My search for the most ideal of what is possible

I was attracted to this forum site looking for others who would form a sustainable community. But knowing veganism is important I wanted to find if other vegans would be seeking that. So I searched vegan in those forums for that. Veganism was found just mentioned in places in that search, noting for a community forming that would be vegan. I didn't even know there was a vegan forum. I am glad I tried searching in all the forums instead, and finding this. But I want to know if other vegans are content with being in community with others who are not vegan. Wouldn't all vegan communities be desirable? But maybe my hopes for what sustainable community that way would be does not attract others into discussion for it. I still want to keep trying.

I think a community that begins by being so exclusive of other groups and ideas is a non-starter with a lot of people.

What possible reason could you have for excluding vegetarians and omnivores from your community, other than ideological disagreement? What does that say to others about your opinion of them, should they not agree completely with what you believe?

Honestly, I wish you all luck. I suggest, though, that you find some vegans who are happily living in community with vegetarians and omnivores, and ask them why they don't live in a community composed exclusively of vegans.

It might simply be because living in community is hard, and the more lines in the sand you draw, the fewer people resources you have.

Besides, monocrops aren't healthy.

-CK

Is the reason for an all vegan community to ensure no animal product contamination in communal cooking areas? I don't understand the benefits to the community of being exclusively vegan

Fred Frank Vbur wrote:Wouldn't all vegan communities be desirable?

I'm a vegan and enjoy eating with other vegans, sharing recipes and discussing our commonalities.  It is peaceful to discuss food with people who believe the same way I do about the benefits of eating that way.  But, I love, value and enjoy the company of many people who are not vegan.  So to answer your question, an all vegan community wouldn't be desirable to me.  I would lose too much by segmenting my life and community that way.

There are lots of vegans out there though (especially in the PNW where I live) so I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to find other vegans to share space with (although you might discover you don't share anything else in common).

"But knowing veganism is important..."

Why is it important? Because of belief, because of health, because of ethics, because of something else?

We have a community. We welcome all diets, and we can cook for all diets. Functionally and/or nutritionally, vegans can enjoy being here just as well as omnivores or others. Vegans can and have done well here. But (in the little I understand of some vegans) their preferences go much beyond just diet. Some vegans just can not be around animals being raised for food and can not physically/emotionally/morally/spiritually tolerate the killing and cooking of animals. Nor than they can tolerate the way humans smell who eat animals. No matter if they are right or wrong in those beliefs or tolerances, it is real to them.

If this is the reason you believe "veganism is important", then by all means you probably should be in an exclusive vegan community. Anything else I should think would be deeply disturbing and upsetting. There are thousands of communities in the U.S. and around the world. At a minimum I guess there are at the very least dozens of purely vegan communities. I would think the easiest way to find them would be to search the listings at ic.org and/or post an ad on that intentional community website stating exactly who you are and what you are specifically looking for.

I mean, a system of mixed eaters is probably best in terms of efficiency and flexibility, as well as being able to include more people with useful skills.

Land unsuitable for crops has historically been used to graze livestock to concentrate the sparse yield of such areas into useful concentrations, in the form of animals and their products. The land was, in turn, enriched by the actions of that grazing.

Some strict vegan interpretations wouldn't allow any animal use at all, even rescue farm animals kept to graze and cycle nutrients. How that squares with enslaving soil critters to do your bidding in growing crops is beyond me, but leaving that aside, worms and naturally occurring decomposers would be the only animals you'd be able to use to build soil.

Exclusive communities are a bad idea, in my opinion, at least if the objective is to build something lasting. The method of exclusion is right there in the concept, and it makes it far easier to shut people out than to bring them in.

Why not instead think about how to best work together, making a polyculture of community rather than a monocrop? That way, we can each benefit from the other's activities.

Also, in that way, if animal welfare is the overwhelming concern, it is possible to potentially influence their treatment for the better, rather than being on the outside.

-CK

Personally, I'm fascinated by how a vegan community would cloth themselves without external inputs.  It's a small obsession I've had ever since a friend of mine tried to do it but gave up because natural vegan-friendly clothing wasn't warm enough and she discovered that most 'vegan-friendly' manufactured clothing caused more environmental damage than animal-based cloth like wool..  I'm sure there must be a way to do it.

I can agree to no animals on the community farm, that we use to generate income.
I am not too sure about individual on their 1acre plot being banned from having chickens/beehive/aquaponics if fhey want to.

I can agree to no meat/smoking/weed at community/sharing events.
I am not too sure about banning and fining people who's trash show proof that they have bought and prepared meat in there personal home kitchen.

That said the US government does ban eating eagle meat, due to environmental reasons.  

I think it would probably evolve naturally as an enclave of vegan farmers within a larger community.

It make sense that food crops grown in a manner that accords with the vegan perspective on animal use in food production would seek to cycle their own waste streams for vegan-approved inputs to their own systems.

I think it would make sense, though, for said enclave to locate itself near other permaculturally aligned groups that they can get along with, near enough, for instance, to allow for increased pollination rates by the honeybees of neighbours, along with the huge growth potential of having so many like-minded permies tending pollinator food and habitat.

There are so many areas of overlap where people on the whole killing-things-to-survive spectrum share common ground that have nothing to do with the animal kingdom. If responsible rotational grazing isn't a non-negotiable point, I think there can be even more common ground.

-CK

Uhmm.

A vegan permaculture community with up to 250 people aka up to 50ish homes.
Possible with the usual solar/wind/hydro electric generation.
Passive House heating/cooling/ventilation concepts.
On-site food production (mushroom, veggie, herbs, berries, fruit, nuts)
Wildlife Restoration bat house, ponds, bee house, etc,
Pet Animals (dogs, cats, fish, turtle, lizards, birds)
Food Dehydration: Dates/Raisins/Figs, regular nuts, popcorn/grains/beans, tubers/potatoes, herbs/spices
Food Formation: Water Kefir aka Juice Kefir, Wine/Alcohol, Condiments, Vegetables/Kimchee.

We don't need to preserve alot of vegetables for 'winter' most of our minerals/fiber/vitamins can come from nuts/tubers/mushroom/fruits/beans. We would just have cut down on processed grains (flour/rice/etc)

Sounds like a delicious diet.  Can we add pulses for soil fertility and nutrition?

How about increasing soil fertility?  How does that work in a vegan community?  

I have always wondered about worm composting - is that considered subjugating animals to do one's bidding?  I had a long conversation with our local vegan super-hero about this once and she said that pets and keeping worms in captivity were against vegan principles.  

I also asked her about transportation since she is very against horses being used for transport.  After much discussion, we both agreed that petroleum hurts animals... so... what was left?  She suggested that the community be located close to each other so that people could walk.  We never settled on a  way of preparing the soil or transporting food to storage that didn't involve animals or petrol.  250 people worth of food?  How do you get it from harvest to storage?  Is it planting and working the land by hand?  How about no-till?  Would that produce enough food?

How about clothing?  I really want to know how a vegan community would cloth themselves year 'round without relying on materials and processes that degrade the environment (which hurts the animals living in it which according to my vegan friends, is against vegan principles)

Personal 1acre plots for each house will be prepared in the bio-intensive way aka no-till after establishment but double-till (24inch) at clearing/establishment with lots of input/compost. Establishment of all 44,000sqft (1acre) doesn't have to happen in 1 day. It can happen over years.  

Electric (Onsite Production, Time-Shifted Utilization, Low Wattage, Less Usage)
Heating (Insulation, Solar, Thermal Storage, Ventilation, RMH)
Building Material (Low Impact)
Cooking Fuel (Fermented, Raw, Solar Cooker, Pressure Cooker, wood, stacked cooking+heating)
Food (Onsite Production, less grains)
Clothing (Plant based, not petrol or animal based, out-sourced)
Water Supply (onsite production)
Transportation (less offsite working/buying/entertainment/hobby, more walking/cycle, motorbike, carpooling)
Entertainment (more nature based onsite, more building hobbies, internet/satellite, more community, trading)
Cleaning Supplies (more vinegar based, acv, water kefir vinegar, baking soda vs complex chemical, luffa)
Sewer (onsite, greywater, etc)
Solid Waste (do more onsite production, buy in bulk so less packaging, composting, donating, own less possessions)
Income/Work (Produce more so less is bought, trade, own less possessions,
Healthcare (Prevention, Food as Medicine, Probiotic, Herb, Diet, Stress Management, Sleep+Water)
Schooling (Online, Homeschooling)

I don't think of veganism as being exclusive as responders here depict it. And neither then would be a vegan community. Do none here really want more and more to come to veganism? I might have to look to communication elsewhere for such pursuit. I think of a community others could come see, if they would like. How veganism in this way is better would be promoted there, with real information for it. It can encourage others to come to that. Those who would join would understand that a healthy vegan way of living will be involved. It is not meant to be a barrier, but it would not have animals being used in the ways contrary to veganism. I think this is desirable to other vegans, if not here, I may yet find some elsewhere.

Nothing I said involves monoculture, I see other ways more sustainable to pursue. How is veganism for you otherwise avoiding any use of monoculture somewhere?

Chris Kott wrote:

It might simply be because living in community is hard, and the more lines in the sand you draw, the fewer people resources you have.

Besides, monocrops aren't healthy.

-CK

Fred, I think the monoculture mentioned is refering to people, not crops.

Fred Frank Vbur wrote:I don't think of veganism as being exclusive as responders here depict it. And neither then would be a vegan community. Do none here really want more and more to come to veganism? I might have to look to communication elsewhere for such pursuit. I think of a community others could come see, if they would like. How veganism in this way is better would be promoted there, with real information for it. It can encourage others to come to that. Those who would join would understand that a healthy vegan way of living will be involved. It is not meant to be a barrier, but it would not have animals being used in the ways contrary to veganism. I think this is desirable to other vegans, if not here, I may yet find some elsewhere.

Nothing I said involves monoculture, I see other ways more sustainable to pursue. How is veganism for you otherwise avoiding any use of monoculture somewhere?

I don't understand your statement that veganism isn't as exclusive as people are depicting.  In my understanding, it excludes people that use animal products, and that is a very, very large percentage of the world population.  Could you explain further?

Trace Oswald wrote:

Fred Frank Vbur wrote:I don't think of veganism as being exclusive as responders here depict it. And neither then would be a vegan community. Do none here really want more and more to come to veganism? I might have to look to communication elsewhere for such pursuit. I think of a community others could come see, if they would like. How veganism in this way is better would be promoted there, with real information for it. It can encourage others to come to that. Those who would join would understand that a healthy vegan way of living will be involved. It is not meant to be a barrier, but it would not have animals being used in the ways contrary to veganism. I think this is desirable to other vegans, if not here, I may yet find some elsewhere.

Nothing I said involves monoculture, I see other ways more sustainable to pursue. How is veganism for you otherwise avoiding any use of monoculture somewhere?

I don't understand your statement that veganism isn't as exclusive as people are depicting.  In my understanding, it excludes people that use animal products, and that is a very, very large percentage of the world population.  Could you explain further?

Yeah, that's been my experience, too.  I was very interested in joining a planned community, as were many others around here, but it pretty much fell apart when almost all the vegans said that they would not live on a property, even 250+ acres, if some people were raising meat animals.  They wanted to live a self-supporting, regenerative lifestyle on the Canadian Shield without animals, which doesn't seem feasible to me.  I know that it's anecdotal, but that's been my experience with almost all vegans; mostly they have zero tolerance for people who identify as carnivore.  That would be just fine if I didn't think that animals were a crucial component of sustainable living, but I'm not into missionary work and it doesn't affect me, so whatevs as my daughter would say.

I would call it something else vegetarian and struggling meat eaters, for a positive spin.
Always struggle with giving up eggs even though you are deadly allergic to it, milk and peanut (because we don't discriminate so we have to add the token peanut). Well come and join our community of self-experimenter. It is open to all, but we would like to create a supportive atmosphere for folks trying to quit animal products. It's like saying we would prefer no cigarettes/alcohol/weed in our IC.

As to how to make it more 'supportive'?
Gamification with rewards and demerits.
Acknowledgement
Activation/Festivals/Gathering
Age Limits, like for alcohol.
Extra Tax, like for cigs to help fund medical cost
Alot of cities ban farm animals (no roosters/cows/sheep)

Tina Hillel wrote:

Chris Kott wrote:

It might simply be because living in community is hard, and the more lines in the sand you draw, the fewer people resources you have.

Besides, monocrops aren't healthy.

-CK

Fred, I think the monoculture mentioned is refering to people, not crops.

Okay, my mistake, I was thinking of monoculture meaning what monocrop would mean. The point remains with that. I don't endorse using monocrops. Without using what you grow, how are you avoiding food that was from monocrops? I wasn't the one bringing it up, it was leveled at me, so I can question those questioning me.

Timothy Markus wrote:Yeah, that's been my experience, too.  I was very interested in joining a planned community, as were many others around here, but it pretty much fell apart when almost all the vegans said that they would not live on a property, even 250+ acres, if some people were raising meat animals.  They wanted to live a self-supporting, regenerative lifestyle on the Canadian Shield without animals, which doesn't seem feasible to me.  I know that it's anecdotal, but that's been my experience with almost all vegans; mostly they have zero tolerance for people who identify as carnivore.  That would be just fine if I didn't think that animals were a crucial component of sustainable living, but I'm not into missionary work and it doesn't affect me, so whatevs as my daughter would say.

Such a vegan community would exclude animals being brought in for use or slaughter. There is still understanding that animals in the environments serve their important purposes. They just would not be directly used by people there. This is better for sustainable living, too. But such exclusions do not exclude people, which it seems is the issue to any of you. It would remain a vegan community, but does not exclude any that can agree to terms of the community. Wouldn't all intentional communities be arranged like that? Why think differently of such vegan community that is envisioned, then?

S Bengi wrote:I would call it something else vegetarian and struggling meat eaters, for a positive spin.
Always struggle with giving up eggs even though you are deadly allergic to it, milk and peanut (because we don't discriminate so we have to add the token peanut). Well come and join our community of self-experimenter. It is open to all, but we would like to create a supportive atmosphere for folks trying to quit animal products. It's like saying we would prefer no cigarettes/alcohol/weed in our IC.

As to how to make it more 'supportive'?
Gamification with rewards and demerits.
Acknowledgement
Activation/Festivals/Gathering
Age Limits, like for alcohol.
Extra Tax, like for cigs to help fund medical cost
Alot of cities ban farm animals (no roosters/cows/sheep)

I will try answering your post, too, to be even in this. I don't see you making an issue with what I posted, though. Was that really an invitation to come and learn about your community? I would also like seeing smoking excluded. I for one don't  drink alcohol, I know some communities exclude it and some permit that. Maybe it would have to be discussed. No one wants to be affected by the other's indulgence. Drinking might affect others, that would be an issue. Smoking will affect others, I know in my case it will seriously affect me. I avoid peanut too, for fear of allergic reaction. So, in the case of some who would come but can't settle in with eating as a vegan, even when it would be healthy, and tasty, meals, but need time of transition, I understand that. But there could be preparation time before coming, with that arranged for, and the transition in that time can have any of such prepared for fully eating as a vegan. There are accessible ways for such transition. See https://www.forksoverknives.com .

No, I don't have such an IC.
I was just saying that is one way that you could phrase your proposed IC, so that rest of the community accept it better.

I think that alot of people here will agree with you that, weed/cigarettes/alcohol/processed food/soda/'meat'/being from a 'wrong/different religion' is bad but we don't want to see a country/state/city/IC develop where people aren't given the freedom to wrong/different. We would rather having the option to pay an extra tax/fee/registration to get medical weed, extra tax on cig and even an age limit on alcohol. But to be exiled/arrested/told to not even show up makes us have a guttural reaction of no we need to have more freedom/options vs less.

I think maybe visiting some type of monastery, will allow you to such a community of vegans/vegetarians.

Also would babies be able to drink animal milk (their human mother or only soy milk formula).
I think that alot of India doesn't eat cows (maybe they don't milk) and they sure do feel 1.1 billion people with no imports in a relatively small amount of space.
I think you might be able to visit a no meat community in India.

I think that if people had to personally grow, kill and process their own meat and food. We would have alot less people eating meat or little debbie or flour. We would think it is too much work and eat whole grain in a soup/porridge vs degerm, then grind, then make into noodles/pasta, then dehydrate, then store, then recook. Most people would just say we are having soup or corn on the cob vs Doritos/noodles/little debbie.  

Saying you can't buy or trade weed/alcohol/processed flour/cigs/meat, but you can grow your own would see a huge drop in usage.


 

S Bengi wrote:.... We would have alot less people eating meat or little debbie....

Little Debbie!???.....Now you ARE treading on sacred ground!  ;-)

Much agreeing with your sentiments here though.   If foods were harvested and processed on site there would be a major shift in the priorities of what ended up on the table and in the pantry.

I don't know how popular my take on veganism is.

First off, I am not a vegan. Some of my favourite foods are, but I am not.

Now as with many I have spoken with on the matter, chemical and/or proceesed food veganism just isn't, in my opinion.

Also, if one's food practices don't directly involve animal meat or their products, but result in habitat and topsoil loss or killing animals as a byproduct of tilling and fossil fuel use, I consider them inferior to an animal-integrated system that follows the "one bad day" principle.

When I prepare meatless meals, they are invariably delicious. I tend to mine the culinary traditions of cultures that tend towards meatlessness and what many would accept as veganism.

When I make a butternut lentil dahl, my Indian and vegan, and vegan Indian, and even my omnivorous indian food-loving friends, love it.

I have fed diet-coke-and-oreo vegans who cried, not because of the heat and spice (well, not only), but because they hadn't realised that you could make vegan meals taste so good outside of a vegan restaurant's kitchen.

But when I eat that way, it's because it's the cheapest way to eat ethically. By that, I mean that meat that I consider ethically produced costs more because it's been grass-fed (for beef, my favourite vegan), paddock-shift grazed and able to indulge in complete, unbridled beefness. Combine that with local eating, and you usually pay a pretty penny for your ethical convictions.

The problem I see with an exclusively vegan community is one of efficiency. The focus of the system is extremely narrow. Narrow systems beget systemic waste, and that is inefficient.

Worse yet, the inability to use animals to process waste and speed up nutrient cycling greatly slows soil generation. And if vermiculture isn't ethical by vegan standards, not only does that slow soil generation even further, it calls into question the morality of enslaving microbes for composting.

In the end, even if we derive sustenance from cultured yeasts and algae, we are still consuming lives to continue our own, not to mention controlling their lives from beginning to end and shaping the course of their offspring's evolution to our own ends.

I think the most ideal of what is possible would include vegans living alongside vegetarians and omnivores of all stripes so that we can share and be guided by the vegan concern for the welfare of animals. I have no illusions that any would ever consider the ending of an animal life to feed them as acceptable, but imagine animal operations for fibre and milk, say, in which animals lived so well that vegans had no problem living alongside them. Those would be some well-treated animals.

Let's get better together. Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

-CK

I understand the feelings behind people converting to vegetarianism and veganism, but I have a very hard time reconciling what I see as the natural order of things and veganism.  Everything I've read or watched and all my person experience with soil fertility leads me to believe that animals are essential for a sustainable diet, both for carnivores and vegans.  When I started incorporating rabbits and chickens with my gardening, it was a revelation.  Herbivores are critical in that they alone can start the process of harvesting the energy from the sun in ways that we can't.  

I agree that current farming methods for meat aren't sustainable and, worse, the animals aren't kept in what I think are proper conditions.  I do think that current livestock farming practices can easily lead to soil degradation and environmental issues, but I'd argue that so does conventional grain/nut farming.  I think that the most damaging thing about the current livestock methods is that they are fed on grain, which requires repeated tilling, pesticides and fossil fuel use.  All those things apply to a vegan diet.  Personally, I think that the most sustainable farming method is mob grazing and the output of that is meat.  

I'm diabetic and have been for years.  I've done a lot of reading on diets and the one that makes the most sense to me is a high fat, moderate protein, low carb diet.  Eating that diet enabled me to go from needing insulin to control my diabetes by diet alone.  I can't eat enough calories from grains to live without having to go back on meds, so it's pretty clear to me that the best diet for me is a carnivorous one.  I do feel strongly that I have an obligation to eat animals that were ethically raised, which I try to do.  I know exactly how my animals have been handled, often from birth/hatching through to slaughter, and I'm happiest when I can provide all my own meat, but I agree that it can be costly to purchase ethically raised animals.  

While I was reading up on how our bodies deal with nutrition I came across a few comparisons of the intestines from different animals and how they relate to the diet of those species.  I was taught in school that we're omnivores, but our make up doesn't support that.  We've got the digestive tract associated with carnivores.  It's short with respect to our size because we are supposed to derive most of our nutrition from fat and meat, which are much easier to digest than plant based foods.  Gorillas are true omnivores; look at the size of their gut compared to ours.  Dogs have the same kind of digestive system, and I think that most people would say that they're carnivores.  The argument is that we can live without meat, and I agree that we won't die too quickly without it, but that doesn't mean it's the right diet.  Most dogs eat food that is mainly carbs and they survive.  I don't think many people would deny that they're carnivores, not omnivores, and I think we're the same.  We CAN eat only grains, but we're not designed to.  Cows CAN eat a lot of corn, but they weren't designed to.  It has all sorts of bad effects on the cows, but we feed it to them anyway.  

A couple of years ago I started making my own dog food for my dogs.  I couldn't believe the change in health.  One of my dogs was 23.5 lbs, always bugging us for food, was pre-diabetic and had hormonal issues.  I started making food in the crock pot that was mostly meat with bones and veggies, no grains.  I started feeding her 1/2 a cup once a day.  Even though I was restricting her calories, she stopped begging for food entirely, outside of letting me know that it was very close to 5pm.  She very quickly dropped to 15.8 lbs, where she's been for two years.  I now feed her a cup a day, still no begging, she has no hormonal issues, her weight is perfect and her teeth are cleaner than before.  All I did was provide her with a species appropriate diet.

To sum up, from what I've seen and experienced, a vegan diet supports unsustainable agriculture and isn't what we're designed to eat.  I get that it sucks that an animal has to die for me to eat.  I get that much more than most as I've raised and butchered my own meat.  Every life I take is meaningful and I try my best to do it fast and painlessly and only after I've given them the best care I can.  It's not in me to live with animals and not love them, and it always hurts come butchering time, but I need meat to live a healthy life.

I really don't care if someone chooses to identify as vegan but, in my experience almost all of them care that I'm not.  I think that veganism is an emotionally driven choice, not a scientific one, so I don't think there's much chance of changing a vegan's mind, but then I don't think we can ever really change anyone's mind about anything.  My biggest issue with vegans is that very few of the ones I've met show any tolerance for my diet.  I think that Chris' idea of vegans living with productive animals is unlikely, given their stance that animal use is animal abuse (my words) and any scenario like that would run into issues when the animal's productive life is past.  One of my IC experiences fell apart because the vegans drew a line in the sand that they wouldn't be part of any community that kept livestock.  Two felt that it would be OK for a member to keep chickens for eggs only but, when the subject of spent hens was raised, they both felt that the hens should be allowed to live out the rest of their lives naturally.  Hey, I love animals, and I've kept some around long after their productive lives, but people should be open to let others live as they please.  (Yep, I just shoulded all over this post)

This has been much more negative than I had anticipated and it's certainly based on anecdotal experience, but I do know many vegans, friends and family, and I really don't care what they put in their bodies.  I do have to say that I lived beside two vegan couples a few years ago when I had chickens, quail and rabbits in the back yard.  I had them over and gave them a tour and they quite liked it.  I was thinking about getting some cornish X for meat so I spoke to them about it.  I felt that my wanting to raise meat birds in the city wasn't normal (for those of us not on here), so I wanted to see if they'd be comfortable with me doing it next door to them.  They all said it was OK, but I felt that they were just being Canadian at me, so I didn't get them as I didn't want to make them uncomfortable at all (I guess I was Canadian right back at them).  Several months later, after they'd had more experience with me, they all said that they would try my chicken or quail as they saw how I raised them and they had all turned vegan in response to agricultural practices.  

To me, the OP is the kind of vegan I most usually run across.  I felt he was very exclusionary and my guess is he didn't find the support he was looking for so he just left instead of discussing.  I know not all vegans are like that, and my apologies to any vegans I've offended.  I feel that the vegans on this site are definitely accepting of carnivores and I really appreciate it.  I think, in the end, we both care about animals, we just deal with it differently.  I guess that's what I should say to the vegans in my life when it comes up.

I lived in a raw vegan community for a short time while on a bicycle tour of the U.S. Southwest.  It was called Tree of Life.  I don't know if it is still active.  The focus there was on the healthy qualities of living foods. It was primarily a healing center for people with serious illness --who paid a lot of money to get treatments by the resident doctor as well as eat an exclusive raw diet and go through systematic routines daily.   I worked in the kitchen, initially.  They used a lot of salt and a lot of nuts and seeds and coconuts and fruit that were all imported.  Most of the food was imported.  I worked there until a round of food prep classes started (a secondary focus)... and then got on with the maintenance team.  The food was excellent.  They used EM (effective microbes) in the hot tub, and peroxide in their drinking water.  They did have decent gardens which produced roots and greens primarily.   What I didn't like was there was very little focus on exercise, except for yoga, and they used PVC pipes in their greenhouse for hydroponic grow beds for micro greens.  The doc, however, had cancer patients jump on a mini tramp with an oxygen mask on before going into the infrared sauna.  I understand that he was kicking cancer out with such tactics, but...  I offered to take people on easy hikes into the wild hills nearby but this was frowned upon as dangerous (cougars, peccaries, and rattlers mostly, but really these critters are skittish around people), so the trampoline and oxygen mask thing was the way to go, I guess.  There were some really interesting people there, and I could see the system working pretty well but the whole scene was a little bit weird (an additonal focus was on 'Essene' Judaism, which I had some passing interest in but couldn't really jive with).  The whole place had too much focus on the Doctor's personal philosophy and I'm just not so much of a follower... so I carried on.  I don't recommend it unless you have those specific ideas in mind.  

I was primarily a vegan on my trip but found that outside of the raw food folks in some of the cities that it was hard to have others relate to my vegan diet.  Vegan communities are rare and likely hard to find.  It would have been a lot easier to be a vegetarian, but I do not tolerate milk products much at all, and generally if someone makes or offers vegetarian dishes, it's cheese or cream oriented.  Occasionally I craved meat, and I satisfied this craving, usually with tinned sardines as it gave me a good dose of oils too.

I don't see any reason why a vegan community could not exist and be very functional in a permaculture sense, but the more extreme a community takes things the harder it would be to be sustainable or resilient.  I could see a vegan community making its own clothing, particularly if it was in a warm local.  It would be challenging to weave enough flax to tolerate winter where I live, presently, but might be relatively easy to make grass skirts in Tahiti.  

The only large vegan communities that I have heard about are Jain folk in India.  The vegan Jains are a more modern spinoff.  They are hard to find, because the majority follow the traditional Jain diet which includes dairy.  In their culture, the dairy cattle were never killed and were treated as sacred animals.  Jains are very strict about not killing animals, and do there best to not harm microbes, so many don't even eat root vegetables because of the harm to the soil life when uprooting.  

Is sustainable vegan permaculture possible? I have not been able to think of how it could be possible, unless you have high tech lab grown food and completely wipe out natural ecosystems and/or live in a separate, purely anthropocentric ecosystem.

I'm genuinely open to thoughts to counter my belief. I would also be interested to know if any 'high level' permaculture people endorse veganism?

Chris Wang wrote:Is sustainable vegan permaculture possible? I have not been able to think of how it could be possible, unless you have high tech lab grown food and completely wipe out natural ecosystems and/or live in a separate, purely anthropocentric ecosystem.

I'm genuinely open to thoughts to counter my belief. I would also be interested to know if any 'high level' permaculture people endorse veganism?

That's my fundamental issue with it too.  The vegans I know consume a lot of almond or soy milk or both.  I think that there are frightening issues with current agricultural methods for farming both of these, just like there are with all other 'state of the art' farming for meat, grains, etc.  I think you could have a sustainable vegan diet with a nut-based food forest.  If you ran an animal rescue you could graze them for their remaining lives, but that's still using the animal.  Maybe a food forest abundant enough to let a lot go to wildlife.

Chris Kott wrote:Now as with many I have spoken with on the matter, chemical and/or proceesed food veganism just isn't ... in my opinion, if one's food practices don't directly involve animal meat or their products, but result in habitat and topsoil loss or killing animals as a byproduct of tilling and fossil fuel use, I consider them inferior

Others speak to this, the following is to answer this for all. I am not though advocating for a community of any such veganism, but such that will use what they grow, all whole food. This with having it all grown properly (I don't mean monocrops either, I mean great mixture among compatible vegetation, with more natural practices) is sustainable, and very healthy. I do say processed things for food, along with animal products, is not as healthy. There are studies for that, such as can be seen with Forks Over Knives.

Roberto pokachinni wrote:I lived in a raw vegan community for a short time while on a bicycle tour of the U.S. Southwest...

I don't see any reason why a vegan community could not exist and be very functional in a permaculture sense, but the more extreme a community takes things the harder it would be to be sustainable or resilient.  I could see a vegan community making its own clothing, particularly if it was in a warm local.  It would be challenging to weave enough flax to tolerate winter where I live, presently, but might be relatively easy to make grass skirts in Tahiti.  

The only large vegan communities that I have heard about are Jain folk in India.  The vegan Jains are a more modern spinoff.  They are hard to find, because the majority follow the traditional Jain diet which includes dairy.  In their culture, the dairy cattle were never killed and were treated as sacred animals.  Jains are very strict about not killing animals, and do there best to not harm microbes, so many don't even eat root vegetables because of the harm to the soil life when uprooting.  

Roberto, you seem to get what I try to communicate for a bit better. I do see self-sufficient sustainable living going further is desirable. It would be possible, with avoiding animal products, and the processed stuff, being good for that. A great many things can be grown for what is needed, I don't mean with monocrops, but what is useful grown among compatible vegetation with more natural methods, making soil depletion and any great pest issue not becoming a problem that has to be dealt with using further things used in agriculture.

Animals that naturally live there don't have to be a problem. They can be helpful to the system without anyone actually using them.

I might not find others with such differences. Still I for one would not have a problem with nudity among any that would be there when it is getting so warm. Fibers that are useful for clothing and things can be growing there. I would not find a location with really cold winters desirable for such community as this.

I am not criticizing others' ways that they choose, but speak of what I see desirable for pursuing, if there were any others who had interest to communicate for this.

With posting about this in the vegan forum, are there not other vegans communicating in it, as I thought there would possibly be?

Timothy Markus wrote:Herbivores are critical in that they alone can start the process of harvesting the energy from the sun in ways that we can't.

That sounds to me that is what vegetables and other plants do.

I'm diabetic and have been for years.  I've done a lot of reading on diets and the one that makes the most sense to me is a high fat, moderate protein, low carb diet.

I would like you to know that whole food plant-based eating is shown to prevent it and stop the worsening from diabetes 2, and in cases it reverses it.
...www.forksoverknives.com

I am not criticizing others' ways that they choose, but speak of what I see desirable for pursuing, if there were any others who had interest to communicate for this.

With posting about this in the vegan forum, are there not other vegans communicating in it, as I thought there would possibly be?

There are some vegans here, enough to warrant a 'vegan' forum.....maybe they've not seen your post yet.

I hope you can get some helpful advice for achieving what you would like to achieve...reaching out to other vegans seems like a good start.

Trace Oswald wrote:I don't understand your statement that veganism isn't as exclusive as people are depicting.  In my understanding, it excludes people that use animal products, and that is a very, very large percentage of the world population.  Could you explain further?

It seems to me for now that I can't answer you here, as I tried with believing I could. I thought, wrongly, that it would be basically vegans communicating in the vegan forum here, so that I would be speaking of useful information for the vegans. If you care to have it, there could maybe be other communication for us, by email, or by "purple moosage", where I could answer what you were showing interest in.