Forum:

solar

Grumman Sunstream - can it be fixed, is it worth fixing?

Edward Norton

pollinator

Posts: 1495

857

I like...

posted 3 years ago

4
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I started a conversation about my heating goals and mentioned a 1980's solar heating system that currently doesn't work and according to the previous owner, didn't work when he bought the place 20 years ago. I did some research and the only mention I could find of Grummen Sunsteam were from bemused plumbers who were wondering if the clients system was worth fixing / could be fixed. I spoke to my cousin who knows a thing or two about solar water heaters and he said this is the worse kind and obsoleted by better tech.

Anyhoo . . . John C Daley suggested I post pictures as 'nothing from that era is unrepairable.' . . . so here are the three pictures I have. What do you think . . .

IMG_5181-(1).jpeg

IMG_5179-(1).jpeg

IMG_5180-(1).jpeg

Cargo bikes are cool

PEP - BB150 Badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by gir bot

nest - straw badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Barkley

natural medicine - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

dimensional lumber woodworking - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

Pearl Sutton

steward & bricolagier

Posts: 14982

Location: SW Missouri

10605

I like...

posted 3 years ago

7
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Not a lot can break in that. I vote with John C, worth at least figuring out what went wrong. Might just be that tank started leaking so they powered it down. Is the collector panel still there?

If it were mine, I'd be attempting repair. I like tech of that vintage, when thing were made solidly, and not digital.

Gardens in my mind never need water
Castles in the air never have a wet basement
Well made buildings are fractal -- equally intelligent design at every level of detail.
Bright sparks remind others that they too can dance
What I am looking for is looking for me too!

oddball - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Nicole Alderman

Phil Stevens

master pollinator

Posts: 1871

Location: Ashhurst New Zealand (Cfb - oceanic temperate)

576

I like...

posted 3 years ago

7
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I'd consider it a case of throwing good money after bad. Nowadays you get better returns by running extra PV panels to run an electric water heater, with no moving parts or pumps, no complex plumbing, no glycol loops. Very few points of failure in heating water with electricity compared to this mess.

John C Daley

pollinator

Posts: 5535

Location: Bendigo , Australia

495

I like...

posted 3 years ago

10
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Phil maybe correct, but its challenge that needs action just because we can!
I googled this grumman sunstream manual and found a lot of info.
I think it may be worth looking further. Keep away from plumbers etc, you need a solar nerd, they will be interested.

solar_text.gif

John Daley Bendigo, Australia The Enemy of progress is the hope of a perfect plan
Benefits of rainfall collection https://permies.com/t/88043/benefits-rainfall-collection
GOOD DEBT/ BAD DEBT https://permies.com/t/179218/mortgages-good-debt-bad-debt

John C Daley

pollinator

Posts: 5535

Location: Bendigo , Australia

495

I like...

posted 3 years ago

7
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Heres a bit more.
With the info I have given you each component can be tested, I am aware some of the gear visible in the photo is good stuff,
the Grunfos pump for instance. The air [ bladder ] tank may need replacing the rubber inside degrades
I will look for more info.

solar_diagram1.jpg

John C Daley

pollinator

Posts: 5535

Location: Bendigo , Australia

495

I like...

posted 3 years ago

8
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

C30 controller
C30 manuals

Discussion on a Solar Forum about the C30 controller
https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum/solar-thermal/solar-water-heating-forum/424769-gold-line-c30-differential-controller-question#post424772
Installation instructions
http://blog.twinsprings.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/C-30-1S.pdf
Here is an explanation of how to use the controllers

John C Daley

pollinator

Posts: 5535

Location: Bendigo , Australia

495

I like...

posted 3 years ago

5
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Another document describing an installed system
A citation

Mike Barkley

gardener & hugelmaster

Posts: 3756

Location: Gulf of Mexico cajun zone 8

2016

I like...

posted 3 years ago

8
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I'm with John on this. Fix it because it's there. Sort of like Mt. Everest. It appears to be in reasonably good condition. It might not be the most hi tech available these days but it will still heat water if you can find the problem. It might be as simple as reading the documentation or plugging a small leak.

Argue for your limitations and they are yours forever.

PEP - BB10 Badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

gardening - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

Food Prep and Preservation - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

round wood woodworking - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

earthworks - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

homesteading - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

John C Daley

pollinator

Posts: 5535

Location: Bendigo , Australia

495

I like...

posted 3 years ago

7
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I have found with solar hot water, the more hi-tech the worse things gewt.My racing sidecar passenger has a system that has tubes, pumps, thermostats and cables.
And a tank on the ground.
Birds eat the cables, the tubes get damaged by hail and the pump runs a lot.
My system has flat panels, thermosyphon to a tank in the roof, no pumps, no electricity.
My panels are 40 years old and the system works well.
I am told the tubes are 'more efficient' than flat plates, and its true, about 1%.
But when the 'efficient' system is down because of breakage, birds or no power the olde flat, inefficient system just syphons away.

I have about a 6ft difference in elevation between the tank base and the panel top tubes, I ran 1 inch copper pipe between the panel and the tank
and the whole hot water is gravity fed with 1 inch pipes around my small house.
The water gets so hot it can strip your skin off.

John F Dean

master steward

Posts: 7290

Location: southern Illinois, USA

2654

I like...

posted 3 years ago

4
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I realize this thought has a near zero chance of working ....but if it does!, Anyway, call the manufacturer. You will probably get shut down, but several times in my life I have been put in touch with the right person with some free time, and they have provided me with critical information.

The adjoining thought is “who used to install and service these things?” I have long worked off the over generalization that there isn’t a retired person out there that can’t use a few extra dollars. Note, I am with John C Daley who said don’t call a plumber. I am suggesting to call a retired plumber with experience working on this equipment.

….give me coffee to do the things I can and bourbon to accept the things I can’t.

John C Daley

pollinator

Posts: 5535

Location: Bendigo , Australia

495

I like...

posted 3 years ago

5
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

From the documents I found, the Grumman systems seem to have been installed during the 1970's, which is why I thought a Solar nerd may know, but a retired plumber could well be another line to try.

Kenneth Elwell

pollinator

Posts: 1180

Location: Boston, Massachusetts

517

I like...

posted 3 years ago

8
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I began a reply last night, but gave up, now I'm back.
I'm in agreement with John and John on finding a solar heating contractor, retired or not, although one in the business a long time is more likely to be familiar with your equipment. I know a guy in Boston, who is soon to retire. He told me that he did quite a few decommissions of functioning systems, either after a change in ownership, or before a roofing job - not to be returned. I hoped to get some panels from him, but the timing never worked out.

I'd test the panels and piping to the roof for leaks, if the panels are good, keep going... the equipment in the basement is fairly standard plumbing stuff. It is easy to obtain, and easy to work on. Some like the expansion tank, or circulator pump might not work due to age/sitting unused, but you never know.
It could be the system was abandoned due to a fault that was just too expensive for the owner to afford at the time? It may have been drained, to prevent any future mishap with a leak?

The nice thing about solar hot water, is that you are collecting and using HEAT, no conversion required. It's possible you can eliminate the need to run your boiler/heater in the 3 warmer seasons. In the winter, when your boiler is running anyways, hot water is almost a byproduct, at least not the only reason for the boiler to run.

Nails are sold by the pound, that makes sense.
Soluna Garden Farm -- Flower CSA -- plants, and cut flowers at our farm.

Thomas Tipton

pioneer

Posts: 337

I like...

posted 3 years ago

6
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I've come quite a way in completing a solar water system for my place. If I remember correctly, the Solar Thermal systems are more efficient heat gatherers than are Solar Photovoltaic. Simply because the Solar Voltaic panels max out at about 24% efficiency. I'll throw my two cents in and say that if I were in your shoes I would definitely give repairing it a try. Probably just a matter of a previous owner not doing Preventative Maintenance on a regular schedule. Mechanical systems, when left to their own devices, fail.

Where there is Liberty, there is Christ!

Edward Norton

pollinator

Posts: 1495

857

I like...

posted 3 years ago

7
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Thank you all for your hardworking, investigating and replying. I'm guessing this was installed during the 70's fuel crisis.

Did you know that Grumman made the US Postal vans? I've made some calls, all dead ends os far, however, one person mention that the division that made solar shutdown in the 90's.

I'm going to have various plumbers and electricians and heating engineers visiting, assessing, quoting and working over the next six months. I had grand plans of DIY but to be honest, electrical and mechanical engineering is outside my comfort zone - I prefer working with wood and dirt. And to complicate matters, the language this side of the pond is different to the language I grew up with, and languages were never my strong subject. Anyhoo . . . I'll make a nuisance of myself whenever an engineer is in the house and ask lots of questions and see where that leads me. If there's any updates, I'll post here.

Cargo bikes are cool

Thomas Tipton

pioneer

Posts: 337

I like...

posted 3 years ago

2
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

A few things that can be done in order to perform a trouble shooting checlist is to: Power up the pump. Is it working? Is there fluid in the system? Does the system hold pressure? Does the Differential Temperature Controller work? There quite honestly isn't a whole lot more to it. You'll probably need to replace that small pressure tank. Rubber membranes don't keep their resiliency forever. Circulator pumps don't last forever either. The electronics in the Differential Temperature controller may have gone bad. Faulty relay perhaps? Probably the worst case scenario is that there is a hole or a connection has developed a leak over time. Still not the end of the world.

Where there is Liberty, there is Christ!

David Baillie

pollinator

Posts: 937

Location: Central Ontario

171

I like...

posted 3 years ago

7
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

So many great replies.
Having visited and trouble shot a few solar thermal systems I share your desire to see it run. There was a good trouble shooting order above which I would amend a little. First things first isolate and pressure test the tank ; if it's gone the storage heart of the system is dead so it's not worth it. Next would be the collectors; again isolate and pressure test on they are the generation heart. The parts that usually fail from what I've experienced and read about are
1) some form of vaccum lock or air in the system. Often if something failed the collectors will overheat causing a pressure release of fluid replaced by air somewhere in the system.
2) a failed controller
3) a failed valve or air eliminator
4) a failed pump, or often a worn out pump can't overcome the same level of friction it used to.
5) a failed tank or collector.
It's totally doable to bring it back to life but then comes the fun part. Is it worth it? That is a personal question. My own belief is I would do the tests and see where the fault lays then evaluate. If collectors and tank are good yes if either is the source of the fault no.
Cheers, David

Randy Devinney

Posts: 1

posted 2 years ago

7
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I used to install those in Globe Arizona in the late 1970's. It was a simple hydronic system. The differential controller was the weak link. It was crude with lots of IC's, and was not robust. The water tank has a heat exchanger wrapped around the tank. The solar loop was a closed, pressurized loop just like a hydronic boiler. In the photo it looks like your water tank is in trouble... all the corrosion at the base.

Phil Stevens

master pollinator

Posts: 1871

Location: Ashhurst New Zealand (Cfb - oceanic temperate)

576

I like...

posted 2 years ago

2
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Odds are good that any electrolytic capacitors on the board have perished, too. If (and that's still a big "if") I had the inclination to resurrect something like this, I would reverse engineer it with a Raspberry Pi/Arduino solution to replace the controller.

John C Daley

pollinator

Posts: 5535

Location: Bendigo , Australia

495

I like...

posted 2 years ago

1
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Edward, have you progressed with is project?

Patty Shaw

Posts: 1

posted 2 years ago

2
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Hi. I have a grumman solar hot water heater installed in 1984. Has worked great till toady Running but no hot water Low pressure. Looking for help. Cant complain about 37 years. But would like to keep it going

John C Daley

pollinator

Posts: 5535

Location: Bendigo , Australia

495

I like...

posted 2 years ago

1
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Have you read all the threads, there is good infoirmation here?

Bill Christian

Posts: 4

posted 2 years ago

5
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I installed Grumman Sunstream systems in the 1980's. Some of my installs are still running fine. "There is nothing to break that can't be fixed". I believe the system can be easily repaired by a good solar technician. There are no leaks in the antifreeze loop - gauge reads 30 psi. Most likely you need a new 10k ohm sensor ($

or fix a loose connection.
But you need a new tank. You DO NOT NEED a very expensive solar tank with built-in coil. A standard electric water heater with a simple modification will do. (The antifreeze-to-water heat exchanger is in that white plastic case, not the tanks.) Email me for help, at bill_christian at comcast.net.

Tim Keating

Posts: 1

posted 2 years ago

Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

How do you drain a Grumman solar sun stream unit
Turn it off
Get a big bucket
Then what?
Tim
4102125046

bruce Fine

Posts: 1521

111

posted 2 years ago

1
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

some studies have shown that water passing through real copper pipes has an antibacterial effect on the water.
your photos show lots of real copper pipes.

Anthony Giordano

Posts: 1

posted 2 years ago

Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I have a complete Grumman system with 88 gallon solar water tank for sale. Call 732 551 4159.

Bill Christian

Posts: 4

posted 1 year ago

3
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Grumman made extremely good equipment. I would be amazed if it was not an easy fix. I'd expect it to last forever. Tank will need replacement, every 15-30 years, unless you splurge on stainless steel or are good about replacing the sacrificial anode rod (NOBODY replaces that when they should... preferring to sacrifice the tank instead. I could step you through troubleshooting.

Paul Annitto

Posts: 1

posted 11 months ago

1
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Hi I just came across this posting after inputting the make and model number of a solar water heater into a search engine. My son has bought a house and it is a total demo. We are doing the gutting ourselves. I am totally unfamilar with this type of system. I have cut the electrical power and turned off the water to the solar tank. Is there anything else that I need to do before taking it apart. How do I dismantle the system with the freon still contained. Any help would be greatly appreciated as I am new to this type of system. Thanks Paul

Warren Spain

Posts: 1

posted 5 months ago

3
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

As a general contractor involved in new builds and remodels, I was introduced to a Grumman Sunstream. The homeowner explained that his home was built in 1980 and was a model home for all the new solar technology programs president Carter had introduced. Anyone remember the solar panels on the whitehouse during this period?
Grumman built the lunar lander, the F-14 Tomcat, B-2 Stealth bomber and yes, the Sunstream solar hot water system. In other words, they make amazing things and the system in this house had worked flawlessly for 30 years. I was fortunate to have found a guy who was familiar with them and had serviced them. We replaced the 80 gallon tank, which had failed, before flushing the NASTY 30 year old ethylene glycol from the closed loop and heat exchanger. We then refilled with PROPYLENE glycol as it is not as toxic. We cleaned the collector and inspected the copper lines and added new pipe insulation . That was all the servicing it required. The 80 gallon tank had back up electric heat elements like any other conventional water heater but due to the sunny weather in Austin, it rarely needed them. Great system and I’d recommend keeping it.
Warren Spain
Austin, TX
Warren@greenbuilt.com

Bill Christian

Posts: 4

posted 2 months ago

5
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I installed Grumman solar systems in the 80's. They were great and could last 50 years (replacing tanks every 25 or so because that's how long ANY hot water tank lasts), and doing the very minor things you'd do to any heating system. If you do remove it, and if the panels are 4 x 10, email me because I'd be interested in them. Thanks!

Rich Whites

Posts: 2

posted 1 month ago

4
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I was that solar nerd in the early 80s. I got involved in the energy sector during the first Arab oil embargo in the late 70s. The glycol based solar systems are effective and actually relatively easy to fix. Yes, parts wear out. Just looking at your photos I can see the system pressure is low, so either the expansion tank has lost its precharge of air, or the system has fluid leak. Next, the magenta Grunfos pump's shaft is located on a vertical axis. This a pump orientation which if air is gets into the system will result in the ceramic watercooled/ lubricated bearings failing. The C-30 controller was one of the best in its day. It uses a reverse temperture coeffecient 3k @70f thermistor at the panel and at the bottom of the storage tank. Issues here can easily checked with an ohmeter and some understanding of Ohm's law. I retired in 2023 and kind of enjoy these kind of things. send me a email. Best regards, Rich

On top of spaghetti all covered in cheese, there was this tiny ad:

Learn Permaculture through a little hard work

https://wheaton-labs.com/bootcamp