sour grapes; snake oil; corporate trolls

David Wieland wrote:
While I agree that there are some evil people (anti-humans), I can't see how they could regard permaculture as a threat.

I believe the bottom line is that permaculture equals freedom. Freedom from herb/pesticides, plastic overload, toxic houses, toxic food, toxic medicine, toxic jobs, etc. Permaculture is self-sufficiency. It eliminates countless middlemen skimming an opulent living off the work of others. There is no greater threat to those who wish to lord over others than the belief of the populace in freedom.

What is different now is that the situation in Europe has people's minds open to new ideas. Say a German's government says, "sorry, you will not have enough natural gas to keep warm this winter." That person has a choice: follow the law and possibly freeze, or break the law by installing an illegal heater and survive. In the end, most people historically have chosen to survive. If a million people do it, the government loses some of that control it used to make laws banning cheap, simple heat. Self-sufficient heat. Once the idea is planted, it is difficult to stop. It is truly in the interests of the powers that be to nip such things in the bud as early as possible.

David Wieland wrote:

Myron Platte wrote: There are some evil people out there, and rocket mass heaters are a major gateway to permaculture, which is the nemesis of the plans of these unnamed evil people. (Not being political. Just pro-human.)

While I agree that there are some evil people (anti-humans), I can't see how they could regard permaculture as a threat. I've gardened organically since the mid-1970s and subscribed to Organic Gardening magazine for years but wasn't even aware of permaculture until the last decade. I'm pretty sure that it's still a fringe endeavour in the big scheme of things.

It’s still fringe thanks to the efforts of these people paying trolls to suppress world-saving information on platforms like reddit. If not for the active attacks, permaculture would already have taken over. This is not to say that we should give up! On the contrary, we simply need to understand that at this point, we are fighting an information war, and that we need to put some effort into it. Paul is doing a lot, but one guy can only do so much. If everyone on permies did 1% of what Paul does to infect minds with permaculture, we could probably win the information war fairly quickly. Why? Because trolls have to be paid. But we are true believers. We are information warriors who never retreat. But that’s only true once we know it’s true, once we realize that this. Is. War. Overwhelm the trolls. Make one video, one informative comment, one meme every week, month, or year. Make some commitment and stick to it. That’s my 2 cents.

Myron Platte wrote:Overwhelm the trolls. Make one video, one informative comment, one meme every week, month, or year. Make some commitment and stick to it. That’s my 2 cents.

This is probably the most important thing we can all do. Just being here on permies, sharing information about what we're doing individually, what's worked or hasn't worked, what our plans are and how they change over time, and asking / answering questions - this has a HUGE impact that I can vouch for personally. When I started on this journey many years ago now, I "discovered" permaculture and immediately started the frenzied search for info. Back then, there was so little in practical, actual, hands-on demonstrated stuff that I had to just rely on theory alone...belief, if you will. I bought my little acreage and started "doing", shared what I was up to as I could, posted videos, outlines, plans and ideas, knowing full well that someone else out there was in the same boat I was - searching for practical, actual, hands-on demonstrated stuff :)  

Since that time, permies has grown and there are countless threads of real-world application of the principals, techniques and theory. I can't help but be proud that I was at least a tiny part of all that growth. Building a rocket mass heater, planting in complex polycultures, doing up simple roundwood timber frames with cobwood walls and a green roof, integrating animals into growing systems, performing some of the more major earthworks...these were all learning experiences that I shared, knowing the little bit I can share of what I'm already doing will be of some value to someone at some point. More of this is better! The ever growing base of information on this forum, as well as scattered all over the internet from youtube and odysee to podcasts and the blogosphere is exactly what we need to encourage. We need to flood the internet with more good ideas and practical applications of sound theory, drowning out all the pointless bickering and provably bad ideas.

Geoff Lawton's "all the world's problems can be solved in a garden" might not explicitly state it, but that garden sorta needs a camera if you expect it to do much good ;)  

And that garden, depending on climate, also likely needs a coppice firewood stand and some timber trees.

Yes, Tristan. Good point. I wasn’t even thinking of contributing on permies.com, but of course that’s super valuable. Specifically, I think the keyto spreading permaculture is to go on Twitter, Reddit, Facebook, Instagram, Quora etc. and post thought-provoking permaculture segues. Reference permies.com everywhere convenient. This is especially amazing if we can coordinate this: have a thread where people post links to posts on various platforms that need to be upvoted and shared into relevance. We have enough people to do this. All we need to do is get organized.

I'm a bit confused. I'm not a reddit user though I know folks who are, and have been steered there a few times to look up information. Sometimes it seemed helpful, others more like an adhd rabbit hole.
After reading all 3 pages of this thread I was curious to do a reddit search for 'rocket mass heater'. I found quite a bit, including recent posts by Paul like the happy thanksgiving freebies and a 2 year old Merry Christmas one. I did see where the bulk of the iama posts got removed but there's even a fragment of that. Overall though, I found dozens of threads (subreddits? I don't know the terms there) about RMHs. Even Chris (Uncle Mud) had a couple.
So was Paul's iama too high profile and attracted the wrong kind of attention? Or as someone suggested, did a 'negative review' algo kick in?
I don't know much about reddit so maybe I'm missing something.

Lots of posts go up and there is a bit of unkindness.  

This one post went up and it was clear that it pissed off a corporate troll farm.  

I think I now know why.  My post was about the european heating crisis and how rocket mass heaters would be a great solution.  It turns out that a bunch of american ships carrying natural gas went to europe and sold them all the natural gas they would need for ten times the regular price.  The government paid the extra cost. So people will still pay ten times more for natural gas, but it will be through taxes.

In that deal, the seller made a lot of money.  A lot of money they would not have made if people caught on to rocket mass heaters.

paul wheaton wrote:Lots of posts go up and there is a bit of unkindness.  

This one post went up and it was clear that it pissed off a corporate troll farm.  

I think I now know why.  My post was about the european heating crisis and how rocket mass heaters would be a great solution.  It turns out that a bunch of american ships carrying natural gas went to europe and sold them all the natural gas they would need for ten times the regular price.  The government paid the extra cost. So people will still pay ten times more for natural gas, but it will be through taxes.

In that deal, the seller made a lot of money.  A lot of money they would not have made if people caught on to rocket mass heaters.

Bingo.. the key word in self sufficiency is sufficiency. This is a battle of sufficiency versus scarcity. Keep up the good work!

David Wieland wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:
I start with the thought of "why don't more people know about rocket mass heaters?"  And now it is clear.  It is a threat to the profits of ...  somebody.  Somebody really big.

The trolling blowout you described is disturbing. Do you know of others who have experienced such a thing? It certainly sounds organized -- but by whom?

It doesn't seem plausible to me that any corporate "competition" would feel threatened enough to bother. It's puzzling, but I wonder if the troll storm was a test of a nefarious tactic for disrupting a social media platform and you were just a random target.

My reaction was similar to yours. While I’m normally extremely impatient with conspiracy theories, what Paul described sounded clearly organized, and I find that quite disturbing. And confusing. Who would really feel threatened by a conversation about RMH? In any case, whether the thread was targeted as a demonstration or because of the topic, the fact that someone had a team (or an algorithm) primed and ready for that attack is, again, really disturbing. But probably useful to know.

About three weeks later, the US shipped and sold a full winters worth of natural gas to europe at 10x the regular price.  Sounds like an extreme profit motivation.  If people learned about rocket mass heaters and started building them, then it could have had a dramatic cut in the profits of the shippers.

paul wheaton wrote:About three weeks later, the US shipped and sold a full winters worth of natural gas to europe at 10x the regular price.  Sounds like an extreme profit motivation.  If people learned about rocket mass heaters and started building them, then it could have had a dramatic cut in the profits of the shippers.

By US I’m guessing you mean a U.S. corporation? Would love to know which one but I guess these forums are too too public for that.

There were articles in the BBC about it a few months ago that cite references.  That's a good starting place to learn more about the fuel situation.  

The British are still pretty bitter about the UK/US relations during the last two world wars, so their news is quick to report this kind of price gouging on essential supplies like fuel.  

About 3-4 months ago we received a purchase order from Albania for 105 of our Gen 2 rocket heaters.

The British port authorities blocked the shipment from going through their country, even though they were not the intended customers, because they weren't tested/certified to meet European safety code standards.

The French port authorities did the same.

The Albanians investigated taking the cargo through Constantinople on account of the Muslim world not giving a flying hoot about those bureaucratic hindrances, but no insurance company would cover that shipment on account of there being a 50% cargo loss rate through the region (thieves).

So they just threw their hands up, said to heck with it, its obvious that European governments want their people to freeze to death, and so freeze to death they will. Not my choice of words.

Sandra Graham wrote:
Who would really feel threatened by a conversation about RMH? In any case, whether the thread was targeted as a demonstration or because of the topic, the fact that someone had a team (or an algorithm) primed and ready for that attack is, again, really disturbing. But probably useful to know.

It's not just about RMHs. Saving the environment is a very popular topic these days. Many aspects of people's lives are being changed or controlled by it (forceably). Yet virtually all of what we see of it is fluff. Remember when the big thing to do to save the world from inevitable destruction was to change all your lightbulbs to CFL's? We are shown famous, super-wealthy people bragging about the cool new green tech they are using to reduce their footprint (which is still an order of magnitude or two above the average person who is doing nothing to live more "green") while they speak down to everyone else for not doing enough. Yet things that create real, substantive change fall (or are pushed) to the wayside. I feel it is generally because those thing often involve buying less stuff. Less plastic. Less fuel. Less metal. Less chemicals. Less everything. Some people\industries gain to lose a lot of revenue if people really start changing. If history tells us anything, there is virtually no limit to what some people are willing to do to make more money.

Sandra Graham wrote: By US I’m guessing you mean a U.S. corporation? Would love to know which one but I guess these forums are too too public for that.

To be clear on the entire scenario, the anticipated shortage of natural gas in Europe and surrounding areas created a run up in futures prices (global market). There was no 'price gouging' specifically mentioned, but rather, companies taking advantage of an opportunity to cash in on high prices. The natural gas was coming from several countries, not just the USA. No specific company suddenly raised their prices tenfold. They simply responded to a market willing to pay that much due to speculation. (You or I would do the same, if we were making widgets for $10 and suddenly got offered $100. "How many would you like?!" and we'd burn the midnight oil making widgets).
Given that sequence of events, I don't think it would matter to them (massive energy suppliers) in the slightest, or even be a blip on their radar that some guy in rural Montana was suggesting people burn wood (plus the fact that the Natural Gas orders were already placed and paid for), but who knows? All sorts of weird stuff happens on the internet, and there are plenty of people who have nothing better to do than mess with someone for no real reason.

Jeff Bosch Do you have links for the things you mentioned?

The liberator has UL certification (to my knowledge useful in talking with insurance).

There is an exception in the EPA requirements for Masonary Heaters and some RMH installers have been able to use it for local inspector and insurance approval.

There is a group of Masonary Heater and RMH installers that have been working with the EPA on getting certification, but as most governmental things it is a slow process and even more so over the last couple years.