How to meet girls. Things every young guy should know.

I was waiting for a flight to Kenya, at the Frankfurt Airport, when two young Kenyan guys were both walking around looking for somewhere to plug in. But it turned out that neither had a suitable plug for the electricity available in Germany. I had brought a fully charged power bank with two charge ports.

 So,  I let them plug in and we chatted about many things. It turns out that the one young fellow was deathly afraid of striking up conversations with girls. He was short and rather funny looking. I asked if he had any tricks up his sleeve, and after talking for a few minutes, I believe he has no game whatsoever. None.

So, I asked the fellows why we were all sitting together. "Because we're chatting." Yes, but the availability of electricity brought us together.

 "Get yourself a power bank and girls will sit beside you at restaurants and bus stops, for half an hour or more. Beyond that, I can't help you."

The better looking fellow sprung to his feet and proclaimed, "You have changed my life. I'm getting a power bank."

Then I asked them to consider other simple ways that they could be of service, and meet girls in the process. I told them how I always used to carry a short extension cord with 5 outlets, when visiting coffee shops in Canada. It's hot in Kenya and people are often stuck waiting for transportation in difficult places. I asked them what would happen if they always had a little bag of fruit and some water with them. "We could share it", my pupil responded. Yes, you could, and not just with young girls. Old ladies have daughters and granddaughters. Offer your seat on the bus to the old lady, and the granddaughter with her will definitely notice. They looked at me like they were talking to Hugh Hefner. Such an amazing ideas.

I have no doubt but the young fellow who already had some game, has added some of this to his repertoire.

Does anyone else have ideas to help a fellow out. I've always found that sitting in a prominent place, looking handsome, can work. But what about those who need some help. Does anyone have some tips for them.

One of the big lessons on dating I picked up from my mom (who's outlived two happy marriages) was to pay attention to how a man treated everyone else, not just that girl he has his eye on. I've never regretted any man I've dated.  I think that is spot on advice to extend a helpful attitude beyond the pretty girls.

I witnessed some really poor behavior from many of the young men in Kenya. Some would ride by on a bike or motorcycle and hoot at the girls or yell something inappropriate. That was meant to entertain male friends that were with them. I didn't see anybody do it when he was on his own. This was certainly not the norm, but it happened often enough that I realized it was definitely a thing. A guy might get away with that in Nairobi, but many of them lived in small towns, where he would develop a reputation as that kind of guy. The girls had derogatory names for them that far exceed the publishing standards of this site.

My driver, Caleb, was always a gentleman. When he witnessed this behavior he said, "he is never going to find a good wife."  He certainly won't find one who has seen him doing that.

Casie Becker wrote:One of the big lessons on dating I picked up from my mom (who's outlived two happy marriages) was to pay attention to how a man treated everyone else, not just that girl he has his eye on. I've never regretted any man I've dated.  I think that is spot on advice to extend a helpful attitude beyond the pretty girls.

I agree that helpful behavior is an important attribute in a prospective date (or mate) but it is even more important that it be REAL and not simply an assumed behavior for the purpose of attracting someone. If it is only one of a bagful of "tricks", then it is worse than useless because it is not only false advertisement but potentially damaging to any future relationship. Anyone here aged enough to remember the Eddie Haskell character on the old "Leave It To Beaver" show will appreciate what a fake personality can do for (and against) everyone involved with that person.

My advice to anyone looking for a long-term relationship is to be yourself. If that includes being thoughtful, helpful and generally nice, so much the better. If it doesn't, maybe working on yourself for a while first might be the answer.

I am extremely outspoken. I found it's not a good idea to pretend that I'm not, because it's going to come out. This can make you friends and enemies. There are those who appreciate someone who has well-thought-out opinions, and there are those who decide that it's arrogance.

I've always had a simple rule that I will not buy alcohol for a woman. Dating sites are filled with women who would like you to take them out drinking. When it's clearly stated that you don't use the stuff and don't buy it for others, that only eliminates those who are not compatible, and at the same time sends a very positive message to like-minded women.

Do things you love and do them well, and you will find yourself around people who you will enjoy being with and who appreciate you. If you have committed yourself to treating others well and giving more than you take, your presence will be seen as a positive by others if they are someone you want to be around.

I don't think my story is really something to for anyone copy. I met my wife while thru-hiking the Pacific Crest Trail, not exactly a place one would think to meet women (it seemed about 10% of the hikers were women in my year). If you like outdoorsy, tan, sveldt guys though, it's the place to be! But I think the underlying principle of doing something you love, doing it well, and helping others enjoy doing it too, will make you the most attractive version of yourself.

I have zero "game." I am very shy by nature and was terrified of girls growing up. I read "Our Bodies Ourselves" way too young (10), and this blew my mind. They could find their "goddess" by sitting down on a mirror and looking for it?!? Women were ineffably beautiful beings beyond my comprehension. I also think I rightly questioned what I, an adolescent boy, had to offer beyond a whole lot of pent up angst and energy.

It was amazing how things changed when I started doing something that felt like self-realization as a backcountry ranger/trailworker/restorationist. I was around women and people in general who I deeply respected, found beautiful in an aesthetic as well as Kantian sense, and who brought the best out of each other. This just naturally led to  more intimate relationships between everyone, platonic and otherwise. Also, while it's a B movie, The Tao of Steve did have a disturbingly accurate distillation of how to be more attractive: Be excellent, be desireless, and be gone. It worked for me, I don't think my wife would have gotten so hooked on the Ben stuff if I hadn't gotten about a hundred miles ahead shortly after we first met. It also helps to always be able to walk faster than her, so she can't get away:)

A point regarding being helpful/friendly and more importantly being sincere: I've heard guys complain about being "friend zoned", and complaining about not getting to bed with someone they spent a lot of effort "being a gentleman to". If your real intent is dating a woman, many will see through it and discount it as a front. I would also argue that nobody gets friend zoned, instead these people "girlfriend zone" or "boyfriend zone" people they are attracted to, and try to read more into a friendship than is actually there.

It's rather tough when you're younger to just be yourself and find happiness first, and have that calm happiness radiate out to attract others. With social media and phones/apps dehumanizing our social life even more these days it's even tougher.

Use a photo of a lamb...you think puppies are cute, lambs are ten times cuter.

When I set up my profile page on a dating site (Christian Mingle) I used a picture of me holding a newborn lamb. Katie later said it immediately caught her eye because it conveyed caring and cuteness. (We are celebrating 7 years of marriage next month!)

Write more than one or two lines when writing back,

I make fun of myself for writing paragraphs on here, but the truth is, most guys will just see a photo of a woman they think is interesting and type out. "What is up?" Katie later said that I was the first guy that typed back a paragraph or two...I had lambs and was interesting and could share.

Look outside your normal parameters.

The USDA actually matched me with Katie. This is how it worked out; my local USDA-NRCS Conservationist heard I got divorced and was going to set me up with her friend who was a Dr and who had sheep as a kid. Naturally I liked the sound of dating a Dr, so when she said she was going to New Hampshire for the weekend and would talk to her, I was happy. I kept thinking, this is perfect; new Hampshire is 4 hours away from Maine...just enough time to drop and and date her, but not be a daily kind of dating thing...PERFECT.

So when the conservationist came back, I told her this, and she was like, "oh no, she lives in Maryland, we just met at a friends house in new Hampshire for the weekend." At that I was thinking that was too far away, but when I was on Christian Mingle and did not see a good match I thought of my thoughts on New Hampshire, expanded it to New Hampshire and there was Katie.

Travis Johnson wrote:Write more than one or two lines when writing back,

I make fun of myself for writing paragraphs on here, but the truth is, most guys will just see a photo of a woman they think is interesting and type out. "What is up?" Katie later said that I was the first guy that typed back a paragraph or two...I had lambs and was interesting and could share.

Yes, this!!

I have lost count of the dating profiles I have see that say "um I'm not very good at talking about myself, if you want to know anything just ask".  For crying out loud give me something to go on!

Gee....what to say...I guess I am a good bad example, so I ought to stand up.

Not my proudest moment.

Like another author up there, I have no "Game." In fact, was unpopular with...well, out with it...just about everyone.

I have spent decades being jealous of people who get along with people, not just men who are good at attracting women (although they certainly are on that grudge list). I have an innate ability to arrive at the back door of life and be raked around by the security guards and go home with a black eye.

Most of my life, I've been able to really connect with about one human being (and I'm not talking men and women or sex here) once every couple of years. I have had a deep, sincere friendship with maybe three people my whole life. I think, I'm sure it's different for everyone, but for me, a romantic relationship *SHOULD* evolve out of a good friendship.

I look back at the five or six women (and three men) I have had intercourse with in my forty years, and must admit that they were almost entirely based on impulse. I did not follow the advice I am giving you now.

I don't remember who said it, but I remember hearing: there are people who knock on the door that you won't even open the door for. Then, there are people who knock on the door, and you will open the door but stand there to see what they have to say. Then there are people you will let in to the entryway, but no further. Then there are people you will let into your living room and drink coffee with. And there are still other people who are welcome all the way to your bedroom-- and it pays to know which is which.

But I have three children--so something must work.

My first marriage ended with me running away, because there was no affection--it had become a business. My second relationship, which produced my third child, is sick and weird, I'm sorry to say. We stay together out of obligation to the baby, while we have pretty much no affection for each other. It's not a romantic relationship in any way, and it would have obliterated three years ago if it weren't for the existence of our son.

She does not like farming, or land, or animals or plants, or being outside--not in any weather. I do not like consumerism, cell phones or television. But I did not have enough sense to make these decisions back then: I chose the sex. It was an easy choice.  While I regret the state of my relationship, and ever unsure if it will come crashing down today, or tomorrow, or what--I love my children so much.

I want to give them the best experience in life that I can--and that means sacrificing my own romantic love. In the end, I got much the same situation that I ran from in my first one. But I stay the course because it's the right thing to do.

Bill Mollison on family, cited the I-Ching (I don't know how: what I have read from it seems utterly vague, shapeless and malleable), "The family is society in embryo."

I am a product of divorced parents. I worry terribly that my first two children will surely follow my example, which I have identified for them as normal with my actions. I am trying not to let this be true for my baby son as well.

But you are young!

If I were twenty again and starting over, here is what I would say:

It is not necessary that you SHARE preferences or attributes (though it often helps), but it is absolutely imperative that you each can value and respect the other's thoughts, choices, and preferences. (BEFORE you jump in the sack.)

You don't have to be Shinto like your girlfriend, but it has to fasincate you that she is--enough to help her do this forever. If kneeling in front of the Shinto shrine gives you the creeps, then this is probably not for you. She doesn't have to kill the farm ducks to pay the mortgage like you do, but it has to fascinate her that you do--enough to help you do this forever. If she cannot imagine handling a dead animal, and shudders at the sight of animal poop on the ground, then this is probably not for her.

This is what those cheesy love song lyrics about "believing in each other" mean.

I'm sorry to be a downer, but this is what I have to give. It will probably not be a suitable tool for dragging hot chicks to bed.

Michael Sohocki wrote:
But I have three children--so something must work.

My first marriage ended with me running away, because there was no affection--it had become a business. My second relationship, which produced my third child, is sick and weird, I'm sorry to say. We stay together out of obligation to the baby, while we have pretty much no affection for each other. It's not a romantic relationship in any way, and it would have obliterated three years ago if it weren't for the existence of our son.

She does not like farming, or land, or animals or plants, or being outside--not in any weather. I do not like consumerism, cell phones or television. But I did not have enough sense to make these decisions back then: I chose the sex. It was an easy choice.  While I regret the state of my relationship, and ever unsure if it will come crashing down today, or tomorrow, or what--I love my children so much.

I want to give them the best experience in life that I can--and that means sacrificing my own romantic love. In the end, I got much the same situation that I ran from in my first one. But I stay the course because it's the right thing to do.

I am a product of divorced parents. I worry terribly that my first two children will surely follow my example, which I have identified for them as normal with my actions. I am trying not to let this be true for my baby son as well.

I have to disagree with you - with love and sympathy.  I don't believe it is necessary, or a good example for kids, for two people to sacrifice their own happiness in order to preserve the institution of marriage as the only model of "family".  It is not an easy "opt-out" getting divorced, it is not "quitting" to leave a relationship which is toxic for all concerned.  I am divorced from the father of my two kids.  They see him regularly and could see him far more often as far as I'm concerned, if he had the time.  He and I made each other miserable.  Now we are civil and respectful to each other and both pursuing lives and principles which we believe in.  I believe this is a good example to set my kids.  Your kids can learn from your mistakes, if they are honestly portrayed as mistakes.

This has certainly gone off the rails. Divorces, children ...
Does anybody have any good pick-up lines.

Here's one. I used to carve wooden bowls on the beach and I used to manufacture driftwood furniture. A couple times when asked if I would be there the next day, I said that depends on how late me and you are out tonight. :-) I thought it was pretty smooth and it resulted in a few dates. I still had to do the work, but the fact that I was in a public space, doing something useful, with my shirt off, was a great ice-breaker. Men like to just sit and admire women. I think most women have to be talking about something or they feel uncomfortable doing that. :-)

Here's another. On several occasions, a nice lady has stopped to chat at my demolition sales and eventually it became evident that she was not there to buy anything. One lady asked what's the next step. She meant, what part of the building am I going to tear off next. My reply was, I suppose we should go out for dinner or something. If she's at all interested, a smooth transition like that can be very useful. Even if it turns out she's married with 11 kids, this sort of innocent flirt won't bother most ladies at all. Something for her to tell the other moms about.

I remember one time, when I was asked what the next step was, I said it's probably a little too soon for us to get married, so we should probably go on a date first. Boom !  I haven't told my girlfriend about this thread. Nothing wrong with a little innocent reminiscing.

Dale Hodgins wrote:This has certainly gone off the rails. Divorces, children ...
Does anybody have any good pick-up lines.

I think it did because otherwise the topic at hand is a little shallow, and most Permies that I know, actually have deep convictions on ethics, so they are anything but that.

I do not have any real good pick up lines because I have never been trying to pick any women up. I have heard of guys telling a woman they are pretty, but it seems for a woman that is more flattery than truth. I have always told my wife she "is beautiful". There is a huge difference between a woman that is pretty and one that is beautiful though. "Pretty" is on the outside, and "Beautiful" is on the inside.

I have no idea if Katie is pretty or not, to me she is, but I admit I am biased. If my eyes are clouded over and she is ugly as sin, do not tell me because...to me, she is beautiful.

Sadly they say 600 times a day my wife and (5) daughters (and every woman in the free world) is subjected to 600 images per day of what the world feels they should look like. Thankfully they say a husband and Father has a lot of influence upon a wife and daughters, and so I have made it my personal mission to make sure they feel beautiful despite what the world might say. It cannot be done with flattery and lines, it has to be genuine, but its worth doing. Their self-worth is at stake.

Me and Katie:

When I was young and inexperienced I thought that having some pickup line or gimmic could work.  Eventually I found the method that worked best for me is to simply start an innocuous conversation.  

I eventually figured out that women are just people (people I tended to be intensely attracted too), who were sometimes attracted to me.  

The suggestion of having a charger is brilliant.  Some gals will probably plug in and try to avoid conversation, that's ok, some will be interested.

If your doing something that can legitimately be a cause for starting a conversation, an interested woman may well talk to you.  I used to play guitar or carve wood and found both attracted attention.

One of my brothers was a little socially inept.  I watched how girls treated him.  I didn't ask out grls that were unkind to him.    
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If you a a kind, reasonably intelligent person who is interested in things, you have a good chance at a good relationship.  Who you are is going to leak out anyway, be honest and upfront, but be your best self.  One reason I wanted to marry my wife wife was she brought out my best.  Every person has different sides of your personality and different people bring out different sides.

My sister used to bemoan her difficulty finding a decent guy.  I'ld ask her where she was meeting guys, it was always pick up bars.  If you fish in a lake full of carp, don't gripe if you catch carp.  (Incidentally, I like carp, if the waters clean).

Like the gentleman who met his wife on the coastal trail, do your thing and the people you meet are more likely to be compatible.

Looks matter less as time goes on (thank heavens, because time has beat me up pretty badly), as you learn to know the person more, you see the inside more and the outside less.  You should like what you see, but be reasonable, even the movie stars only look like they do with lots of talented help and some creative photography.  Better to have a beat up old car that runs than shiny Mercedes with no engine.

I've been off the market for decades, but as far as the internet dating sites, be honest and upfront.  You may not get as much action, but you won't want most of those anyway.

I had a brother and son who went that route and they both  had some hillarious and horrific stories before each met his current wife (local, chance meeting).  I know it works for many, but you can't get personal chemistry.

Learn to pick up the signals. Many women will give signals, and many men will be oblivious. I've often said that my friend Cliff couldn't find a woman if she was sitting on his lap.

I was in the lineup buying some chocolate at London Drugs. The guy behind me noted that the lovely East Indian woman running the till kept looking past customers closer to her in the line and it appeared she was looking at me. We had had a pleasant interaction weeks ago. Nothing much. There's not much you can do while you're in the lineup and others are waiting behind. Neither of us were sure if this meant anything. But I was having a really good hair day and I've been hitting the weights. I told him we will know when I get my change. She's either going to drop it in my hand, or she's going to place it in my hand. She said hello, how has your day been. I said the sun shines a little brighter for anyone who meets you. Then I paid for my chocolate. She returned the change to my hand and dragged three fingers across the length of it before dropping the change. I'm not planning to do anything with that little tidbit of information right now, but I know where she works.

It is so much easier to date in Southeast Asia, than it is in the US (the west). Take the Philippines, for example.

Filipinas will happily communicate with you, with little initiation on your part. And, you can meet them everywhere, malls, shops, walking down the sidewalk. So, basically, no "pick up lines" are necessary. You just need to be there - you just need to show up, as it were.

Filipinas can be very devoted, loyal, and loving women.

Filipinas are brought up in a completely different culture from our own. (I am from the US; born and grew up in the South.) They are taught, more than we are it seems, about devotion to family. The traditional ones work very hard to maintain their relationships with their parents, husbands, children, siblings, etc.

Filipinos, as most Southeast Asians are, they do not throw their elderly into homes for the aged, either. Their parents stay with them until death.

Now, I reside in Cambodia, and have for going on 7 years. The previously listed reason is one of several, as to why I have lived in SEA, full time, for the past two decades. I have no intentions of living anywhere else, ever.

I wish a mature, sensible lady would make a thread like this for the women!
I'm having a hell of a time finding anybody online who doesn't give off a predatory vibe. As a woman, I find that pick up lines are a clear signal that I'm not being viewed as a fellow human, but rather as an antelope unto a lion. This obviously is uncomfortable and makes me want to stay away from that person. I'm never going to feel comfortable enough with a dude to be open to a relationship unless he can talk to me like I'm one of the dudes, minus the dirty jokes. Once we've established a basic human connection, the options open but as long as I'm treated as a distinct species I'm gonna make for the woods and hide from the menfolk. They're cannibals, I tell you. Cannibals.

I thought all the cannibals stayed south of the river, in Covington and Newport KY? (grew up in Cincinnati!) But yeah, the dating "game" has become a literal game to a lot of people, or people are just playing a numbers game - "if I hit on enough people, eventually one will say yes" mentality.

This is kind of bittersweet, Dale talking about "game". Probably like many, I had a rough adolescence. This made me question my worth and my value in any relationship. So I worked to develop my "game".

There were some bright spots (for Dale); back when we still wrote checks, I was out of state at college and there was a super beautiful checkout clerk taking my check. She said "I'm going to need a local number" and I came back immediately with "I was just going to say the same thing!" It worked, numberwise anyway. This was my game, I looked like a dumb jock but had a quick wit. It was a gimmick.

After a decade of very superficial relationships, I got totally smitten, and I had nothing but "game". I will spare the details but it was not that different from Dale's schtick. She went for the game but it took two years of my failing to learn that she liked the image, but she (and I) needed much more than that. I won the wrong prize. It took a total overhaul of our relationship over several years to recover. I am very grateful she invested in the relationship, and I am afraid there is so much conditioning on both sides at this point I worry for my kids. Women consume culture that  every day should be novel and romantic (and focused on them), and men are told women are just suppressed horny beasts who long to wash our socks (and focused on us). The reality is that unless both partners trade their prior selves for the interests of the other, any prior self that is maintained is not a gift from the other half- but a source of frustration/contention. And that is a big "ask".

What is funny is that the longer "leash" I have gotten, the fewer times I am that interested in using it!  

C.S. Lewis commented once (this would have been about 80 or more years ago), that when he was young, the liberals were saying "why can't we treat sex like our other appetites".  At the time he accepted that, but eventually realized what they really meant was "let's treat sex like no other appetite has ever been treated".  He commented it didn't seem to matter what shabby behavior was committed if the result was "four bare legs in bed".  Dishonorable behavior remains dishonorable.  If you would screw over a friend, whether for sex or any other reason and cause them heart ache and maybe long term damage, for a fleeting enjoyment for yourself, then I think anyone would agree that you are a sorry excuse for a human being.  The fact that we sometimes don't extend this basic understanding to sex is a failure in our society.  If you are married and you purposely engage in behavior that you know will cause great pain for the person who, hopefully, is your best friend, then there's something wrong with your head.

When I got married I got a real education about the female mind.  While I was focused on finding someone beautiful, sexy, loyal,funny, smart, and hard working in roughly that order and being all cool and suave (or so I thought) my wife was looking for someone with whom she could raise a family.  She was looking for someone who could make a living (could provide), reliable (would provide), someone who would be a good father for her future children, and then came funny, smart, sexy, and all the other cool stuff in roughly that order.  

I've read that world wide when they examine men and women, their focuses are roughly what my wife and I had.  The only areas this breaks down are areas where women are basically using the government to take the place of the husband as a provider, then they are focusing more on sexy, cool, etc.

Looking back over our life together, my wife had a better grounded view of what was important.  

The most important thing to realize is that you are marrying a partner, someone who will have your back, always.  Sex is great, but it's a wonderful thing to go to sleep at night next to someone you trust and love, and who trusts and loves you back.

As a man, if I had advice for a woman, it would be the same I gave my daughters.  No Free Samples!!!  Some will leave when they realize you aren't putting out.  Good riddance, you know what they were after and it wasn't a long term relationship!  Some won't leave.  Those may be the ones you might want to look at.

I heard on a website, some guy said that nothing is more valued in our society as a young woman.  He quoted his wife who said, as a woman, at 20 everyone wants you, at 30, you're on sale, at forty your bargain basement, and at 50 no one wants you.  That seems to me true overall and completely false on the individual level.  The same guy observed that men retain their value longer, but are seen as much more expendable.  As proof, who do we send into dangers way, whether it is a dangerous job or the battlefield.  Men, predominantly young men.

The answer is simple.  Show her your heart.  Many men have a hard time doing this due to thousands of years of social conditioning...and fear.  Show her the same passion you would express when your team scores the winning touchdown with 3 seconds left in the game.  

We are taught from a very young age that "manliness" is strong, rigid, and powerful, and to have no regards for our feelings, our emotions.  This causes a much firmer grip on the ego. Even for those who don't possess this kind of ego, they can sometimes still feel they should.  Putting the ego on display will never win her heart,  but you will be sure to gain many like minded buddies.

I am reminded of a quote from a well known "tough guy".
"Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves."  ~ Bruce Lee

When I started this thread I was in a reasonably happy although sometimes strained relationship. Eventually, everything unraveled due to power and control issues. Hers, not mine. It's unfortunate because she has many wonderful qualities.

The original idea behind this thread was how to help fellows make initial contact. Some people, like the young Kenyan man needed this sort of help.

Having a few good lines, does not mean that you have to be looking for something superficial. And they don't have to be lines. It's possible to be witty and entertaining, but to speak only the truth.
........
After licking my wounds for a few days,  after the breakup, I decided to put myself out there again.

I decided on a respectable dating site based in the Philippines. There were many pragmatic reasons why I chose this route. Number one, would have to be that this place is quite unique in just how limited the pool of available men is. Drinking, gambling, drugs and the pursuit of whores has seriously diminished the pool of men that decent, intelligent women would consider husband material. Many potential mates leave for the oil fields or cruise ships and they never come back. There are more gay men than gay women in that society.
Many people live on small islands where a good number of the people they know are their relatives.

All of this tilts the playing field strongly in favor of any sober and productive man. Middle-aged foreign men are considered a prize. And I've seen many of these men. I checked out some of the profiles and thought to myself, if I ever allowed myself to get into that sort of pathetic physical shape, I'd slit my throat. Yet many of these guys have done all right.

And I know from personal experience with several guys I know here in Victoria, that men who don't really have it together enough to consider getting married, often find themselves on these dating sites. I know three of them here. All guys who squandered their resources and health in various ways. And all of them did quite well considering their impediments. It's a shame how two of those women settled for so little.

So, considering all this, I decided this would be an excellent venue for me. I wrote out a profile that was completely honest about my intent and what I have to offer. I set my searches to eliminate those who I would not be interested in. That's not something I do in real life. I will happily talk to old and young, short and tall, fat and skinny and those who have many children. But that doesn't mean that I would be interested in all of them.

So, I really narrowed my search by choosing an age range considerably lower than my own and by clearly stating that I am an atheist. Catholicism is the norm in the Philippines, although there are other Christian denominations and there are Muslims. I also chose only those who do not have children. I think it's important to have a good talk with yourself before doing this. There would be no point in me attracting middle-aged women with children, when I don't see any chance of going in that direction.

So I made the profile, I paid a very small amount of money and joined. I was flooded with hundreds of messages. Many were sort of a cut-and-paste thing that I suspect they are sending too many people. You are so handsome or I found your profile very interesting, came up so often that I'm assuming they know what works on simple-minded men.     But,  there were also many sincere messages of interest and well written messages.

I went through hundreds of profiles and also sent a few dozen messages of interest.

The Cascade of messages consumed a lot of my time for a few days. Most of them tried to move me quickly to email, Skype or Whatsapp. That's because they know that men can become very distracted by all of the pretty faces that are constantly visible on the website. I was involved in a pleasant exchange with one woman, and about 7 messages telling me that I was someone's favorite, interrupted our discussion as the photo came into view on my screen.

Like I said, it's really slanted in favor of the men.

But when I looked at these many messages and the profiles associated, it was clear to me that many had not really read what I had to say. Women who describe themselves as very devout Catholics who would only be interested in another Catholic, where amongst those who showed interest. There were also many that went well beyond the age parameter I had set. There were probably 200 children if you added them all up.

But still,  after all of that initial sorting, there were still probably 40 young women who matched most of what I was looking for and when I looked into their profiles, I matched what they were looking for. It's quite a daunting task, when you consider the gravity of the situation, since I'm looking for a lifelong partner.

I buckled down and started cranking out one message after another. I often had to go back and read previous messages, to make sure that I wasn't talking to a girl about something that some other girl had said. This must be what it's like for serial philanderers. Trying to keep track of a dozen conversations at once. It was quite a process. I was very careful to not make any promises or to agree to any sort of exclusivity.

Now I have narrowed it down to one, and I have covered up my profile picture and changed my message to reflect that.
.......
This type of dating didn't require me to have any game. At least not in the beginning. But it is important to communicate well. One of the first things we dealt with was Catholicism. I asked if she actually believe that Eve talked to a snake or the Red Sea was parted. She said, I'm an educated woman, of course I don't believe those things. But she also said that she would never tell older members of the family, and that if I meet them I shouldn't. I can do that.

So it's early days for me again. I've always had a fairly simple strategy, attract them in any way I can and then overwhelm them with my brilliance. I am either quickly labeled as a very cocky know-it-all or as potential husband material. Also a sorting mechanism.

There is no Horror Story you could tell me that would sway me from My Chosen Route. These things sometimes go awry. But so do about half of North American marriages, so there you go.

Fingers crossed.

Oh, My Goddess! Why am I chiming in here? Well, I haven't been kicked off permies... Yet. They seem to like me for some reason.

It took me far too long to learn this. I wish I could go back and tell this to the awkward young man that I was.

"Take ALL the advice women tell you they want in a man... and pretty much, do the complete opposite." No, really. I expect pushback... but the dating game is very counter intuitive.

To nip the wide eyed girls in the butt right from the start, men don't' chose women, no matter how hard you try. Women choose their men. You really have nothing to say in the matter other than, "Nope. I'll Wait".

You just need to change yourself into the man that women notice and start deciding on.

Here is the quickest shortcut... and one of the best pieces of advice I ever got. "Don't be Luke Skywalker. Be Han Solo". I went against all my self identifying mythology. I was Luke fucking Skywalker. Challenger of the Dark Side. I even learned to use a samurai sword. This gets no woman frothy.

I mentioned this to MrsC5 recently. She replied, "There was nothing sexy about Luke Skywalker. (ewwe. Like kissing your brother) But Han Solo was hot. There is something about bad boys".

Wait for it. Wait for it. I can hear the gasps. I'm just getting started.

After several failed attempts at online dating exposing my sensitive side... I made the decision to go full counter intuitive. What did I have to lose?

I hear this was an epic post. I went full, shock and awe.

I wrote, "Women are nothing but trouble. Other than the sex, there is no advantage to a man in being with a woman. Unfortunately life is far too boring without all that trouble.

It's basic caveman. I brought you this dead animal that tried to kill me an hour ago. This gives value to being a man.

Then you'll complain that it's icky and want to go out for dinner...All the wile fantasizing about the other caveman that killed a bigger animal...and treats you badly.

It's enough to make a caveman scream.

So, why do we bother? You'ld think there would be alot more gay cavemen. I suppose its because it's impossible to get motivated to face a big animal that is trying to kill you, armed only with a pointy stick, without a damned good reason.

I recently gave up on 30 years as a hard core feminist when i suddenly realized I had never actually met an equal.  

OK. Enough about you. lets talk about me for a wile....".

And this is how I ended up with MrsC5...

...By the way, She is a PHD, sociology professor, specializing in racism and women's studies, and prominent social activist.

She says, I am the only man she has been with that she can not dominate. Most days, she still tries to kick me in the nuts. Now that I understand what is going on, I kick her in the nuts, right back. It's nice to be needed.

I wish I could go back and tell all this to teenage me. I should also point out that it keeps MrsC5 honest because she knows all her female friends consider me "Charming".


Well, let the chaos responses begin..... 300 pound guerilla in the room. Try to ignore me. I'm just trying to make it to the snack bar...

Now that I have narrowed it down, my job isn't done. That's because women are suspicious creatures, and for good reason. And some women are so reserved, that it's hard to get them to open up. I found it with several of them, they were going to say whatever you think. What sort of house would you like to have? whatever you think. What sort of job would you like to have,? whichever one you think I should have. It can be quite maddening. But I refused to play that game, and insisted on real answers. I did not give any prompting. When it is done this way, you can learn quite a bit about someone's values.

Some go almost to the point of begging you to get them out of there. There was a very nice but weird woman who used her camera to show me the neighborhood beyond her window. An endless carpet of metal roofs in a giant slum. She continued to attempt contact, long after I made it clear that I was exclusive with someone else.

Many of these women are smart and they ask questions and don't just wait to be picked by someone. I wouldn't be interested in the ones who are just willing to run off with the first guy willing to get them out of the slum.

The most consistent concern they seem to have is philandering. Their biggest fear is that they would marry somebody and in a few years he would ditch them or he would have several others going on the side at the same time. They all have friends who have had this happen to them. Some were foreign men but most were Filipino men. This is sort of behavior actually benefits those of us who aren't looking to head down that road. But it does require some salesmanship.

After several days of only talking to my new girlfriend, I decided to go back to the website to cover up my photos and to make a new heading. I said I'm taking myself off the market because I've entered a very promising relationship with a woman named ------. I used her name for a very good reason. Some fellows will tell half a dozen girls that they are exclusive and they will change their profile just say so. So half a dozen girls think that they are the person mentioned when he says I'm exclusive with one girl now. So I did this and I took screenshots of it all, because I wanted to convince her that I've stopped looking. While I was at the website, I noticed that she had been there a short time before. I questioned her about whether she was still taking messages. In fact she had already covered her photo and erased all other contacts. Then she admitted that she was coming back at least every hour to see if I had been on the website. She had done this every waking hour of every day since we first met. So I showed her the screenshots and this helped a bit with the suspicion. There were also screenshots of many unopened messages. It changes color if it's opened.

But she went looking at the profiles of all of these girls, and judged many of them to be more beautiful than herself and to be more suitable for me in other ways. So I explained my process and that at the end of it, I judged her to be the best choice for me. She doesn't quite fit the look of the Spanish looking women on TV who use skin bleach. The country is a genetic stew of people with Malay, Chinese, Spanish and Austronesian ancestry. To me she's a beautiful woman, but to her, she looks like a maid, because of a flattish nose, wavy hair and pronounced epicanthic folds in her eyelids. I'm guessing she's a mixture of mostly Malay with some Austronesian ancestry. I explained to her that native peoples all over the world have had standards of beauty imposed on them, so that people don't even think their own children are beautiful. I told her that my mind wasn't poisoned in that way and that I think she's very beautiful. She's also smart. She has a bachelor's degree in IT Communications and she doesn't buy into the religious nonsense she was raised with. All good as far as I'm concerned. Her original profile picture was taken in bright light with a bright white background, so that it washed out her skin and features. I asked her to take some photos in regular lighting, and told her that they were really nice. After a few weeks, she believes me. She also told me that at 5 feet tall and 95 lb, she is too small. She's perfectly proportion for a woman that size and it's not a concern to me. I'm 5 feet 9 and 201 pounds. She thinks that I'm far too handsome for her. I sent her some of my bodybuilding photos,  and she really likes them, but wanted to make sure that those weren't posted for other women to drool over. She asked if I would be able to pick her up, and I said yes, with one hand. This seems to be the one thing that she found very positive. Several times, she has told me that I'm so handsome that I can get a better one. Meaning better than her. I hope we can get past that.

That has to be one of the strangest things I've ever done, trying to get a beautiful woman to believe that I find her attractive. I'm twice her age. Old guys like sexy chicks. This isn't something white people have done. The Filipinos were keeping certain upper class women out of the Sun and looking extremely pale, long before the Spanish arrived. This pale look was only achievable by the upper class, who didn't need their daughters to help in the fields.

We have talked about a million things and she's quite bright. She is totally open to moving to Canada. But every few days, she starts to worry again, that I might be looking for one of those bleach face women that I told her I have no attraction to. It's just nuts, but it's what she was raised with. There are millions of women around the world who buy into this. In Ghana about 80% of women bleach their skin.

I am convinced that if we can get past her insecurities, we could have a wonderful life together.

And there's just one more thing that's a bit weird. She was running out of data and told me that we would be out of communication for several days. The cost of data is something that I earn in 5 minutes at work. But she absolutely refused to let me pay for it and instead waited until her pay came in. The rationale is that she is not going to be one of those bought women. We talked about me come in there. I would stay in her parents home. So I asked what sort of gift I should bring and apparently there's not much I could bring that wouldn't appear that I am trying to buy their daughter. So I questioned her concerning what would be allowed if we were married. Would I be allowed to build them a typhoon shelter, from concrete or compressed Earth blocks? Not right away, because then it might appear but she had gotten married, in order to get her parents a new house. Nuts. They live in a beautiful spot and produced everything that a person could want on a mixed Farm that includes little rice patties and fish ponds surrounded by High Ground that grows every tropical thing. Looking at the home and land, they don't look poor to me. But none of what they have has much cash value and it's important for foreigners to not flaunt their wealth. For $10,000, I could buy a nice little farm and build a house on it, so that we would have a nice place to stay when visiting in November, December and January. I asked if it would be okay to buy something like that and then allow her father and brothers to farm the extra land, since we would only need the home site. She agreed to that, but only because good land should not be wasted. Her father and mother raised 8 children and sacrificed to educate only two of them. My girlfriend and her younger sister. She pays the taxes on their land which is actually a government lease. For a relatively small amount, I could pay it off and they would have a title deed, but this would have to wait until she has been working with me in Canada, long enough that it wouldn't be considered an inducement for her to marry me, by the community.

Time will tell. I don't see any reason why this couldn't work, except for the mix of jealousy and self-esteem issues. She is honest, hardworking and intelligent. And she's completely enamored with everything about me. So I think she's great, she thinks I'm great, and our only issue is that she's not so sure that she is as good as I think she is. Nuts

I think I've gone far beyond my original plan to help a fellow out if he has no game. :-)

Edit

I posted without taking it into consideration, our female readers. These are the photos that have caused some of the trouble. Apparently every female from 9 to 90 in the Philippines would find them much too attractive, and therefore they needed to be hidden. I'm not done yet, I still need to take off 10 or 15 pounds of fat and replace it with 10 or 15 pounds of muscle. At 54 years old, I am more muscular than when I was 25. I started this transformation 2 months ago . For most women here that would not be a problem. They would show their friends and say look my boyfriend's looking pretty hot. But to my girlfriend in the Philippines, she thinks he's looking pretty hot, and that's a problem. Nuts.

When I first started this thread, I didn't think it would become a venue for displaying my progress in my exercise regimen. But boys will be boys. :-)

NOPE!

Too Far.

As an X Victoria BC guy trying to help a brother out... Delete those photos as quickly as possible. They would be very good if your intention was to attract other men that were really into men.

No problem with me if that is what you were working towards... but best to keep those guns subtle for those that wish to work for it.

Girls, help a brother out.

These are just mini guns right now. I'm planning to add several more slabs of beef. Now that I think of it, two of the most buff guys I know are a gay couple. If gay guys want to have a look, let em look.

I'm not looking to find a girl here. I have found one that I really like. I don't have any of those types of pictures posted in the Philippines. The only copies are on her tablet. She shares a room with her younger sister. She tells me that she looks at my pictures, under the covers, when her sister is asleep.

So you know I'm going to send her more pictures as I drop the fat and fill out those arms a bit. I don't have to volunteer them anymore, she asks me to take them. What's a brother to do. A beautiful woman half my age wants to see half naked pictures of me. There's no way I would deny such a request. :-)

After a couple of days talking to her, I asked if she would like to provide me with some sexy pictures. She told me that if I talked like that, she couldn't talk to me anymore. There was to be no mention of sex or anything of a physical nature. But I'm pretty smooth. Two days later she was sending me little essays, outlining her every desire. And I was in those essays.
.............
But for the benefit of young fellows who need more game, let's hear from the ladies. Suppose a young fellow is posting himself on a dating site. Do you just want to see his smiling face? What if he's an athlete of some sort and he super ripped. Do you want to see that? I have always figured that if you have some advantage, it should be flaunted. Not necessary in an extreme way. But if that young fellow were competing with guys whose idea of exercise is Xbox and Coca-Cola, I don't think a few Beefcake photos would hurt him at all.

My daughter's weighed in on this. They said that if a guy looks reasonably fit, that's good. But if he's got muscles that come up to touch his ears and his thighs rub together, that's bad. Not so much that they don't like the look as much as they assume that he's a gym rat who is in love with the mirror. When I first started exercising a couple months ago, I was doing it in 3 hours a week. Now that I've split up some of the workouts, I might be up to four and a half hours a week and I don't expect to increase that. To me, that's not a gym rat. I won't be taking any roids and I don't expect to continue until I sound like a kid in a snowsuit because my thighs rub together.

Let's hear it ladies. And let's break it down according to age. If a guy is 25 and he post some photos showing that he's in good shape, is that a negative?

Now suppose that he's 54 like I am, where much of the competition are flabby guys with man boobs. If I were still looking, would it work to my advantage, to display the results of my efforts, if I gave a little blurb explaining just how much time I put into it.

That could have come across across wrong... and the moment I pressed send, I knew it. I apologize. Big apology.

Some girls like to....i'm lacking words... be attached to a big guy. I'm a big guy myself.

But I have been with dozens of women and they have mentioned to me about subtlety. They are attracted to confidence.... but a bit different kind.

Hell, I walk around my farm, buck naked all the time...but only because its too hot

Let's wait to see if any women respond. Perhaps we are both wrong on this. I can only go by what has worked for me in the past. But I guess that wasn't posting Beefcake photos. I've just gone around being me. Some like that and some don't like it at all. C'est La Vie

I'm reminded of that Ricky Nelson song. You can't please everybody so you might as well please yourself. Of course if you find the right woman, you don't actually have to please yourself anymore! Boom! :-)

I'm not sure if Ricky realized that I might misinterpret his song in that way. Or maybe that's what he was secretly talking about, who knows?

Dale Hodgins wrote:Fingers crossed.

You sir, may have found one of the best women on the face of this planet. They are often liken to American women of the 50's and 60's.

Unsolicited advice from someone who lived in the Philippines for more than 11 years:

Never send money prior to meeting and "reading" the woman face to face. A good Filipina would never ask for money.

Never loan money to the family. If the family is no good, the requests will never end.

See if she can tell her family, "No." If she cannot, you are in for a not-so-comfortable ride. If she can, kudos to her.

When you are with her, give her a 1,000 piso note and ask her to go buy something of small value. If she brings back your change, continue the relationship. If she pockets the money without offering it back to you, kick her to the curb.

If she can do all of the above, most likely, she will end up being the best wife you could ever hope to have. Upon returning home and starting the visa process, you can send her enough to live on until you are together again. This would be equivalent to $150 USD / month, if she is living at home.

I won't be taking any of that advice.

I make my own financial decisions, so no amount of request for unneeded money would be heeded. I expect that we would always give the parents some support. They have invested more money in this daughter than in the other children.

The family home is getting old. It's quite serviceable, but it's made of bamboo. There's a real problem with providing any financial assistance in the beginning because it would be seen as not respecting the father who has worked this farm all his life and built everything from scratch. So I expect I would bide my time and then buy a compressed earth block machine. My intention would be to start off with a typhoon shelter, but eventually build a small home that we would use, and replace the family home.

The money that they invested in her education was a huge sacrifice. I will make sure that it's returned several fold. This family is not plagued by alcoholism or gambling, and she has assured me that it was never violent. So I'm not going to go into it with the idea that they might be no good. A good portion of my own family are no good. If I'm able to find a better family and join them, I will.

I would certainly never entertain the idea of supporting grown adults you should be working. But I  wouldn't have a problem paying the school fees for a number of nephews and nieces. But I think the way to do that would be to create a business there, that could be run by family members who farm in the local area. Just having that extra land, would be a big boost to that family and it wouldn't cost me much at all. I'd like to run a fish farm. Something with little or no input from outside sources. And I'm sure I could make find a hundred other things that I'd like to try, in a country where good labour can be hired for $5 a day. I could see building any number of alternative things from cheap materials, in a setting like this.

If she's handling money that I have earned it would be because it's something to do with our business. I won't be setting up a test like that.

She's not someone I found near the curb, so no need to send her back there.

I'm not expecting her to be like women from some other era. I hope that she can be a strong confident woman. I've never been interested in having a lap dog.

Her family requires a chaperone at all times, so I don't think she has much in common with the women you spoke of earlier who are all itching to go on a date at a moment's notice.

Dale Hodgins wrote:I won't be taking any of that advice.

Like I said, it was unsolicited. And, it seems you know everything already.

How many times have you visited the Philippines? (That was a rhetorical question. I already have an idea.)

Good luck.

Dale Hodgins wrote:
Let's hear it ladies. And let's break it down according to age. If a guy is 25 and he post some photos showing that he's in good shape, is that a negative?

Now suppose that he's 54 like I am, where much of the competition are flabby guys with man boobs. If I were still looking, would it work to my advantage, to display the results of my efforts, if I gave a little blurb explaining just how much time I put into it.

I'm 33 years old. I think the problem with these sorts of pictures is that they are all about the muscle. The feel like a cheep pick-up-line: something done JUST to get a girl, which is a turn off. Now, if there were pictures that showed a guy using his strength in useful or fun ways, without trying to show off, that might be better. A guy in a normal, not-baggy shirt in a "candid" picture, like climbing a tree or swinging an ax or pushing a broken-down car is about 100 times more attractive than a topless shirt of a guy posing in front of a camera. Now that I'm married, I love pictures where my husband's strength is featured, but I would have been totally turned off if he's sent me pictures when we were dating.  The more candid the picture is, the better, in my opinion. It's like saying, "Here I am, doing something I believe in/am good at/enjoy doing." The woman likes seeing what you're interested/passionate/strong in, and then ALSO notices that, "Oh wow, he's hot, too."  I picture that is just showing off muscle says, "You want me because I'm Hot" to which the woman thinks, "If all you're about is trying desperately to look hot to get laid, I don't want anything to do with you."

Of course, I'm not a "normal" woman, so I don't know how much of my advice applies to "normal" women...but then, I'm figuring guys here on permies are probably not looking for "normal" women. So, perhaps my opinion is still helpful.

I married more of a Luke Skywalker than a Hans Solo. I always thought Hans Solo was a bit of a jerk. I don't like jerks. But, I do know how many women have the urge to go for "bad guys," especially bad guys they feel they can "tame." The, I-killed-a-lion-and-was-going-to-go-fight-another-guy-for-his-lion-but-you-told-me-that-wasn't-nice,-so-I'm-not. They want all of the fierceness and strength, but they want it supporting and working with them, rather than doing whatever it wants all the time. What this ends up looking like in todays society is that they want jerks that they think they can turn into not-jerk...which doesn't work most of the time. BUT, I'm thinking a guy can show strength and daring without being a jerk, and they might be as successful at "getting a girl."

I think it also depends on what kind of girl a guy is looking for. There ARE girls that like nice, dependable guys. These girls are a bit more rare, and not often part of normal dating scenes. Being a jerk will almost certainly turn these girls away, while it might attract the other type of girl. The question is, who do you want to be with?

As for the amount of muscle tone on a guy, here's a useful picture:



I think it's generally accepted that most women are attracted to something between the 10-20% on that chart. The 6-7% is a little too muscular, but not gross like the 3-4%. The 25% is a bit flabby, but also not gross or off-putting. The 25% is like "Okay, this person has other focuses than being strong, but they don't look unhealthy."

Frankly, when I met my husband, I was 19 and he was 22. He was around the 25% mark. I honestly didn't care one bit about whether or not he was muscular. He was strong, and not too overweight, and had some acne and a great smile. Rather than appearances, I was more interested in whether or not he was nice, liked Jesus, was funny, was weird, and was someone I could talk deeply with. A few years into our marriage, he became all about paleo/primal eating, and he got a lot a lot stronger. He's now somewhere around the 12%, and I think he's hot... but I  thought he was hot the whole time he was getting stronger. I'm more interested in him, than in his appearances.

I'm not sure if I want to laugh or cry after skimming (I just couldn't read some of the longer posts) through this thread.

Words like 'game' and 'market' jump out at me and color my view.
so....

Things every young guy should know.

Just be yourselves guys....work on your own self for your own benefit...be real!

Forget movie star stereotypes...they are ACTORS...be yourselves...

I see I've left out my usual 'I think' prefaces....take this as an opinionated opinion from a woman who is into the 43rd year of a very wonderful, still interesting relationship

There is a little bit of Education. Thanks Nicole. It's a fairly small survey sampling, but Nicole doesn't believe the type of pictures posted would be effective. I have never actually posted that type of picture on a dating site. But I did think about doing it, wondering what it would do for my chances.

Perhaps men are more visual than women. It wouldn't matter what a woman said, if the pictures clearly indicated that she was horribly out of shape, I would not click into the profile to read what was said. But again that's when I'm online where there are ten thousand choices. In real life, people arrive in all sorts of shapes and sizes and most people will say hello to almost anyone they meet.

I've noticed since I started working out that I get a little more attention, but it's mostly from people I know already, who simply observe that I'm looking different. And I don't walk around town in muscle shirts. Always long-sleeved, almost always with a broad brim hat.

Perhaps we should leave physical stuff out of this for now. Does anyone have ideas how they can help fellows with no game, where it has nothing to do with their physical presentation?

We seem to have determined that one liners aren't appreciated, although my history begs to differ.

So do we have other ideas? Not about how he can live happily ever after. But how he can make the initial contact, so there's a chance of striking up a conversation.
.........
Personal anecdotes.  
I don't think that Snappy one-liners are terribly useful on their own. They are simply an icebreaker. To me, their main function is to let the woman know that you are interested in her. She may be someone you encounter regularly, but you are faceless in the crowd. I think it's good to stand out from the crowd.

My most recent example of a well-timed flirtation, happened at a restaurant. A lady quickly removed her jacket, while remarking to her friend, that she was too hot. I was seated at the next table. She took it off and sat down 2 feet from me. A crowded place. I said, removing that jacket hasn't helped, I think it's your eyes that are making you so hot. Then I turned to her friend, and said, what do you think? I think it's the eyes. In your case, it's definitely the sweater. It All Happened very quickly and then that was it. An opportunity to engage with two pretty women, presented itself and in less than 5 seconds, I had both of them smiling. This didn't turn into a steamy threesome, and I wasn't expecting it to. In fact I wasn't expecting anything. This minor opportunity presented itself and I automatically responded. I went about my business on the phone, while they chatted. When they got up to leave, both said nice meeting you. The jacket went back on, so I said, now you're even hotter! And both ladies departed with a smile.

I must tell you about the guy with the least game of anyone I've known. His name is John and he used to work for me, filling garbage cans and dumping them in the bin and then returning to fill the garbage can again. That's about the most skilled work I could ever find that John was able to do without screwing it up.

John had this habit of approaching every female customer that came to my job sites and offering his services, to carry stuff and put it in her car how to tie it to the roof, or to help her assemble it at home. On many occasions I told him to stop it and to continue working and leave these women alone.

The final straw was when a woman bought something weighing about 5 lb and John rushed away from the work he was supposed to be doing, to offer to carry it to the car. I asked the woman, do you have any interest in dating a fall down drunk who fills garbage cans for a living? She didn't. And John dragged his sorry ass back to the garbage can. I explained to the lady that this was a constant problem and she had just witnessed a spanking. He was mad about that. I informed him that that's what would happen every time he stopped work to impose himself on my customers. No game.