Raw Food, Veganism and Calorie Restriction

Do you still have RA? That is something common for people to get over with diet changes. Considering your allergies and that it is clear your system is reactive to things it views as threats and overreacts. There are things that can be done to get immune systems in balance (namely not eating many things). Non-secretors are much more likely to exhibit RA at a young age as well... I wish you would entertain the idea of trying something new to get rid of RA, but... it could require eating things you would not (meat). I wouldn't ask for a lifetime commitment, but a trial would be entertaining if you wanted to be a true skeptic of an individualized lifestyle help guide (not really just a diet).

I think the studies for insulin resistance might be fine but your interpretation was just a tiny bit off in placing chronology, is all. Triglycerides are a sign of pre-diabetes but by no means actually required for insulin resistance. Insulin resistance also doesn't have to have anything to do with producing too much insulin. You could word it more like, "Too much fatty acids in the blood acts as a block for proper insulin and glucose usage, resulting in a state of insulin resistance in the presence of excessive fatty acids. Prolonged insulin resistance may contribute to a pre-diabetic state where the pancreas beings to produce too much insulin to try and compensate for elevated levels of blood sugar." Synchronicity may occur, but by no means are these things a holarchy for everyone. The medical community just tries to use as many markers as it can that are related; but they don't deny sometimes there are no signs then boom it is true!

Animals that eat plants also eat the insects. Insects have B12.

Intrinsic factor describes the action, but value is the relation to being enough or too little for proper health. You don't see a connection between raw meat and B12 problems? What do you think is easier to digest and takes less stomach acid? It is cooked meat. Raw meat is very hard to digest by comparison. The benefits to eating many raw things just doesn't apply to meat. It is these fallacies in philosophy over science that totally turn me away from believing a whole concept to any diet that uses such an override, and interested in one that accounts for everything. My point about how our stomachs function is that we can't ferment bacteria like animals that don't consume anything but plants. When human are healthy stuff passes too quick. The bacteria on plants doesn't give B12 instantly. If you have studied ungulates at all you would know many have strange abilities to stop digestion in order to run away from predators, and restart, because it takes them so long to get what they need. They actually feed themselves more by the bacteria they ferment in stomach/s and chewing cud than they get out of the plant themselves (to the best of our understanding). It takes awhile... Again I am not saying humans can't benefit from this at all but the expectation for survival on it is lacking compared to other animals (such as ungulates).

When I say sugar I meant table sugar, corn syrup, that stuff. I consumed primarily complex carbohydrates. None of my cooking involved adding oils. I ate little to no nuts. I lose weight more effectively not exercising than exercising vigorously, while also eating well for me. I feel better if I get some easy to moderate exercise though. I can literally feel when I reach the limit of what my body wants. It is not a high limit but exceeding it means I feel worse for the rest of the day as opposed to better. If I had to run 13 miles I could, if I was wearing the right shoes, though.

I seriously doubt my bones would of or ever have changed due to exercise. They are nice and strong regardless. (I am strangely durable) For someone else it is a different story, I am sure. There are certain people that exhibit bone marrow issues. Most people also misunderstand calcium. Milk products a poor way to get calcium as I am sure you know, but something left out of the alternative world is that many people won't release the enzymes in quantifiable amounts, to absorb it from plant material without animal protein at the same time.

Ha... I don't enjoy killing things at all. Even as a child I hated when kids abused crickets. My respect for life is immense, and that is what gives such profound value to eating other creatures. You have also belittled the value of life and health to a self contained person only reflecting on themselves which just is not the case particularly often. I find people offensive that take meat for granted. Even though I recommend some people eat it often, I do not recommend they eat till they pop buttons on their shirt every time. I see it as a great way to support local farmers and industry - especially the ones that are bio dynamic so the animals nurture the land. They also get to nurture their bodies at the same time so they become a vast benefit to themselves and those around them. Gathering didn't produce astounding amounts of nutrients. It was not just a winter thing. It was a lot better for Native Americans than eating corn (which marks the introduction of common disease among them). The interesting part might be though, that paleo people ate less than people do today (well at least given a national average). Have you ever hunted or anything?

By sheer numbers of generous allowances of meat consumption, based on genetic percentages, in the U.S.A., if everyone followed what I would call a healthy plan... 600,000,000 lbs of meat consumed could be cut by incredible numbers. You believe that is how much meat people in the US eat per year? That is based on the average of 200lbs a year. A lot of people don't even eat near that, or any... some people are making up for the rest of us! Anyway not even including the amount of wasted meat, that figure could be cut by at the very least 360,000,000 lbs before accounting for waste, how many people would still eat less, and who would abstain anyway. That is based just purely on genetic qualities of ability to even digest the stuff. I calculated it to have a vastly good allowance that most people wouldn't even need to fully use. We have at the very least 360 million ENTIRELY unnecessary lbs of meat consumption. Talk about a way to cut down on green house gases...

Kull Conquered wrote:Do you still have RA? That is something common for people to get over with diet changes. Considering your allergies and that it is clear your system is reactive to things it views as threats and overreacts. There are things that can be done to get immune systems in balance (namely not eating many things). Non-secretors are much more likely to exhibit RA at a young age as well... I wish you would entertain the idea of trying something new to get rid of RA, but... it could require eating things you would not (meat). I wouldn't ask for a lifetime commitment, but a trial would be entertaining if you wanted to be a true skeptic of an individualized lifestyle help guide (not really just a diet).

I didn't get allergies until the year after I applied herbicide to weeds and came in contact with both the weeds and the herbicide. I have a theory that is similar to the way adjuvants work in vaccines which goes something like this: my body reacted to the poison (herbicide) and built an immune response to it, yet rather than targeting the poison, it was tricked into thinking it was the weed that was causing the alarm and thus built a response to the weed. Some people claim that for example the squalene in vaccines causes similar autoimmune diseases in a similar manner to what I described. If that's the case it could also describe RA.

I'll look into getting a secretor status test. I do not see how meat in any way would help with RA. Before I started a raw vegan diet (let me be fair though, I will steal bites of food from the kids and that sometimes is meat) I ate what most people would consider to be fairly healthy.

RA is complicated. It doesn't sound like meat may help. It depends. The reason it can help with RA is because it balances gut flora in some people. A reduction of antibodies being created because of bad gut flora ramping up the immune system will help to dwindle, to entirely remove, the RA symptoms. A friend of mine had RA since 17 (diagnosed) but it is gone/unnoticeable now for her since she stopped eating certain things. Wheat was the biggest offender for her, then dairy. (blood type O)

Your immune system is likely over active because it doesn't know how to remove the toxins in your body very effectively (if it even can). It might make antibodies against some thing as very low levels, but may not if it was over the whole toxification. Plus just to note, not everything triggers an allergic response. You will almost never have an allergic response if antibody production is not too high. Allergic reactions are when there are too many antibodies.

How does cilantro taste to you? Soapy?

Secretor test is good, but also you can be lewis typed too. (unfortunately if you are a-b- lewis, it will not tell you secreter status, but lucky enough people that are respond to non-secretor concerns usually)

You don't get colds often do you?

Kull Conquered wrote:RA is complicated. It doesn't sound like meat may help. It depends. The reason it can help with RA is because it balances gut flora in some people. A reduction of antibodies being created because of bad gut flora ramping up the immune system will help to dwindle, to entirely remove, the RA symptoms. A friend of mine had RA since 17 (diagnosed) but it is gone/unnoticeable now for her since she stopped eating certain things. Wheat was the biggest offender for her, then dairy. (blood type O)

Your immune system is likely over active because it doesn't know how to remove the toxins in your body very effectively (if it even can). It might make antibodies against some thing as very low levels, but may not if it was over the whole toxification. Plus just to note, not everything triggers an allergic response. You will almost never have an allergic response if antibody production is not too high. Allergic reactions are when there are too many antibodies.

I'll say that I don't have particularly severe RA. Yesterday and today is the first time in over a year where it has actually been painful to the point of causing distress. Most of the time it's not noticeable. If I do anything really high impact is generally what will trigger pain the next day.

Kull Conquered wrote:How does cilantro taste to you? Soapy?

I eat it, it's definitely not my favorite green but it does not taste like soap.

Kull Conquered wrote:You don't get colds often do you?

I just got my first one in around 20 months, and that is for someone who traveled overseas frequently and has two young kids always bringing things home.

I am glad it doesn't taste like soap to you. People that have that complaint, it often goes away after eating it. There is no way to know for sure but it is thought to be a metal toxicity. It is still good to consume it regularly.

Great thread! Great info! Our family went vegan nearly a year ago and we love it...even the kids. The hard part is being around extended family...dairy and GMO farmers on all sides.

The only upside to that is every single one of our family members are sick in some way or other and our problems have been steadily disappearing. I take our health very seriously and have not stopped researching and studying. I was a bit late this year, but next year even my garden will be planted based on nutrient intake, instead of merely taste. Live by example.


***Also, a comment was made earlier about the pet issue. We believe in rescuing animals that would otherwise be killed from an animal shelter and letting them live out their life in safety. Right now we only have a small dog and a cat, but someday would like a large enough piece of land to rescue more animals and let them live out their lives as freely as possible.

Paul talks to Josh, a raw foodist homesteader in Monroe, WA about his north-facing slope piece of land. podcast 109

They talk at the end about Josh's raw diet.

Suzy Bean wrote:Paul talks to Josh, a raw foodist homesteader in Monroe, WA about his north-facing slope piece of land. podcast 109

They talk at the end about Josh's raw diet.

Stupid Question: Is this on Itunes yet? I am not getting podcast 108 or 109.

I find this an interesting thread (although frankly there are far too many pictures of topless men; topless women - feel free to even things up)

I am doing the paleo thing, and the results that I am seeing are fantastic - I am loosing fat, and gaining muscle. By the same token, my brother is a vegetarian (not vegan) and has been for around 20 years; he is very fit, and very healthy.

So here's a unifying theory for y'all to think about. People that make a lifestyle change (as opposed to "doing <insert fad diet here> for a month") pay close attention to what they eat. I am sure that all the buff lookin' dudes in this thread probably eat fresh, locally grown (organic?) food, and probably take care in its preparation - carefully choosing condiments based on their particular practices. I know since going paleo, I have stopped eating a lot of sauces because they contain wheat (sweet soy was probably my favourite, but the same goes for BBQ sauce or ketchup), but those same sauces also contain loads of sugar.

The other thing is that people who care about their diet are probably more likely to exercise, either as a discrete activity or as part of a 'living lightly' lifestyle. I spent four hours scything my lawns yesterday. I believe the paleo diet has given me immense levels of energy and stamina that I have never experienced before, and as a result I really enjoy the feeling of hard work, and I also know that it will pay off in terms of better health and appearance (hey, I'm only human). In reality, at least a part of this must be psycological - I am eating something I think is better for me, therefore I feel better. Because I am not just calorie restricting a "normal" diet, I am not hungry all the time, therefore I am not irritable.

I have never done a vegetarian diet (much less a raw vegan diet!) but I suspect some of the same psychology could come into play.

plants have feelings, too: http://www.messagetoeagle.com/singingplants.php

I didn't read the whole thread, so sorry if this was mentioned...but a word of warning for all the vegans.

My parents have been vegan for the past 17 years or so and it was wonderful...it really turned their health around and they were like youngsters again. Many of the ailments that they had, supposedly incurable, were reversed and they no longer have symptoms of these. Both of my parents are elderly now~77 and 81~and still in good physical shape with no real health problems....

EXCEPT~now my father is in a nursing home partially due to a ongoing, irreversible damage to his brain from a B12 deficiency. Seems that older males don't respond well to B12 replacement therapy, particularly after the damage is done. He has ALZ-like symptoms that are not quite typical for ALZ but are classic for B12 deficiency dementia. What good is his wonderful physical condition now that he has lost his mind? Not much. He went to the nursing home via the mental hospital. When he arrived at the mental ward two years ago he could easily do 50 pushups, lift weights, out run a teenager ~barefoot, no less~ and it took 5 orderlies to pull this man off a 10 ft. barbwire-topped fence and subdue him. Now? Now he can barely shuffle down the hall or get up from a chair.

Now my mother is displaying the exact same symptoms but, guess what? Just like Dad, she refuses to doctor (one of the symptoms is irrational fears and she just happens to fear doctors now..just like my dad). Now, I'm not so fond of doctoring either but the only way this woman can adequately get B12 into her system is to start eating animal products or take B12 injections or nasal spray. Needless to say, she is adverse to eating anything from an animal after 17 years of veganism and knowing how much it did for her physical health.

But...now she too is losing her memories and her personality. I'm urging her to eat some eggs and I'm growing her some free ranged, organically grown meat chickens as we speak with the hopes of reversing this damage before it's too late but I fear the worst. I've even told her that she changed her diet years ago to help her health and it worked but now it's time to make another change and actually ingest some B12 rich foods~it only comes from animals, BTW. One day she will agree to do so but she forgets that she agreed to this and also now forgets that we even had the discussion about it~this used to be a woman with a steel trap mind, sharper than anyone I've ever met, could remember the smallest detail of things long ago but now can't remember things she has done all her life.

Please...if you are currently a vegan, please pay attention to this word of warning. Physical health is a great thing and I'm not knocking the raw vegan diet because it worked miracles for my parents and even helped me and my children as well. Though you may feel wonderful right now, keep in mind that the only source for B12 that your body can absorb or utilize is through consuming animal products such as meat, dairy, eggs, etc. or through B12 injections.

Be aware that blood tests taken in the US won't normally show a B12 deficiency until it is really extreme and, until that does show, you will have been living a long time with a B12 deficiency that may be damaging your brain, killing your memories, taking away your personality in such small increments so as to not be really noticeable until it is much too late.

I went from having parents who line danced several times a week, could jitter bug better than any young people and won a dance contest at a local college, used the tread climber every day, walked every day, lifted weights every day, jumped on the rebounder every day, went roller skating every Saturday, worked circles around all us younger folk and never had to go to the doctor...to having parents that know longer know their children or grand children, no longer know how to use tools, what today's date is or even what season it is outside.

No history of ALZ or age related dementia on either side of our family...we actually have great genes for longevity.

Raise your own meats and eggs and consume judiciously, I implore you, but please consume!

Sam Graci, author of multiple health books like "The power of Superfoods" and the formulator of many supplements like Greens + was recently in my hometown. I saw him at his lecture and was very happy to hear his comment on raw vs. vegetarian vs. vegan vs.'conventional.'

"Eat what you like and what keeps you healthy. Be thankful you have food!"

Stop arguing! Who cares what others eat? Mind your OWN diet.

Veganism is great if you've been a meat/dairy/fish eater for some time... that's because the body cannibalizes itself, and we can store a lot, for a long time. I was a vegan more or less for 9 years. In the first years I felt really great, and for me there was no question about it, veganism was the ultimate way. Then I started to make "mistakes", that is... eating non vegan food, not often, but still, and would feel very bad about it... I just could not help it... And it would happen quite regularly... I had sleeping disorders, couldn't concentrate, had mood swings , and guess what, these are the exact same symptoms so many other ex-vegans talk about. People react differently... but in general, you could say that veganism can create problems with the "head" lol... well, I am really serious actually, some vegan children have been noted to be less developped mentally for their age... That's because the brain does not get the nutrition it needs, in the long run. But you could go quite a few years without feeling bad.
I still think that most people eat too much meat/dairy etc... and it would be good for them to go vegan for some time, honestly.
But to say that it's THE way, the ONLY way etc... is just ignorant... And lets face it, I was feeling really bad in the end, not only mentally, emotionally, but also physically: teeth enamel very weak, always freezing and feeling cold, a gray colour in the face (often a sigh of lack of zinc, found mostly in meat).
But yes, there were good things with it. I had more energy in a way, but that energy was less focused and more confused, and I had constantly to deal with insomnia, which in the end became extreme.
It's easy in the "honeymoon" period to see veganism as the best way, but if it would be so good for you in the long run (and I am talking 15-20 year at least), how come there are so many ex-vegans talking about their stories...? Veganism has never existed in the world before, there are no vegan tribes, they all had some sort of animal food.
And guess what: vegans are not really vegans either, they do eat insect and insect eggs present in chocolate, noodles, juice, dried thyme/herbs etc... you'd be amazed how much critters are present in s c vegan food.
And, lets not forget the little b-12 problem... vegans depending on supplement, patches, shots... I don't know, doesn't it show that... something is ... missing?

Warren David wrote:

elspru wrote:
Though likely there is something the meat is eating,
with the right skill set can catch or grow it,
and thereby revert to a safer diet.

The lower on the food-chain,
the more there is of that food,
and the safer it is for consumption.

It's fairly easy to eat meat safely. Millions of people do it every day and the vast majority suffer no problems.
There is no need to be scared of food. You just need a little knowledge about food hygiene and you can probably get through life without poisoning yourself or others to death.

I get the impression that the calorie restriction scene is based on a calorie restriction experiment with mice?
I have read, slightly overweight people tend to live longer, healthier lives than anybody else so I'm really not so sure that under-eating really is best for health. Under eating certainly doesn't suit me so I would say it's not for everybody.

My health has come on leaps and bounds since cutting out all starches, limiting vegetables and virtually eliminating fruit while increasing meat and eggs. My way seems to be the best for me and from what I have read elsewhere there are other people having the same kind of benefits as me on the same kind of diet.

bodyfat is consistently shown to be an issue, especially abdominal bodyfat. overweight is an issue of a scale, not body composition.

being slightly overweight is what most amateur bodbuilders are, yet they are often barely double digits in bodyfat.


most studies i have ever seen show that being "overweight" is not good in any way. what is interesting is that I would guess that damn-near every person that would pose that as an argument has a good deal of abdominal fat... which is significantly associated with bad things. then they will say "but im just a bit overweight, so its okay!" when the study had nothing to do with FAT and everything to do with BMI/total weight of the person.

being fat and out of shape is bad, and this is proven so consistently in research. weight does not measure adiposity or fitness.