How bad is clean?

Back in the late 70s I read an article that still haunts me. It was written by an MD and was purely speculative and drew no conclusions.   The author questioned the practice of some “Good” middle class parents who kept their home spotless, regularly disinfected every surface of their home, and saw to it that their children were never dirty.   The author questioned if these parents were depriving their children of the natural opportunity to build resistance to diseases.

He based his comments on his non scientific observations in his practice that the higher up the middle class ladder his patients were, the more the older children appeared to be picking up every bug that came around.

Of course, there are many possible explanations for this ….such as the wealthier you are, the more you can afford frequent trips to the doctor. But, as I commented, the question raised still bothers me.

The current understanding is that we are getting ill from too sterile living (the hygiene hypothesis).

Asthma: inhaling too many biosides and disinfectants like chlorine

Food allergies: eating effectively dead food, when a healthy adult should have four pounds of microbes just in their gut!

Eczema: washing away the natural microbes that should reside on our skin, and substituting that with petroleum-based creams and lots of chemicals

Neurology: too sterile eenvironment causing the body to attack itself, resulting in autoimmune diseases like the deadly ALS or MS.

They' shown that children raised with animals are less likely to get allergies.
https://time.com/6266337/pets-food-allergies-children/#:~:text=Compared%20to%20children%20without%20pets,to%20their%20mothers'%20survey%20responses.

And we know how "clean" our four legged friends are

Like most things, I try to go back to the beginning. I ask, "What kind of environment was the human body designed to inhabit?" There are precious few circumstances where we have learned to outdo nature.

A rather inconclusive study with good tidbits on the subject.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1448690/

My totally unscientific opinion is that a certain level of cleanliness is really important - for instance, keeping the kitchen clean enough to avoid food poisoning, washing hands after using the toilet, not pooping in your drinking water, keeping pests out of clothing, skin, hair, and food, etc.  Beyond that, I suspect it's not *as* helpful, to a point (diminishing returns), then tips over into being unhealthy at a later point.  Where those points are, exactly, are probably open to debate.  Where you live also probably plays into it - in cool, dry areas, you probably need to wash things less than in hot, humid environments, due to mildew, molds, bacterial reproduction rate, etc.  

Personally, I think that drenching your house in toxic 'cleaners' in an effort to sterilize your environment has clearly crossed the 'unhealthy' line, but there are a lot of other things where you could make debate.  My husband thought I did laundry (particularly sheets and towels) too often.  They aren't being washed in anything particularly nasty (soap nuts), but he has correctly pointed out that we could spend that time and water on other things, so there is the financial/mental health/work-life balance aspect to consider, as well.  

Funny question.  I was talking to two doctors about this very question over the last few days.  The general conclusion was that soap+water+20 seconds is the right amount of clean.  The frequency depends on the lifestyle.  For me working with livestock frequently, that's my hands every time I come in the house and before touching food, face twice a day, and body once a day.  

Hand sanitiser (like the type that kill 99% of germs) is too clean except in high-risk situations like a hospital, interacting with immune-compromised people, or during a plague.  Likewise with sanitizing household cleaners.  Unless there is a specific need for sanitizing, don't waste money on it as it kills too many beneficial bacteria.

According to the doctors.  

Personally, that opinion works for me so I don't do much reading on the science.  It takes time away from more enjoyable activities.  

(note, when they say soap, they are referring to the stuff made from fat that's chemically reacted with lye.  Not detergent or soap-like products like dove.  They made a strong point to differentiate between soap and soap-like substances)

Too much chemical goo is certainly unhealthy, especially obsessively applied. We are all walking compost heaps. Exposure to a good amount of country dirt (as opposed to urban sewage) is likely a good thing. Wash your hands with simple soap and water to avoid cross-contamination.

But based on my personal experience, I think the whole internet "truth" about immunity/allergy stuff is grossly and perhaps dangerously oversimplified, almost a "pop psych" talking point.

I grew up on a working dairy farm, exposed to pollen and ghrain dust and endless cow poo and cats and dogs and 10,000 kinds of mold. I should be an M-1 tank of immunity.

And yet I am deeply affected by respiratory mold and grain dust, allergic to cats, and the periodic pollen blooms of the year whether natural or agricultural make me physically ill.

There is a known syndrome wherein passionate, generational farmers in their prime -- say age 40 -- develop debilitating allergies that make it impossible for them to continue.

For those who wondered about the threshold, the article was discussing homes that were surgical room clean.

Lol, good luck keeping nasty stuff out of a kids mouth!

An allergist I once went to said most people w/ allergies (not the milder kind) grew up in early environments where the homes were cleaned too much. He particularly meant dust, etc. Vacuuming too often, dusting too often, etc. Your body doesn't get enough opportunity to recognize allergens which you can produce antibodies against.

Another couple of questions I ask myself: How many times have I heard of someone contracting a staph infection in a hospital? How many times have I heard of someone contracting a staph infection working on the farm or in some other "dirty" environment?

Not really sure about the stats on staph infections, but I know people who are on disability who contracted brucellosis and leptospirosis from working on dairy farms. Rural living isn't the be-all end-all prescription for ruddy health, and there are plenty of pathogens and allergens that are specific to agricultural settings. Valley fever also comes to mind (one more reason not to till the soil!), as do bird and swine flu.

I think that it comes down to sensible precautions. By all means, get dirty. Play with animals. Encourage a diverse soil biota that will fend off the bad bugs and don't be afraid to get a little of it in you...our gut biome apparently gets a good recharge from healthy soil bacteria. But wear a mask if you're slinging dusty bales, and wash with soap and water if a cow pees on you.

I know this oversimplifies it but like everything in our lives it all about moderation. To much of even a good thing becomes a bad thing.
As an off shoot of the same concept. I think the fact that so many children of today spend so much time in the house on electric devices instead of outside playing in the soil, getting dirty, will have an adverse affect on there health.  Most Permies kids probably don't have this issue, but a lot of city kids will.

I can speak to this as a PE teacher. About 25% of my students are suffering from allergies, asthma and even diabetes. I started to notice a trend among the students who had allergies and asthma. They were all very well dressed and always used hair products to achieve perfect hair. Their parents were always the ones to complain about their children getting grass stains, or dirt, or scrapes or anything else that has traditionally been part of childhood. You will find these parents always have an emergency supply of hand sanitizer (which is a known carcinogen) and I cringe when I see teachers douse an entire class with hand sanitizer because they are afraid of dirt or covid. So, I put two and two together. These kids come from spotless homes and spend little time outside so their immune systems are compromised, inexperienced, and highly reactive to minor irritations. Now, I insist on my own children going outside and playing in the dirt and mud. I have them handle chickens, manure, and mulch as much as possible.

I also struggled with staph infections so I can speak to that as well. I never had a serious infection under the skin until I joined the Army. At basic training I got staph so bad, I had to miss some training. Once it's in your body, it never leaves and infections have reoccured since then. It appeared to be going around the base and was impossible to eradicate. My theory is that staph originates in places where 1. there are lots of people gathered 2. there is physical labor causing scrapes and cuts 3. there is little time to keep up on personal hygeine. I would say this is why staph doesn't show up too often on an isolated farm, but does show up in gyms and weight rooms.

Nancy Wojtasek wrote:An allergist I once went to said most people w/ allergies (not the milder kind) grew up in early environments where the homes were cleaned too much. He particularly meant dust, etc. Vacuuming too often, dusting too often, etc. Your body doesn't get enough opportunity to recognize allergens which you can produce antibodies against.

I have the worst allergies of anyone I know except for one person. (I have indoor and outdoor allergies, plus food allergies, and asthma) And I absolutely guarantee that they were not the result of my teen mother being too good of a housekeeper.

I have a November birthday. People with November Birthdays are more likely to have allergies than those born in any other month in the Northern hemisphere in an area with snowy winters (so does the other allergic person I mentioned). https://health.howstuffworks.com/diseases-conditions/allergies/allergy-basics/marked-birth-your-birth-month-allergies-dna-are-linked.htm The theory was that this has to with immune system development which occurs about 6 months after birth and that you haven't previously had exposure to the allergens when it is developing, but newer evidence suggests that it may be genetic switching.

But it is also known that things like environmental exposure to things like respiratory toxins (in my case an ongoing tire fire that lasted 6 months or so) and Cigarette smoke (also extremely applicable to me) are also more likely to be contributing factors to people having allergies.

P.S. I got dirty outside all the time growing up... I'm still allergic to all kinds of pollen and grass.

Skyler Weber wrote: My theory is that staph originates in places where 1. there are lots of people gathered 2. there is physical labor causing scrapes and cuts 3. there is little time to keep up on personal hygeine. I would say this is why staph doesn't show up too often on an isolated farm, but does show up in gyms and weight rooms.

That is definitely possible. And like the doctor referenced in the OP, I don't really have any evidence, just observations. One thing I didn't mention is how these conversations I see when someone asks how "so and so" is after their surgery and it is revealed that the surgery wasn't so bad, but the staph infection was terrible. Then, the conversation often ends with concerned expressions as someone says, "You know, that staph bacteria LIVES on our skin!"

So, does staphylococcus truly "originate?" It's always there, waiting on a cut to happen. People who are in hospitals having surgery are almost certainly among the most sterilized people in society, but another factor is the number of people in proximity as you say, and countless other factors.

That reminds me of something pertinent to the conversation. I do recall Dr. John Bergman saying that the staphylococcus living on our skin actually protects us from the strains that tend to cause these nasty infections. That would make sense. Our bodies are practically an ecosystem unto themselves. The bacteria happily living symbiotically on and in our bodies have a vested interest in fending off competition. Life is balance.

Jordan, that bit about post-op infections makes a lot of sense to me: The highly sterile artificial environment of the operating theatre suppresses the healthy skin microbiome that normally keeps things like aggressive strains of staph in check. After the surgery, the good bacteria is slower to recover and the opportunistic bugs seize the moment. Sort of like spraying to clear a paddock of pasture only to have a crop of weeds replace it.