• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Carla Burke
  • John F Dean
  • Timothy Norton
  • Nancy Reading
  • r ranson
  • Jay Angler
  • Pearl Sutton
stewards:
  • paul wheaton
  • Tereza Okava
  • Andrés Bernal
master gardeners:
  • Christopher Weeks
gardeners:
  • Jeremy VanGelder
  • M Ljin
  • Matt McSpadden

DIY heating / electric solution for a big house

 
pollinator
Posts: 1495
860
2
trees bike woodworking
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I’m renovating a big 1850’s house.

There’s 1200 sqft of unfinished, basement, four feet of which is below ground level. It doesn’t freeze because it hosts an oil fired boiler and oil fired water heater.
Ground floor is 1200 sqft most of which has 10ft high ceilings.
First floor is also 1200 sqft most of which has 10ft high ceilings.
Then there’s a large half finished attic with staircase which I plan on converting to a bedroom / study with bathroom.

I also have four fireplaces, one is bricked up, one has a metal flue, the other two have been stripped out and chimneys stuffed with insulation.

There’s a 1980’s solar water heater which has been broken for at least 20 years and very little information on the web except confused plumbers wondering if the system they’ve discovered can be fixed - mostly no.

There’s a gas line but no meter or internal pipes.

The house is heated by 12 cast iron steam radiators installed in the late 80’s. The boiler is a 40 year oil powered rust bucket. There’s one thermostat which means all 12 radiators are either on or off. There is no way to turn them off or control them individually - why isn’t this illegal???

Hot water is on 24 / 7 from a big oil fired tank solution in the basement - also, why isn’t this illegal!

I’m in early days of research. Spring has arrived so I have until mid October this year to find an alternative solution to heating the house. This maybe be unrealistic, so I’m prepared to stretch my goal until October next year. The simple solution would be to convert to gas, but I wouldn’t be here if that was what I wanted.

I’d like a Lithium Ion Phosphate battery, solar electric, solar water, geothermal heat pump and use the existing radiators. Everything needs to code compliant and not freak out a prospective buyer in five years time. I’ve started talking to solar companies but that’s currently a dead end - I need 12 months of bills, which I don’t have as a new home owner and the house was empty for three years, so no history. They also say installation is free - they make money selling my excess electricity.

How much of this can I do myself? I know geothermal is out of the question but what about the rest? (One of the voices in my head says - go for it and another is saying, are you mad!)
 
steward
Posts: 15820
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
5007
8
hunting trees books food preservation solar woodworking
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think they made add on doohickeys for radiators that can control the temp in each room.  But I'm not sure.

Could the oil appliances be converted to run on restaurant veggie oil?  Not sure if that's an option.
 
Posts: 477
54
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Heating a home via solar has got to be the worst mistake you can do.  Heating is the very most inefficient use of solar power.  Off-grid solar is the single most expensive way to make electricity, and using for heat is just flushing money down the drain.

The last thing you mention at the bottom of your post is basically what is called a grid-tie, and that would be a cost-effective way to make electricity only if you get a good contract with the power company.  Net metering is mostly gone, and your typical contract these days has you selling your power you make to the company at ~5 cents/kWh, and buying it right back from them at ~15cents/kWh.  You are not going to get a grid-tie without inspections, and the power company signing off.  They may REQUIRE you to have the system commercially installed  by a journeyman electrician?  Don't know the code in your area.

Here is what I would do....
1) Install fireplace inserts into you fireplaces to increase their efficiency
2) Get the gas connected, and install gas heating, and a gas kitchen stove
3) Consider off-grid solar for everything except home heating.  Stay away from Li batteries if they might be located in an unheated area subject to freezing temperatures.
4) install on-demand water heaters that are gas powered to replace the aging water heater.
5) install as much insulation as you can into every spot you can get to.
 
pollinator
Posts: 5669
Location: Bendigo , Australia
512
plumbing earthworks bee building homestead greening the desert
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Edward, if you have photos of the solar hot water set up, I may be able to help, nothing from that era is unrepairable.
regards
 
pollinator
Posts: 955
Location: Central Ontario
184
kids dog books chicken earthworks cooking solar wood heat woodworking homestead
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Michael hit all the high points. The idea is to get at all the low hanging fruit before investing in solar. Insulation comes first as a watt not needed is always the cheapest . If the equipment is almost at end of life anyways gas is more efficient and generally cheaper.
 
Edward Norton
pollinator
Posts: 1495
860
2
trees bike woodworking
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Well it's been an interesting and educational day. Yes, insulation is a must. I currently have 36 old and mostly non functional sash windows in need of restoration and new storm windows. I need heavy curtains. I need a full energy audit.

My hair brain scheme was to use solar electricity and a big battery to power a heat pump. The heat pump would then heat water which would run through converted steam radiators. This is very problematic.
 
Edward Norton
pollinator
Posts: 1495
860
2
trees bike woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

John C Daley wrote:Edward, if you have photos of the solar hot water set up, I may be able to help, nothing from that era is unrepairable.
regards



Thank you John - here it is. Much appreciated.

My Grumman Sunstream
 
Edward Norton
pollinator
Posts: 1495
860
2
trees bike woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Mike Haasl wrote:I think they made add on doohickeys for radiators that can control the temp in each room.  But I'm not sure.

Could the oil appliances be converted to run on restaurant veggie oil?  Not sure if that's an option.



The doohickeys I've found so far won't work on my radiators . . . I've made some calls today but no one in my area wants to touch steam. As for veg oil . . . good question, not sure. Will investigate.
 
John C Daley
pollinator
Posts: 5669
Location: Bendigo , Australia
512
plumbing earthworks bee building homestead greening the desert
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Edward, I am preparing to start a business repairing sash windows.
I am not touting for business, I am in Australia, but Makita make a Paint stripper, which trims as little as .25mm off the surface of the wood.
Layers of paint are gone in seconds, no wet paint strippers etc.
It may help you.
 
Edward Norton
pollinator
Posts: 1495
860
2
trees bike woodworking
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

John C Daley wrote:Edward, I am preparing to start a business repairing sash windows.
I am not touting for business, I am in Australia, but Makita make a Paint stripper, which trims as little as .25mm off the surface of the wood.
Layers of paint are gone in seconds, no wet paint strippers etc.
It may help you.



That sounds too good to be true! Makita are my power tools of choice. I’ve just spent five days attacking a painted wooden floor with heat gun, chemical strippers ( not very permie) and sandpaper, which just clogs up. Is it the HK1810? My single complaint about Makita is the bewildering number of tools that appear to do the same job all with hard to decipher model numbers. Good luck with your new business, that sounds awesome. I only have 36 to restore…
 
John C Daley
pollinator
Posts: 5669
Location: Bendigo , Australia
512
plumbing earthworks bee building homestead greening the desert
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Makita paint stripper

Features
Saves up to 70% of time when compared to conventional working methods
For the environmentally-friendly removal of paint & varnish from flat wooden surfaces,
- such as stairs, doors & windows
-  for processing untreated wood
-  for processing notches by virtue of lateral blades
- Variably adjustable milling depth
Has;
- Die cast aluminium gear housing for optimum heat dissipation & durability
- Carbide reversible blade, can be used on four sides for a long service life
- Extraction possible by connecting an all-purpose vacuum cleaner
cost about $550
lf724s_001.jpg
Makita LF724S
Makita LF724S
 
steward and tree herder
Posts: 10647
Location: Isle of Skye, Scotland. Nearly 70 inches rain a year
5063
5
transportation dog forest garden foraging trees books food preservation woodworking wood heat rocket stoves ungarbage
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm not a fan of the ground source heat pump systems myself, or the air source systems, they just seem a little bit complicated and difficult to fix. The stories I hear in the shop may be the worst, but so many are fitted by companies that subsequently go out of business and no one else want to touch....I don't like relying on the electric grid for my heating either. I may be wrong, but I'm not sure a heat pump would work well with your existing radiators either - they are generally fitted to underfloor heating systems - which are a larger area / lower temperature system.
I don't know whether this link: https://basc.pnnl.gov/resource-guides/thermostatic-radiator-valves-steam-heating-systems may be of help? It seems to be an installer guide, but may help you understand what may be available or installed in the US.
 
John C Daley
pollinator
Posts: 5669
Location: Bendigo , Australia
512
plumbing earthworks bee building homestead greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Did you track down the tool for the windows?
 
gardener
Posts: 2800
Location: Central Maine (Zone 5a)
1346
homeschooling kids trees chicken food preservation building woodworking homestead
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Heating a home via solar has got to be the worst mistake you can do.  Heating is the very most inefficient use of solar power.



I just want to add, for anyone who is reading quickly, that I believe this poster meant that using solar electric to create heat is extremely inefficient. Using solar through south facing windows, or through hot water heaters can be very efficient.

Also, another shout out to the insulation comments. With enough insulation you need very little heat. I like the idea of ground source heat pumps (though I have never actually used one), and I wouldn't be opposed to them in the right situation, but don't rule out simplicity. Do you have a source for firewood? Good insulation and a good wood stove (or RMH) would be simple to run and provide plenty of heat for a single floor (perhaps section off the bedrooms that don't need to be as warm).
 
I'm doing laundry! Look how clean this tiny ad is:
Learn Permaculture through a little hard work
https://wheaton-labs.com/bootcamp
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic