So You Think You Know What It Means to Be A Catholic?

There is "the Press"and there is the "Gift". I as a Catholic have experienced both. "The Press" only gets it half right; at times they see the true ugliness just enough for prejudices to complete the picture. I also have "the Gift". The "Gift" is the inner certainty gift through Baptism and Confirmation that gives an inner peace and strength.This is not about men but about God dwelling in you or rather you in Him. There have been many forces from without and within the Roman Catholic Church seeking to make scandal. Some of these are organized and infiltrative.It is not a hard thing to overthrow men in the church.But it is impossible to overcome the inner "Gift". It is no surprise that men fail and fall but God never does. The Cross leads to success and not failure. But it is primarily for the next life in Heaven and not to be judged by any man's standards.

Have you seen the movie the book of Eli ?

Amazing parallels to your post.

Curious to know the purpose of this thread.  Is it asking a question?  Or making a statement?  What information is being conveyed?

Stuart, do you preach on the street?  I don't mean to offend you, but I am curious.

No, I don't think I known what it means to be a Catholic

At the moment I'm studying texts by Kirpal Singh who also understands that 'god' is a part of us all.

There have been many forces from without and within the Roman Catholic Church seeking to make scandal. Some of these are organized and infiltrative

I'm not sure I understand ....Are you saying that pedophiles have 'infiltrated' the catholic church disguised as priests?

Timothy Markus wrote:Stuart, do you preach on the street?  I don't mean to offend you, but I am curious.

. No I do not preach on the street. The purpose of this thread is to enlighten those who judge the Catholic Church from how the Media including movies and books are depicting it. One should not be surprised that I speak of infiltration it is a historical fact that goes far back. Judas Iscariot could also be so described. The Communists certainly had "peace priests" that even became bishops. Many also cooperated with Hitler against the Pope's orders. There are many major events that Freemasons have controlled like 9/11. Send me a purple moose message and I will give you a link to prove that it was perpetrated by the Bush cabal and media.

To clarify,  your belief is that the Freemasons and the mafia are working together to "install" pedophiles in the Catholic church,  and that the Freemasons orchestrated the destruction of the twin towers on 9/11? Also,  someone is using aircraft to poison our land with aluminum? Personally,  I'm sceptical of these claims.

What is the purpose of this thread here? There are loads of places to talk about religion and conspiracy all over the internet, why here? How does your take influence your approach to self sufficiency and natural food?

I'm also curious why you choose catholicism as opposed to other christian denominations?

stephen lowe wrote:What is the purpose of this thread here? There are loads of places to talk about religion and conspiracy all over the internet, why here? How does your take influence your approach to self sufficiency and natural food?

I'm also curious why you choose catholicism as opposed to other christian denominations?

It is quite amazing that one can talk about anything in Cider Press but belief in Catholicism draws such varied and negative questioning. This is why I write. If you are not interested in this thread,pass it by. Maybe you may question your views maybe not. I am not writing to justify only to illuminate.I do believe this forum is Religion and Spirituality. Why do you question it's legality here? I've also noted that all the comments received likes but mine has none.No prejudice here Permies?

Find out about how harmless Freemasons really are:9/11 No Planes | 9/11 PLANES HOAX
https://911planeshoax.com/tag/911-no-planes/

Permies.com is a board for discussion of how to make the world a better place using permaculture.

It is not a place to promote conspiracy theories that have nothing to do with permaculture.

I'd like everyone to check through each post they have made in this thread and make sure it meets publication standards.  In particular we won't publish anythign that claims to be 'truth' or 'fact' rather than opinion.  Or anything which suggests another member is wrong or less than perfect.

I'm hoping someone can explain the Sasquatch that I saw this morning, but more about that later.

The Catholic church has many problems and I believe that they were all created by people within the church. Their ban on marriage of priests may have led to thousands of people with unusual sexual proclivities choosing a profession within the church. Whistleblowers have often been punished and ostracized. So the culture within the church has protected some serious offenders.

I remember during the eighties how often we saw Mother Teresa trotted out as an example of a good Catholic. She raised Millions for the poor of India and some portion of the money was spent on that cause. Christopher Hitchens did a good job of exposing her activities. There's a book called The Missionary Position and a video called Hell's Angel. Both quite interesting.

To use a religious saying , I think the writing is on the wall for the Catholic Church. During a recent trip to the Philippines, I met many people who no longer put any stock in it. A generation ago, I expect most of those people would have been regular churchgoers. My atheism isn't a problem with most of the people who I know there. So even in a religious stronghold, where education levels are lower, the church is losing ground. They have pretty much lost in Ireland. It was almost completely Catholic 50 years ago.

I didn't hit the like button. I gave a couple thumbs down. You don't get to demand recognition of what you consider sound ideas. To me it all looks like complete malarkey.

A lot of this stuff is on YouTube. Here's a little exercise that anyone can do. If you've heard something and you're not sure if it's a conspiracy theory, just follow the links for a little while. You might jump from Masons control in the Catholic Church, to the Sandy Hook shootings didn't happen, to My Cousin Vinny blew up the World Trade Center to something about that Sasquatch I mentioned earlier. It's a birds of a feather thing. One  conspiracy leads to another to another. Anyone who doesn't believe in the conspiracy must somehow be in on it. So if I don't believe that the government is poisoning people from the air, it's probably because I'm flying one of the planes or as I might make money manufacturing the poison. Seems like a really bad way to kill people if you're not trying to kill yourself to.
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To all the other Catholics reading this. Does this thread make you feel uncomfortable at all? How do you think he's doing? :-)

I have let others handle this because I know many are already familiar with my position on religion, and I,  raised a good catholic boy.

I will reiterate for any not familiar. Religion was a tool used by pre-scientific man to try and explain existence. It was a fine tool, as long as it lasted, but had its flaws. But now we have greater tools, and many people are frustrated by the lack of actual answers provided by a mystical approach, and so reason has largely replaced religion where they are in conflict.

Conspiracy theories are the campfire ghost stories of the day. Where we engage in them as flights of fancy, that's fine, I guess, though I don't really get it.

It's where it starts to affect your decision-making process that it becomes an issue, especially if those decisions are life and death, such as where religious or personal exemptions result in denying children medical treatment, who then die.

So perhaps we might want to think about the log in our own eyes, rather than trying to pick out the speck in our neighbour's.

And the title of the thread is needlessly provocative for the content. There have been conspiracy theories about masons in the church since those masons were employed to build the great gothic cathedrals. Considering the fact that religious sectarianism has historically been the cause of much death and destruction, I am surprised that anyone would have the courage to bring their apples to the table with such a brazenly insulting thread title and subject matter.

I think the best controversial opinions are those we keep to ourselves in polite company.

-CK

Trace Oswald wrote: To clarify,  your belief is that the Freemasons and the mafia are working together to "install" pedophiles in the Catholic church,  and that the Freemasons orchestrated the destruction of the twin towers on 9/11? Also,  someone is using aircraft to poison our land with aluminum? Personally,  I'm sceptical of these claims.

Fascinating train of thought that oddly jumped tracks to include aluminum.

For a bunch of environmentalists whose entire future rests on the composition of healthy soil, it is very concerning that this topic is lumped in with sasquaches. There is a difference between a conspiracy theory and an open secret. The difference being that open secrets are matters of public record.

Permies readers think for themselves.  if they were satisfied with labels or cared what the politically correct authorities think on subjects, they would be tilling and using petroleum based fertilizers and round up.

I think with any movement or power, it can be co-opted for selfish purposes. I'm sure there's probably some people who have PDCs just to make money, rather than to help people--just as there are undoubtedly pastors who use thier congregations' tithes to buy fancy stuff rather than to help the poor, and there are priests who use the power of the catholic church to do selfish and even horrific things. There are people who sell diets who don't actually follow them and just tout them as a way to make money or fame or power.

Where there is power, there are those that would use it for wrong purposes.

And, while there are those that abuse power, there are those that believe in the thing. There are true vegans, true Catholics, true Christians, true Muslims, true permaculturalists, etc who follow what they believe because they believe it.

I think what Stuart might be trying to say with "gift" and "press" is that there are people who truly believe in God and are filled with the gift of His Spirit and love... and there are those that don't truly believe and just use religion as a tool to further their own--often nasty goals. The press, of course, focuses on the latter, than the former. We hear far more frequently about extremists and those that corrupt movements, rather than those that actually follow the movements and do good.

In a way, I'm glad that the media reveals those that are corrupt. I definitely don't want them to remain in power! But, I think what ends up happening is that all people of a belief get lumped with he corrupt ones. "If you're a catholic you must be a pedophiles" or "if your are a Muslim, than you must be a terrorist" or "if you are a Christian, you must be illogical and a racist" or "if you are an atheist, you must be cold hearted and selfish" etc.

These are stereotypes, and I think the lovely thing about permies is that we ALL fit into some stereotype, but we break those stereotypes. We all work together to build a better world. We can say, "Hey, not all atheists are heartless" and "not all catholics are pedophiles." Here on permies, we get to meet the true, altruistic believers of all sort of faiths and ideals, and we can break those stereotypes and focus on what unites, rather than divides, us.

Catholics are actually a diverse lot, largely due to the centuries of history existing in the context of different cultural traditions. The Church itself is careful not to alienate large portions of its followers, for fear of rendering itself irrelevant, because even the church leads as most leaders do, and that at a run to keep up with the most of their membership.

I am encouraged by whatever overhaul can occur within the Church to rid itself of institutionalized aiding and abetting of sin. I like Francis. I believe him to be what he says. I have similar faith in the faithful of South America to use their faith to strengthen community and find common positions behind which to rally in their lives.

But when I hear someone attack from a position of incoherent hostility, it makes me wonder about whataboutism, and what evil might be hiding behind such an attack.

I know it makes me think.

-CK

Stuart Sparber wrote:The "Gift" is the inner certainty gift through Baptism and Confirmation that gives an inner peace and strength.

Many people who were raised up in the Church, Baptized and Confirmed, do not apparently receive "the gift".  They lose their faith and depart from the Church.  This is inevitably ascribed to the individual's failure to accept "the gift" and not to God's failure to bestow it.

I found this video to have an interesting discussion regarding this:  

The single trait that irritates me the most in other people and that causes me to distrust them or distrust what they might tell me, is if they have unshakable certainty in something, when I can't see any way that someone could be certain. When they express absolute certainty in one thing that I can't see, then I discount everything they have to say in other areas, assuming that they have no way of backing up anything they say.

That's what I like about scientific study. All manner of theories are presented, but it doesn't start out with certainty about something. And it doesn't present a bunch of dichotomies, the idea that if it's not this it must be that, when really it might be a thousand different things.

Stuart-
There are many Catholics who are active in homesteading and permaculture. Some are active here on permies.com. Many have found a meaningful interweaving of taking care of the planet, helping humans nourish their bodies, and finding a way to share their spirituality with others in cooperative ways.    Here are some examples:

https://thosecatholicmen.com/articles/667/

https://catholichomesteader.com/2017/11/24/catholic-homesteading/

http://newcatholiclandmovement.org/to-farm-or-to-homestead/

https://www.catholicgentleman.net/2015/01/praise-catholic-homesteading/

There are also many other types of Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and many people who take a mix of spiritual traditions.   We do have some militant atheists, as you can see above, but don't think that we are all anti-spirituality and faith.  You will probably get more apples and likes from sharing a mix of spirituality and taking care of the earth.  
God Bless,
John S
PDX OR

I find the idea of militant atheism hilarious. I don't know how it's possible to be militantly for an absence of something.

What I see is people having to constantly defend their choice to believe reason over dogma. You will never hear from an atheist on the subject of religion unless someone else starts harping about "those godless heathens."

I wish, at those times, that the faithful would remember their own teachings, and love one another, love their neighbours, love thine enemies, and all that great stuff. The love stuff is honestly the best stuff in the bible. Maybe we should focus on love, eh?

-CK

Stuart Sparber wrote: (from Judith)I'm not sure I understand ....Are you saying that pedophiles have 'infiltrated' the catholic church disguised as priests?      
(from Stuart) Yes Judith I know it as a fact. Freemasons have infiltrated for years and now they have an alliance with members of the Mafia ( at least in N.Y.) I know this by firsthand experience having known a niece of a consigliere of one of the five N.Y. area families. She recruited young men in my childhood neighborhood to become priests in the Brooklyn Diocese some of whom had homosexual problems.

I'm not homosexual, but I'm darn offended by Stuart's post.  Why would someone associate homosexuality with pedophiles (PLEASE DO NOT ANSWER THIS!!!)?  It's just SO horrible to do this.  I don't believe Christ would approve.

I am uncomfortable with the term "Homosexual problems" and I also really dislike equating pedophilia with homosexuality.  

Chris Kott wrote ," I find the idea of militant atheism hilarious. I don't know how it's possible to be militantly for an absence of something.

What I see is people having to constantly defend their choice to believe reason over dogma. You will never hear from an atheist on the subject of religion unless someone else starts harping about "those godless heathens."

I wish, at those times, that the faithful would remember their own teachings, and love one another, love their neighbours, love thine enemies, and all that great stuff. The love stuff is honestly the best stuff in the bible. Maybe we should focus on love, eh?"

I have known many people who describe themselves as "militant atheists". Your prediction that I will never hear from an atheist on religion unless someone is harping about those heathens is incorrect.  I often hear atheists leading with attacks on people of faith, even on this forum.  I work with and socialize with militant atheists.   They are usually not very pleasant to be around, at least on that topic.   It is possible to be militantly for the absence of Black people in power, the absence of Gays in the military, for the absence of Moslems or immigrants in our country or voting, and for the absence of Women expressing their opinions.  Many atheists are quiet about it, just as many people of faith are. Many atheists and many people of faith can have reasonable discussions on the topic of faith and disagree.  Many people of faith are also annoyed when a public school teacher says, "You must believe in Jesus" to the students, even when we happen to agree that a relationship with Jesus will improve your life.  Many people of faith are deeply injured when someone of faith harms others, just as one's political, sports, music, entertainment or other admired ones do horrible acts.  

Many people of faith feel they are attacked for belief in God or Jesus, but notice that belief in Love is not attacked. Can you see or prove love? Many argue that it is not there.  Belief in liberty, freedom, self-determination, karma, cooperation-they aren't proven by reason.  Society needs them, but they aren't attacked.  

Modern physics has essentially proven that living only by reason is ineffective and impossible.  Some people are unwilling to modernize.  I am tolerant of their beliefs but unenthusiastic about their diatribes.

John S
PDX OR