How to meet girls. Things every young guy should know.

Nicole, you were much more mature than I was, I hate to say. I didn't intend to accuse you of that behavior, need to be more careful in my writing. I don't think I had that kind of insight until I got it the hard way with a nearly failed marriage.

Come to think about it, I don't hate to say. I'm a pretty crappy person inherently. The only reason I don't behave as much like that anymore is the interval experiences. They were some tough lessons.

I was going to go more into how toxic I was in my own self as it relates to my dating years, but it becomes a little unseemly and televangelistic. I certainly was never an abuser or anything like that. I mean I was a good urban feminist (when it benefitted me). But even the average behavior in that situation was just rancid in retrospect. I am sure I contributed to an awful lot of terrible emotions and hurts. Part of recovery is to make amends, and there is no chance to do that directly. I hope I can do it indirectly through better guidance for my kids in this generation.

I can't think of anything from my high school days or immediately beyond that, where there was anything regrettable or anything to be ashamed of.

I guess the only exception might be missed opportunities. I know now that there was a girl named Lena, who liked me, but I didn't pick up the signals. I heard this through the grapevine long after marrying someone less suitable. The same with another girl named Sherry.

And then there was the time that I broke into a girl's car when she locked her keys in. She thanked me and said she should buy me coffee, and I said that's alright,  you don't expect to be paid for these little things. Then she offered to buy me dinner, but I gave a similar response. I told my friend about it that night, and he said, "you are an idiot. An absolute idiot. She wasn't trying to pay you for your locksmith services, you dummy, she was opening the door for you to ask her out on a date."

But that was then. Now I notice every movement, every adjustment of hair, giggle, or lean forward, or hand on my shoulder or reference to the woman being single. But that took some practice. I'm attached right now, but if I wasn't, I'd be a hound.

Here's a little tidbit. Suppose you are chatting with some grannies, about the intricacies of rammed-earth buildings, when suddenly, a woman of interest sits down a couple feet away. Don't immediately stop your story and turn your attention toward her. Just continue with what you were doing. At the very most, just turn toward her a little bit, just enough that she knows that she could be part of this conversation. If she is interested in rammed Earth, or the young man doing the ramming, pun intended, she will introduce herself and join in the conversation. It can be that simple. It helps if you can pontificate on a thousand different subjects. Be ready to be smart, interesting and mentally agile. You only get one chance at conversion, when a chance meeting like this occurs.

And make sure to choose your real estate well. If you're determined that you're going to eat at a restaurant, don't go to the one in the suburbs where 99% of the people coming in are going to be married. Choose a part of town where there are many more singles. And don't sit in the back, behind the bamboo divider. Go to where the people are. Sometimes there's a shortage of plugs, for telephones and laptops. Be the first one to sit there. Eventually, a woman of interest will need to plug in. And she will sit beside you.

Hey, that's how this thread started.

As you may have guessed already, it's a slow day for me. The Wi-Fi is out in the Philippines and I'm not on a demolition job. My whole body is in recovery from weightlifting, so here I am.

Lesbians. That's right, lesbians. They all know straight girls. Some of their friends and sisters and other acquaintances are straight girls. In fact, for many, most of the women they know are not shopping in the same dating pool as them. And women like to see other women hitched. Show them that you are not an idiot and certainly not the boorish patriarchal type that won't listen to women, and you may be in.

Gay guys often have many single female friends. My experience is that they won't put you through the wringer, the way that women might. I think some just want to make sure that everybody's having sex. So they make introductions, in the hope of facilitating that. That's awfully nice of them, I think.

Being introduced by somebody who is gay, works as a filter sometimes. Many highly religious people, like my ex-wife think that these guys are going to burn in hell for crimes against nature, so they wouldn't hang out with them. This means that an atheist like me, is more likely to be introduced to someone with similar liberal values to my own. And the guy conducting the introduction quite likely has a good idea of what sort of guy she would like. He may have already asked her what about him, would you like to see him naked? I have never gone to a gay bar, but my friend Brooks, who is straight, says that there is no ground so fertile, for a young straight man to meet available straight women. Seems crazy, but Brooks would know.

Tj Jefferson wrote:Nicole, you were much more mature than I was, I hate to say. I didn't intend to accuse you of that behavior, need to be more careful in my writing. I don't think I had that kind of insight until I got it the hard way with a nearly failed marriage.

Come to think about it, I don't hate to say. I'm a pretty crappy person inherently. The only reason I don't behave as much like that anymore is the interval experiences. They were some tough lessons.

But never forget, TJ Jefferson...you are forgiven!

Sadly I still act like this today; on here, when realize it when I get a private message from Girl Bot saying a post did not meet criteria. I know then that I was not exactly "being nice." Furthermore, I was not exactly "loving others like yourself."

In my marriage I often feel for Katie who has worked a 10 hour shift at the bank, and then comes home to four daughters that need this or that from her, and a husband who has not done a lot around the house. There are reasons for that, having cancer and building our Tiny House which we are 3 weeks away from moving into, but still Katie works all week, then at home on her days off. There is a lot of guilt on my end, and a lot of respect for what my wife does. She is DEFINATELY a Poverbs 31 woman, which fo those that know, those are some high, high standards.

Okay, so now I have to check out Proverbs 31. I hope this isn't like a silver bullet to a werewolf or holy water to a vampire.

Here I go.  Atheist looking up Bible verses.

I found an old paper version of the King James version. I opened it up, but it quickly burst into flames in my hands.

Then I found this online version, and it seems to be okay, although my phone is getting very hot and I will have to take the battery out for a while. I hope it doesn't go the way of those Samsung devices.

So here it is, the verses that Travis referred to. He obviously hold his wife in high regard. Can an atheist get into trouble for trying to spread religion on the forum?
......Proverbs 31:10-31 New International Version (NIV)
Epilogue: The Wife of Noble Character
10 [a]A wife of noble character who can find?
    She is worth far more than rubies.
11 Her husband has full confidence in her
    and lacks nothing of value.
12 She brings him good, not harm,
    all the days of her life.
13 She selects wool and flax
    and works with eager hands.
14 She is like the merchant ships,
    bringing her food from afar.
15 She gets up while it is still night;
    she provides food for her family
    and portions for her female servants.
16 She considers a field and buys it;
    out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17 She sets about her work vigorously;
    her arms are strong for her tasks.
18 She sees that her trading is profitable,
    and her lamp does not go out at night.
19 In her hand she holds the distaff
    and grasps the spindle with her fingers.
20 She opens her arms to the poor
    and extends her hands to the needy.
21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household;
    for all of them are clothed in scarlet.
22 She makes coverings for her bed;
    she is clothed in fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is respected at the city gate,
    where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
    and supplies the merchants with sashes.
25 She is clothed with strength and dignity;
    she can laugh at the days to come.
26 She speaks with wisdom,
    and faithful instruction is on her tongue.
27 She watches over the affairs of her household
    and does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise and call her blessed;
    her husband also, and he praises her:
29 “Many women do noble things,
    but you surpass them all.”
30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting;
    but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised.
31 Honor her for all that her hands have done,
    and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.

Dale Hodgins wrote:  Can an atheist get into trouble for trying to spread religion on the forum?

I don't know about atheists spreading religion and all that. But, Dale, I think YOU can get trouble on these forums for just about anything. You've got super skills in that arena .

You've got super skills in that arena .


That's what she said !!!😈😨😈

Dale Hodgins wrote:So here it is, the verses that Travis referred to. He obviously holds his wife in high regard

I do...

In particular Proverbs 31, verse 30..."Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised".

This relates to my wife because I know her so well, but there are others Christian Permicultural woman that I admire for this quality as well.

Get a puppy. I saw a guy hanging out at the Uptown Mall with what appeared to be a corgi puppy. There are very few things cuter. I've seen many babies that are much uglier. Much uglier! It's funny when your peak into a stroller expecting to see a cute baby, and it looks like a chubby little rat :-)

Anyway back to the puppy. This guy was meeting one person after another. I don't know what his intentions were, because he's an older guy, but older guys like to meet women.

Puppies grow up and they aren't so cute anymore. That's why I suggest getting a black Labrador Retriever. They behave like a puppy all their lives and they also make a really good dog for a farm and for kids. Highly protective. When you do eventually get into a conversation with the lady who you met while walking the dog, you can get into the reasons why you got this dog instead of some horrible beast that should be put down immediately. It opens the door for all sorts of discussion.

I remember one time this happened with me, when I was out walking Peggy, the black lab that was supposed to belong to my children, but that I inherited as they got older. I was chatting with his woman and she brought up the idea of going to the pound to save some Pitbull that might otherwise not get adopted. She said some other odd things, but that particular red flag told me that we would be a complete mismatch. So I didn't attempt to make this little relationship go any further than the 5 minutes that it was.

Having the dog there, allows the conversation to be steered in many directions. You can talk about the public policy regarding dog parks, dangerous dogs, and allowing dogs to roam freely. That might open the door for you to talk about letting them roam freely on your farm. Then she knows that you're not broke, because you've got that land. It could go an entirely different direction and you can talk about how friendly these dogs are with children. Perhaps you and her could produce those children. Or maybe you can both pet the dog, and you could accidentally run your hand over hers, and comment on how wonderfully smooth her skin is.

See how that works. The dog is a prop, that can get you into any number of social interactions. Your dog doesn't mind being used in this way. Dogs want to have everybody petting them at once, unless it's one of those rotten dogs that wants to bite everybody. But you've chosen wisely, so that's not an issue.

I can't think of any other prop a person could have that can lead in so many directions. Suppose you had a fancy car. The only direction that could go, is perhaps she likes fancy cars. So if all goes well, you might find that you have a tire biter riding beside you in that car. I forget where I heard that term but I like it. Tire biter. It's a girl who hooks up with a man because of his car. Say it with me, tire biter. Are you picturing a really intelligent girl? I'm not.

I used a picture of me holding a lamb in my profile...and actually wrote meaningful conversation to Katie on Christian Mingle. Katie later said I was one of very few people who wrote more than, "You look hot. So what's up?"

8 years later we have celebrated 7 years of marriage, had two babies, share in the life of 3 step daughters between us, built two houses, bought our farm, and still have meaningful conversations.

The majority of her responses on Christian Mingle were "You look hot. So what's up?" I am SO GLAD I never did online dating. But, I guess it's an easy way to weed out most people. You just would have thought that guys would be smarter to post something so shallow on a site where people are looking for someone to be with for the rest of their life.

As for Proverbs 31:30 (Charm is deceitful and beauty is vain, but a woman who fears the Lord, she shall be praised) was always one of my favorite verses. In high school I took great pains to try to conceal my figure so as not to attract people interested only in appearances  (baggy clothes are great!)

Thinking about the verse in the context of this conversation, I'm pretty sure it could be applied to guys, too. Seems like a lot of the women in this thread probably think something that could be summed up as "'Game' is deceitful and good-looks waste away, but a guy who is authentic and works his hardest, he's one to keep"

Nicole - I feel the same way, never done online dating, never will. And I hear it's not a great way to weed out people, because everyone lies. There are sites for hook-ups and sites for relationships, but I hear that most people on the relationship sites are just looking for hook-ups. I don't get it. It's 2018, it's not difficult finding people who just want to hook-up, why lie?

I'm no longer Christian, but even when I was God was not something to be feared, but I do like the rest of it. And I completely agree that 'game' and the rest of that nonsense is just that, nonsense. Be authentic, anything else will be found out.

That being said, my ex was lying to himself as much as he was lying to me, so maybe figure out who you are and what you want.

I have been on a few dating sites and the majority of women that I've met there are genuine, they're not looking to hustle or deceive, so far as I can tell. I've met quite a few.

Some of the foreign sites have girls who just place one interest message after another, but even there where I got hundreds of messages, the majority were not cut and paste messages.

To me, it makes sense because it allows me to cast a wide net. It's like me using Google if I want to know something, instead of just asking whoever I see in my immediate vicinity.

Some of the women have told me horror stories about hugely deceptive practices perpetrated by men. But I haven't heard many men say that they've had the same problem. So, I guess I'm lucky that I'm not looking for a man. The behavior seems to be much worse. And I think that has helped me, because I put a very extensive profile, leaving no stone unturned, similar to when I comment on posts here. Some like it and some don't, and I guess the ones who messaged me, are the ones who do like it.

It can be a major time suck, which is why I was absent here for a while. But it cost far less than going out on real dates. That is until you hop on a plane and travel Halfway Around the World, which I did and which didn't work out in the past. But the other relationships right here in Victoria haven't worked out, so that doesn't change my resolve. I'm sure that I can do much better, batting above my weight if you will, with these online sites.

Around here, by the time you are going on 'dates', the relationship has already progressed fairly far. Other than meeting online people or blind dates, it just isn't how things are done anymore. So I don't understand how this would be costly. I'm no spring chicken, I'm 47, and that kind of dating has never been a thing in my lifetime, around here. It seems more reminiscent of the 50's. It certainly isn't how things have been with my kids. Couples have dates, singles attend events.

Stacy Witscher wrote:Nicole - I feel the same way, never done online dating, never will. And I hear it's not a great way to weed out people, because everyone lies. There are sites for hook-ups and sites for relationships, but I hear that most people on the relationship sites are just looking for hook-ups. I don't get it. It's 2018, it's not difficult finding people who just want to hook-up, why lie?

I'm no longer Christian, but even when I was God was not something to be feared, but I do like the rest of it. And I completely agree that 'game' and the rest of that nonsense is just that, nonsense. Be authentic, anything else will be found out.

That being said, my ex was lying to himself as much as he was lying to me, so maybe figure out who you are and what you want.

I agree with this and what Nicole wrote.  

I tried online dating before I decided I was happy single and yes, guys either didn't read my profile and therefore missed huge core value differences or they lied in answers to questions to say they wanted a relationship when they really just wanted to hook up.

What you wrote about your ex is true of mine as well.  I'm not sorry for the relationship - I grew a ton from being with him and even more from extricating myself from him - and it helped me fine-tune what I will and won't accept and what's important to me.  And I know better what I have to offer too.

Stacy , I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Are you saying that if a guy meets a girl that he fancies, he doesn't ask her out for coffee or a meal, or to the movies or some event? I've never heard of such a place, where this doesn't happen. Well maybe some seriously screwed up place where that sort of thing isn't allowed.

Here's one of the weirdest things that ever happened to me, while I was attempting to talk to a woman at a public event. We were chatting away and a guy that she knows vaguely, decided that it was his job to make sure that nothing happens. He sat next to us and continually inserted himself into the conversation. He called into question, the work that I do, flatly stating that you can't cut a house in half, and certainly one guy couldn't do it on his own. So, I produced some pictures of me doing exactly that, and then I asked the woman, do you know this guy and do you want him here? She did know him. He was a neighbor, and she did not want him there. So, I asked him to allow us to have a two-person conversation. He said, I can sit wherever I like. And I agreed. Then I said we are going to move over there, don't follow us.

And we went and sat on a picnic table. He continued to glare, I think because he really wanted to continue running interference. Now, we weren't talking about work or anything, except for mr. Weirdo, with whom she had had other uncomfortable conversations while walking home from work. He liked to ask her probing questions about her personal life, probably because he thought there was some way for him to be part of it. I said, "Hey I know what will will really freak him out. Hold my hand and don't let go of it." She did. You could see the poor devil squirm. And we both had a laugh at his expense. There was a man with no game.

We just deleted a post of someone who thought it would be good to insult the character of member here on permies. We have a "Be Nice" policy here on permies, and that sort of thing is not tolerated.

Sometimes, perhaps, Dale's writing comes off sounding to some people like he might be a "jerk." Sometimes I wondered this myself... And then he went out of his way, to a country far away, to work his butt off for a moderator who had just lost her husband.

Here's a thread detailing all that https://permies.com/t/85903/permaculture-projects/work-Burra-place-visiting-Portugal

And, here's a picture of him chopping wood for that very same widow. When Burra shared the picture of Dale chopping her wood, I photoshopped on the words to the picture. The act he did for her, and the things he's done for so many people, speak words to his character. (Too bad this picture doesn't show his face--I think it'd be a great picture for Dale to use to attract the ladies )



Actions speak louder than words. "Game" or not, Dale has a great heart. Some of us may not like "game"--but that doesn't mean it's wrong, and there are probably ladies that DO like "game" and one of them might be the perfect lady for Dale. I hope so. Dale's a great guy!



EDIT: I also thought I'd mention, sometimes the way people express themselves online is very different than how they are in real life. My husband--who is a fantastic guy--has told me on several occasions that he would get banned right away on permies, because he's a bit forthright about telling people when they are "wrong" and sometimes he does so in a "not nice" way. I've read some of his posts elsewhere online, and he sure does sound like a jerk. He's the furthest thing from it in real life!

Please everyone remember that even when we don't agree with how someone else thinks or presents themselves, that DOES NOT mean they are a horrible person. Let's remember to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

Thank you, Nicole.

I would like to assure everyone that I am much much more of a prick in real life, where I'm not constrained by the niceness policy.

I prefer to use my David Attenborough voice, as I say things that would make Christopher Hitchens blush. It's fun to watch how rattled the opponent's get. When you do that, some people will completely lose their shit. By doing so, they have declared themselves the loser, despite the quality of their argument.

But we're not here to discuss the niceness policy. We're trying to figure out how young fellows can meet women, by whatever means necessary.

Let's make a list of things that women like to go to but men are also welcome. I don't think I'd want to crash a knitters club or a feminist organization. There's lots of other activities, like yoga and environmental causes and let's be angry about this causes, where lots of women join.

So I'll start the list off.

Clubs of all sorts. Women like to join clubs. I've never been a joiner. I joined this site in 2011 and I don't think I've joined anything since. But some of you are probably joiners.

Sports. Some women like to play sports and some like to watch. If you choose UFC fighting, the pool of women is going to be small. Develop a taste for figure skating or synchronized swimming, and the pool is as large as the one they're swimming in.

There are sports like baseball, which have male and female players on the same team. I'm sure these could be good. The only issue I have with them is that they often turn into drinking clubs.

Church, mosque, synagogue and devil worshipping caves. All great places to meet like-minded women. Maybe not mosques, I think they separate them, but I could be wrong.

Thrift stores. Women love to sort through stuff and they like to chat while they do it. All you have to do is come out of the changing room and ask whether this shirt looks good on you. You're going to get numerous opinions offered.

Bars and nightclubs. Most people will be familiar. I have never drank alcohol, so I haven't spent huge amounts of time in those places. But there was a time when I would go only to places that had open mic night, and I would get up and sing. That's a highly effective way to meet women. I sometimes tailored my song list to fit a woman in the audience.

You don't have to be able to sing. There are poetry slams and creative writing get-togethers where you hop on stage and deliver your stuff and lots more things like that. Once you come down off of that stage, any woman who is interested in you, has a good excuse to strike up a conversation. She may tell you that that was a wonderful song or a very interesting poem, and that might be all that it means. But it could just as easily mean that she's interested in you.

Nicole Alderman wrote:

Sometimes, perhaps, Dale's writing comes off sounding to some people like he might be a "jerk." Sometimes I wondered this myself... And then he went out of his way, to a country far away, to work his butt off for a moderator who had just lost her husband.

Appreciate that post Nicole. Being a newbie to this forum I was thinking similar unkind thoughts, but that link certainly shows Dale to be a bloke who helps others in need, and perhaps wears his heart on his sleeve.

On ya Canuck, you da man Dale!

Sarah Koster wrote:I wish a mature, sensible lady would make a thread like this for the women!
I'm having a hell of a time finding anybody online who doesn't give off a predatory vibe. As a woman, I find that pick up lines are a clear signal that I'm not being viewed as a fellow human, but rather as an antelope unto a lion. This obviously is uncomfortable and makes me want to stay away from that person. I'm never going to feel comfortable enough with a dude to be open to a relationship unless he can talk to me like I'm one of the dudes, minus the dirty jokes. Once we've established a basic human connection, the options open but as long as I'm treated as a distinct species I'm gonna make for the woods and hide from the menfolk. They're cannibals, I tell you. Cannibals.

Some days I agree with you. And YES, I'd LOVE a thread like this started by a woman with a clue. I'm pretty certain I'm not one :) And maybe if the women started the thread, the guys would learn from what we said. Who is wise enough to start it for women? (Dale, I think you are disqualified. Or maybe not...) Or I suppose I could start it and see if wise women chime in... Hmmm....

Edit:: How to meet men: Things every young lady should know Done!

Thank you everyone. I think the best that we can do is present Our Truth. But we must not state that it is the only truth. Some people are articulate enough to do this and mature enough to not get rattled when someone disagrees with them. I've experienced similar situations to today's dust up, in real life.

I was talking with some acquaintances concerning government farm policy, when an onlooker, who was not part of the conversation, became very rattled. This wasn't something where I would say a sentence and then someone else would say a sentence and back and forth like that. Others had had their say, so mine was a long oratory which kindly explained that each of them had no idea how these things work. And by the end of it, I had some convert.

So, this guy who sat silently on the sidelines got up and said," that's your opinion!" I said yes it is, do you have one? He said it again, that's your opinion, fucking idiot as he walked out the door. We will never know if he had some sort of opposing opinion, or if he was just bothered by the confidence with which I delivered mine.

I don't believe humility to be a virtue. And if we have something to say, I don't think it's necessary to be redundant and say that this is just my opinion, or just say that I don't really know about this but, or to preface it in anyway. If you're the one talking, I think it's understood that it's your opinion coming out. So I always deliver exactly what I think, without the sugar coating.

Back to helping guys find chicks. I have often directed women toward these forums. Anyone interested , could pretty easily snoop around and discover for themselves that I can be long-winded. I don't give them a kinder, gentler, weaker and more subdued version of myself, in the hopes of getting laid. I don't pretend to like the various bits of medical nonsense that I hear many women advocate. I make it clear that I'm done with the body acceptance crowd, who will tell them that it's okay to be incredibly unhealthy, and if I think they've said something incredibly dumb, I don't let it slide. I'm sure this limits my chances sometimes. I'm willing to accept that.

Let's all try that today, outside of this forum. Try saying exactly what you think, the next time somebody says something really dumb. Don't hold back. You will win friends and enemies in equal measure. Being my own boss, I have a job that I can't get fired from. Therefore I can pontificate on immigration policy, crime and punishment policy or the fact that I'm not a fan of universal suffrage. I think there should be some sort of test. I've had customers stop at my jobs, but then tell me that they aren't really shopping for lumber today. They just wondered what Politically Incorrect thing I might be able to entertain them with on that day. I usually don't disappoint. Some girls like that and some find it absolutely abhorrent, that a guy would present opinions that haven't been run through some sort of committee first.

But enough about me. How we going to get these young fellows laid? Oops, I mean how are we going to find them really nice girlfriends who are very compatible with them.

Be wary of deal killers.

There are some things that someone could find out about you, that will instantly put them off, at least in the beginning.

I think it's important that you eventually come clean about every single thing that you think and do. Well, maybe everything except for explaining those porn spikes on your data plan.

For me, this means not bringing up the fact that I live at my job sites, in the first two minutes of a conversation. But, if we've been talking about a dozen other things, then it's not going to even be much of a surprise, since so much of what I talk about is rather unorthodox. By the time I've been talking to someone for 10 minutes, I'm able to easily explain why I've chosen to live at work and the financial benefits of not paying rent, while earning a good living.

Then there's my disdain for certain groups of people. Druggies, drunks and a few others. Eventually this is going to come out, but I don't think the first 2 minutes is the time for a long diatribe about who ought to be killed. Let's leave that up to George Carlin.

Sometimes a deal-killer just jumps out at you. An insistence on being religious is an obvious one for me. When there is something glaringly obvious like that, I don't think it's a good idea to conceal it. Put it out there and you can part as friends.

I've had women present deal killers, completely accidentally. One woman describe a a litany of problems she had had with various exes. Every man she had ever known was no good. So I decided not to join that list. Another told me about her plan to cover most of her body in tattoos. No thanks. But mostly it's much more mild things that tell you when something couldn't possibly work out. It might be something as simple as learning that she believes aromatherapy can cure all cancers. That's a really nice thought, but that's where we need to part ways.
........
Here's one that should have been a deal killer, but somehow it wasn't. My dad really didn't like to eat slop. He liked food that you could identify, because it wasn't covered in some sort of goo. And my mom is a slop cook. She could take nice steak and turn it into shoe leather or other palatable ingredients, and make them all into a sort of mush, fit for pigs. Dad ate that slop for 50 years. I remember one time, he said "didn't we have swill last night?" That didn't go over very well.

I'm a very good cook, and I think my mother deserves some of the credit. I got tired of the slop.

Dale Hodgins wrote:Let's make a list of things that women like to go to but men are also welcome.

I'm one of these guys with no face-to-face game.  Most of my successful (er, well, not sure what that means, maybe just say "lengthy") relationships have been the product of common interests discovered online somehow.  But in fifty years on this earth I have discovered one "joiner" strategy that works pretty well for lonely men.  Mind you, it doesn't necessarily work for fussy lonely men; that old saying about "the odds are good but the goods are odd" comes to mind.  But I take the viewpoint that if you're lonely enough to be strategizing about these things, you shouldn't be so fussy that you're complaining about the women your strategies are netting you. Moving on.

My parents were square dancers.  You know, "bow to your partner, circle left, alemande", all that.  String ties for the men, cowboy boots, knee length ruffled dresses for the ladies.  So as a really little kid getting dragged to their weekly practices and sometimes filling in when they were one short for a second square, I picked up a basic fluency in that particular flavor of paired/called dancing.  

It turns out there are a thousand kinds of paired dancing, depending on where you are and what the cultural/arts scene in the small city near you looks like.  Country line dancing, barn dancing, folk dancing, Morris dancers, Regency ballroom, a whole bunch I don't even know, but basically anything where people are paired or organized into groups of four or eight or long facing lines doing series of prepared dance moves or steps either memorized or as called out by a caller.  People love this shit, and by "people" I mean "women".  Anywhere you find a group that's doing this, there is a core group of couples and a secondary core of dedicated unattached women members and a permanent recruitment effort for new members featuring phrases like "no experience needed!" "We will teach you!" "Single men welcome!" Because most of these dance styles expect male/female pairings and most of the groups that do them for fun have about a 80/20 F/M ratio (or worse) in their unattached members.  Purely as a matter of pragmatics, each new man who shows up and is willing to be taught to dance is one less woman who has to dance male parts, which is possible and common but generally less fun for everybody.

So: the strategy is you find the group nearest you.  You show up to every scheduled practice and event (usually weekly) even if it's a bit of a drive from where you are.  You shower, you wear deodorant and a nice shirt.  You let them teach you whatever the dance style they are doing; you try not to step on too many feet or hurt anybody doing twirls or spins.  If you run toward sweaty palms, keep a little unscented body powder in your pockets, but be careful not to leave white handprints on yourself or others. "Charming" is probably not a thing you do, but do your best.  And then you just soldier for a few months, getting to know people and letting them get to know you.  Don't treat it like a meat market.  This will be easy because the ladies won't mostly be nubile nineteen year olds.  But the gender ratio will be hugely in your favor and your very presence will earn you enormous brownie points.  The grandmothers in the room will be trying to hook you up with the one young lady there who you noticed hard the first day but who is cool toward you; and those grandmothers rule the fucking world wherever you find them.  If they invite you somewhere, go; they probably have granddaughters.  Be nice to everybody; this is just like the fairytales where the old crone with whom you share your lunch turns out to be the princess in disguise.  (Actually this is great advice for life in general.)

But this whole dance group thing is so easy it's almost a scam.  The gender imbalance and the fact that you are putting in effort to be useful to a whole bunch of ladies brings you a bunch of positive attention from an entire social group, which never ends badly for you.  You can blow it by being creepy; so don't be creepy.  But otherwise, it's a great way for a lonely man with no game to be in a solid relationship with a nice woman in less than six months, almost guaranteed.  And even if you "fail", you'll have a new group of friends, so how is that bad?

Travis Johnson wrote:I used a picture of me holding a lamb in my profile...and actually wrote meaningful conversation to Katie on Christian Mingle.

You mentioned once before using a picture of a lamb in your profile on Christian Mingle.  At the time I was too busy to respond but I really did guffaw aloud when I saw that.  I mean, sure, you're a sheep farmer, use your assets, a lamb's an asset.  But the symbology ... isn't that cheating?  Isn't that basically just shooting fish (more symbology) in a rain barrel?  

Don't get me wrong, this is pure admiration talking.  But I still grin every time I think about it.  Marketing genius!

That is totally awesome. I never would have thought of that particular angle. Around here we have various Latin dance groups. The dances are much more sexy than what you find with line dancing and square dancing and that sort.

There are some Canadian fellows living on the cold prairies. I'll bet you could get a traditional Ukrainian costume, dance it up and before long some nice girl will be feeding you pierogies.

Dale Hodgins wrote:Be wary of deal killers.

There are some things that someone could find out about you, that will instantly put them off, at least in the beginning.

I think it's important that you eventually come clean about every single thing that you think and do. Well, maybe everything except for explaining those porn spikes on your data plan.

For me, this means not bringing up the fact that I live at my job sites, in the first two minutes of a conversation. But, if we've been talking about a dozen other things, then it's not going to even be much of a surprise, since so much of what I talk about is rather unorthodox. By the time I've been talking to someone for 10 minutes, I'm able to easily explain why I've chosen to live at work and the financial benefits of not paying rent, while earning a good living.

Then there's my disdain for certain groups of people. Druggies, drunks and a few others. Eventually this is going to come out, but I don't think the first 2 minutes is the time for a long diatribe about who ought to be killed. Let's leave that up to George Carlin.

Sometimes a deal-killer just jumps out at you. An insistence on being religious is an obvious one for me. When there is something glaringly obvious like that, I don't think it's a good idea to conceal it. Put it out there and you can part as friends.

I've had women present deal killers, completely accidentally. One woman describe a a litany of problems she had had with various exes. Every man she had ever known was no good. So I decided not to join that list. Another told me about her plan to cover most of her body in tattoos. No thanks. But mostly it's much more mild things that tell you when something couldn't possibly work out. It might be something as simple as learning that she believes aromatherapy can cure all cancers. That's a really nice thought, but that's where we need to part ways.
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Here's one that should have been a deal killer, but somehow it wasn't. My dad really didn't like to eat slop. He liked food that you could identify, because it wasn't covered in some sort of goo. And my mom is a slop cook. She could take nice steak and turn it into shoe leather or other palatable ingredients, and make them all into a sort of mush, fit for pigs. Dad ate that slop for 50 years. I remember one time, he said "didn't we have swill last night?" That didn't go over very well.

I'm a very good cook, and I think my mother deserves some of the credit. I got tired of the slop.

Very good post Dale.... that is funny about slop! My mother has cooked for her whole life, but has never really learned how to cook. Don't get me wrong, I think she's a pretty good cook, however, unorthodox, and cheap. Some of her creations include corn casserole, tuna salad sandwiches, pizza on bread slices, salmon loaf, jello with fruit, egg salad, things like that. My wife, on the other hand, likes to make steak and potatoes, green bean casserole, mac and cheese, ramen noodle soup, you know, the traditionals.

I've told my wife many many times "food is food, I don't give a flying fig what you cook" and she never seems to understand that concept.

One of my favorite dishes is grated potatoes cooked just until they don't taste raw anymore and topped with salsa, sour cream, and cheese. My wife hates it. Many times I will make Chinese potatoes- boil grated potatoes until they loose the raw crunch and then stir fry with other veggies topped with salsa, sour cream, and cheese. Incidentally, I read somewhere that you can have a very balanced diet with just potatoes and dairy!

You're a sick man J. But each to his own when it comes to food.

I've noticed in personal ads that sometimes women state their Deal Killers up front. If you voted for Trump go to hell. That kind of stuff.

I didn't vote for Trump. I'm Canadian and that option wasn't available. But even if it was, I wouldn't have. When he was still a candidate, I came up with this joke.
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I often think that the US needs to be brought down a notch or two. I think the Donald may be just the man to accomplish that.
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But, with that said, I would have no interest in the woman who has made that judgement on every guy who did vote for mr. Trump. I'm sure there were a litany of reasons to vote for him, that go well beyond fences and racism. So I would give her a hard pass.

Hard pass.
I learned that term hard pass, from my daughter. She is a very good looking, very accomplished young woman with a good profession. At a party, her friend wondered if she would be interested in dating a friend of her husband's, who needs a good girl to straighten him out so that he can get off the booze. He's a man of no accomplishment, other than three children he has produced with three different women. My daughter said I'm going to pass, that's a hard pass. Meaning that she had absolutely, positively never in a million years, even if he was the last man on Earth, interest in him. Hard pass. I like it.

I'm pretty sure that sometimes, I've been given a hard pass. It's usually after something I say. My ex-wife used to tell me that I need to just sit there and try to look handsome. Don't speak, that's what gets you into trouble.:-)

Dale Hodgins wrote:There are some Canadian fellows living on the cold prairies. I'll bet you could get a traditional Ukrainian costume, dance it up and before long some nice girl will be feeding you pierogies.

Dale I’m sure that’s true but you’re bringing more to the party than is required. Show up in a plain solid color flannel button-down from Tractor Supply and before the month is out some nice girl will have you shirtless in a corner while her mother “puts a few stitches of color” on the collar. And then when they have you over for Christmas eve dinner the embroidered shirt is the “you really need this for class, and I made all my nieces work on the stitching, it’s not really the 60 hours of hand work it looks like because it actually is” Christmas gift.

Dale Hodgins wrote:You're a sick man J. But each to his own when it comes to food.

Why would you say that?

Some of those foods sounded like things my mother would make. Perhaps I should have said different or unusual.

Women like it if a man can cook. You may recall that I have been living at my job sites. This was true several years ago during what I like to call, my man slut stage. I've never been shy about letting them know about these cooking skills.

As I stated earlier, living in the van or at the job is an almost certain deal-killer. Tell a woman that and she will usually drop you like a hot potato. But if you tell 10 women that same thing, there's a good chance that one of them might think you should have supper at her place instead. And since you're there already, it might be nice to watch a movie and see what happens.
😈😈😈

Dale Hodgins wrote:
But for the benefit of young fellows who need more game, let's hear from the ladies. Suppose a young fellow is posting himself on a dating site. Do you just want to see his smiling face? What if he's an athlete of some sort and he super ripped. Do you want to see that? I have always figured that if you have some advantage, it should be flaunted. Not necessary in an extreme way. But if that young fellow were competing with guys whose idea of exercise is Xbox and Coca-Cola, I don't think a few Beefcake photos would hurt him at all.

My daughter's weighed in on this. They said that if a guy looks reasonably fit, that's good. But if he's got muscles that come up to touch his ears and his thighs rub together, that's bad. Not so much that they don't like the look as much as they assume that he's a gym rat who is in love with the mirror. When I first started exercising a couple months ago, I was doing it in 3 hours a week. Now that I've split up some of the workouts, I might be up to four and a half hours a week and I don't expect to increase that. To me, that's not a gym rat. I won't be taking any roids and I don't expect to continue until I sound like a kid in a snowsuit because my thighs rub together.

Let's hear it ladies. And let's break it down according to age. If a guy is 25 and he post some photos showing that he's in good shape, is that a negative?

Now suppose that he's 54 like I am, where much of the competition are flabby guys with man boobs. If I were still looking, would it work to my advantage, to display the results of my efforts, if I gave a little blurb explaining just how much time I put into it.

I have been having hard time reading through this thread, I want to comment on close to every post! This one I couldn't pass by though... Not done reading the whole thread, so I may be repeating what others have already come up with. Apologies :)
Augh! My computer ate this, had to write it again...

When I see those pictures I see:
1. A man who is willing to put solid work into achieving his goals.
2. A man who is taking care of his body.
Very positive!
But I also possibly see:
3. A gym rat obsessed with appearances
4. A man trying to impress other guys
5. A guy with no clue what attracts women.
Which are negative.

Being as I have read a lot of Dale's stuff, I realize he's not #s 3-5. The question was if it was a random guy on the net, showing pictures, what would women think?

I was a deep tissue massage therapist for 10 years, I have had my hands on a LOT of people, there's a lot of data points behind my opinions here. I have had the gym rats on my table, and talked to them. Those bulky muscles are masses of scar tissue. When they quit exercising and the muscle loses tone, it all sags. The gym rats tend to be into their own appearance, and the appearance of their women. When the women age, and start to sag, they get tossed aside. When those men age and sag, it's not a good look. In general, that would be a red flag for me if I were a young girl looking for a guy and seeing a 20 something with muscled up pics on the net.

What IS a good look is a guy who does strength AND flexibility exercises. Those guys are strong, bendable, and the muscle is actually only muscle, not scar tissue. Their strength and tone will last their lifetime. My Tae Kwon Do teacher was only about 5 foot 8, and weighed maybe 160 pounds, and was one of the best bodies I have ever had on my table. He drove the big guys nuts. He could lift more than them, jump WAY higher than them (even though they were taller) and bend like a pretzel, as well as wipe the floor with them sparring. He will never sag, there is no scarring in him. The other best male bodies I have had did similar things: strength and flexibility exercises. The gym machines do no flexion, the movements are repetitive and build up scarring on the muscle fibers. Stretching REALLY well works out the damage, leaving only strong, healthy muscles.

It is possible I am not the target market, but bulky muscles look to me like a man is trying to impress or intimidate other guys. Aside from the .. not sure what to call them, what's the gym rat equivalent of tire biter? (I LOVE that word!) whatever they are, the groupie type of women who chase after body builders, aside from them, most women don't seem to find more than some muscles appealing. I have listened to a LOT of women talk, I have never heard one say "that man is so muscled, what a great catch!" I HAVE heard them say "that man is so sweet!" and "This is a man I'll be happy with the rest of my life!" but I have never heard muscles being an important thing to them. I have heard guys think it is to women, but not women who do.

What attracts women is a man who is kind, who puts effort into making her happy, by learning what SHE likes (not what "all  women" like) and making it happen for her. I'm a permie type, a guy who stops by the grocery store and grabs a bouquet of flowers to bring me scores half credit. He tried, since he knows I like flowers. But stop by Lowes and grab me a bare root rose, now THAT impresses me. Because it means you KNOW what I like. (And bonus points if you grab a shovel and ask me where I'd like it!!) One of the best gifts I ever got was a guy who worked with me, he took a lightweight hammer head and put it on a small diameter, longer than normal handle for  me. He KNEW what I would find useful. He had seen me fight with getting both enough leverage and enough control at the same time to drive nails. He paid attention. What I want isn't what other women want, every one is different (all humans are different, this applies to if you are after a guy too!) A guy who pays attention and uses the information well is never going to lack for women.

There is a famous saying "Men give love to get sex, and women give sex to get love." It's pretty accurate, there was a study done years ago (I learned of it in college in the early 80's, so before then.) Would you accept a marriage where there was no sex, all the love, affection, caring, kids, etc everything else you want, but no sex, for the rest of your life? Over 90% of males said no. Around 85% of women said yes. That's a deep thought to consider. Are you offering her what she wants? Or what you want? or what you think a lady should want? I have heard women complain "He works all day, we have sex, he goes to sleep. He never talks to me, never listens." The guy thinks he's providing for her, and satisfying her in bed, that's enough. She doesn't think so. He isn't filling her needs, he's filling what he thinks she should want.

So my opinion on pictures like Dale's is I'd look a bit closer, see where a guy might be on the rest of it, because it shows both positive and possibly negative qualities.

Dale Hodgins wrote:So I'll start the list off.

Clubs of all sorts. Women like to join clubs. I've never been a joiner. I joined this site in 2011 and I don't think I've joined anything since. But some of you are probably joiners.

Sports. Some women like to play sports and some like to watch. If you choose UFC fighting, the pool of women is going to be small. Develop a taste for figure skating or synchronized swimming, and the pool is as large as the one they're swimming in.

There are sports like baseball, which have male and female players on the same team. I'm sure these could be good. The only issue I have with them is that they often turn into drinking clubs.

Church, mosque, synagogue and devil worshipping caves. All great places to meet like-minded women. Maybe not mosques, I think they separate them, but I could be wrong.

Thrift stores. Women love to sort through stuff and they like to chat while they do it. All you have to do is come out of the changing room and ask whether this shirt looks good on you. You're going to get numerous opinions offered.

Bars and nightclubs. Most people will be familiar. I have never drank alcohol, so I haven't spent huge amounts of time in those places. But there was a time when I would go only to places that had open mic night, and I would get up and sing. That's a highly effective way to meet women. I sometimes tailored my song list to fit a woman in the audience.

You don't have to be able to sing. There are poetry slams and creative writing get-togethers where you hop on stage and deliver your stuff and lots more things like that. Once you come down off of that stage, any woman who is interested in you, has a good excuse to strike up a conversation. She may tell you that that was a wonderful song or a very interesting poem, and that might be all that it means. But it could just as easily mean that she's interested in you.

Oh man, there's this guy who's always at the thrift store when I go. He has this awesome scraggly beard and I totally think he's hot, but I'll never introduce myself to him in like 5 million years cause I don't talk to strangers.
Also to chime in with the PerMacGuyver defense squad, during my hobo adventures when I was in Victoria there were a couple of lovely food forest parks which helped feed me, which I can't help but suspect Dale was a part of constructing and maintaining. Way to (presumably) help the hobos, Dale!

I did help with the construction of one of them. And now I am one of the regular consumers of stuff that just is allowed to fall onto the ground. So much of it never gets harvested. The one I helped with was meant to be a hugelulture orchard. I'm pretty sure that I have the largest of those mounds on Vancouver Island, having built them with an excavator. The guy in charge wasn't willing to take input from anyone. They use a very sparse amount of wood in those mounds.

There's sure been a lot of talk about the pictures. I didn't actually post any of that type of pictures in my personal ad that was highly successful. But I was interested in what women would think of it. And it seems pretty clear that women would prefer that men do useful things with their muscles and not show off like a peacock.

I guess that's good to know. But, I know from experience that if you're already chatting with a woman and ask her if she'd like to see something like that, some of them would, but they don't want you putting it out on the internet. It's meant to be private. I had a woman send me a very sexy dance video, that was done in her living room. She said, I made a little video for you. So naturally, I assumed that this was a private thing. I even told her that I wouldn't show it around to friends. Months later, I found it on her Instagram, posted for all of the world to see. The same was done with other Productions like this. In one of them she says, hello Dale , I have something for you and then the sexy dancing begins. So you can imagine my shock, when I found out that it was out there for public consumption.

Many of her friends had commented on it, and on how lucky I was. Not one of them said, this isn't a good idea. She is from a culture that doesn't see that as a bad idea. This happened in Kenya. At one point we were going to go out for dinner and she had put on something that look like it was just painted on, it was that form fitting. I was about to suggest a change of attire, when her hyper-religious aunt walked into the room and complimented her on how lovely she looked. These folks are pumping the same religion that my ultra-conservative mother is pumping, but somehow the whole modesty thing hasn't caught on there.

I have talked to guys in thrift stores, sometimes it's fun, sometimes I get looked at weird. Part of it is how I (and other women) shop as a sport, and most of the guys are just grabbing anything that fits and getting out. I'm into having fun with it, and guys who will play are always good. I tend to ask guys shopping at Habitat for Humanity or thrift stores "Any idea what this is?" I get into some fun conversations. Old tools and older guys is always fun. So if you are young man  wondering what to say to women try "What is this thing?" if it's something she might know (and no telling what she might know!) I have discussed that sort of thing at grocery stores in the produce area too, what IS this vegetable and how do you prepare it? (I'm the one answering the question, I cook and am obviously buying the things.) It's a great line for a guy to use, gives a lady the chance to say as much or little as she wants. If she doesn't say much, turn to the next lady and say "fennel, huh? I still don't know what to do with it, any idea?"

I have often thought the hardware store needs to do "singles night" come in, get what you need for your projects, and chat up the others. I don't do bars. I do hardware stores.

Dale's comments back there about talk to the grandmas and moms is wise, as is chatting with random women. My best friend married a guy I talked to, I told her "He isn't mine, but you might want to talk to him." Random women are also good practice. If you can say ask a random lady what kind of dog she has, it gets much easier to talk to one you are interested in. Something about some quiet guys I have noticed is they get no practice on anyone, then are surprised when the girl they are attracted to leaves them tongue tied. Talk to strangers, it's great practice.