup truck room.
Downside is finding a van this old from Japan with no rust, must be a very salty island. If you are not mechanically inclined, parts and repairs are a problem, never imported to N.A. Like the keis, they lack a US style VIN, some states are refusing to register them. +25 yrs old eases import restrictions.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the old cooking oil conversion diesel cars yet. Conversion kits can be a bit expensive if you don't make them yourself, but providing you are using old, filtered & recycled oil from fast food places then you're reducing waste for every mile you drive!

There used to be a local legend where I grew up who converted a diesel VW Polo and had an agreement with all the local restaurants to pick up their used oil.

The main downside was that he always smelt like chips (fries)... That being said, some might consider that a perk! 😂

Sure. I've asked locally about cookin' oil. Does not necessarily play well with extreme cold, not as bad as the home distilled stuff, but none of my rancher acquaintances will consider it. I've never seen a preheater system in use, would be curious.
A couple of the RainbowFamily tree planting itinerants that camp out around here every Spring have been known to use it.
The owner of the local resort had a fellow from the northside of the big lake, that would take it and use it. I asked about the stash of used oil he was then accumulating. He told me his outlet friend had a hungry black bear that had broken into his stash, and what he did not eat, he demolished, leaving a smelly pond of goo in his barn, forcing him to run the persistent bear off a couple times.
He lost interest in used cooking oil after that.

Tommy Bolin wrote:  but none of my rancher acquaintances will consider it.  
A couple of the RainbowFamily tree planting itinerants that camp out around here every Spring have been known to use it.
 

Jay Leno has the only surviving Chrysler Turbine engine car that runs off anything
that can be burnt - perfume, liquor . . . . . . . and used cooking oil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9yUv3uObQ4?t=139

Tommy Bolin wrote:He told me his outlet friend had a hungry black bear that had broken into his stash, and what he did not eat, he demolished, leaving a smelly pond of goo in his barn, forcing him to run the persistent bear off a couple times.

Good to know that black bears are just as weak to the smell of deep fried foods as humans are!

Edward Lye wrote: Jay Leno has the only surviving Chrysler Turbine engine car that runs off anything
that can be burnt - perfume, liquor . . . . . . . and used cooking oil.

My dad took us to an AirForce gunnery range at Cuddeback, Calif. when we were kids for a squadron gunnery 'turkey shoot' competition. My brother and I sat up in the range tower with the scorekeepers and watched the show.
F-105s blazing by about 400kts at eye level maybe 70yds away, and the rrrrrip of a 20mm Vulcan cannon stick with a 12 year old.

At the picnic afterward, my brother and I wandered over to the range firehouse. The airmen were quite proud of their huge off road firetrucks they said would run off of any liquid that could be burnt, JP4, diesel, or even JackDaniels.