Censoring

Good afternoon. I’ve been silenced twice today and am curious why.

I understand a moderators job and I understand we dont want to be inciting arguments. But I also understand free speech and humans needing to voice opinions…

Are there “bad” words that cant be used outside the cider press or is it more about the direction things are headed regardless of the exact words used? Its a royal pain in the ass to start a conversation, get silenced, figure out why and start a different one in a different forum, so I’d like to avoid all that in the future.

I stated that I distrust various organizations and my thread got locked. I didn’t tell anyone Im right, that they need to conform to my beliefs, that they are less than me for believing differently. I didn’t start an argument. I wasnt rude or threatening. Just wondering how to play by the rules…

You started a shit show and rather than just delete it as per normal, a VOLUNTEER staff member thought it might be worth saving.  So the thread was locked while it was discussed by the moderators.

Then you started another thread after the first one was locked which is hugely disrespectful to the VOLUNTEER moderators who keep this site running.  Not only that, it took time away from sorting out the first thread. If it was up to me, I would just get rid of the whole shit show, but there are staff here that think it might be worth saving.

It's going to take a few more hours/days to sort out your first thread to see if it can be saved.  In the meantime, I'll get you some links to read so you can find out how permies works.  

publishing standards
leaving room for other people's ideas
Science vs science -- and engineering too
but but but but
fact - a four letter word
debate vs sharing
Where did my apples go?  
the cider press
meaningless drivel


Specifically on Censorship
hate in the name of love
censorship
free speech
deleting stuff


One of my all time favourites:

Brody Ekberg wrote:...

But I also understand free speech and humans needing to voice opinions…

…

r ranson already posted links that say this, but I think I can give you an example regarding the part of your post I quoted.  I'm not a moderator, just a member, so this is my own understanding of things and I'm not speaking for Paul or any moderator.

Free speech doesn't apply here.  This is Paul's forum, and he has made it clear that it's his place to discuss the things he likes, and in a way he likes them discussed.  It's easier for me to view it like this.  Just as you wouldn't go to someone's house and put your feet on the coffee table, you can't just walk into Paul's house and make your own rules.  You follow his.  There are certain subjects that, as most people are aware, cause hard feelings and arguments.  Things like religion and politics are very hard to discuss even among close friends or family without causing an argument.  You can imagine how much harder it is on an internet forum with people from all walks of life, different backgrounds, different cultures, different ethnicities, different upbringings.  It's very hard to make someone angry or hurt someone's feelings by asking them if they think egg shells will help your tomatoes grow better, or if hugelculture works better in wet or dry climates.  It's far easier to stick to permaculture subjects on the permaculture forum, and no one gets upset.  That lets us all just enjoy one another's company and be supportive.  I wasn't always good at this, and I still don't always do as well as I like, but you may find that being kind to one another is contagious and it becomes a really pleasant habit.  It's also far more enjoyable to avoid things that hurt other people here, inadvertently or not.

As I said, just one lowly members take on things, so it's worth what you paid for admission :)

The staff discussion on this topic is massive.  With nearly 50 active staff members on permies, plus another few dozen that pop in from time to time to help out, there is a lot to say on this topic.  

I also want to note that every single staff member is 100% volunteer (except Paul Wheaton who pays loads of money to keep the site up and running and if you want to help with the server bills, please buy PIE and give them out to the posts you like best).  

I want to give a huge thank you to every single staff meember who helped with this (both publically and privately, and a big thank you to every single person (staff and member) who help make permies an awesome place to hang out.

The decision was not made alone, but I'm going to be the spokesperson so that the other staff members can get back to doing lovely things.

Looking at the original thread.  A conversation discussing personal experiences recovering from COVID in the Meaningless Drivel forum would be okay.  But even the opening post of that thread had political commentary.  That's not something we choose to publish at this time.

AND STOP.

I have learned from listening to the staff that this is becoming such a politically divided issue, that from one point of view, there is nothing whatsoever inflamitory in the opening statements.  And also I have learnt that it is extremely inflammatory and spoiling from a fight if you are standing 4 feet to the east.   Just about every single post in that thread is failing to leave room for other people's ideas.

Another big criterion is "does publishing that thread further the goals of permies?  Does it infect more brains with permaculture or is it being angry at bad guys?"

Because neither side can see how inflammatory they are being, I feel it's not possible to have the discussion of generalities of covid treatment, on permies, at this time.  However, we are trying out something new that might make it possible.

If a new thread was started and kept on topic about personal experiences, that might be possible.  Although we won't know for certain until we try.

r ranson wrote:

Another big criterion is "does publishing that thread further the goals of permies?  Does it infect more brains with permaculture or is it being angry at bad guys?"

This is important from two perspectives. If a thread is started that is super controversial and lots of posters are being not nice and not leaving room for other's opinions and not being respectful, a bunch of us staff end up spending hours sorting out the mess and coming up with a solution that works. Yes, I volunteered to help keep permies running smoothly, but I did so because I think permies is an awesome, friendly site and because I learn tons of neat stuff here. If I and other staff have to spend all of what little time we have available on helping sort out a big mess, that's time we don't get to spend reading and responding to interesting, helpful threads or answering questions that newer members have. So what may seem like unfair, all caps, bold censoring, may actually be people who care trying to help keep permies a safe and friendly oasis in the middle of a desert called the internet.

Brody,

It's good that you posted your questions about moderation in the tinkering forum.

Raven seems to have set you up with links to help you understand stuff about free speech, censorship, and our publishing standards.



I know nothing about the thread in question, but I do see that the staff have a huge discussion about it.  And I see raven is participating in that discussion, so I feel like it is being handled well.  


Permies.com is a heavily moderated site.  For the few people that like the topics I like and the style of communication I like, they see just a big group of people having really excellent discussion.  They can write a hundred posts and never have a problem.   And, of course, there are other people that can't seem to get even one post to appear - these people think this place is a shit show and quickly leave.  That seems to have worked out great for everybody.

It looks like you have written a lot of posts and have a lot of apples!  So you have a pretty good feel for our community.  I guess you are a pretty natural fit - it took this long until you learned that we even have publishing standards.



I'm here.  Let me know if you have any other questions.  Looks like Raven is taking good care of you.

Trace Oswald wrote:

Brody Ekberg wrote:...

But I also understand free speech and humans needing to voice opinions…

…

r ranson already posted links that say this, but I think I can give you an example regarding the part of your post I quoted.  I'm not a moderator, just a member, so this is my own understanding of things and I'm not speaking for Paul or any moderator.

Free speech doesn't apply here.  This is Paul's forum, and he has made it clear that it's his place to discuss the things he likes, and in a way he likes them discussed.  It's easier for me to view it like this.  Just as you wouldn't go to someone's house and put your feet on the coffee table, you can't just walk into Paul's house and make your own rules.  You follow his.  There are certain subjects that, as most people are aware, cause hard feelings and arguments.  Things like religion and politics are very hard to discuss even among close friends or family without causing an argument.  You can imagine how much harder it is on an internet forum with people from all walks of life, different backgrounds, different cultures, different ethnicities, different upbringings.  It's very hard to make someone angry or hurt someone's feelings by asking them if they think egg shells will help your tomatoes grow better, or if hugelculture works better in wet or dry climates.  It's far easier to stick to permaculture subjects on the permaculture forum, and no one gets upset.  That lets us all just enjoy one another's company and be supportive.  I wasn't always good at this, and I still don't always do as well as I like, but you may find that being kind to one another is contagious and it becomes a really pleasant habit.  It's also far more enjoyable to avoid things that hurt other people here, inadvertently or not.

As I said, just one lowly members take on things, so it's worth what you paid for admission :)

I realized that this is Paul’s party and that he most likely has standards to uphold. I get that and am not complaining about that, I just didn’t realize what I did was not allowed.

As far as “sticking to permaculture subjects” goes… Im not sure what that means. To me, permaculture is a lifestyle, not a gardening technique. I dont know how one can discuss a lifestyle while simultaneously leaving out major parts of their life. I mean, I guess you can do that but its a pretty hollow discussion. And I know we dont want arguing and bickering, but we also have serious, uncomfortable things to work out whether we want to or not. Not saying it has to be done here, but where else? Just the proper forum with the proper wording I guess.

Jay Angler wrote:r ranson wrote:

Another big criterion is "does publishing that thread further the goals of permies?  Does it infect more brains with permaculture or is it being angry at bad guys?"

This is important from two perspectives. If a thread is started that is super controversial and lots of posters are being not nice and not leaving room for other's opinions and not being respectful, a bunch of us staff end up spending hours sorting out the mess and coming up with a solution that works. Yes, I volunteered to help keep permies running smoothly, but I did so because I think permies is an awesome, friendly site and because I learn tons of neat stuff here. If I and other staff have to spend all of what little time we have available on helping sort out a big mess, that's time we don't get to spend reading and responding to interesting, helpful threads or answering questions that newer members have. So what may seem like unfair, all caps, bold censoring, may actually be people who care trying to help keep permies a safe and friendly oasis in the middle of a desert called the internet.

So, obviously if what I said upset people and they made it clear that they were upset, and then we got into a legitimate argument I can see shutting that down. But what if (I admit this may be nearly impossible in todays climate) I voiced my opinion and others heard me out and then responded politely? I know that’s rare now, but it didn’t even have a chance to happen when the thread got locked. And of all places (and I could be ignorant here), I think permies is a place where people can be open minded and have discussions of varying opinions. Although, I’m not a moderator so maybe you all disagree and think this is just as messy as mainstream social media.

r ranson wrote:You started a shit show and rather than just delete it as per normal, a VOLUNTEER staff member thought it might be worth saving.  So the thread was locked while it was discussed by the moderators.

Then you started another thread after the first one was locked which is hugely disrespectful to the VOLUNTEER moderators who keep this site running.  Not only that, it took time away from sorting out the first thread. If it was up to me, I would just get rid of the whole shit show, but there are staff here that think it might be worth saving.

It's going to take a few more hours/days to sort out your first thread to see if it can be saved.  In the meantime, I'll get you some links to read so you can find out how permies works.  

A shit show? I feel like a shit show is what could have resulted if left unattended for long periods of time. I stated how I felt. I didn’t say I was right or anyone else was wrong.

I was actually bummed that anyone recommended getting the vaccine in the original thread because that was not the intention of the discussion. Maybe I should have made that clear when originally posting by saying “this is not a vaccine conversation”, but I guess I left that door open. And when someone told me their opinion to “get vaccinated” I responded with my own opinion. Maybe thats where my second mistake was (first being in the wrong forum), maybe I should have guided that person back on track of the conversation by reminding them it was not a vaccine conversation.

As far as my “hugely disrespectful” act of trying to figure out why I was silenced, I’m sorry. When I spent 10 minutes typing out a careful response and then find out I cant post it because the thread is locked, my first thought was wow, permies is like Twitter and nobody can voice an opinion anymore. Then I doubted myself and thought, you know, this is an important conversation and I dont think it can happen anywhere else, at least not that I know of. Im not being disrespectful or rude and am genuinely trying to learn others experience so we can grow together. I’ll start a new thread to help facilitate that.

Also, if I would have gotten a warning, or an explanation somewhere somehow, I would have complied. Since I had no warnings and no explanation, I didn’t know what I did wrong or how to avoid getting locked again. And I figured what do I have to lose? If it turned out that one cant voice an opinion here just like other social media, then I leave. Whatever.

If I have a bunch of free time, I’ll check out some of the links you provided to try to decipher what is allowed and where and why. I guess what would be nice in the future is an explanation sent. Or a warning. If that many people are really aware of and discussing the thread, couldn’t someone have emailed me and said “hey look, good topic but wrong forum. Sorry but we’re going to lock it.” Or “hey, this is in the wrong place so we will move it for you.” Or “hey, please delete this post and put it in the right forum or we will lock it.” Anything would have been nice.

paul wheaton wrote:Brody,

It's good that you posted your questions about moderation in the tinkering forum.

Raven seems to have set you up with links to help you understand stuff about free speech, censorship, and our publishing standards.



I know nothing about the thread in question, but I do see that the staff have a huge discussion about it.  And I see raven is participating in that discussion, so I feel like it is being handled well.  


Permies.com is a heavily moderated site.  For the few people that like the topics I like and the style of communication I like, they see just a big group of people having really excellent discussion.  They can write a hundred posts and never have a problem.   And, of course, there are other people that can't seem to get even one post to appear - these people think this place is a shit show and quickly leave.  That seems to have worked out great for everybody.

It looks like you have written a lot of posts and have a lot of apples!  So you have a pretty good feel for our community.  I guess you are a pretty natural fit - it took this long until you learned that we even have publishing standards.



I'm here.  Let me know if you have any other questions.  Looks like Raven is taking good care of you.

Paul, I appreciate the response. I actually had to google search “permies tinkering with site” to find the forum because I couldn’t find it anywhere in the normal forum layout.

I do feel that I fit in with the community and love and highly value my experience here. I think this is the place to have difficult discussions. And I understand that those discussions have their proper place. I didn’t intend on getting into vaccine territory or even discussing opinions, but it happened… go figure.

I will try to find the time to look into the links provided and figure out the appropriate way to participate in these discussions without being censored.

Brody, you weren't the only participant in that thread.  The thread was taken as a whole and just about every single post had problems.

Can you see how strongly you are feeling about the topic right now?  Others feel as strong or stronger.  When emotions are high, people aren't as careful with their words as they are in more mundane topics like how to grow fava beans.    Moderators are people too and they also have strong feelings on this topic.  It's just not a conversation we can have on this site at this time.

If we had 20 fully trained and fully paid moderators, we could probably handle a topic like that.  But we don't.  We have a group of people who love permaculture and who are doing the best they can with the limited training we get.  For free.  Because we want to build a nice corner of the internet where we can talk about fava beans and building cool warm rocket heaters without all the shitstorm politics getting in the way.


This isn't about you.  It's about the topic.  Covid has made a mess of our lives.  Covid is the shitstorm.  Talking about covid treatments in permies, especially alternative ones, is going to make for one fucked up thread no matter who started the first post.  

r ranson wrote:
The decision was not made alone, but I'm going to be the spokesperson so that the other staff members can get back to doing lovely things.

Looking at the original thread.  A conversation discussing personal experiences recovering from COVID in the Meaningless Drivel forum would be okay.  But even the opening post of that thread had political commentary.  That's not something we choose to publish at this time.

AND STOP.

I have learned from listening to the staff that this i

If a new thread was started and kept on topic about personal experiences, that might be possible.  Although we won't know for certain until we try.

What exactly did I say in the original post that was “political”? I cant even find it now.

As for posting in the meaningless drivel forum, I dont consider this topic to be meaningless really, unless life and freedom are meaningless, so I wouldn’t even consider posting it in that forum. Then again, I dont know that forum’s purpose, and so maybe that’s something I should take the time to learn.

I will gladly start a new topic, in the forum of your choosing, and do my absolute best to keep myself on track as well as make it clear to everyone else that if they veer off course that it will get shut down.

Brody Ekberg wrote:
So, obviously if what I said upset people and they made it clear that they were upset,  

I'm very glad you see that.  People were upset.

Brody Ekberg wrote: But what if (I admit this may be nearly impossible in todays climate) I voiced my opinion and others heard me out and then responded politely?  

This is why the thread was left up for so long.  To see if it could happen.  It didn't.  

When we moderate, we don't just moderate argumentative posts.  If someone posts an aggressive post, we look up thread and see what triggered it.  Over the years we see there are patterns and that specific triggers will cause specific kinds of replies.  The first post in that thread contained many triggers.

The thing about triggers is they look completely innocent to the writer, but to the reader, they are a call to war.  

Brody Ekberg wrote:If I have a bunch of free time, I’ll check out some of the links you provided to try to decipher what is allowed and where and why. I guess what would be nice in the future is an explanation sent. Or a warning. If that many people are really aware of and discussing the thread, couldn’t someone have emailed me and said “hey look, good topic but wrong forum. Sorry but we’re going to lock it.” Or “hey, this is in the wrong place so we will move it for you.” Or “hey, please delete this post and put it in the right forum or we will lock it.” Anything would have been nice.

Reading the links would be a huge help to you.  

They answer the questions you have in Paul's own words.  He's a far better wordsmith than I.  

Brody,
I think it is clear that it was not what you said on the first thread (or elsewhere) that was the problem, it is the ramifications of high feelings and also web wide scrutiny that may affect Permies site.
James Freyr has set up a private forum which may make it possible to discuss this issue as you wanted: see https://permies.com/forums/posts/read/167215
There is a part of Permies that is accessible only to staff and by invitation so will not have the same issues as the public forum pages.

Brody Ekberg wrote:

I will gladly start a new topic, in the forum of your choosing, and do my absolute best to keep myself on track as well as make it clear to everyone else that if they veer off course that it will get shut down.

Wouldn't it be easier to just accept the gentle prodding everyone is trying to give you and not talk about covid?

r ranson wrote:
This isn't about you.  It's about the topic.  Covid has made a mess of our lives.  Covid is the shitstorm.  Talking about covid treatments in permies, especially alternative ones, is going to make for one fucked up thread no matter who started the first post.  

Thank you, this is the explanation I was looking for.

Now my question is, if we cant have public discussions about alternative covid treatment on this platform, where can we? Mainstream social media is a war. But if we just dont have the conversation, then we are left with whatever mandates and government orders that come down the pipe, and a bunch of people with unanswered questions, concerns that haven’t been validated, and perspectives that haven’t been shared.

Im not saying permies is the place this has to happen. And if it is the place, im not saying its all on the moderators to keep it in check. What I am saying is, how do we have these conversations and where? We certainly cant wait for the climate to change because that likely wont happen. Even if it does, these topics are of concern now, not later. I really think people should be able to say absolutely anything. Anything at all. Even if its absurd. Even if it’s nonsensical. Silencing them doesn’t help anything. What needs to happen is calm, civil conversations between open minded people who dont take their beliefs so personally. I worry that soon, all of us who are capable of having the conversation politely will not have a place to do it.

Nancy Reading wrote:Brody,
I think it is clear that it was not what you said on the first thread (or elsewhere) that was the problem, it is the ramifications of high feelings and also web wide scrutiny that may affect Permies site.
James Freyr has set up a private forum which may make it possible to discuss this issue as you wanted: see https://permies.com/forums/posts/read/167215
There is a part of Permies that is accessible only to staff and by invitation so will not have the same issues as the public forum pages.

Thank you Nancy, I will most definitely get involved there!

Trace Oswald wrote:

Brody Ekberg wrote:

I will gladly start a new topic, in the forum of your choosing, and do my absolute best to keep myself on track as well as make it clear to everyone else that if they veer off course that it will get shut down.

Wouldn't it be easier to just accept the gentle prodding everyone is trying to give you and not talk about covid?

Easier? Yea for sure. Productive, useful, wise or beneficial to society or permaculture in any way? No I dont think so.

I dont see this as being an issue about covid or vaccines. I see this being an issue of free speech and people having control of their reactions. Avoiding uncomfortable of difficult or touchy topics doesnt do any good. Just like avoiding difficult situations in life doesnt make them go away. You have to find a way to deal with it in an appropriate manner. We need to find a way to have these conversations in an appropriate manner.

I’ll paraphrase Joe Rogan because I think he nailed it, but I don’t remember his exact quote. It was something along the lines of “the way you combat bad speech is better speech, not censoring.”

I have honest questions that I’d like actual answers to. No opinions involved. We should be able to have those conversations without getting our feelings involved.

I haven't read all the previous comments, and I don't know the situation or the threads in question at all, so forgive me here.  Basically, I know this thread is none of my business.  But for some reason I feel like I am supposed to share my own feelings and recent reflections from my personal experience of being moderated in the past.  I'm going to hop over to the purple side of the spectrum, if you'll give me one moment here...*hop*

In retrospect, here is what I think I felt when I was moderated:

Shock

My post/thread just got moderated?  What just happened?  Am I causing a problem?  I didn’t mean to cause anyone frustration.  I thought I was doing everything right abiding by the forum's rules.  Did I do something wrong?  This doesn’t make sense.  I need more information.

Defensiveness

Surely I did everything right.  Other individuals are simply misunderstanding me.  Perhaps I will plead my case.  Logic will prevail.  More analysis is needed, and understanding will result after proper, respectful communication.  Maybe I will try communicating again in a different way.

Rejection

To date, I have looked up to and enjoyed participating in this online community.  I respect it and its staff, and have always felt like I belong here, and can trust other members.  But others replied antagonistically, and they escalated things after I simply posted my honest opinions.  They didn’t understand my intentions or comments.  Even worse, when volunteer staff whom I respect commented and moderated, I felt as though I don’t belong here.  I know others in the community agree with my opinion and comments, but I still feel... rejected and a little isolated.  Maybe I don’t really belong here after all?  Maybe I need some time away to sort things out?

Understanding

I am wise enough to put myself in other’s shoes, and I admit, I could have said things slightly differently.  I may not agree with other’s comments or decisions, but that's okay, because those comments and decisions are not mine to make.  I will continue to do my best to see from other’s vantage points, feel their feelings, and think through their thoughts, even though I will often disagree.  Of course, it is impossible for me to fully understand another’s thoughts, motivations, feelings, and worldview, and it is impossible for them to understand mine.  Agreement is not required.  I can move on.

Respect

Although it feels that others may not have fairly respected me or my views, it’s okay in the end, nobody owes me anything.  I can do better, regardless.  I know who I am, and I know what I believe to be true.  I am going to take a step back, to respect myself, my thoughts, my feelings, but also to reflect on my empathy and ability to understand others, as best as I can.  When I return, I am not going to sacrifice my beliefs, but I will be more strategic.  Whether or not I “belong here” or have found my tribe, doesn’t matter.  I have to admit, this place is pretty unique regardless.  I respect the work that’s being done, including the work that I will do here in the future, and the things I will learn, so it is worth sticking around for now.

*hops back*

Basically, in retrospect, it appears I went through a very quick, very miniscule 'grief' cycle.  A near textbook S.A.R.A.H. model, if you will.  I'd be willing to bet others coming back from the cider press go through this mini-grief process, too.  Might help everyone to consider that.

So it took me a little bit of time to reflect, but in the end I realized it is less about the merit of the cider press topics and comments -- which are some of the most important things in the world -- but rather it is more about the 'feels'.  I needed some time to take a step back, stop squeezing, and enjoy the juice for a moment before I finally realized that.

r ranson wrote:publishing standards
leaving room for other people's ideas
Science vs science -- and engineering too
but but but but
fact - a four letter word
debate vs sharing
Where did my apples go?  
the cider press
meaningless drivel


Specifically on Censorship
hate in the name of love
censorship
free speech
deleting stuff


One of my all time favourites:

Ok, I glanced at most of those links. I feel like I’m having a minor revelation here.

I’ve taken a firearm safety course. I know how to handle a gun, what not to do, what is dangerous and what is unacceptable. I have not taken a speech safety course (go figure). I’m realizing now that people take words as seriously as guns. I feel like in todays world, offending someone by using a word that was chosen quickly without too much consideration is on par with pointing a loaded gun at their head.

Im also (now) aware of Pauls standards and how posting in permies is far different than having a verbal conversation face to face with someone. I realize that not everything can be posted here, but also, where else can you find hippies and lawyers, doctors and herbalists, republicans and democrats, from all around the world, all working towards a common goal? I really hope that people (not you moderators, but society at large) can dis identify with their perspectives soon, because we really need to be able to have debates and honest discussions without blaming, guilting and name calling. Silencing people is never the answer, unless in this case you’re literally doing what Paul wants because thats your job. But overall, we need to stop being so attached to our beliefs and opinions and be open to discussing them from an open minded place.  

George Yacus wrote:
In retrospect, here is what I think I felt when I was moderated:

Shock

My post/thread just got moderated?  What just happened?  Am I causing a problem?  I didn’t mean to cause anyone frustration.  I thought I was doing everything right abiding by the forum's rules.  Did I do something wrong?  This doesn’t make sense.  I need more information.

Defensiveness

Surely I did everything right.  Other individuals are simply misunderstanding me.  Perhaps I will plead my case.  Logic will prevail.  More analysis is needed, and understanding will result after proper, respectful communication.  Maybe I will try communicating again in a different way.

Rejection

To date, I have looked up to and enjoyed participating in this online community.  I respect it and its staff, and have always felt like I belong here, and can trust other members.  But others replied antagonistically, and they escalated things after I simply posted my honest opinions.  They didn’t understand my intentions or comments.  Even worse, when volunteer staff whom I respect commented and moderated, I felt as though I don’t belong here.  I know others in the community agree with my opinion and comments, but I still feel... rejected and a little isolated.  Maybe I don’t really belong here after all?  Maybe I need some time away to sort things out?

Understanding

I am wise enough to put myself in other’s shoes, and I admit, I could have said things slightly differently.  I may not agree with other’s comments or decisions, but that's okay, because those comments and decisions are not mine to make.  I will continue to do my best to see from other’s vantage points, feel their feelings, and think through their thoughts, even though I will often disagree.  Of course, it is impossible for me to fully understand another’s thoughts, motivations, feelings, and worldview, and it is impossible for them to understand mine.  Agreement is not required.  I can move on.

Respect

Although it feels that others may not have fairly respected me or my views, it’s okay in the end, nobody owes me anything.  I can do better, regardless.  I know who I am, and I know what I believe to be true.  I am going to take a step back, to respect myself, my thoughts, my feelings, but also to reflect on my empathy and ability to understand others, as best as I can.  When I return, I am not going to sacrifice my beliefs, but I will be more strategic.  Whether or not I “belong here” or have found my tribe, doesn’t matter.  I have to admit, this place is pretty unique regardless.  I respect the work that’s being done, including the work that I will do here in the future, and the things I will learn, so it is worth sticking around for now.

Nailed it! First I was shocked, then I felt like this site was a sham like twitter and got angry, then I felt like I lost my community. Now I’ve tried to see things from Paul and his moderators perspectives and I understand. And even if I disagree, I now realize that that is irrelevant here as things are run a certain way. I definitely have respect for what Paul has created and definitely respect what the moderators do, even though I probably barely even have a clue overall.

Still love Permies and I’m not leaving. I have realized that, even though I personally dont take words too seriously many people do. Many people are like loaded guns with a hair trigger and all it takes is a stiff wind and that gun is firing. Our words are like wind, and we ought to keep those hair triggered loaded guns in mind while we blow our words around.

Brody Ekberg wrote:

I’ve taken a firearm safety course. I know how to handle a gun, what not to do, what is dangerous and what is unacceptable. I have not taken a speech safety course (go figure). I’m realizing now that people take words as seriously as guns. I feel like in todays world, offending someone by using a word that was chosen quickly without too much consideration is on par with pointing a loaded gun at their head.

This is a good analogy. I think many people would benefit from a "speech safety course", but maybe even more a "writing safety course" because when actually talking to someone face to face, you get some immediate feedback that you've said something in a hurtful or controversial way, that often doesn't happen as quickly with the written word.

In fact there are courses available in communicating with empathy and respect such as what's described in this link; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication
I've read at least one of the books, but it takes a lot of time, patience and practice to do it well. The first step is being aware and realizing that as hard as this process may have been from your perspective, we have not rejected you, or your needs.  From my perspective, you are welcome to keep learning here! There's *is* more to learn here at permies than how to garden!

Brody Ekberg wrote: But I also understand free speech and humans needing to voice opinions.

Does that mean, you understand that free speach means you can say whatever you want,
but you cannot force someone to publich your opinion?
If so we have the same understanding.

Also as far as i understood the decision wheter to put an topic into ciderpress is whether it could cause a fist fight in a bar or not.

I have a probably crazy or bad suggestion... but, it seems most everyone ends up in the doghouse every now and then.  Paul and the admins have their standards and policies.  We do the same over at The Grow Network, when I am an admin.   Sometimes, people are jerks...  Other times, well meaning people get hurt feelings.   Recently, I have been checking out some permaculture groups on MeWe and Gab.  There are not very active.  Both platforms are no censorship... often to their detriment.  But, sometimes it is actually cool.  Why not pick one and tell people, something like "Our policies do not allow ______" or whatever "but we welcome you to move this conversation to _______ group.".... no affiliation, no worries.  It could be a pressure release valve.  An who knows what could come of it?

Judson Carroll wrote:I have a probably crazy or bad suggestion... but, it seems most everyone ends up in the doghouse every now and then.  Paul and the admins have their standards and policies.  We do the same over at The Grow Network, when I am an admin.   Sometimes, people are jerks...  Other times, well meaning people get hurt feelings.   Recently, I have been checking out some permaculture groups on MeWe and Gab.  There are not very active.  Both platforms are no censorship... often to their detriment.  But, sometimes it is actually cool.  Why not pick one and tell people, something like "Our policies do not allow ______" or whatever "but we welcome you to move this conversation to _______ group.".... no affiliation, no worries.  It could be a pressure release valve.  An who knows what could come of it?

Personally, it's because I'd rather help people learn to have more civil discourse. I believe it's something that can be modelled, taught and learned and that skills learned here on permies will percolate out into the world, just as if my neighbor sees me following a permaculture approach to planting, asks about it, and then follows my example to the benefit of our soil, our environment, and our lives.

R. Han wrote:

Brody Ekberg wrote: But I also understand free speech and humans needing to voice opinions.

Does that mean, you understand that free speach means you can say whatever you want,
but you cannot force someone to publich your opinion?
If so we have the same understanding.

Also as far as i understood the decision wheter to put an topic into ciderpress is whether it could cause a fist fight in a bar or not.

Yes we have the same understanding.

Jay Angler wrote: Personally, it's because I'd rather help people learn to have more civil discourse. I believe it's something that can be modelled, taught and learned and that skills learned here on permies will percolate out into the world, just as if my neighbor sees me following a permaculture approach to planting, asks about it, and then follows my example to the benefit of our soil, our environment, and our lives.

Yes! Honestly, I feel that this is the actual issue we are facing right now. Its not a political issue, not a virus issue, not a vaccine issue. Its an issue of communication. A lack of civil discourse. A lack of open mindedness and compassion. A lack of being available to hear “the other side”. I think that it is absolutely crucial that we can tolerate differing opinions and beliefs without getting defensive.

I actually have some hope in that regard as well. I mean, there are a lot of disastrous “conversations” out there both in person and online, but Im also witnessing good conversations. Here at permies is a good example, though clearly the moderators are hard at work and that can’t be ignored. But even on Facebook. Yesterday I got involved in a a very good discussion involving a bunch of people and from both sides of the political and vaccine spectrum, and surprisingly the conversation is going very well. Nobody is being rude or insulting. Everyone seems to be open to hearing eachother and are being respectful. I think a lot has to do with specific word choices and making it very clear when you are stating beliefs/opinions vs when you are taking about what seems to be an objective truth. So, it is possible, we just need it to be more widespread and we need to get better at it, and fast!  

I am on the side of less censoring, though I respect the proprietors’ right to do what they’d like. On the other hand, I am amazed at what inherently political statements get through (antivax etc) when my statements against what i see as unethical trophy hunting of ecologically necessary predators, or the incautious use of fire in a tinderbox time of year get censored. Oh well, it’s not up to me and I know that by now. It does reduce my desire to participate in the forums, but I know that if it were a free for all I wouldn’t be here at all!

And Brody, we’d better be careful about our fall tree order discussion!

Ben Zumeta wrote:And Brody, we’d better be careful about our fall tree order discussion!

That one should be in pretty safe waters right? Maybe you were being sarcastic, but unfortunately sarcasm doesn’t translate well through technology haha.

Brody Ekberg wrote:

Ben Zumeta wrote:And Brody, we’d better be careful about our fall tree order discussion!

That one should be in pretty safe waters right? Maybe you were being sarcastic, but unfortunately sarcasm doesn’t translate well through technology haha.

You may have nailed one aspect of this! How you say something (yes, sarcasm often doesn't translate well - or should that be "no, sarcasm doesn't - language is hard sometimes) is often much more critical than the topic.

A borderline topic may slide by any staff who see it, if it's been said in a polite, flexible, non-confrontational way.

Also, once someone in a thread takes offense, staff tend to put the entire thread under a microscope and posts start to vanish.

Staff and members come from all walks of life, different ages, cultures and backgrounds. Something that sounds completely innocent to you, could be outrageous to someone else. Years ago, an Australian Exchange Student asked my prim and proper neighbor whom she was staying with to , "knock me up in the morning". At the time, those are the words her community used for when Canadians would say, "wake me up in the morning". Getting "knocked up" was not a good thing and would have gotten her sent home right quick!

We all need to try to say things kindly and be prepared to change our wording if there's a problem. Mistakes get made - that's part of learning - but we clean things up and move on.

I hindsight, the majority of my censored posts have to do with my inability to self-censor sarcasm in my writing. I have the same difficulty when I teach. So of course I was being sarcastic Brody! I’ve enjoyed our conversation and don’t get any hint of malice from you.

Ben Zumeta wrote:I hindsight, the majority of my censored posts have to do with my inability to self-censor sarcasm in my writing. I have the same difficulty when I teach. So of course I was being sarcastic Brody! I’ve enjoyed our conversation and don’t get any hint of malice from you.

Keep working on it Ben! I often use the "preview" button so that I get to re-read what I've written in a slightly different format/colour as it gives me a chance to change a word or two in an effort to make my posts sound friendly. I think people are more likely to absorb what I've written if they feel it is coming from a place of friendship and helpfulness, rather than the subtle insult that many sarcastic comments come across with in writing particularly, but even in face to face. The old saying, "you attract more bees with honey than with vinegar" comes to mind.