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Notre Dame

 
garden master
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:(  So terrible and sad :(
Staff note (r ranson):

Permies is planting trees in memory of this sad event. https://permies.com/t/110107/

 
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https://www.npr.org/2019/04/15/713525879/paris-notre-dame-cathedral-in-flames


 
Greg Martin
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I can't. :(
 
Greg Martin
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Tyler Ludens wrote:I can't. :(



I know.  It's a building, but I'm devastated.

When the time comes my wife and I will find some money to add to the rebuilding fund.  In some small way this cathedral feels like a part of me.
 
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Did we find out if the people are safe?

 
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So far, there are no fatalities reported.  

Very sad to have this happen to another historic, iconic structure.  So reminiscent of the Glasgow School of Art last summer.  To undertake renovations of such a treasure without fire suppression systems should be unthinkable . . .
 
Judith Browning
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Here's a couple beautiful videos done against the facade of the towers...the second one was for the anniversary of ww1 in 2017.





 
Greg Martin
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Thank you Judith...amazing.  I particularly loved the forest scene in the first video with the fox, moving through until arriving at the cathedral....just stunning what they did.

This all makes me reflect on the emotions that can be attached to what we build, in stone or in forest design.  Sometimes that can rise to amazing heights.

I think I heard that they have saved the outer walls...not sure about the state of the stained glass.  The roof was original and it's gone, but hopefully the new roof that will be built will last at least 800 years more.
 
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Some 35 years ago I walked inside this Cathedral, the stones under foot worn from centuries of visitors to such a site of marvels.  Yet, nothing is permanent, and so I witness the images of these recent events.  A sadness overcomes me, yes, but nothing is permanent.  

Such an event marks my memories, and so shall I pass along the stories of such Iconic Places that I have seen and been.  If the Rosette stain glass no longer be there,... I did marvel at its beauty, I stood there, in awe of the workmanship, of its timelessness.   Yet, there is no such a thing as permanence, and so we move forward, in sadness,... yes, but move forward, non the less.  The essence of what we call History, is a recollection of what was, and in most instances, is no longer.  

The telling of the stories is what lives on, through the generations.  I am a stories teller.  I so hope we are many.  
How can we know where we are going, if we don't know where we have been.

Cheers!  K
 
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I was there last May and very impressed by how well preserved the building was. The exterior was undergoing major renovations. I promised my fiance that I would take her there someday.
......
Hitler ordered his General who was in charge of Paris, to destroy Notre Dame and every other significant Monument. That General told him that everything was going well with the preparations, but he was not planning to carry through with that order. He risked execution and lied to the leadership about the progress on wiring Paris for destruction. After the war, that General visited Paris with his family, as a tourist and was welcomed as a hero. Paris survived Hitler and they will survive this unfortunate event.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_von_Choltitz
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Seems to be happening a lot lately. Sounds like there have a bunch of others in France.

Web search :  "2019 churches burn around the world".

Also Mosques  Article here
 
Dale Hodgins
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Structural fires are not uncommon, when old buildings are being worked on. Everything from electricity, to welding, to the propensity of French workers to constantly smoke cigarettes, could be the cause. I think the chances of the cause ever being completely discovered are rather slim, due to the extent of the fire.

Within the next few days, various people on YouTube will become absolutely certain that they know what happened. This will accomplish nothing other than to turn one group of people against another. All we know for sure, is that a cultural artifact caught fire, 2 hours after large numbers of workmen went home for the day. I have dealt with many small fires on my demolition sites. Cigarette smoking and cutting steel with a grinder or torch were likely causes.
 
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My assessment is congruent with Dale's. It's likely a spark or cinder dropped somewhere that it took some time to catch. By the time it was producing smoke, everyone had left the site, and it was likely too late, besides.

I am saddened by the loss of any historical artifact. My much-better-half was really unhappy. Neither of us had seen it, and it was on her list. I am just glad nobody was hurt.

But there are detailed digital scans. It will be restored to whatever extent possible. It will welcome visitors again.

-CK
 
r ranson
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I would like to learn more about construction and fire dangers, especially in old buildings like that.

I imagine they would have some sort of fire suppression system... unless, they were in the process of installing a fire suppression system.  
 
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Chris Kott wrote:My assessment is congruent with Dale's. It's likely a spark or cinder dropped somewhere that it took some time to catch. By the time it was producing smoke, everyone had left the site, and it was likely too late, besides.



While that is certainly a possibility, the cause is as yet unknown and is being investigated.

 
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I walked this church decades ago on a trip to Europe, and was amazed by the beauty it represents. Let's keep this thread focused on what has been lost, what is left that we may be able to rebuild, and leave any blaming to the authorities.
 
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I understand that many of the "super rich" are donating to a restoration fund now and it is currently over 679million.

The church was timber framed as well as being limestone, and 700 year old timbers would have been very dry.

I was inside Notre Dame in the 70's and got to wander through the timber roof supports with a guide, even then there was concern about anyone up in that area smoking.
I don't believe there was any fire abatement system installed after I was there.

It is a sad loss mostly I will miss the stained glass that wasn't removed prior to the start of work.

*addendum* None of the windows were damaged and none of the artifacts were lost, even the alter survived with little damage. This was reported the next day
 
Greg Martin
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Wow.  On the nightly news they just said the roof was constructed from 1700 trees.  That's a small forest that was lost.

One thing about this event, and the consideration of how it has affected me emotionally, is the recognition of how strongly we can be moved by grand artistic creations.  I hope that we can create permaculture communities and dramatic forest gardens that create emotional experiences by those that visit and eat in/from them.  Perhaps that's not worthy of a comparison, but I'd love to be part of fulfilling a truly grand artistic permaculture vision.  I know that that could also move me deeply.
 
Greg Mamishian
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Greg Martin wrote:Wow.  On the nightly news they just said the roof was constructed from 1700 trees.  That's a small forest that was lost.

One thing about this event, and the consideration of how it has affected me emotionally, is the recognition of how strongly we can be moved by grand artistic creations.  I hope that we can create permaculture communities and dramatic forest gardens that create emotional experiences by those that visit and eat in/from them.  Perhaps that's not worthy of a comparison, but I'd love to be part of fulfilling a truly grand artistic permaculture vision.  I know that that could also move me deeply.



Notre Dame as well as every other artistic creation has an inspiration. If you can find what inspires you will create your vision. My visions aren't grand... so my creations are on a tiny scale. ;)
 
r ranson
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Greg Martin wrote:Wow.  On the nightly news they just said the roof was constructed from 1700 trees.  That's a small forest that was lost.



Here's a totally crazy thought: what if in the memory of this event, the people of permies got together and planted 1700 trees?  Are there enough of us out there?

Besides, I love any excuse to plant trees.  
 
Greg Martin
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r ranson wrote:

Greg Martin wrote:Wow.  On the nightly news they just said the roof was constructed from 1700 trees.  That's a small forest that was lost.



Here's a totally crazy thought: what if in the memory of this event, the people of permies got together and planted 1700 trees?  Are there enough of us out there?

Besides, I love any excuse to plant trees.  



I love that!!!  I will plant the beginnings of a one acre forest garden design this year...you can count me in for at least 20 trees this month :)  Maybe I can add some more as a challenge.  I will do some thinking.
 
Jay Angler
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@ r ranson and Greg Martin - I think that's an awesomely permie-ish response! I've got 4 or 5 trees in the queue to be planted, but have been working on guild members to go with them. Buildings such as Notre Dame would have been built by members of various guilds as the "earliest types of guild formed as a confraternities of tradesmen". That works for me.
 
Greg Mamishian
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More will need to be planted to replace the trees that'll be cut to put on the new roof. We'd like to pitch in, but our land is already covered with fruit and nut trees.
 
r ranson
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I'm going to find some mulberry trees.  I have enough room for half a dozen or so.  



Last night I got an etsy order to send a book to a home two blocks from where I spent much of my childhood.  So I looked on google maps and boy has that place changed!  The house where I was seven is now twice the size and the old apple trees along the back have vanished.  But out front, next to the driveway, there is a massive willow tree.  A weeping willow, far taller than the house.  My father planted that cutting in the boggy soil a couple of weeks after we moved in without much ceremony.  He got the cutting from a walk in one of the local parks, a historical site famous for its great redwoods and diversity of trees.  That was our first non-moving-related outing as a family in the new town and along the path was a willow branch that the caretakers were trimming.  Dad asked if he could take a little bit and they cut it to size for him.  

The cutting was about four inches long, short enough to stuff in his pocket.  When we got home, he stopped the car at the bottom of the driveway and got out and stuck the stick in the ground.

No ceremony, nothing exceptional in the event.  Except for the memory.

Now there is a beautiful big tree where there wasn't one.  I see that and I remember.  Many of the trees we planted there aren't anymore.  But this one is magnificent!  

That's the value of planting trees.  
 
Chris Kott
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I must admit that the first thing that occurred to me to think, upon seeing the donations mounting for Notre Dame's reconstruction, was of the sort of massive permacultural good that could be done with that kind of money.

What would happen if we threw that kind of change at a desertification-reversal program on the east cost of the continent of Africa, for instance? Or to regrow mangrove swamps on the american gulf and south eastern coast, or meadows of sea grasses in the Atlantic, or wherever?

And I had another thought some will probably consider sacrilegious: does it need to be a straight-up restoration, which is difficult, considering the lack of appropriate timber? I wonder how it would look rebuilt with a glazed roof? How would it do as a giant greenhouse?

And would there be any money left with which to plant a replacement forest for the one that wasn't regrown to replace those taken for the old roof?

-CK
 
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Chris Kott wrote:
And would there be any money left with which to plant a replacement forest for the one that wasn't regrown to replace those taken for the old roof?

-CK



Interestingly, during the medieval times, the forests were so well managed, that when a church was built, trees were planted and tagged to be there in 200 years when that church needed a new beam. This long-term forestry management has sadly been lost.

When I was at a timber-mill funded interpretive centers (Weyerhaeuser's Forest Learning Center at Mount Saint Helen's), they proudly displayed a comparison between trees in a non-managed forest, and the same ones in a managed forest. The managed forest trees grew taller and wider faster...and you could tell the wood was markedly less dense. Like so much of our culture, the forestry industry seems to want "bigger, better, faster"...but misses out on the "better" part. They grew more wood faster, but at a much lower quality. I would love to see more managed forests that contained copicing, as well as full grown trees of multiple different species, rather than (as is done in my area), massive monocrops of western hemlock.

To that end, I've been copicing my big leaf maples and growing hazelnuts and chestnuts. Some chestnuts will be full grown, and others will be copiced. We've got a black walnut growing, as well as cedars and alders (the alders grow fast and fall down, making firewood and mushroom logs).  

Supposedly most of the trees used to make Notre Dam were oak trees. They are such SLOW GROWING, dense trees. My mom planted one 33 years ago, and it's still a skinny small tree, dwarfed by the maples and sequoia that are years younger than it. I'm pretty sure the oak tree hasn't even started making acorns yet. The tree is the same age as me, and hasn't even reached sexual maturity!
 
Nicole Alderman
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I wonder, if maybe, just maybe, we could manage to plant 13,000 oak trees?

Could we set up a thread for planting 17,000 trees, and another thread for 13,000 oak trees. There could be overlap, of course! We've got *goes and checks* 31,000 people on our dailyish email. Even if only 1/2 of them live an area that can grow an oak tree, if everyone that did live in a place that can grow an oak, plants one, that's easily 13,000 oak trees. Oaks grow slowly. You could probably plant it in a pot until sneakily planting it in a park or future property or friend's house...
 
r ranson
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Nicole Alderman wrote:I wonder, if maybe, just maybe, we could manage to plant 13,000 oak trees?

... Oaks grow slowly. You could probably plant it in a pot until sneakily planting it in a park or future property or friend's house...



I used to do that with trees when I lived in the apartment.  I'm a sucker for buying trees and starting them from seed or cutting.  I would grow them on the balcony for a few years and when they grew too large, find a friend who needed a tree in their yard, or go to one of the local parks and one day a fig or maple would suddenly appear planted in the ground.  

So even people without land can join in!

 
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I'm definitely here for the planting of trees to replace what Notre Dame needed!
We should start a thread and everyone should comment "__ trees planted!" when the deed is done!
 
Alexis Richard
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Alexis Richard wrote:I'm definitely here for the planting of trees to replace what Notre Dame needed!
We should start a thread and everyone should comment "__ trees planted!" when the deed is done!



In fact... know what? I'm gonna do that now. After all, the second best time to start something new is today! (favorite saying of my procrastinating self...)
 
r ranson
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Alexis Richard wrote:I'm definitely here for the planting of trees to replace what Notre Dame needed!
We should start a thread and everyone should comment "__ trees planted!" when the deed is done!



funny you might mention this.    Nicole's just made a thread for this project.

I'm so excited to see how many trees we can grow.

 
Alexis Richard
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r ranson wrote:

Alexis Richard wrote:I'm definitely here for the planting of trees to replace what Notre Dame needed!
We should start a thread and everyone should comment "__ trees planted!" when the deed is done!



funny you might mention this.    Nicole's just made a thread for this project.

I'm so excited to see how many trees we can grow.



OMG! Thanks for the point R!! I was already off and running lol. And Nicole's looks waaaaaaaay better than mine would have let's be honest. :D
I'm gonna have to go buy some more trees now!!!
 
Kate Michaud
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The Mighty Oak, The King of trees, thus regarded by the Irish and Scots.  It was against Celtic Law to fell a living Oak for a profane purpose.  A sacred tree in times gone by, and still to this day in my family, I was raised to never fell a living Oak.  

My homestead is covered in them, and as my mother taught me, I have taught my daughter, Oaks are sacred, the King of trees, and I am comforted to have my home among them.  So lives on an ancient tradition, in reverence of Nature, Oaks in the building of such magnificent structures as that of Notre Dame.  

The fading trades that built Notre Dame will now come to the forefront of her rebuilding.  Without such an events as this fire, would these Old Knowledge Trades have survived?  Every available Craft Person of these ancient trades will be called upon, and new ones trained.  This is a project that Modernism can't respond to, but the near forgotten Trades will see a rebirth.  

There is more to be said here, yet I can't, at this moment, put into words, the feeling is that Ancient Wisdom is at work here.

Cheers!  K
 
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I have seen it said that the oaks that were cut for the roof timbers were 300 to 400 years old. From photos, the timbers were much straighter and more uniform than ones in English medieval buildings, even cathedrals, tended to be. I think it is quite possible that the oak trees to replicate that roof do not exist in France any more, even if they were willing to cut them down.

I think that the rebuilding of what was after all not the public focus of the structure is likely to be steel framed, even if the finishing aims to replicate the original appearance and exterior materials. I would expect to see a number of exciting original designs for the new roof structure from the design competition already announced.

The wood-framed spire was a 19th century masterwork replacing the long-lost original spire, and I wonder if that will be a focus for a 21st century masterwork commemorating the rebuilding.
 
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