SOS! Spiralling into the Evil Black Hole of Streaming Music!

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Hey hive mind, I have an ethics problem. Help me out.

I firmly believe musicians should be fairly paid. Making music is neither easy nor free, and this intellectual/artistic property and its creators should be fairly compensated. I buy albums and CDs, always have. I know, what a crazy concept in these everything-can-be stolen-online times.

I flatly refuse to touch Spotify because IMO they are rip-off artists. If one play earns one-third-of-one-penny, do the math. Someone with a million plays is also working the night shift at Walmart to pay the rent. Not cool, people. Not okay.

But dammit some cracks are showing. My internet reaches to my unheated workshop, and an old discarded laptop running on a Raspberry Pi Linux USB stick can stream VEVO music off gootube and pump it through an ancient stereo with scrounged parts and decent speakers, also scrounged. It is too damned convenient.

I do my best to find the official channels where bands get paid at least a pittance. And if I have purchased this music on hard media in the past, I don't feel bad at all. But that's not always the case, and I'm sweating about doing what is honourable and right rather than what is easy.

Do you stream online music? Thoughts?

Hmmm....tough one.  I'll probably be copying and pasting your conundrum into an email to a starving (and aging) musician friend to get his input.  Fortunately, he was able to establish a good stream of students to whom he teaches guitar and that has done okay for him in his post-gig career.  Certainly the live gigging made money for him, but the wear and tear on the body, especially as the years ticked away, soon became too more than that income was worth.

In the meantime, all I can say is that, if you have some control over the content being streamed (i.e., you've chosen in advance the playlist or have a way of compiling what music was heard over the course of the evening), you may wish to create some kind of 'graduated tax system' in which you compensate an artist to whom you listened by way of donation.....and perhaps somewhat modified by their fame and fortune...???  If I've binged on Irish trad accordion players on YouTube, who likely are not making a ton of money or even started charging for their music, I've tended to purchase their CD or medium for which they can receive compensation.  I'm just less likely to be concerned about that if the music I listened to was Springsteen or Swift, whose holdings are nearing or in the billions of dollars.  Sure, these may be indefensible arguments, but perhaps there is something there for you to mull around.

Like you noted, a musician that is making peanuts but is still providing pleasure, inspiration, and insight, may be working low-income jobs to scrape by.
Even though through our modern media we are becoming numb to dollar figures in the billions and trillions, think about that scale:  If you earned $5000 per day, you would have to live over 500 years to become a billionaire.....In your first years of income, you would have possibly crossed paths with Christopher Columbus!  The point being, at some point I think the compensation is already sufficient.  Just my own $0.02 USD....

[PS...in this anniversary month of the Edmund Fitzgerald, just remembering the passing of Gordon Lightfoot some months back that I don't think was noted here, though I could be wrong.]

Thanks, John. I would be very interested to hear your what your musician friend might recommend.

In honour of Gordon Lightfoot, I just picked up my fine little Canadian-made Art&Lutherie six-string and played Canadian Railroad Trilogy in its entirety. I guess the song may be out of fashion these days; but fashions come and go. This song endures. Cheers, Gord!

If you want your money to end up with the musicians, find a way to pay them directly.
Small bands usually have a website where they sell directly.

My understanding is that royalty payments are almost mythical for most musicians. Whether you stream, listen to the radio or buy a CD, very little money makes it to the musician. The best way to support a musician in the traditional music industry is to buy a ticket to see them live. Even better is to buy one of their t-shirts. Bands retain the rights to most of their merch, so they don't have to pay their label for the right to sell it.

Patreon and Kickstarter are the newer ways to support musicians directly.

Jeremy VanGelder wrote:The best way to support a musician in the traditional music industry is to buy a ticket to see them live.

This is a return to normalcy.  We've only been able to record and playback records for a tiny fraction of recent human history and the money grubbing record industry that grew up around that technology can die a fiery death for all I care.   Buy CDs if you want, but nothing compares to the animated experience of hearing a band live knowing it could all fall apart at any moment, so when it's good, it's amazing and those are the bands who's talent has earned all the monies imo.

That's why I hired a local death metal band to play in my garage, on demand.

I figure if I am working in the garage, I am likely already angry so lean in as they say. Which as an aside is how you get knocked out bull riding or boxing...

As far as streaming goes, I don't know what to do. I don't do it much but I do it. About half the bands I listen to I have bought multiple albums from so I guess like you said, that isn't too much of a problem. The rest, well I don't know. If it wasn't for streaming I never would have heard of them, so...??? I mean, it's not like there is a record store downtown anymore.

I agree donating directly would make the biggest impact. I recall reading in a magazine in the late 90's that out of 16 million dollars retail sales for albums, each member of a four person band walked away with $29,000 after everyone else took their cut.

I buy the tickets, the merch, the albums, and share my beloved bands on social media. Figure that's about the best I can do to support them.

One source of streaming music I like is archive.org IF your band allows live recordings, they'll likely be found there (admittedly mostly jam bands.) Does the artist get anything for this? No. But they agreed to letting their fans listen to it and it goes around the corporate BS that is Spotify. A better way to access archive.org content is to download "Tapers Section" app. Free, no ads, bare bones software.

Matt Todd wrote:One source of streaming music I like is archive.org IF your band allows live recordings, they'll likely be found there (admittedly mostly jam bands.) Does the artist get anything for this? No. But they agreed to letting their fans listen to it and it goes around the corporate BS that is Spotify. A better way to access archive.org content is to download "Tapers Section" app. Free, no ads, bare bones software.

bt.etree.org is a torrent tracker that tracks even more live recordings than archive.org  Tons of bluegrass on there too.  Billy Strings puts whole shows on YouTube and I'm not seeing a lot of empty seats and it's because of that exposure. Cutting a record and living off royalties the rest of your life just isn't realistic anymore unless you're backed by some degenerate agenda pushing corporation. Might as well trade your guitar for a shovel and join the permacult.

This has been much on my mind these last few days, since I saw this in a newsletter from a favorite charity of mine:

Rachel Lindsay wrote:This has been much on my mind these last few days, since I saw this in a newsletter from a favorite charity of mine:

Over in the "manufacturing as energy storage" thread, bitcoin mining was brought up... (equipment providing waste heat while running and offsetting space heating costs)
Could there be such a thing as "Spotify Mining"? Something like Douglas's setup, running in the barn, set to "whatever" Douglas wants while his ears are in the room... but then defaults to a musician of his choice to run the remainder of 24/7/365. I'm sure someone at these streaming services will take notice if "too many accounts" are streaming 24/7, and change things... but in the short term, or in small enough numbers to fly under the radar, maybe it could make a difference to a few bands/musicians?

What do they need money for? Artists with money lose their edge. They're blessed with a talent and people will pay thèm to play. I mean... Play.....
I get up early, work, ok sometimes it feels like playing too, but i mean, it just pays thé Bulls and then thé garden waits.
So many kids now want to be a rapper or something. Make tons of money, have fancy cars, lots and lots of sex and drugs.
Is money really thé thing that keeps good music going?
Usually a band's first album is their best. Am i wrong?
Money is fuclking it up. And when they have it they dont even appréciate it, they'll go get addicted to drugs because they are not really part of society any more.
Just dont give them money, but a job.
They get really weird ideas otherwise, grotesque. Where's thé protestsongs anyway? I mean with all thé wars going on and shit, shouldn't there be like protestsongs and stuff. They probable don't even protest.

I just saw a Rolling Stone article about musicians who are making streaming work for them.

McLaughlin is an independent artist in her forties who makes contemporary instrumental solo piano music. She’s a star in her field — to the point where another pianist says, “I’m not quite doing Michele McLaughlin numbers” — reportedly making around $250,000 a year. And she’s not alone. “We have a large group of solo piano players that are making a killing, making $7,000 to $10,000 a month,” says Kevin Breuner, VP of Marketing for CDBaby, which touts itself as “the largest global digital distributor of independent music.”  

Hugo Morvan wrote:What do they need money for? Artists with money lose their edge. They're blessed with a talent and people will pay thèm to play. I mean... Play.....
I get up early, work, ok sometimes it feels like playing too, but i mean, it just pays thé Bulls and then thé garden waits.
So many kids now want to be a rapper or something. Make tons of money, have fancy cars, lots and lots of sex and drugs.
Is money really thé thing that keeps good music going?
Usually a band's first album is their best. Am i wrong?
Money is fuclking it up. And when they have it they dont even appréciate it, they'll go get addicted to drugs because they are not really part of society any more.
Just dont give them money, but a job.
They get really weird ideas otherwise, grotesque. Where's thé protestsongs anyway? I mean with all thé wars going on and shit, shouldn't there be like protestsongs and stuff. They probable don't even protest.

LOL, the irony is flowing. And perhaps the wine?

Granted, too much money is poison. Not enough money is also poison, especially at the end of a long career. Personally it would poison my view of humanity if they were dancing to my music and I couldn't afford shoes. The workman is worthy of his hire.

"the workman is worthy of his hire"

When you don't get paid you find something else to do.  If your art is contingent on "getting paid" and we hear it, it's probably ok but no real thrills.  The art that happens because it HAS to happen is what gets buried by the industry but it's a treat when you hear it.  There's, what?maybe 10 decades of amazing music on record?  Just seems like kicking the pricks trying to live a life that imitates some outdated model of subsistence and being bitter about it is probably gonna infect everything you do in life and not yield much if anything.

Edit: "kicking the PRICKS". .. learn something everyday I do

Jeremy VanGelder wrote: The best way to support a musician in the traditional music industry is to buy a ticket to see them live. Even better is to buy one of their t-shirts. Bands retain the rights to most of their merch, so they don't have to pay their label for the right to sell it.

Patreon and Kickstarter are the newer ways to support musicians directly.

I agree that this is the way to best help musicians.

When we were younger, one of our best friends had a band.  We went every weekend to help support that band.

When I hear some of the songs they played and have fond memories.

BTW, that band got a cut off the tickets that were sold and maybe even some off drinks sold.

No i didn't drink. But i played devil's advocat. Some things i meant, you picked them out.
I believe bands have a much more level playing field nowadays then back in the pré internet time. Anybody can upload to YouTube or tiktok and get a following. That was unthinkable before. Industry just décided who became popular.
I don't even know who would be the new like Madonna or something. To me it's total rubbish people listen to.
I think people make a lot of great music nowadays. And if musicians really struggle they can like people say do things to make money. Shirts and concerts. Most bands will manage that. And don't people have like their own indépendant record labels now?
Didn't Anton Newcombe start that fashion by refusing to sign any and every record deal?
It's a though world, rich getting richer, wars everywhere, rights evaporating, journalists locked up everywhere.
I would have thought and hoped some punk like primitive energy movement would arise from that. Some boosting energy fueling a movement, maybe even a back to the land movement. Very mysterious, the crickets.
Anyway, that's where i am at, and worrying if some western people who basicly have the luxury to chose a hobby as an incomestream isn't very high on my priority list. Hence the edgy comment. Sorry if someone is hurt by that somewhat.

Hugo, no hurt whatsoever. I think playing devil's advocate is often very helpful. Though when I do that, I announce it before I post it.  

From my perspective, I see wonderful bands from my youth, which were formative in my journey as a musician, forced to tour as senior citizens. We're not talking about the 'Stones or Springsteen or Led Zeppelin. These artists were very good and had mid-level success as working musicians, and their songs still play on the radio. But what this tells me is that the social compact they signed onto in their prime working years has been arbitrarily breached by Big Data that says, in effect, we can take your stuff and stream it, and make money off it, and give you fractions of pennies. We are multinational and untouchable, and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it.

This makes me angry.

I totally feel your ethical dilemma...I had it too so I stopped using streaming services a few years ago. If I want something digital I use Bandcamp to purchase music from artists or buy directly from their site. We also buy Vinyl, cassettes and CDs. We can upload them to our home digital library if we need to listen digitally. As many others have said, buying tickets to live shows is a great way to support artists and the best way to enjoy music in many ways. What I have realized is that if I like a band enough- I want to support them and I will buy a physical copy of their music. We didn't have streaming before and we all listened to plenty of good music. The way I cut things out of my life I don't support is by taking away the unethical choice. It means I end up listening to a lot of albums over and over again..but honestly that's how it was when I was younger and I don't think I'm missing out on much. Keep it local and go discover live music and support the little artists too.

Hugo Morvan wrote:
I would have thought and hoped some punk like primitive energy movement would arise from that. Some boosting energy fueling a movement, maybe even a back to the land movement. Very mysterious, the crickets.

Oh there are a lot of great artists out there singing protest songs and raising permaculture awareness! For a songs for the people Utah Phillips vibe, check out Willi Carlisle. He is an absolutely amazing lyricist and I had the great pleasure of seeing him at the Purple Fiddle last summer.
For Permaculture songs check out Formidable Vegetable or Hilla the Earth!

Just the ones that came to my mind right now :)

Well! It seems gootube is helping me decide. All of a sudden, pissy notifications that I can't listen while my ad blockers are live. This on Linux boxes, many platforms. Obviously they have refined their technique and are burrowing deeper into my personal business. Well, The Analog Kid* has options, VPNs and CD burners (seriously!). So let's dance.

Edit: I guess I'm grumpy about this because I sincerely doubt that artists are reaping the rewards.

*Rush. Signals. Awesome.

I'm a professional singer myself, but most of the money I make comes from performing live, I have an album people can buy.  I don't think I'm streamable yet, but I've thought about it because even if it doesn't make me money its that recognition and familiarity concept.  Whether its right or not I totally listen to my alexa all the time which plays Amazon music.  I really never think about the ethics of it even though I probably should.  But I don't have any plans to stop, so there's that, its just so convenient.

I don't stream music unless it's something brand new that I'm deciding whether I want to buy it or not.

An old cell phone with a micro sd card can hold my entire mp3 collection. Currently 20000+ songs. More than 52 days of music non-stop.

I buy most new vinyl albums directly from the artist if possible or from bandcamp where digital downloads are included with purchase of physical copies. I try to do this on bandcamp fridays when bandcamp waves it fees and artists keep all the money.

I buy vinyl records because they have great artwork etc., sound great and I could still play them after the shit hits the fan with a sharp stick and a big leaf.

I see no reason to support 3rd party parasites in any way shape or form.

Library
Pays creators, plus many government have extra funds for paying authors and creators who are borrowed a lot in the library.
Free streaming and download
Great to sample what dvd to buy because streaming often trims their collections and it's nice to have our own copy and support our favourites.

r ranson wrote:Library
Pays creators, plus many government have extra funds for paying authors and creators who are borrowed a lot in the library.
Free streaming and download
Great to sample what dvd to buy because streaming often trims their collections and it's nice to have our own copy and support our favourites.

Great points!

I had let my card lapse but recently got a new card and have been trying to make as much use of it as I can. I try to mention to people that libraries still exist but still have a hard time remembering myself.

I think this is more important than ever in the United States. Libraries will go away if they're not used enough. And they won't likely come back.

Maybe Gillian Welch has a point to offer in regards to “singing it ourselves”?

Every day I wake up
humming a song
But I don’t need to run around
I just stay at home
Sing a little love song,
my love and myself
If it’s something that you want to hear
You can sing it yourself
Cause everything is free now
that’s what I said
No one’s gotta listen to the words in my head
Someone hit the big score
I figured it out
And I’m gonna do it anyway
even if it doesn’t pay

(Sorry for the irony)

I do think more people learning to sing, play instruments, etc. would be beneficial. In the 19th century there was something called parlor music, where before recorded music became popular, they would get songbooks and sing and play from them if they wanted to hear a song less expensively. Not that that is the solution but it shows how people did it before

Learning to sing/play music is healthy for the brain too!

Modern society seems to push people into ever more specialization. I don’t think this is good for us, we are meant to be well rounded human beings! Maybe we don’t need to do everything but the one pointed focus is bad for making connections between things (e.g. in science and other realms) and reflects the assembly line model of society.

There is a local old-time duo I saw the other day that is good but doesn’t have anything at all that’s recorded—the only way you would hear them is by going out and hearing them! In this case they had a tip jar that was well announced (though that doesn’t feel like the best solution to me, however it was not an ordinary place).

And a musician I know, left three songs out of the online versions of his album (and in my opinion they were some of the best of the songs), because they couldn’t guarantee that the songs were in the right order, so they can only be heard on CD or vinyl—in the right order.

I play and sing and write songs, and am moderately good at it, but don’t ever want to “be a musician” of the sort who tours around, publishes things, etc. It seems stressful and I want to focus on things like picking mushrooms and acorns in the woods!

The other night while I was sorting and cracking acorns I started singing spontaneously, a little acorn song of sorts. I didn’t write it out beforehand, just sang something that seemed fitting. In previous times this was so common. Masanobu Fukuoka wrote something along the lines of “gone now is the sound of the woodcutter’s song”—maybe, we can sing it again?



Oops, rambled off topic— as can be told from the story of the person who left three of the best songs out of streaming, it seems like musicians could just refuse to put their music out that way and some have. I think an equally salient question is, despite streaming not being very helpful to musicians, how can listeners (by any means) do their best to support the musicians they listen to?

I will jump into the fray.....

Growing up in the 80s, it was totally commonplace to have a tape in the tape deck while listening to the radio and wait for that song to come on at which point I would hit record and I would have a free copy.  Was this ripping off the artists?  Turns out the answer is a great big "NO."  Here are some reasons:

1)  Those mix tapes (what an 80s thing!) were a far cry from perfect.  They were on a tape with that hiss.  They had another song, DJ voice, or add at the beginning and end.  If I really wanted that song, I would go and buy the CD (again, totally a product of the 80s).

2)  My listening and waiting for the song got a lot of artists the type of airplay they wanted--the type that would sit and listen!

3)  CD's were expensive--for no good reason.  I can remember when I got my first CD player--I thought I had it MADE!  But the CD's were $15-$20.  Of course, we were all promised that this was merely an introductory price--the prices would come down in time as CDs became more widespread and there were economies of scale.  It made sense.

BUT IT WAS A FLAT OUT LIE!!

4)  Record labels had been price-fixing for years!  Sony records was the worst but there were others.  Sony was gouging customers, but they did NOT pay their artists.  When I found that part out, I no longer had any remorse whatsoever about copying any music file that I could.  Record labels had been ripping me off for years (to no benefit of the artist) so now I reasoned that a little turnabout was fair game.

5)  I still have absolutely no ethical problem making a copy--any copy--of any musical, video or any other computer file that I already own.  I don't care about the copyright if I already own my own copy.  So if I want to rip a CD or DVD or Blu Ray to my computer for my own consumption, I think that is my right to do--I already paid for the file in the first place.

6)  I do pay for a streaming service (Apple) and I know that they work closely with artists.  I assume that artists get some type of compensation.  I don't know the details.  That's not my business.  I did my part, and I got scammed (Sony) and I just want to listen to my music.


I am a little ranty about this, but my opinions are very strong.




Eric

I'm all aboard with Eric's strong opinions. I'll expand a bit on that.

Dual tape decks for making mixed tapes from other tapes and songs on the radio. Those were fun gifts and not illegal in my view. I already paid with money or advert hears for those songs.

Good luck trying to leave cloud based digital libraries or streaming playlists to someone when you die. When I die, someone will get a sweet stack of physical media that they don't want. They can turn it into money if they want.

Many of the vinyl records I still purchase are soon worth more than I paid for them. They almost always come with free digital file downloads.

Most of the stuff that I like is smaller label stuff and I want to support the artists and the labels so that they continue to put out music. Most of those bands will choose to allow their entire albums to stream for free just so people can hear them and decide if they want to support them. I think streaming probably helps artists overall by making it easier for anyone interested to hear music that they never would have heard before.

To Gillian's point I also totally agree. I can't think of any people I would consider artists that wouldn't still be doing it if they never made a dime off their art.

I think streaming is so popular because it's kinda hard to choose what to listen to. That's when I end up singing gibberish songs to myself while I'm doing things. It's very fun even if it is just gibberish.