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The RMH Builders guide build-pic heavy

 
pollinator
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Thanks Caleb and Thomas.  I could point all the ways my clean out tool is crude, but I was taught at school it's probably best to just say, "Thank you".  ;)  As for how much one would be, I don't really know.  First, I'd have to look into the policy of selling here through the forums.  It seems like I saw some primer on it, but haven't read it yet.  Then more importantly I'd need to figure out if there's really enough interest to make it worth while to refine the production techniques, establish the cost of materials, and see if the price they would need to be falls in the range of reasonable.  Given the great suggestions of easy ways to make a tool to do the job, I'm guessing the numbers wouldn't really work out just yet.  As RMH continue to catch on and gain more popularity I can completely see this being a business for someone.
 
Posts: 37
Location: Australia Zone 10a
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Mark Tudor wrote:One tip I recently read was to make sure the surface is actually comfortable to sit on, which is rarely a flat surface that meets the wall at 90 degrees. Instead they suggest that there be a slight slope down as you go back, about 5 degrees, so your butt is a little lower, and then have the angle from seat to back rest be greater than 90 degrees, more around 100-110 degrees. If you aim for 17" high, test that with a chair to be sure your feet can sit flat on the floor and your legs don't have a gap under them. You also want the bottom of the bench to be several inches further in (closer to the wall) than at the top, so you can scoot your heels in to aid in standing up.

I've really enjoyed watching your progress, mentally building my own vicariously through you!




Here is a link to all the calculations etc of chair/seat design. It's very useful.
https://www.core77.com/posts/43422/Reference-Common-Dimensions-Angles-and-Heights-for-Seating-Designers

 
Posts: 25
Location: Southaven, Mississippi
trees wood heat writing
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Hello all, first time poster and new to permies and  RMH's. This was a very informative thread and I just sat down and read the entire thing from start to finish. I've been researching RMH's for a few weeks now and I find that most folks use a 55-gallon barrel for their, manifold is it? Why is that? I would think that brick would be longer lasting than metal. Although the metal would give a more instantaneous heat right off the bat, but with a brick manifold, I would think it would retain heat longer and give it off at a more controlled rate and last longer throughout the day and night. What are the pros and cons of metal verses a brick manifold? Forgive me for high jacking your thread sir, but there seems to be a little lull in the action and in the interim, perhaps someone could set me straight on this query. Thanks, Bill.
 
Dan Hatfield Ii
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William LeMieux wrote:Hello all, first time poster and new to permies and  RMH's. This was a very informative thread and I just sat down and read the entire thing from start to finish. I've been researching RMH's for a few weeks now and I find that most folks use a 55-gallon barrel for their, manifold is it? Why is that? I would think that brick would be longer lasting than metal. Although the metal would give a more instantaneous heat right off the bat, but with a brick manifold, I would think it would retain heat longer and give it off at a more controlled rate and last longer throughout the day and night. What are the pros and cons of metal verses a brick manifold? Forgive me for high jacking your thread sir, but there seems to be a little lull in the action and in the interim, perhaps someone could set me straight on this query. Thanks, Bill.



Welcome, Bill,

This manifold has been traditionally made from brick. Using a half barrel (is a fairly recent change) and has helped people to understand the manifold space better and makes the build easier. The gasses in the manifold are relatively cool so longevity of the material is not really a concern. The manifold will be covered in cob which will give it a very similar mass (or better) than clay brick.
There are some good discussions in some of the permies podcasts and also 2 manifold builds are covered in the second series of RMH dvds.
Here are links to all the RMH dense podcasts.

http://permaculture-podcast.com/Podcast/2011/wheaton-permaculture-019-rocket-mass-heaters.mp3
http://permaculture-podcast.com/Podcast/2012/wheaton-permaculture-104-rocket-mass-heaters-with-ernie-and-erica.mp3
http://ia800305.us.archive.org/23/items/WheatonPermaculture196RocketMassHeatersWErnieErica/wheaton-permaculture-196-rocket-mass-heaters.mp3]http://ia800305.us.archive.org/23/items/WheatonPermaculture196RocketMassHeatersWErnieErica/wheaton-permaculture-196-rocket-mass-heaters.mp3
http://ia600703.us.archive.org/2/items/WheatonPermaculturePodcast225RocketMassHeaterWorkshopPart1/wheaton-permaculture-225-RMH_Workshop_Part_1.mp3


http://ia600307.us.archive.org/7/items/WheatonPermaculturePodcast226RocketMassHeaterWorkshopPart2/wheaton-permaculture-226-RMH_Workshop_Part_2.mp3

http://permaculture-podcast.com/Podcast/2013/wheaton-permaculture-241-rocket-stoves-efficiency.mp3


http://ia800700.us.archive.org/20/items/WheatonPermaculture178LivestockGuardiansAndRocketMassHeaters/wheaton-permaculture-178-livestock-guardians-and-rocket-mass-heaters.mp3
http://permaculture-podcast.com/Podcast/2013/wheaton-permaculture-271-shippable-core-update.mp3

http://permaculture-podcast.com/Podcast/2013/wheaton-permaculture-268-rocket-stoves-update-part-2.mp3

http://permaculture-podcast.com/Podcast/2013/wheaton-permaculture-267-rocket-stoves-update-part-1.mp3

http://permaculture-podcast.com/Podcast/2013/wheaton-permaculture-266-shippable-core.mp3


http://permaculture-podcast.com/Podcast/2013/wheaton-permaculture-265-update-part-3.mp3

http://permaculture-podcast.com/Podcast/2013/wheaton-permaculture-264-update-part-2.mp3


http://www.permaculture-podcast.com/Podcast/2013/wheaton-permaculture-263-update-part-1.mp3
http://permaculture-podcast.com/Podcast/2014/wheaton-permaculture-304-Rocket-Mass-Heater-Innovation-Part-1.mp3
http://permaculture-podcast.com/Podcast/2014/wheaton-permaculture-305-Rocket-Mass-Heater-Innovation-Part-2.mp3
http://permaculture-podcast.com/Podcast/2014/wheaton-permaculture-306-Rocket-Mass-Heater-Innovation-Part-3.mp3


http://permaculture-podcast.com/Podcast/2015/wheaton-permaculture-316-more-rocket-mass-heaters-part-2.mp3
http://permaculture-podcast.com/Podcast/2015/wheaton-permaculture-315-more-rocket-mass-heaters-part-1.mp3

http://permaculture-podcast.com/Podcast/2018/wheaton-permaculture-385-uncle-mud-part-3.mp3
http://permaculture-podcast.com/Podcast/2018/wheaton-permaculture-384-uncle-mud-part-2.mp3
http://permaculture-podcast.com/Podcast/2018/wheaton-permaculture-383-uncle-mud-part-1.mp3


http://permaculture-podcast.com/Podcast/2017/wheaton-permaculture-382-fraction-cord-part-2.mp3
http://permaculture-podcast.com/Podcast/2017/wheaton-permaculture-381-fraction-cord-part-1.mp3
http://permaculture-podcast.com/Podcast/2018/wheaton-permaculture-400-rocket-oven.mp3
http://permaculture-podcast.com/Podcast/2018/wheaton-permaculture-413-the-problem-with-batch-box-rocket-mass-heaters-Part-1.mp3


http://permaculture-podcast.com/Podcast/2018/wheaton-permaculture-414-the-problem-with-batch-box-rocket-mass-heaters-Part-2.mp3

I had a lot of problems trying to get these to show as links (The url button was working on and off) so I'm sorry that you will have to cut and paste into your browser.



Thanks
Dan
 
William LeMieux
Posts: 25
Location: Southaven, Mississippi
trees wood heat writing
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Ok, my bad. Not the manifold but maybe the heat exchanger? I'm new to the lingo so please forgive and bear with me. Whatever it's called, it surrounds the heat riser. I would think that brick could take the super heater air slamming into it better than could a metal barrel, also capturing and retaining the heat instead of immediately radiating it into the room. So I'm curious as to whether the heat riser could be surrounded by brick as opposed to a metal barrel. If there's nothing wrong with doing so I'll start a new thread on the topic. I have many questions.

PS- Thanks for the warm welcome...
 
Posts: 414
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I think people use metal barrels because they want heat faster, and don't want to wait for brick to heat up.
Also it might help the stove get started since it's rapidly shedding heat from the riser so that the draft gets established by cooling the gases and pulling more air into the system.
 
Posts: 291
Location: SW Missouri
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William LeMieux wrote:Ok, my bad. Not the manifold but maybe the heat exchanger? I'm new to the lingo so please forgive and bear with me. Whatever it's called, it surrounds the heat riser. I would think that brick could take the super heater air slamming into it better than could a metal barrel, also capturing and retaining the heat instead of immediately radiating it into the room. So I'm curious as to whether the heat riser could be surrounded by brick as opposed to a metal barrel. If there's nothing wrong with doing so I'll start a new thread on the topic. I have many questions.

PS- Thanks for the warm welcome...



Hello William!  As you suspect,  The heat exchanger can be made of any material.  I made the heat exchanger from a 55 gallon drum for several reasons.  

1)  I'm following step by step from the book because I have no idea what I'm doing

2)  The barrel provides instantaneous heat should you walk into a cold house and need to warm the room up

3) I'm very good at working with metal, and pretty terrible and working with brick.

I fully intend to build a shop heater in the future and intend to make the heat exchanger out of bricks like you suggest, now that I have some experience under my belt.  I do wonder about the top/lid, how that can be made of brick without collapsing.....perhaps maybe just a steel plate sealed to the bricks.
 
William LeMieux
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Thanks all for the replies, and to Mr. Hatfield for the links to the podcasts. I listened to the first one and got the answers to my questions (which was echoed by y'all) and was very informative as well. So with all I have to think about before posting more queries, thank you for allowing the diversion. I now return you to the topic in progress. I eagerly wait for the next portion of your build.
 
Dan Hatfield Ii
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Ps I’m building mine out of brick following Matt walkers brick bell j plans. Search on here for the posts relating to that build and plans.

Thanks
Dan
 
Dan Hatfield Ii
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William LeMieux wrote:Thanks all for the replies, and to Mr. Hatfield for the links to the podcasts. I listened to the first one and got the answers to my questions (which was echoed by y'all) and was very informative as well. So with all I have to think about before posting more queries, thank you for allowing the diversion. I now return you to the topic in progress. I eagerly wait for the next portion of your build.



Also make sure you listen to all those podcasts as there is development over 6+ years. The newer ones have diffrrrnt tech and also people changing their minds on developments and back flipping after using that said tech and it not working.
 
Eric Hammond
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Of course I am behind schedule.  I grossly underestimate the amount of completion time of literally EVERY project I start.  It's hard to get the motivation to mix cob when its 30 degrees outside and dark when you get home.

I should start making a ton more progress after today!  Today is the last day of teaching before Christmas break!

I had to rebuild the wood feed.  All of the bricks got really loose and didn't fit well anymore.  All the clay deteriorated and fell out.  I took it apart and cleaned all the clay out.




I reassembled it with leftover refractory mortar, that if you remember, I used to seal the bottom manifold barrel to the fire brick base (Which DID work perfect for that application)

Looking back now, I wish I would have built the entire thing with refractory mortar, it is expensive, but you really don't need much and it would pretty well glue the whole structure together.  I would NOT use clay slip again for mortar.

The wife wanted me to line the outside with bricks at the bottom, so I laid it out and glued them to the floor with just some super cheap construction adhesive.







I used regular cob that I had been making to fill under the front pipe and even with the brick.  The whole front face I wanted to make "structural cob" with straw, so the front was a well tied together robust surface.  I made the same recipe of cob but added 1 bucket of  CHOPPED straw.  I feel like half a bucket would probably have been better.



Finding a stick that fit in the brick holes,

I poked and prodded and stuffed cob in every orifice and have build up to cover almost all of the piping.  





More pictures to come....


 
pollinator
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Eric Hammond wrote:
I had to rebuild the wood feed.  All of the bricks got really loose and didn't fit well anymore.  All the clay deteriorated and fell out.  I took it apart and cleaned all the clay out.
I reassembled it with leftover refractory mortar, that if you remember, I used to seal the bottom manifold barrel to the fire brick base (Which DID work perfect for that application)
Looking back now, I wish I would have built the entire thing with refractory mortar, it is expensive, but you really don't need much and it would pretty well glue the whole structure together.  I would NOT use clay slip again for mortar.



I've had the same thing happen to me around the feed tube. I think its the bumping of the bricks while adding wood along with not having anything else around them to help stabilize the feed tube is the main culprit. Clay slip is not really meant to be a glue, only a mortar to help even out and level the bricks. Apparently clay slip has been used for a long time through history as a mortar for masonry work but I'll be curious to find out how well the refractory mortar works out for you in these modern times.  
 
gardener
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Make sure to soak the bricks in water prior to adding the clay slip, otherwise it dries out too fast and cracks.
 
pollinator
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Eric Hammond wrote:  It's hard to get the motivation to mix cob when its 30 degrees outside and dark when you get home.



I'm in the same boat! Glad to see you are able to make some progress. Looking great!
 
Posts: 14
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I love your pictures!!! Very helpful. My question is if I have an uneven concrete slab and I want to build a base for the RMH, do I still use the silicone to glue the bricks to the floor? Or what type of material do I use to mortar the bricks together?
4E35A1E4-D63B-4D74-8889-DCBE4F386121.jpeg
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0B70C0AA-F214-4E09-9B49-264649AA4348.jpeg
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gardener
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Hi Diane;
Welcome to the world of rocket science! I have a few questions about your build.
Do you have a copy of the RMH builders guide ?
Is this rmh going to be in a basement?
Is your uneven concrete slab insulated ? If not or your not sure then the best start might be to put down a level insulated base to build your rmh on.
Are you planning an 8" J tube ?  with horizontal mass ? What did you have in mind as your chimney?

 
pollinator
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Diane Maldonado wrote:I love your pictures!!! Very helpful. My question is if I have an uneven concrete slab and I want to build a base for the RMH, do I still use the silicone to glue the bricks to the floor? Or what type of material do I use to mortar the bricks together?


HI Diane,
  Welcome!  I am nearing the end of my first build, no expert by any means.  I did mine on brick floor.  I laid the brick foundation over a bed of clay-stabilized perlite (As recommended in the guidebook).  The bricks were held together with a thin layer of clayslip. (clay and water.  Wet the bricks with water, then dip into clay slip).

Thomas and the others on the this forum are excellent resources and very helpful.
Best of luck!
Staci
 
Eric Hammond
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Diane Maldonado wrote:I love your pictures!!! Very helpful. My question is if I have an uneven concrete slab and I want to build a base for the RMH, do I still use the silicone to glue the bricks to the floor? Or what type of material do I use to mortar the bricks together?



There MUST be clay stabilized perlite under the firebricks.  1 to level the floor, and 2, to keep the burn chamber as hot as possible.
 
Mark Brunnr
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Another option is a thin layer of sand to make a level surface, and then insulated firebrick for the bottom layer of the burn tunnel.
 
Diane Maldonado
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thomas rubino wrote:Hi Diane;
Welcome to the world of rocket science! I have a few questions about your build.
Do you have a copy of the RMH builders guide ?
Is this rmh going to be in a basement?
Is your uneven concrete slab insulated ? If not or your not sure then the best start might be to put down a level insulated base to build your rmh on.
Are you planning an 8" J tube ?  with horizontal mass ? What did you have in mind as your chimney?



Thomas,
Yes I have a copy of Erica and Ernie’s book and read all of it. The RMH is in my living room. The concrete slab has gravel then 6 inches of concrete then sealed. I plan on putting a base under the firebrick of hawthorn clay with perlite. I have an 8 inch  j tube system. The pole barn living quarters is only 600 square feet. I’m using black stove pipe for the chimney. My plans are as follows. It states that I will have a 40 feet horizontal run but it will be closer to 34-35 feet.
1CEA795D-39FE-435A-8306-DE7BA1C1CFF4.jpeg
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Diane Maldonado
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thomas rubino wrote:Hi Diane;
Welcome to the world of rocket science! I have a few questions about your build.
Do you have a copy of the RMH builders guide ?
Is this rmh going to be in a basement?
Is your uneven concrete slab insulated ? If not or your not sure then the best start might be to put down a level insulated base to build your rmh on.
Are you planning an 8" J tube ?  with horizontal mass ? What did you have in mind as your chimney?



I started another thread with my pictures.
https://permies.com/t/93476/RMH-exhaust
 
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Very nice rocket mass heater and splendid presentation.

I have also a plan for building one, it has to be 15 x 15 cm tunnel, and put on a 11 cm chimney, this is not good because the shimney is smaller, and this is not allowed.

To tackle that, I go use a chimney ventilator I am busy to tigg one together, building a fan is much cheaper then buy one, the electronic around I do myself because I am
a electronics man. With a fan I get a virtual bigger chimney, and the starting of the rocket gets much better.

the idea of the rocket you can see on pic. I go build that because here the woodstove smoke of the steel one do disturb mine nabure who do not like the smell, I hope a
rocket will do be smokeless and odorless. In holland we have much people living close together and as such wood burning is a issue here, maybe a roc ket will help the
fine particles from such a stove are also low, and maybe I go build also a electrostat for catching these particles, that can be done very easely in a part of the chimney
where the  flow of gasses are low.

regards

kees
ScreenHunter_1816-Jan.-06-22.40.jpg
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Eric Hammond
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Just a quick update.  My deadline for finishing around thanksgiving has been postponed to thanksgiving 2019.  I'm still plugging away.  Honestly, I absolutely hate making cob at this point.  I will finish, but I despise it currently

I used a ton of cob around the firebricks that was structural with straw in it.  I used this structural cob for the front as well.  I cut the straw with the chop saw in about 2 inch pieces for the most part.  I would grab a handful and cut pretty quickly, throwing it against the closed shop door so I could collect it.




The recipe I found for the best structural cob, 1 bucket hand dug clay with small rocks, 1 bucket sand, mix it up with tons of water to make a soupy mess.  Add 1/4 bucket straw well packed, chopped to 2-4 inches.  Mix thoroughly.  Add in sand a few shovel fulls at a time to thicken the mixture and then apply.  I have never "soaked" any hand dug material and It has all worked great, no cracking, plenty strong.







Here's where I am at today








 
Staci Kopcha
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Eric,
 Looking great!!! Your cob is beautiful- I wish I could have some of that lovely home grown clay.
I feel your pain on the chore of "making cob".  It became SUCH A CHORE, at least for me. (I am so put off, I am wondering if my plaster will ever get done...)
Hang in there. The end is nigh!
 
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This is a great thread ! Thank you so much for your careful documenting & sharing of the build. Would LOVE to see a video of your rocket in full burn - wanna heat that dragon roar ! And what a great score on all those cut-off oak pieces.
 
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