Value of crab apple?

Here in the PNW USA we have the native Pacific swamp crabapple.  It will graft to apples, but only through an intermediary like winter banana variety of apple.  Mine took about 8 years for the winter bananas to fruit, so it's not quick.  Much slower than other apples.  

My medlars are grafted onto quince rootstock, which is an optimal semi-dwarf at about 14 feet.  I think that quince, medlars, hawthorn can take pears to be grafted too.  Asian pears can take quince rootstock.  When you are pruning your quinces, stick one of them into the ground in the fall when the ground is moist.  Almost all of mine grow into quince trees, which you can then graft pears or asian pears onto.  Sorry about the grammar.
John S
PDX OR

Wild, crab, and otherwise less palatable apples also still produce excellent BBQ/smoking wood when pruned so that's another reason to keep them around in my book.

If you don't mind having a smooth puree, this tool might save the work of cutting and coring. It's only a hand tool, so I use it a lot for home canning tomato puree, applesauce, smooth jam, and things like that. I don't mind spending 5 or 10 minutes cranking a pot of simmered softened tomatoes, apple chunks or other fruit. If you are doing larger quantities it would not be adequate.

You need to get them very soft before running through this. I usually cook the fruits or tomatoes for a while in their own juices before running them through this. With crabapples it sounds like freezing them first so they go mushy, and then gently heating them in a pot till thoroughly soft would eliminate having to add water.

John Wolfram wrote:While crab apples have other uses, I'm skeptical about how much pollination benefit they provide in a polyculture setting. In a mono-culture of acre after acre of Red Delicious trees, they are useful because you can stick in a few crab apples and achieve good pollination. In a polyculture with several different varieties nearby, adding a crab apple for pollination seems a bit redundant.

Here's a good chart showing pollination compatibility for various apples.
https://www.acnursery.com/resources/pollination-charts/apple-chart

Thanks for this very helpful chart. I stand corrected. Indeed, there is a wide variety of apples that will pollinate other apples. I have a dozen different varieties, so I should be set!
Except for commercial growers, I think most folks want a variety of apples anyway. It's good insurance besides.
For some reason, the chart didn't print properly: I didn't have any little red squares. They all showed as white. Guess I will have to add them by hand, but it's weird.

My pigs, sheep, and rabbits all enjoyed the bounty of crap apples into the fall.   Now that I"m back in the city and only have rabbits,  I've scouted out a few places to forage for them so my rabbits can still enjoy them without me needing to plant any.   You can use a nut gathering roller type tool to quickly pick up a bucket full.   They tend to only grab the firm surface ones that fell recently, too, and not many of the softer broken ones that have started to decompose too.

I have a Fuji apple that I grown from seed. It does produce flower and apple. The apple was the size of the cherry the first year of fruiting. It's yellow and orange in color and tasted sweet. The fire blight got to the tree and I have to prune some of the branches including the top leader. It does fruit the 2nd year of fruiting, but all the fruits dropped during summer. It does not grown that much from spring to summer. In fall, it came back stronger. Now there are 3 leaders including the sugar sprout that grown from the lower branch. The sugar sprout branch was as big as the other 2 leaders. If they wanted to compete, I'll let them. Amazing sugar sprout considering that it has grown that big in less than a year. It's a crab apple? Likely, consider the size of the fruit. Regardless, it has some amazing green. The flowers turned pink to red and eventually turned white on full bloom.  

Mike Grande wrote:I have a Fuji apple that I grown from seed. It does produce flower and apple. The apple was the size of the cherry the first year of fruiting. It's yellow and orange in color and tasted sweet. The fire blight got to the tree and I have to prune some of the branches including the top leader. It does fruit the 2nd year of fruiting, but all the fruits dropped during summer. It does not grown that much from spring to summer. In fall, it came back stronger. Now there are 3 leaders including the sugar sprout that grown from the lower branch. The sugar sprout branch was as big as the other 2 leaders. If they wanted to compete, I'll let them. Amazing sugar sprout considering that it has grown that big in less than a year. It's a crab apple? Likely, consider the size of the fruit. Regardless, it has some amazing green. The flowers turned pink to red and eventually turned white on full bloom.  

So you grew a "Fuji" from a pip. Kudos to you, and you stayed with it till fruiting. You are patient. As you know they cannot grow "true to seed". That is why you have something that is closer to a crab than an apple.
Either there is a lot of fire blight in you area or the specimen you are growing is prone to it. Can you compare with other apple trees you or your neighbor might have? If you want to keep this Fuji, it will be a lot of work and you won't be able to grow a quality apple unless you graft something else on it. [Since you seem to have a stock that is prone to fire blight, however, perhaps you should consider starting from scratch [I know, there is sentimental value to a tree you grew from a pip. I've done it too...]
The cheapest way to get quality trees is to purchase the stock and the scion separately and do a graft, (or have that orchard do it for you). It is more expensive than planting pips like Johnny Appleseed, but you will grow a better apple.
Stock can be bought when small for $10 or so, or you can get stock for free if you have an apple tree that "suckers" from under the graft. [Around now [October], you can place a homer pail without a bottom over the suckers and fill it with good potting soil. Next year, when leaves appear, you will have several small stock trees to graft. Scions can be had for not much either, even for free if you have some to exchange, depending on the cultivar. In the time of Johnny Appleseed, things were simpler but with complex hybridization, when you purchase a fruit at the market you really do not know anything about the parentage and the many permutations you can have are in the millions.
If you really want to save it, this is the best site I've found on the topic:
https://www.marinij.com/2019/07/19/how-to-save-your-fire-blight-infected-tree/
Good luck to you, whatever you decide.

Milan Broz wrote:Is there a reason to include crab apple in design also?

A critical part of food forest design is planning for succession, which is where crab apples can play an important intermediate role. They are easy and fast to grow and aren't super long-lived, which makes them ideal candidates for the 1st generation of "intermediate canopy" layer that can shelter the slower-growing trees that will eventually make up the real actual long term canopy layer (eg oak, hickory, walnut, chestnut, etc). Many of the permanent canopy trees can tolerate a bit (or a lot) of shade when young, and some even grow better with shade while young if the food forest planting is placed in a full-sun-all-day super-hot kind of place.

I have about an acre that I've been planting various kinds of walnuts and hickory seedlings (juglone producing species, which reportedly kills apples), interplanted with crabapples. The idea is that the apples will shoot up first, giving the walnuts a bit of protection from the afternoon sun in the summer and the drying winds in the winter, and after 10-15-20 years if the walnuts haven't already killed the apple trees I will cut them down and have a huge harvest of apple wood ($$$). At that point the walnuts should be mature enough to start producing nuts, and opening them up to full sunlight will help boost their nut production.

As for using the crab apples for eating, I find that the red-fleshed crabapples make the best cider, and they tend to hang on the tree well into the fall/winter after the leaves have dropped, which makes harvesting them super easy - lay out tarps beneath the tree and then shake the branches vigorously. One autumn I harvested 150 gallons of them and pressed them into cider, which was described by several people as "the best thing I've ever tasted."

As for using the crab apples for wood, smaller pieces work great for all kinds kitchen utensils and handles, and also cooking/smoking wood. And as for larger pieces (logs) of apple wood, they are highly sought after for fine wood working and they are very expensive. With my walnut/crab apple planting, I'm going to manage the crab apple trees as if they were a commercial woodlot, limbing them up to produce straight and knot-free lumber of as large of diameter as possible.

Md Jones wrote:I have hunted since 2017 for a Chestnut Crabapple in the Midwest, and just got 2 lovely specimens from a great nursery in Apple Vallet MN named Pahls this fall (2021). This is the tree my kids grew up under, in Grandma's MN backyard that made the best eating, sauce and pie apples ever. Perfect 2-inch apples, lovely May blooms, sweet yet complex flavor, disease resistant...the total package. The time it took me to find a nursery in a 4 state search radius with available stock should be enough to support their desirability. If you find one, buy it...you won't ever regret the investment!

Oo! My local apple nursery sells this so now I want one!

Not sure if I have crab apple tree or not. It was a store bought tree. We called it the Charlie Brown apple tree because it was bush hogged twice and run over twice. It struggled but kept on growing. Finally, it died (the graft died) but the root stock took off. So we really don't know what we have. It has 1000s of tiny (pea size fruit) not sure you can do anything with them

Saralee Couchoud wrote:Not sure if I have crab apple tree or not. It was a store bought tree. We called it the Charlie Brown apple tree because it was bush hogged twice and run over twice. It struggled but kept on growing. Finally, it died (the graft died) but the root stock took off. So we really don't know what we have. It has 1000s of tiny (pea size fruit) not sure you can do anything with them

The "Charlie Brown crab apple" would be a very fitting name. It is definitely a survivor!
If you have apple trees, you will get more apples. It will also give you more pollinators for your garden and any livestock will like their fruit. If it is the kind with fruits that stays on all winter, it will make it easier for more birds to survive. Depending on Charlie Brown's size, you may want to try and graft apples you might prefer on one of the branches, and if that takes, start clipping away the part of the tree that is more 'crabby'.
Finally, if you are into smoking your meats, you can take the wood and dry it to use in smoking meats.
Charlie Brown isn't done giving on this "giving Tuesday".

Thank you for that information. I do have 2 apple trees next to it so I guess it's best to let it be. It probably could stand a pruning and smoking meat sounds great. I don't have a shortage of room so keeping it is no problem. I appreciate your input

Crab apple jelly is my children’s’ very favorite kind of jelly!
And people are usually happy to let you harvest them for free as they have no use for them.
Seriously- it’s really good! My climate now is too warm for them and it’s sad.

No one has mentioned the reason crab apples are very high on my list in Missouri. They are not affected by Cedar-Apple rust. That is a MAJOR issue around here.

We won't consider it a food forest without a Chestnut Crab. Bred by the University of Minnesota, my kids were raised on Grandma's trees applesauce and Apple crisp. Glorious kid-sized tasty fruits and a lovely tree for pollinating other apples as well!

Also a good source for making pectin for other processes.

As for breeding true in mixed orchards mentioned above the answer is NO.  If you get seeds from an apple orchard partially pollinated with crab apples,  Some of the trees will be from other apples,  some will have crab apple traits when fully mature but you can not otherwise tell them from normal apples and finally some will look and taste like crab apples.  Early you can often tell the last batch by leaf color in the spring if you have a crab apple with the purplish leaves as pollination source.  Some of your cross breed apple trees will show the purplish leaves in the spring while others have true green leaves only.  My lesson in this came from a decade ago when I got Gala apples from the grocery store.  Was slow making apple sauce with them and found many the seed were sprouting inside the fruit.  So I planted all the seeds and got over 50 trees from it.  Gave most away.  If they looked like a crab tree leaf they are producing crab apples.  Others are a mixture of great apples and garbage depending on the tree.

When I first started an orchard, I didn't have much money to buy expensive apple trees. Crab apples were really cheap then, and they helped my few apple trees produce impressive crops.
Now, I keep them mostly for juice and jellies, because of the pectin. I do have maybe 50 other apple trees, so my crabs are not as valuable now.
I should try to grow some Granny Smith apples as they are richer than others in pectin, but in zone 4b, it is somewhat iffy because of the late frosts, sometimes.

I love my Centennial Crab! It fulfills the role of cross pollinator and bee attractor, but its prolific crops of beautiful mandarin orange-sized fruits are not only fragrant, crisp and delicious. They make the BEST  apple butter. They also make good apple mead.

The fruit is a perfect size for small children. Two or 3 adult bites.

Lynn Sue wrote:I love my Centennial Crab! It fulfills the role of cross pollinator and bee attractor, but its prolific crops of beautiful mandarin orange-sized fruits are not only fragrant, crisp and delicious. They make the BEST  apple butter. They also make good apple mead.

The fruit is a perfect size for small children. Two or 3 adult bites.

I am familiar with the Dolgo but not the Centennial. I'll have to try it...

C. Letellier wrote:As for breeding true in mixed orchards mentioned above the answer is NO.  If you get seeds from an apple orchard partially pollinated with crab apples,  Some of the trees will be from other apples,  some will have crab apple traits when fully mature but you can not otherwise tell them from normal apples and finally some will look and taste like crab apples.

This is my main reason for not wanting crabs around. I don't want their superior pollination if that's even a thing because I want to grow bigger, better apples when I plant the seeds.

Wickson crabs (https://pomiferous.com/applebyname/wickson-crab-id-6690) are really delicious and grow vigorously, fwiw! That said (contrary to a commenter above), they are moderately susceptible to rust and some other diseases, so it's not a good choice for every area. Apparently amazing for cider, though. I didn't get more than a dozen fruit before I had to move from my last house, so I never had enough to try cider; I just ate them straight. I now plan to plant a Dolgo, a Chestnut, and a Trailman crab if I can find them all for my forest garden (all disease resistant in my area). All are supposed to be tasty crabs that also work well for jelly or cider.

Unlike many people, I do really love to eat intensely flavored, tiny apples straight from the tree, so I think I'm just a crabapple sort of person! I also just chop the sides off the core of an apple, which isn't much of a hassle. It's a little less perfect than a proper corer, but it's fast, and it works fine for small apples, too.

Summer Cole wrote:

Milan Broz wrote:In newly planted food forest I have already several varieties of apple, besides other trees. Is there a reason to include crab apple in design also? I red about it is good for cider, and can't remember what else. But cider can be made from every apple, right? So, does crab apple have any advantage over domesticated apple? Like better pollinator, more frost hardy, more tolerant to poor soil, better for cider, better for jams, wildlife, etc?

They are better pollinators in the sense that they provide pollen over the entire apple season (if you have different crabapples, otherwise, no. If you have early and late apples or many different apple trees, the chances are you will have at least 2 pollinating their little hearts out at the right time.
Frost hardy: They are generally more frost hardy, surviving  in zone 2 (-50F) The Antonovka has the reputation of being the hardiest cultivar, surviving in zones 3 and 2b.
Poor soil? I don't know: There are so many different kinds of "poor soil", but I don't think that they are over all as finicky.
Better for cider: Yes, they are better for hard cider as they have more tannin, acid an even more sugars (But with the tannin and the acidity, your tongue doesn't experience the taste as very sweet.
Add yeast and the fermentation will take off fast!
Better for jams/ jellies: Yes, as they have a lot more pectin than regular apples, which are bred for eating fresh, as most cultivars are. If you don't have pectin, you can add a few crabapples instead of buying sore bought pectin. (The problem, though, is knowing exactly how much to add, as there will be variations with the degree of ripeness and even the crabapple cultivar.
Attractive to wildlife? Deer will stand on its hind legs to get crabapples, but they do that with my prized sweet sixteen too. And yes, they are also attractive to birds: these are more pests because they love to "sample" each and everyone to check if they are ripe enough! [AARGH!] and if you think about ripening them off the tree, nope: an apple does not get sweeter off the tree.

Crabapples are also more nutritious.  The nutrition in the apple is almost entirely in the skin.  Crabapples, being smaller, have more skin to pulp ratio.  Wickson and chestnut are my favorites. They are as good as the best apples.  They are epic for school gardens, because everyone can eat one.  They are better pollinators, also because there are more flowers per tree.  The whole tree doesn't have to be crabapple. You can graft in a crabapple on one branch, and another crabapple on a branch on another tree.

John S
PDX OR

John Suavecito wrote: They are better pollinators, also because there are more flowers per tree.  The whole tree doesn't have to be crabapple. You can graft in a crabapple on one branch, and another crabapple on a branch on another tree.

John S
PDX OR

That's such an interesting take, John. I would not want my orchard to be dominated by crabapples, and certainly, for folks who only have limited space, the grafting solution is the best.
One thing I was wondering: when grafted, would that branch flower at the same time as what it is grafted on, or would it flower at the normal time for this crabapple? Some apple trees bear every other year. How does the grafting influence fruiting in this respect?
That's what I've been wondering also with multiple apples grafted on one apple tree.