Censoring

I guess my post should have vanished too. I would not have taken offense. I should have kept my beak shut; it was a no-win scenario.

When fists are flying, and tunnel vision ensues, irony and modest proposals are completely lost (and duck, while another chair flies by).

Please accept my salute, mods.

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:Please accept my salute, mods.

And to encourage you to consider other options if similar happens again - what helps enormously is if someone pushes the "Report" button. You can simply write in the box something like "this thread may be going sideways" as that doesn't point fingers at a particular person but it gets staff involved before things get worse as those chairs start flying in both directions.  Replying to the problem post just makes the mess messier!

We *all* - not just the staff - have a role in keeping permies the nicest place in the whole interweb! (OK, so I'm biased.)

Yes, good advice all around.

Mods, I know it's against your first (and every) inclination, but stomping on a small fire is easier. Lock it up and consult. The people who value this site won't mind.  Better than a dumpster fire.

Edit: I wonder if gir bot could add a "skating on thin ice" notice to a thread, without a mod having to put their name to it.

Thanks Jay. The most difficult thing for me is that in my experience sarcasm and dry humor is how people show affection and imply inclusion to one’s audience in my culture (or circle of family and friends). Maybe the best thing I have learned from interacting on these forums has been to try to use the first person or “I”, rather than the 2nd person “you”. What do I know about what you think or should do? I have a hard enough time deciding what I think or should do.

Ben Zumeta wrote:And Brody, we’d better be careful about our fall tree order discussion!

Ben, when I saw this post, I assume you had a camaraderie with Brody that I would not be aware of so I chose to ignore it until I saw Brody's remark.

Something that I do that might be of value to you is to write something I want to say and then just delete it.  Or write it somewhere then come back later and see if you still want to say it.  Usually after rereading something a 2nd or 3rd time then I either publish it or delete it.

Maybe this technique might help you or some of our other readers.  At least it helps me.

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:Yes, good advice all around.

Mods, I know it's against your first (and every) inclination, but stomping on a small fire is easier. Lock it up and consult. The people who value this site won't mind.  Better than a dumpster fire.

Edit: I wonder if gir bot could add a "skating on thin ice" notice to a thread, without a mod having to put their name to it.

I do agree that some sort of warning would be nice! I mean, I’m aware of political sensitivities and all the loaded-gun-with-hair-trigger sort of people out there, and I’ve read the publishing standards. But, it’s pretty difficult to find a way to express yourself without either offending someone or breaking a rule since a lot of them are sort of subjective and vague to a degree. A little red flag, an email, or some sort of notification that we’re on thin ice or being heavily observed would be good to know!

Ben Zumeta wrote:Maybe the best thing I have learned from interacting on these forums has been to try to use the first person or “I”, rather than the 2nd person “you”. What do I know about what you think or should do? I have a hard enough time deciding what I think or should do.

I’ve noticed the same thing the last few years on social media but also while conversing with my wife.

I can get excited and start “lecturing” my wife about things. In those circumstances, I am by no means telling her anything that she should be taking personally. I’m venting or speaking like I would be to someone with the same perspective as myself. I’ve realized that when I say words like “you, they and them” she usually gets upset like I’m attacking her and she starts to defend herself. I can switch those words to make it seem like I’m talking about myself (I, me, myself) and leave everything else in the conversation the same and she doesn’t react. Even if I feel like it’s obvious that I’m referring to other people in an indirect way, she doesn’t get triggered. Seems insane, but it is what it is.

Also, by making the venting/lecturing/complaining seem like it’s about yourself you can put yourself in the other’s shoes and get a different perspective on things. Usually it involves seeing the problems as a part of yourself instead of a part of the “others”. It’s annoying but probably for the best.

Brody Ekberg wrote:

Ben Zumeta wrote:Maybe the best thing I have learned from interacting on these forums has been to try to use the first person or “I”, rather than the 2nd person “you”. What do I know about what you think or should do? I have a hard enough time deciding what I think or should do.

I’ve noticed the same thing the last few years on social media but also while conversing with my wife.

I can get excited and start “lecturing” my wife about things. In those circumstances, I am by no means telling her anything that she should be taking personally. I’m venting or speaking like I would be to someone with the same perspective as myself. I’ve realized that when I say words like “you, they and them” she usually gets upset like I’m attacking her and she starts to defend herself. I can switch those words to make it seem like I’m talking about myself (I, me, myself) and leave everything else in the conversation the same and she doesn’t react. Even if I feel like it’s obvious that I’m referring to other people in an indirect way, she doesn’t get triggered. Seems insane, but it is what it is.

Also, by making the venting/lecturing/complaining seem like it’s about yourself you can put yourself in the other’s shoes and get a different perspective on things. Usually it involves seeing the problems as a part of yourself instead of a part of the “others”. It’s annoying but probably for the best.

There's an expression, "you can only change yourself" or more accurately, "I can only change myself". There's a whole thread about "shoulding" people and if I find myself telling someone "they should do..." or "they should change..." it's usually a bad sign. (https://permies.com/t/36936)  We very often react to issues in other people, because at least at the unconscious level, we're actually struggling with the same issue, or at least a variation of it, or we're reacting to the situation because of bad similar experiences  in our past that we never took out, examined, and moved past. This is not easy stuff for many of us. It took me years to not get sucked in and overwhelmed by other people's trauma, and I'd have to honestly say, I'm better at it, but by no means completely reliable at it. However, if everyone here on permies does their best to write with kindness and accept other's points of view, I believe it sets an example and helps people to learn kinder ways to communicate and with all the nastiness and divisiveness in the world right now, we need skills to help people listen to each other. Permies is as good a place as anywhere to practice and learn skills like that at the same time as learning how to build a top-notch hugel.

This whole thread reminds me of the lessons I learned from reading Dr. Wayne Dyer's books.

I would highly recommend reading Pulling Your Own String and this one:

https://permies.com/t/92559/Erroneous-Zones-Dr-Wayne-Dyer

You will start to change your thought processes when you understand why you do things, why you feel guilty, why you procrastinate ...

The  thing is no matter who you are or how many self-help books you read,  until you give it a try and start living by these ideas, you will never know what you can accomplish.

You will find how you are actually and truly able to accomplish whatever you want.  You can control your feelings and thoughts.

How something is phrased greatly influences the reaction.

That is the main thing we see when moderating for niceness.

Three really important points

point 1:  everybody on permies.com must be thoroughly punished for the actions of those that came before them

point 2:  most people have no idea what the publishing standards are, and, mysteriously, are never punished.  Somehow, they are a natural fit.

point 3:  if a person writes a ten pound post, and there is a spec near the bottom that is off, the post is rejected.  And when people try to guess at the reason for the rejection, they are almost always wrong.  So then they complain "there is nothing wrong with what I said" paraphrasing the part that was fine and ignoring the part where they called all the other people in the thread a bunch of dumbfucks.  


I think there are a few people that post stuff that doesn't work and the staff tries to use "almost a post" to guide them, only to have the author lose their shit and get hostile.   So, next time, the staff just deletes it.   And then the author says "how dare you delete my golden poetry!  You should at least tell me why!" - but the staff usually don't wanna get all wrapped up in the hostility.  

I guess what such an author needs is therapy.  A service we don't provide.  Or ....   and this is really tough ...   they could read the links that have been provided.  

Some people figure it out and all is smooth.   Others don't - and we have a solution for that too.

It all boils down to the one simple thing everyone agrees to when signing up at permies. Be nice.

Dang, I go offline for a while, and miss an epic show.  

Ben Zumeta wrote:I am on the side of less censoring, though I respect the proprietors’ right to do what they’d like. On the other hand, I am amazed at what inherently political statements get through (antivax etc) when my statements against what i see as unethical trophy hunting of ecologically necessary predators, or the incautious use of fire in a tinderbox time of year get censored. Oh well, it’s not up to me and I know that by now. It does reduce my desire to participate in the forums, but I know that if it were a free for all I wouldn’t be here at all!

I didn't see whatever the original thread was, but I agree with Ben here, and I will add my 2 cents.  

With the exception of personal attacks and direct insults and language, or illegal topics (which should be removed), it is not the responsibility of any author, anywhere ever, to be sure their comments wont be "taken" the "wrong" way, whatever way that is.  Censoring should be an absolute last resort (only to pull inappropriate language/insults), but as for sensitive topics... they just are what they are.  Can't shelter the world from it. Leave it be.

Permies is a highly moderated site.

This might have something to do with why so many people hang out here.

For those who don't like this style,  the rest of the Internet awaits.   There's a style of website for everyone.  If not, you can do what Paul did and make a new website.

Brody Ekberg wrote:

Now my question is, if we cant have public discussions about alternative covid treatment on this platform, where can we? Mainstream social media is a war. But if we just dont have the conversation, then we are left with whatever mandates and government orders that come down the pipe, and a bunch of people with unanswered questions, concerns that haven’t been validated, and perspectives that haven’t been shared.

If you find  the answer, please let me know! I would love to find such a place: like you, a lot of what I read on both sides of the current mess just doesn’t add up, and I would love to discuss the information I find critically, without the yelling.  My feeling is that it cannot happen on the open internet. In an open forum, the combination of strangers you cannot see, who have extreme opinions in all directions will make a mess of it before you even add in the bots and trolls that haunt unmoderated sites. And as for moderating - one thing this last year has taught me is that I am much more tolerant of potentially hurtful statements when I agree with the sentiment they are espousing - not something I am proud of, and I doubt I am alone. Moderating such a conversation is something you could not pay me enough to do.

I think when trying, it is worth considering that some views really can’t be live and let live. In some cases this is obvious - for example, I think most of us would have trouble civilly discussing whether black people should be legally enslaved. These topics just feel beyond the pale, and probably should be - without some ground rules, society could be a lot worse that it is.
By that same token, certain positions on specific issues make it feel morally wrong to allow the opposing view point as having any validity. Abortion, gun rights, global warming, and now covid treatments and vaccines are all issues that fall into this category. I don’t know how to solve this problem, but realizing that while you are trying to have a civil discussion, the other person might hold a view that makes it seem like yours is actually killing people is an important piece of the puzzle.

Anyhow, good luck - I suspect that private forums/groups will be the only way to really discuss these issues. In the mean time, I an incredibly grateful to permies for providing a place where I can come and learn and debate and be entertained without being told that I am killing others for not being vaccinated, or killing others because I am vaccinated, etc etc. because there are plenty of places to get that!

On another note, who would I ask about joining the private thread? I have no desire to argue, but I am always looking for good info on the current situation…

I think you need to find the answer away from google.

Reasons that I don't want to go into.  There are certain things that are not good to publish if one relies on google for most of their traffic.  

Try duckduckgo.

I have not participated very much in any forums, primarily due to my hectic work-life stuff.

Finally, when I get around to checking out permies again, I see this thread revolving around the pros and cons of discussing COVID.

First, let me say that I think the moderators are doing the right thing and doing a fantastic job.

Unfortunately, COVID has become a hot political topic, where it seems too many people think with their emotions, but not their heads (in public at large). This situation is why I think the moderators are doing the right thing. Topics like this could potentially detract from the big picture and the goal of permaculture.

We could view these forums as a "family-community." We shouldn't get upset such that we alienate family members. We're all in this together. We are not each other's enemy.

Isn't it amazing that a germ is naturally doing what germs do, and everyone's political hot bottom is pressed? Maybe the germ will go down in history as the famous Political Germ (PG).  

Anyway, my opinion is that we should probably steer clear of the "politics and philosophy of the germ," except under extenuating circumstances. I don't know what those circumstances would be. But I will leave it up to the moderators to figure that out.

Dan Robinson wrote:
Unfortunately, COVID has become a hot political topic, where it seems too many people think with their emotions, but not their heads (in public at large). This situation is why I think the moderators are doing the right thing. Topics like this could potentially detract from the big picture and the goal of permaculture.

Isnt the big picture of permaculture either a permanent form of agriculture or a permanent form of human culture? One in harmony with eachother and our environment? One in which all of us and everything around is is valued and respected?

For that reason, I think all things should fall into permaculture discussions. I dont know about you, but this isnt like a fun little pastime or hobby for me. This is a way of life I’m trying to work towards not only for my sake and for my environment, but so that my children have a decent life and so that I can MAYBE have grandchildren some day. I enjoy permaculture as an idea, but as a practice, I try to take it pretty seriously. I dont see another way that humans hang around here much longer!

With that in mind, talking about covid, conspiracies, government, religion and philosophy all seem relevant to me. But, this is all just my perspective. And as someone who isnt the creator, owner or even a moderator, I acknowledge that my perspective doesn’t necessitate any changes.

My personal belief is that the inability to discuss covid has exactly zero effect on my permaculture endeavors.  I'm personally very glad to have a forum where I'm not under a constant deluge of covid-talk.  There is plenty of that elsewhere.  This is my safe haven from all of it.  

Ben Zumeta wrote:The most difficult thing for me is that in my experience sarcasm and dry humor is how people show affection and imply inclusion to one’s audience in my culture (or circle of family and friends).

That’s me in a nutshell! I’m only rude to people I like . . . Get’s me into trouble occasionally . . . I thought it was a very British thing and can be summed up in one word banter. On the whole, I’m yet to see it working in a forum. It can work in long blog posts where the audience either knows the person or has read enough of their work to understand the underlying tone. We didn’t evolve with written word. Spoken mistakes made by the now dead branches of the human tree, were pruned with clubs and axes! I’m grateful that we now live in a world of  -1, apple cores and deletes, although the occasional smite wouldn’t be a bad thing! (Yes, that was me finishing with a little bit of text based banter).

Trace Oswald wrote:My personal belief is that the inability to discuss covid has exactly zero effect on my permaculture endeavors.  I'm personally very glad to have a forum where I'm not under a constant deluge of covid-talk.  There is plenty of that elsewhere.  This is my safe haven from all of it.  

I agree

There are plenty of places to talk about covid.  

Permies.com is a website to talk about building rocket ovens and growing gardens and composting and raising happy chickens, and transforming sheep into clothing and cooking dinner, and building houses out of cob, and starting a cottage industry, and alternative energy systems, and passive incomes, and cleaning that stubborn ring around the toilet, and upcycling clothes into shopping bags, and transition town planning, and wildcrafting mushrooms, and spinning yarn, and starting your own youtube channel, and making seed balls, and isn't the way that Fukuoka blends philosophy with farming just the best thing, and where can I take a PDC, and don't forget SKIP and how many people this will help kick in the pants and stop waiting for "getting there" and start practising practical skills.  

If we had a fully trained and fully paid moderation staff we could probably have these difficult conversations.  But as it is, permies is running at a significant loss.  Paul pays the server bills out of pocket and the staff here volunteer out time because we believe the world needs a place to talk about the list above.

This makes me wonder... Long ago there wasn't a permies.  There wasn't a place to safely talk about these topics.  But one bloke stepped up and said "I care enough. I will build a place where people can talk about these things I like."

Maybe that's your solution - rather than worry about how there isn't a place online to publically have the conversations you want.  Maybe you can take some of those free forum hoasting sites and make a place that is safe for you to have those conversations.  

r ranson wrote:Permies.com is a website to talk about building rocket ovens and growing gardens and composting and raising happy chickens, and transforming sheep into clothing and cooking dinner, and building houses out of cob, and starting a cottage industry, and alternative energy systems, and passive incomes, and cleaning that stubborn ring around the toilet, and upcycling clothes into shopping bags, and transition town planning, and wildcrafting mushrooms, and spinning yarn, and starting your own youtube channel, and making seed balls, and isn't the way that Fukuoka blends philosophy with farming just the best thing, and where can I take a PDC, and don't forget SKIP and how many people this will help kick in the pants and stop waiting for "getting there" and start practising practical skills.  

Now that is awesome. I avoided this tread until today and I’m a happier person for reading that. I’ve only been here six weeks, so I may be a little premature by saying, this is by far the friendliest open online community I have found since I lost all my happy places when G+ went off air. There some titanic heroes making it so. This system works else they would have left. In someways, this site is Paul’s permaculture experiment. Some of you are now mighty fruit bearing trees, others providing nitrogen, some doing both. Some are volunteers and others may first appear as invasives but they may have hidden uses. I think of myself as a recently fledged holistic chicken and happy to have found my flock.

r ranson wrote:
This makes me wonder... Long ago there wasn't a permies.  There wasn't a place to safely talk about these topics.  But one bloke stepped up and said "I care enough. I will build a place where people can talk about these things I like."

Maybe that's your solution - rather than worry about how there isn't a place online to publically have the conversations you want.  Maybe you can take some of those free forum hoasting sites and make a place that is safe for you to have those conversations.  

I agree, that would probably be the best option. My issues with creating a forum are:

1. Time. I am, without a doubt, too busy already. I teeter on the brink of burnout all summer long and winter is my main excuse for a break.
2. Technology. I dont get along with it most of the time. Despite all its conveniences, I’d rather be without most of the time.
3. Activity. I cant sit around any more. Im too young, too motivated and have too much energy to play with computers any more than what I already do, which is already too much in my opinion.
4. Urgency. I dont know about you all, but I feel a constant sense of urgency. Urgency to change my ways and help shift society towards sustainability. Using established, well known systems will be much more efficient than taking the time to create the ideal system, get people aware of it, get them proficient at using it and see results. Im sure Paul has invested unimaginable amounts of time into this. This sense of urgency may be a downfall of mine. But its there, I feel it, it makes sense, and I have the body and energy to use that feeling to make waves in the world. If I were old and tired, I’d probably have an easier time ignoring the urgency. But I’m in my prime and ready to do work.

I want to be clear though that I’m not trying to get Paul or Permies to change. I’m simply voicing my perspective. I respect and highly value this website and am very grateful to have stumbled across it. I will continue to participate and here and follow the rules as best as I can. And I will gladly encourage anyone to do the same, or to create their own alternative if that resonates with them.

Brody Ekberg wrote:
... My issues with creating a forum are:

1. Time. I am, without a doubt, too busy already. I teeter on the brink of burnout all summer long and winter is my main excuse for a break.

Time is what you make of it.  The time spent writing about, writing about covid could be spent creating something real and useful - a new subreddit or discord are quick and easy to make.  It's very much looking at your own personal values and taking action.  If it matters to you enough, stop talking about it and start working on the solution.  If you can't do it yourself, team up with some of the others in this thread who say they feel the same.  You each have the power to create the kind of community you say you want.  

The point of this thread is that permies is not the place to talk about these issues.  It's unlikely to become that place any time soon.  Talking about how permies should become that place is starting to get disrespectful of the volunteers who work so very hard to keep this place nice, calm, and focused on practical conversations about building, making, growing, and those topics.  

I’m taking a hint and bailing. If any of you would like to continue this conversation with me, feel free to message me privately or email me, but I’m done participating with this thread. Bye

We are buying some acreage in Texas and would love to help out some of the people who were fired because of refusal of vax mandates.  What better way to get help on the farm in exchange for food and shelter for some of these brave people.

Cydney Robinson wrote:We are buying some acreage in Texas and would love to help out some of the people who were fired because of refusal of vax mandates.  What better way to get help on the farm in exchange for food and shelter for some of these brave people.

Try starting a thread in the relevant regional forum.  
Just remember to keep it within the publishing standards: https://permies.com/t/17422/permies-publishing-standards and respectful of people of all choices on this topic.  

(example, saying that people who refuse are brave, means that people who have a different view are cowards - that wouldn't be considered nice but I'm leaving it up here as an example since this is the tinkering forum).

I just want to say Thank You. Just reading through this thread made me realize how valuable this forum really is. I don't have a lot and times are tight, but reading through all the posts here made me just buy a "slice of pie." I wish it could be more, but behind buying the once piece is a great deal of appreciation. Thank you again, Paul and everyone, for this forum.

Brody Ekberg wrote:

I can get excited and start “lecturing” my wife about things. In those circumstances, I am by no means telling her anything that she should be taking personally. I’m venting or speaking like I would be to someone with the same perspective as myself. I’ve realized that when I say words like “you, they and them” she usually gets upset like I’m attacking her and she starts to defend herself.  

Maybe English needs a totally distinct word for singular 'you'. We already have generic "you" but that isn't enough, obviously because from what you say it can't be distinguished by your wife. I wonder, Brody, as a long time afficionado/studier of language/language science if you explained this distinction to your wife if she would still get upset or if she could recognize the difference. It is certainly hard to change our internal grammar parser as was seen in the extended discussions on same here at Permies.

Terry Byrne wrote:

Brody Ekberg wrote:

I can get excited and start “lecturing” my wife about things. In those circumstances, I am by no means telling her anything that she should be taking personally. I’m venting or speaking like I would be to someone with the same perspective as myself. I’ve realized that when I say words like “you, they and them” she usually gets upset like I’m attacking her and she starts to defend herself.  

Maybe English needs a totally distinct word for singular 'you'. We already have generic "you" but that isn't enough, obviously because from what you say it can't be distinguished by your wife. I wonder, Brody, as a long time afficionado/studier of language/language science if you explained this distinction to your wife if she would still get upset or if she could recognize the difference. It is certainly hard to change our internal grammar parser as was seen in the extended discussions on same here at Permies.

It does help to remind her while I’m talking that this isnt about her. Usually then she can avoid taking it personally. Otherwise if I dont offer that reminder she gets defensive quickly.