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Piss, how much is too much..

 
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Soo.. I hear things like "to fertilize with piss, dilute it with water 10 to 1"... Well I was in a rush, and wanted to see if I could both boost the surronung plants, clear a spot for future planting, and deter deer in one go. ((By the way, I'm often sick / to tired to get out of bed to piss soooo (and knowing of its environmental standings) I piss in big bottles.))   ..so I had like 10 gallons.. Put it all in ONE spot, it probably ran down the slope a bit.. But, NONE of the plants look any different from the surroundings!!!?? I doo drink a lot of liquids and it did rain maybe a the nth of an inch 2days later.. Still seems like some plants should have been damaged?? anyone know if dilutions are not usualy super nessisary? We have to get water in buckets from a river, a lot of work, it'd be nice to not have to worry so much about it..
 
pollinator
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Whoa, hold your horses there, handsome stranger, seems like you've rode into this here town with a Navy Colt on your hip and a chip on your shoulder!

l kid, I kid.

I have been casually employing "Vitamin X" (using the Brit pronunciation because it's cool) for a great long time.

What I've concluded: you're not feeding the plants directly, you're feeding the soil. Nitrogen good in moderation, phosphorous good, salt bad. That's the careful equation, I think. Concentration is the difference between medicine and poison. Soil bacteria and the depth of organic matter are the buffer between the two, I suspect.

But I'm sure others here can speak with greater expertise, and I defer to their wisdom.
 
Josh Golden
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Aww shucks heh.. Yeah I'm kind amazed nothing was burnt in any obvious way, it is a healthy soil?
 
gardener
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Handsome Stranger you say?


Back in the day I found the movie hilarious!
 
steward
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Josh Golden wrote: I doo drink a lot of liquids....



I think there are many variables at play and this I believe is certainly something to note. Drinking lots of liquids "dilutes" urine, even though it's still 100% urine. This could be one reason why no symptoms of nitrogen burn have been seen.

Story time: Twenty some odd years ago in another life I lost a job due to a drug test or two of them really. I took the first test and a few days later I got a phone call saying I had to retake the test as the sample was too dilute. I assured the person on the phone that the sample was 100% urine, and they said people who drink a lot of fluids can have dilute urine. whatever. I was required to retake the test, which I failed with honors.
 
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Too much pics?
Hold your horses?

So I have a few observations that may be useful, as a male human i have been watering trees and plants my whole life with straight urine and not have seen any detrimental affects even after trying to test it out on the same spot repeatedly.

Now on to the horses part, I have a horse and have noticed that where he urinates in the spring after snow melt but before vigorous growing is the only time plants die from to much urine.

My conclusion is that over a gallon can be poured directly around plants that are actively growing but beware around small tender plants.

Hope that helps.

 
gardener & author
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I've been tempted to water even little seedlings with very diluted urine, and every time it kills the seedlings.But for larger established plants it's fine.

I've never heard that a single application of urine would kill plants (except small new ones, which I learned for myself). You may have to keep trying.

After application of diluted urine I do often see a change in the color of the soil, as if it's a bit too much soluble fertiliser. By the way, the salts from applying soluble fertiliser, including urine, are not necessarily sodium chloride; they are various mineral salts formed by reactions.
 
Josh Golden
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Marc Dube wrote:Too much pics?
Hold your horses?

So I have a few observations that may be useful, as a male human i have been watering trees and plants my whole life with straight urine and not have seen any detrimental affects even after trying to test it out on the same spot repeatedly.

Now on to the horses part, I have a horse and have noticed that where he urinates in the spring after snow melt but before vigorous growing is the only time plants die from to much urine.

My conclusion is that over a gallon can be poured directly around plants that are actively growing but beware around small tender plants.

Hope that helps.
.
.
.

Really! That would be a big help to a lot of people, I think half the turn off is the capture and mixing of the piss.. Yeah looking like small/young plants are more at risk.. My apartment has the same winter piss prob only with a dog piss..

 
Josh Golden
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Rebecca Norman wrote:I've been tempted to water even little seedlings with very diluted urine, and every time it kills the seedlings.But for larger established plants it's fine.

I've never heard that a single application of urine would kill plants (except small new ones, which I learned for myself). You may have to keep trying.

After application of diluted urine I do often see a change in the color of the soil, as if it's a bit too much soluble fertiliser. By the way, the salts from applying soluble fertiliser, including urine, are not necessarily sodium chloride; they are various mineral salts formed by reactions.




Yeah I'm worried about both of those close to my plantings.. I wonder if most un used soil is low enough in salts to be able to have a lot added, I know salts a huge prob in many places.
 
Josh Golden
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James Freyr wrote:

Josh Golden wrote: I doo drink a lot of liquids....



I think there are many variables at play and this I believe is certainly something to note. Drinking lots of liquids "dilutes" urine, even though it's still 100% urine. This could be one reason why no symptoms of nitrogen burn have been seen.

Story time: Twenty some odd years ago in another life I lost a job due to a drug test or two of them really. I took the first test and a few days later I got a phone call saying I had to retake the test as the sample was too dilute. I assured the person on the phone that the sample was 100% urine, and they said people who drink a lot of fluids can have dilute urine. whatever. I was required to retake the test, which I failed with honors.

k


Yeah I drink a lot of liquids, probably the biggest factor, the slight hill I'd say is next.. Drugs! Don't you know drugs often lead to ego deaths!
 
pollinator
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I wonder if part of the guidelines for applying urine are focused around making sure that most of the nutrients in it are actually retained in the soil, as opposed to leaching through or evaporating....both of which would be more likely if a large amount was applied in one spot. I quite commonly slosh undiluted piss around mature plants that I know are heavy nitrogen feeders like corn, nightshades, cucurbits, and brassicas.  But I don't do it more than once or twice in a growing season, and only when the soil is well wet from rain or irrigation.  Usually I'm walking down the row with a gallon jug, so each plant might get half a cup or so, max.  I guess the main point is I'm not bothering to dilute it ahead of time, which would mean toting five-gallon buckets around even more than I already do!
 
Josh Golden
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Alder Burns wrote:I wonder if part of the guidelines for applying urine are focused around making sure that most of the nutrients in it are actually retained in the soil, as opposed to leaching through or evaporating....both of which would be more likely if a large amount was applied in one spot. I quite commonly slosh undiluted piss around mature plants that I know are heavy nitrogen feeders like corn, nightshades, cucurbits, and brassicas.  But I don't do it more than once or twice in a growing season, and only when the soil is well wet from rain or irrigation.  Usually I'm walking down the row with a gallon jug, so each plant might get half a cup or so, max.  I guess the main point is I'm not bothering to dilute it ahead of time, which would mean toting five-gallon buckets around even more than I already do!

l


Yeah direct application is way ezr.. Idk iv never heard anyone say to dilute for any reason besides no burn..
 
pollinator
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So I was checking out fertilization recommendations for pawpaw trees recently, and Kentucky State University suggests a spring application of 4-5 oz of nitrogen per tree. Since they use urea that works out to about 10 oz (~280 grams) grams of urea per tree. While there's more than just urea in urine, and concentration varies, that's roughly equivalent to 10 gallons of urine per tree all at once.
 
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last summer I would piss into a gallon vinegar jug and slop it directly onto my plants - mostly heavy feeders like corn, brassicas, squash, etc.

Never diluted it, and never noticed anything other than healthy vigorous growth response
 
Josh Golden
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Cool cool, yeah the spot I put the 10 gallons is still doing good.. piss is one of the biggest waste streams humans make, yet it also has some of the most needed nutrients for plants, we need to make this normal.  
 
pollinator
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I've written this somewhere on here before. We don't have a bathroom, so I pee in the garden all year. In the growing season, things get pretty crowded in the garden and there are only a few places with room to squat. So those few places get peed on a lot. I move around,but often I'll pee in the same spot for a couple days in a row.

It's possible my chickpeas didn't like it, but even the ones growing in spots I didn't pee weren't great that year. Other than that, I've noticed no problems with direct application.

Oh, and we get little to no rain for two or three months in the summer. I also don't water my garden, so undiluted  pee is all it's getting. I do drink enough water that my pee has little to no colour, though.
 
gardener
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Josh,

I occasionally use urine on my plants in my garden.  As I exclusively plant in woodchips, sometimes when I plant a small plant (like a tomato) in woodchips that have not had an opportunity to decompose yet, they need a fertility booster (I recently did this with some summer squash.  I typically use a plastic cat litter jug which has a wide lid for easy filling and a total capacity of 2.5 gallons.

I will typically get a few cups of coffee and start filling.  Once it is about 1/3-1/2 full I stop filling with urine and fill the rest of the way with water.  I usually do this in a bathroom that has a tub for easy filling and storage.

Once full I simply take the jug out and pour where needed.  One application is almost always enough, even in fresh woodchips.

I do have comfrey growing in the ground right next to the garden beds.  These plants have gotten several doses per season for a couple of years just to really get them growing vigorously.  I don’t think comfrey can possibly get too much nitrogen and as I only use comfrey for chop and drop, I am not concerned about the plants getting too much urine.

Josh, I don’t know what the proper dilution rate is, but urine diluted 50:50 or 25:75 has worked just fine for me.

Eric
 
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I was often confused about this as a kid.  My grandfather would tell me it was good for the plants.  I would pee on them and my grandmother would yell at me that I was going to scorch the plants.  As someone already said, it is good for the soil.  I have pretty much come to the conclusion:  Pee on plants, not good.  Pee near plants, good.  These days I don't dilute, but I do tend to spread it around and not hit the same spots over and over again.  I wouldn't just hit the same plant with store bought fertilizer, why do it when I wiz?
 
Josh Golden
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Thanks everyone! So good to know undilited is usualy safe. Yeah I never put it anywhere but the soil.. Man not having to carry buckets of water from the river to dilute it is going to make my life Soo much easier!!
 
Josh Golden
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Oh and by the way; iv put A LOT of many of the micronutrients in spots in the grass just to see what they liked.. AND NONE OF THEM BURNED EITHER!?!!
 
pollinator
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I think an important factor is initial soil moisture. If the soil is already moist then diffusion will rapidly reduce the concentration of nasties in anyone area. If the soil is dry, plants are already stressed. Adding urine direct to soil can definitely burn plants - we have had various patches of dead lawn to attest to that. But the critical factor seems to be how dry and stressed the soil and plants are to begin with.
 
Josh Golden
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Michael Cox wrote:I think an important factor is initial soil moisture. If the soil is already moist then diffusion will rapidly reduce the concentration of nasties in anyone area. If the soil is dry, plants are already stressed. Adding urine direct to soil can definitely burn plants - we have had various patches of dead lawn to attest to that. But the critical factor seems to be how dry and stressed the soil and plants are to begin with.

.


Yeah there r many factors, I'd expect being dry to be a big one.  I think combining a drip irrigation like system with a piss only toilet would be a great way to work out all the issues
 
pollinator
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This is my first year of adding urine to the garden. I do dilute it but my formula is two urinations per 2-gallon bucket and fill with rain water or sometimes murky pond water.  It's really helped the plants in my new beds and I add any extra to the compost pile.  I constantly find myself not drinking enough this time of the year as I get busy and don't think about it so my urine isn't as diluted as it should be.  My husband has offered his urine as well but he's on at least eleven different medicines and I'm on none, so I told him to water the mature trees instead.  I also add slugs, grubs and any other pests to the piss bucket to drown.  I figure it helps to eliminate the problem and adds a bit more nutrients to the soil as well.
 
gardener
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In general, placing your urine on the drip line of the plant is most useful. That is where the roots are most actively growing.  Water on the plant can encourage more mildew.

I agree with the excellently named John Wolfram (tungsten?) that paw paws seem to need more nitrogen.  I didn't read this somewhere else. I am empirically noting this after having grown them for decades.

If you look closely, you can see that some plants are more yellow than others. This is often an indicator of lack of nitrogen.  I direct my urine toward their drip lines.  As I continue, I notice that they green up and I spread the wealth elsewhere, such as on my biochar.

I have noticed that pears on quince rootstock, which would be most of the pear trees that you see in a nursery, tend to need more nitrogen than other trees.

It is the only fertilizer that I use in my food forest.  I do use oyster shells and clam shells when I gather them.  I also use compost, which I consider to be a soil amendment, not a fertilizer.

John S
PDX OR
 
Josh Golden
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By drip line do you mean the base stem?
 
Josh Golden
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Michelle Heath wrote:This is my first year of adding urine to the garden. I do dilute it but my formula is two urinations per 2-gallon bucket and fill with rain water or sometimes murky pond water.  It's really helped the plants in my new beds and I add any extra to the compost pile.  I constantly find myself not drinking enough this time of the year as I get busy and don't think about it so my urine isn't as diluted as it should be.  My husband has offered his urine as well but he's on at least eleven different medicines and I'm on none, so I told him to water the mature trees instead.  I also add slugs, grubs and any other pests to the piss bucket to drown.  I figure it helps to eliminate the problem and adds a bit more nutrients to the soil as well.




As long as he puts his piss in far off soil or a young compost pile, most all medications will be gone in a few months..
 
John Suavecito
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The drip line of say, a tree, is usually a circle on the ground that is just below the farthest reaches of the leaves all the way around the tree. It is where the rain dripping down the leaves starting at the top would finally fall straight down, hence the name "drip line".
John S
PDX OR
 
Josh Golden
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I c thanks..
 
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Piss is my friend. I don't like the idea of dumping it on my lettuce though. I woudn't eat at somebody who does that.
I have lots of spreading comfrey(not a seeding kind!!!) growing which uses a lot of it. I use the comfrey to mulch and feed the bees and the soil etc. I feed on drip lines more or less, or just throw it diluted on the grass.
In summer when the compost pile is drying, i shade it by plant waste material, dumping urine on top of that woody debris makes it is eaten quicker by fungi i noticed. Spreading it all over makes it that i can say i think i never give toooo much, and it keeps the cats of neighborhood on their toes in my garden.
Kampa-Khazi-Goodness.jpg
[Thumbnail for Kampa-Khazi-Goodness.jpg]
 
Josh Golden
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Hugo Morvan wrote:Piss is my friend. I don't like the idea of dumping it on my lettuce though. I woudn't eat at somebody who does that.
I have lots of spreading comfrey(not a seeding kind!!!) growing which uses a lot of it. I use the comfrey to mulch and feed the bees and the soil etc. I feed on drip lines more or less, or just throw it diluted on the grass.
In summer when the compost pile is drying, i shade it by plant waste material, dumping urine on top of that woody debris makes it is eaten quicker by fungi i noticed. Spreading it all over makes it that i can say i think i never give toooo much, and it keeps the cats of neighborhood on their toes in my garden.



Yeah I think I'm less weary of using human wastes for fertilizer than most, but yeah never ever directly on food lol. And preferably always composted first.. It's just not always possible, and with the world looking so bad and me not feeling good, gota do what ya gota do...  Has anyone seen anything about bio mining phosphorus and potassium from sewers? We are running out of them fast...  Then again, that's a concern for mostly non permaculture methods, but even we often need some to get a system going..
 
Hugo Morvan
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Getting used to unusual ideas take time, astronauts recycle their own bodily fluids. Some people get a kick out of sex with it too. Maybe one day we will have to bio mine sewers for potash, i prefer to use the ashes of my woodstove in moderation. Phosphourous is in animal waste and in plants and insects and if the soil is healthy, mycellium will access it and move it towards the plants in exchange for sugars. I try to build soils using the wood chips of nitrogen fixing, fast growing trees. I am very lucky to have access to these and be healthy and energetic enough to transport these.
I am sorry to hear your situation is not good in regard to health Josh. I am totally aware of the systemical collapse, ecological collapse, spiritual collapse even. But Permies is hardly the forum to discuss these matters. Here people try to focus on finding solutions.
Recycling sewage will always be too energy intensive, because people take some weird medicine and hormones and heavy metals etc, better let it sit and let nature take care of the nasties in there before tapping into that.
Despite the dire state of the earth i am thankful  and aware that modern technology has offered us the possibility to communicate and develop a working natural system as for most of human history people who wanted to change things felt totally isolated and were dependent on old wife tales and neighbors who didn't have best intentions at heart. Look at us communicating piss with strangers and making sense and moving forward, educating each other. This has never been possible and we are all working together towards progress.
Isn't there someone around who could help by bringing wood chips or old straw bales, or are you in a desert like situation?
 
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