Forum:

woodland

After the fire - developing an action plan for a patch of burned forest in Portugal

Burra Maluca

out to pasture

Posts: 12484

Location: Portugal

3346

I like...

posted 1 year ago

20
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

A few years ago we downsized to a place with just a handful of acres, including a patch of neglected forest at the highest part of the property, with terraces on the slope up to it. Most of the mature trees had already been removed when we bought it, and it was very overgrown with cistus and young pine, though there was a small patch of oak. There were no maps, the owner wasn't too sure of the boundaries, and it was too overgrown for our elderly neighbour to walk through to show us where they were. So we still don't know exactly which bit is ours.

But then a few weeks ago everything changed. A fire swept through, caused by someone working alone cutting metal with an angle-grinder which sent sparks flying. 200 hectares were destroyed, and, as we were close by and downwind, we were hit quite badly. And then the fire travelled uphill. Fast.

This was the aftermath...

Here's a view from the other side.

My land is basically the gulley and everything below.

On the plus side, the undergrowth is now cleared! I did throw a bucket full of sweet acorns from my old tree around there as best I could about three years ago, but I've no idea if they grew, and any seedlings were no doubt destroyed in the fire. But now I have to decide how to proceed. I haven't even been up there to investigate yet, but hopefully I'll be able to go tomorrow to assess the damage. i want to establish paths through the area, figure out where the boundaries are, decide what I want to plant there, and source seeds. The land is very steep with thin soil. I'm currently thinking that various sorts of oak, including cork and the sweet acorn species, and also chestnut. These can be planted direct if I can find suitable trees to gather seed from. Then maybe I can find seed of other local trees, like hawthorn and rowan, and grow them on to plant out next year. Plans are still very vague, and I'll update this thread as I gather photographs and come to any decisions.

Apparently hundreds of years ago the mountain was covered in grape vines, but in the 14th century the king had them all pulled up and replaced with chestnuts. But more recently the forests have been neglected and the chestnuts were destroyed by fire. I've heard from locals that chestnuts will no longer grow up there, but I know that's not strictly true as I have seen some quite large specimens right up near the top, which I intend to raid for seed stock.

Hopefully I'll have photos tomorrow, including of the top terrace just before the start of the forest, where my olive trees were.

All thoughts and suggestions welcome!

How permies.com works
What is a Mother Tree ?

PEP - BB10 Badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by gir bot

Timothy Norton

master gardener

Posts: 4238

Location: Upstate NY, Zone 5, 43 inch Avg. Rainfall

1718

I like...

posted 1 year ago

13
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Well, this is quite the undertaking but quite the canvas.

I studied Emergency Management in college and the first bit of advice I can give you is that "It is better to start now with a good plan instead of waiting for a perfect plan."

You need to consider immediate issues. You said you own the land by the gully. Are you at risk for run-off/land slides? Could you have washout?

I do not believe you can do ALL the land immediately, but look for areas that might effect you.

I'm not sure if you have any log wood you can access, but here is a resource for Log Erosion Barriers and some information that relates to it.

https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/resources/guides-and-instructions/after-the-fire-log-erosion-barriers

Is there anything like an agricultural extension office where you live that might be able to give some land remediation advice or hook you up with nursery for native shrubs/trees? I'd imagine getting something into the ground in the short term to drop roots would be the next logical step.

- Tim's Homestead Journal - Purchase a copy of Building a Better World in Your Backyard - Purchase 6 Decks of Permaculture Cards -
- Purchase 12x Decks of Permaculture Cards - Purchase a copy of the SKIP Book - Purchase 12x copies of Building a Better World in your Backyard

PEP - BB60 Badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by gir bot

Burra Maluca

out to pasture

Posts: 12484

Location: Portugal

3346

I like...

posted 1 year ago

10
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Timothy Norton wrote:I studied Emergency Management in college and the first bit of advice I can give you is that "It is better to start now with a good plan instead of waiting for a perfect plan."

This is excellent advice! Paul has a saying about not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, and you're quite right. Getting something done NOW is better than waiting to figure out a perfect solution.

You need to consider immediate issues. You said you own the land by the gully. Are you at risk for run-off/land slides? Could you have washout?

Well we've already had some seriously heavy rain which has caused issues, but not nearly as bad as you might fear. All the land below the forest is terraced, with huge and very secure terraces. I'm going to try to find relevant photos that my partner took, but basically apart from in the gulleys, which got pretty exciting to say the least, ash and debris has washed down the slope through the forest and been dumped on the higher terraces. Which gives me a good base to plant some almonds and things up there!

This is the top terrace, with some burned out olives.

You can see loads of ash dumped in swirls all over the place. We have lost a couple of olives completely, but I'm pretty sure most will survive, even if they have to grow back from new shoots put out near the base.

And this is the water mine between the forest and the top terrace. It's basically an adit cut into the very soft rock, and apparently goes back 100 metres into the hillside. This one dries out a lot and isn't used, but we also have one lower down which works very well.

After the rain came, loads of ash washed down the slope and completely filled the reservoir in front of the mine. At some point I intend to dig this out and use it around any new trees I plant on the top terrace. But it's not a priority at the moment.

Is there anything like an agricultural extension office where you live that might be able to give some land remediation advice or hook you up with nursery for native shrubs/trees? I'd imagine getting something into the ground in the short term to drop roots would be the next logical step.

There are things like this around. Funnily enough I tried to sign up earlier in the year as a volunteer to grow seedlings to donate to landowners effected by fire, but the project fell through. I did, however, buy some of the tree planting trays and experiment growing a few almonds, rowan, chestnuts and walnuts. Nowhere near enough plant all my land, but I do have a few things with roots that could go out somewhere. And I'll start asking around to see what schemes are available. I do worry thought that things tend to be overly bureaucratic and I may end up losing control of what happens to the land if I accept too much assistance. I'll start chasing a few leads though. And gathering acorns and chestnuts, because I know that the feeling locally is that you get a better success rate from seed than from seedlings with the those.

How permies.com works
What is a Mother Tree ?

Phil Stevens

master pollinator

Posts: 1744

Location: Ashhurst New Zealand (Cfb - oceanic temperate)

533

I like...

posted 1 year ago

10
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

If you're limited by time and available resources, I would say to start at the top and work your way down. Whatever you can do to hold topsoil in place high up will translate into less loss downslope. I think you have a winter rainy season, is that correct? Broadcasting a mix of annuals to germinate in the autumn can't be a bad thing to try and the quicker you get some roots in the ground the better your chances of keeping soil on the slope.

It's a heartbreaking sight and quite the setback, but a wonderful opportunity lies within. Lots of Mediterranean woodland species are fire adapted, like your olives, and the regrowth from intact root systems can be an impressive sight. Plus, you just got a dose of biochar and minerals applied across your land. I'm glad you're OK and hope the person with the grinder learned a lesson....

Jay Angler

steward

Posts: 12420

Location: Pacific Wet Coast

6991

I like...

posted 1 year ago

4
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Hopefully you can create an better forest than was there before!

It looks like areas have standing dead trees. Can any of those be dropped for mini-hugel sorts of uses?

Visit Redhawk's soil series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
How permies.com works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads

oddball - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

textiles - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

dimensional lumber woodworking - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by jordan barton

Food Prep and Preservation - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Leigh Tate

greywater and willow feeders - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Leigh Tate

Nancy Reading

steward and tree herder

Posts: 8375

Location: Isle of Skye, Scotland. Nearly 70 inches rain a year

3972

I like...

posted 1 year ago

7
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Oh how heartbreaking for you Burra! Fire is something I'm starting to worry about more since my trees are looking more like trees than undergrowth. I would have a look at some of the threads in our wildfire forum for ideas to mitigate risks of fire spreading. You'll probably be OK now for a bit, since your fuel supply is gone :( but hopefully it won't take long for the trees to start growing back. In a mediterranean area wildfires are presumably part of the ecosystem cycles, so are likely to happen again.
As you say starting at all is good, but I would take the opportunity to look at the site - access and pathways to places like your springheads (watermines - how great! Have we got a thread about them?) can be improved while you do have easier access. New viewpoints and productive planting areas (when those chestnut start nutting how to access easily?) could be considered too.

How Permies works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads
My projects on Skye: The tree field, Growing and landracing, perennial polycultures, "Don't dream it - be it! "

Jay Angler

steward

Posts: 12420

Location: Pacific Wet Coast

6991

I like...

posted 1 year ago

3
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Burra, have you read history and archeological books on your area, for ideas of how the land was managed a long time ago? Last year, I read Coppice Agroforestry ( https://permies.com/wiki/203188/Coppice-Agroforestry-Tending-Trees-Product ) and his history section was interesting reading. He figured some forms of coppicing were likely practiced in the Stone Age in Britain if I recall correctly.

You mentioned grape vines, but it sounds as if that was a monoculture, as is something I read recently suggesting Pistachio Nut trees would be the next "big thing". However, the article I read sounded too much like 'big ag/boom and bust' approach instead of a polyculture approach that supports the land first and the people get to go along for the ride.

There does appear to be indications that Europe in general will have longer and more severe heat and drought over the next 20 years at least, so anything you can do to hold water on that land could make a difference in the outcome.

Please post updates and both the ideas you decide on, and the ideas you decide to reject, as we've got a surprising number of permies living in Spain and Portugal, and your experiences may help many others! Isn't there some famous quote about "rising from the ashes"?

Visit Redhawk's soil series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
How permies.com works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads

klara stinders

pollinator

Posts: 72

Location: Spain

I like...

posted 1 year ago

10
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Oh no, Burra! I am so sorry to hear your story. You sound very positive about new opportunities though, and that encourages me even more to try and help you with what I know!
I live in Spain and have travelled through Portugal (I was there in 2017 as well, but drove back into Spain because there was just too much fire that year..) so my Iberean tree and plant observations and research may as well be of some help to you:-)
I give you a list of trees that are surviving with me in a semi arid iberean climate, and thus may have a chance at yours too:

- Quercus ilex: edible fruit, and you can grow black truffle underneath

- almond: starting from seed, they might turn out bitter, but you can graft sweet almond on them, as wel as other prunus genus like peach
- Quercus rotundifolia: edible fruit, it is an oak tree you find in Extremadura (Spain) where the black pigs walk around (it is the bellota tree)
- Quercus suber: cork oak
- Quercus faginea: a portugese oak
- fig: i have had no success with seed, but propagating with cuttings works great
- apricot
- peach
- walnut
- apple: I'm having a huge succes with apples where I live, they have just beautifully survived their 2nd summer and do great if you give them a little bit of shade, doesnt have to be much! when started from seed, it is the same as almond though (not a yummy apple) so graft another apple on if you like

My main advice is to not be afraid to put seeds directly into the ground. For me it has worked great so far for almonds, quercus ilex, peach and apples. This year I will have a go with walnuts, chestnuts and apricots. Putting them straight into the ground saves you time and gives them a chance to grow their taproot! (As an experiment, I pulled out some almonds when they just started showing the first leaves, turns out an almond's taproot is 30cm long before it starts growing above ground! So cool!)

Also, I know a tree-rich and beautiful area where they have brutal summers, so the trees you find there know already what 35+ degrees Celcius feels like. The region is called Sierra de Béjar (a Spanish mountain range close to Portugal, it is on the border of Salamanca and Extremadura). There are many chestnuts, you may find ridiculously old grape vines from abandoned fincas (ages ago the area was full of vines, before the chestnuts came I believe), walnut, figs, narrow leaved ash, there are some hawthorn species, Rosa canina, ...
Not that all these plants would work for you, but it is a good area for gathering seeds in case you cannot find any anywhere else...

Hope this helps, if I think of anything else I will let you know!

I'm doing it for the squirrels, dude.

PEP - BB20 Badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by gir bot

round wood woodworking - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

Burra Maluca

out to pasture

Posts: 12484

Location: Portugal

3346

I like...

posted 1 year ago

16
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I managed to haul my fat ass up to our bit of forest for a bit of an explore earlier, and I want to share the photos and my thoughts while they are still (relatively) fresh in my mind. I'll come back later and address everyone else's thoughts and suggestions.

This is me struggling up the track to the access to our bit of forest.

It's kinda steep!

We don't own this bit, but it's the only way we can access our bit of forest by tractor. More about the tractor later...

This bit is ours, though we aren't quite sure about the boundary. No big trees as it was all cleared out before we bought it and the whole place was overrun with rock-rose. The access track is now visible at this end and it's obvious that it carries on as far as the gully, which is also ours, as is a metre wide access strip along the far side, which we have never even attempted to use!

You can see our burned out olives as the land sweeps down to the terraces below.

Seedlings are bursting up everywhere.

No idea what this one is. Anyone have any clue?

The leaves look rather distinctive.

The view up from the access track.

The neighbour who showed us around and knows the boundaries just waved his hand in that general direction, over the impenetrable undergrowth, and said we owned as far as all the way up there somewhere. But we only actually own an acre or two of forest so I guess it's as far as the next track up, when we can find it, and over as far as the gully.

I think further explorations up there are in order now the undergrowth is gone and the weather is a bit cooler. But not today. I'm near total exhaustion already.

There's a nice big rock over on the right hand side of the photo. I wonder if that is ours?

I knew there were some sort of oak growing in a little patch somewhere around here, and I think those burned out trees with the pale leaves might be them!

I think they are the holm type oaks, that sometimes give the sweet acorns. The sweetness varies from tree to tree, and there are none visible so I can't even test them.

I wonder if they'll survive...

And look! New sprouts of holly-shaped oak leaves sprouting up from the roots of the burned out oak trees.

THIS is the sort of news I wanted to be able to report!

Happy now...

Bracken is showing its fiddle-shaped heads, too.

I'm not generally a huge fan of bracken, but right now anything green is welcome.

More little clumps of sprouting oaks are showing themselves.

Grow little oaks. I'll go find some acorns of various sorts as soon as I can and you can show them the ropes.

This is the view from the lower edge of our bit of forest looking over the back of the water mine (still full of ash and soil...) over our top terrace, which is already starting to green up!

Then we have to pick our way down a narrow path between the ravine and the edge of the cut out terrace wall. I tried to get a photo to show the far wall of the ravine, and with a bit of help from Rock I think I managed it.

The olive grove is already starting to green up. To the right of the olive trees you can see a rather singed young apricot tree, grown from a seed saved from my favourite three that we grew at our old place. I wonder if it will survive...

It was planted out here about three years ago and hasn't had a drop of care since then. The bark doesn't look too damaged. I'm hopeful, and will be keeping a close eye on it for signs of life.

There are some fascinating flow patterns left after the floods.

And finally, as we reach the lower terraces by the house, I see that the young quince tree, which was also grown from seed saved from a favourite tree at our old place, is bursting with new leaves. It gave us its first fruit this year and yesterday I was busy taking the seeds out to stratify in the hope that I can keep the line going even if we lost the parent tree. But it looks like the dear little thing is going to pull through.

How permies.com works
What is a Mother Tree ?

klara stinders

pollinator

Posts: 72

Location: Spain

I like...

posted 1 year ago

7
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Jay Angler wrote:Hopefully you can create an better forest than was there before!

It looks like areas have standing dead trees. Can any of those be dropped for mini-hugel sorts of uses?

Oooh, interesting thought! Maybe you dont need permission to drop a burnt tree... could be a major opportunity, because 'free' biomass is difficult to find these days!

I just thought of maybe leaving (part of) the dead trees for shade for newgrowth and newly planted (baby) trees + maybe they still block some wind?
Safety comes first though, maybe the pines are too weak to stay up.

I'm doing it for the squirrels, dude.

Timothy Norton

master gardener

Posts: 4238

Location: Upstate NY, Zone 5, 43 inch Avg. Rainfall

1718

I like...

posted 1 year ago

6
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I'm so relieved to see the green growth sprouting!

Perhaps it is the arial view, but being able to see the damage closer reduces the sirens going off in my head. Some of those trees got destroyed but there still seems to be fighters.

Thank you for documenting this and sharing it. It is a unique situation that hopefully not many people have to experience.

Jay Angler

steward

Posts: 12420

Location: Pacific Wet Coast

6991

I like...

posted 1 year ago

6
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

It is a relief to see green happening already! Way to go trees!

Burra Maluca wrote:

I'm not generally a huge fan of bracken, but right now anything green is welcome.

There is something that Bracken mines and releases for other plants but I couldn't find a reference quickly - Phosphorus is what my memory says, so yes, welcome it in the present. It's also pretty easy to pull up and drop to cover and feed the soil. However, it's also linked to some cancers - particularly when dry - so that's something to be aware of and possibly wear a mask if you have to deal with a lot of it. One site said that it holds on to a number of nutrients after clear-cutting, so I'd hope it would do the same after a fire.

Visit Redhawk's soil series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
How permies.com works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads

klara stinders

pollinator

Posts: 72

Location: Spain

I like...

posted 1 year ago

5
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Burra Maluca wrote:I
No idea what this one is. Anyone have any clue?

The leaves look rather distinctive.

That seedling looks like lupine to me.

I'm doing it for the squirrels, dude.

Phil Stevens

master pollinator

Posts: 1744

Location: Ashhurst New Zealand (Cfb - oceanic temperate)

533

I like...

posted 1 year ago

4
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Burra, would your uphill neighbours mind if you scattered seeds on their land? I'm thinking about that carpet of winter annuals to hold the soil during the rainy season and keep it from washing down on your place.

Burra Maluca

out to pasture

Posts: 12484

Location: Portugal

3346

I like...

posted 1 year ago

9
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

klara stinders wrote:
I give you a list of trees that are surviving with me in a semi arid iberean climate, and thus may have a chance at yours too:

- Quercus ilex: edible fruit, and you can grow black truffle underneath
- almond: starting from seed, they might turn out bitter, but you can graft sweet almond on them, as wel as other prunus genus like peach
- Quercus rotundifolia: edible fruit, it is an oak tree you find in Extremadura (Spain) where the black pigs walk around (it is the bellota tree)
- Quercus suber: cork oak
- Quercus faginea: a portugese oak
- fig: i have had no success with seed, but propagating with cuttings works great
- apricot
- peach
- walnut
- apple: I'm having a huge succes with apples where I live, they have just beautifully survived their 2nd summer and do great if you give them a little bit of shade, doesnt have to be much! when started from seed, it is the same as almond though (not a yummy apple) so graft another apple on if you like

My main advice is to not be afraid to put seeds directly into the ground. For me it has worked great so far for almonds, quercus ilex, peach and apples. This year I will have a go with walnuts, chestnuts and apricots. Putting them straight into the ground saves you time and gives them a chance to grow their taproot! (As an experiment, I pulled out some almonds when they just started showing the first leaves, turns out an almond's taproot is 30cm long before it starts growing above ground! So cool!)

That's a good list!

From experience peaches tend to need a lot more water during the summer than the other trees and die unless I fuss over them, so not what I want to be putting up in the forest. The others though will be good for either the forest or the top terrace, where things have to fend for themselves! There were two old walnuts growing in the gulley so I know they will work. My neighbours experimented planting young trees up in their bit of forest a few years ago and lost every single one, so I'm more inclined to grow from seed up there, using things with big seed like acorns, chestnuts, walnuts. Then maybe fig, apricot and apple or quince as young plants on the top terrace.

In my last village there were a lot of wild Quercus rotundifolia (bolota) around. Not all of them give very sweet acorns, but the locals used to know which trees gave the best acorns and showed me all the best ones around the village. I'm certain that if I go and ask any of the old ladies nearby that I can persuade them to show me the best trees to gather from. I figure that if I plant the sweetest acorns, I'm more likely to get trees that also give sweet acorns! I also have an offer to go and collect acorns from someone's cork oak patch.

My partner has to go into town this morning, which involves driving up and over the mountain, so I'm going to hitch a ride and go on a bit of a chestnut-and-oak hunt while I'm at it. I figured that harvesting from as close to the top of the mountain as I can will give the genetics that best suited to my land. I have noticed that most of the chestnuts, for instance, grow on the north side of the mountain, but my bit is on the south and catches the sun harder during the summer. So I want the best genetics I can by choosing the most appropriate trees to harvest seed from.

With luck there will be photos later!

How permies.com works
What is a Mother Tree ?

Michael Cox

pollinator

Posts: 3842

Location: Kent, UK - Zone 8

696

I like...

posted 1 year ago

10
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Time for me to drop my regular recommendation of vetiver grasses. They are ideal for your climate, regrow well from fires, and are amazing at stabilizing soil and preventing sediment run-off. Plant hedges densely on-contour and any sediment that washes down the slope will be trapped above them. Over time natural level terraces form.

In your situation, you could use them to quickly stabilize key areas, while also laying out level areas for future paths across the land.

Longer term, the roots go very deep to find moisture, so are climate resiliant. They produce huge quantities of biomass for mulching, and make an excellent companion for other plants by offering shelter, improved soil moisture, and improved soil nutrients.

Planting density is usually one vetiver slip every 6 inches, so you will need a LOT to do the whole area. However once you have a few the clumps can be divided regularly to make hundreds of new slips for planting.

Moderator, Treatment Free Beekeepers group on Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/treatmentfreebeekeepers/

PEP - BB5 Badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by gir bot

woodland care - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Ash Jackson

animal care - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Ash Jackson

Food Prep and Preservation - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Ash Jackson

community living - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Ash Jackson

Bronwyn Olsen

Posts: 26

posted 1 year ago

5
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I am very interested in your progress. I have property in Northern California where fire is always a concern. I hesitate in spending limited funds on desired plants and trees because of this. I am excited to see what is resilient that may come back after a fire. I look forward to all contributors here. I love Permies for this! Lots of good ideas shared.

Tomi Hazel

Posts: 24

Location: Southern Oregon

posted 1 year ago

9
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Hello Burra,

I would advise getting all the carbon left on site down on the ground except for stable snags. Snags are really important to recovery. And I would caution against using machinery as compaction of soils on fresh burns is a real problem; compaction restricts topsoil recovery and forest regeneration. Here at the gulch I would lightly toast and sow grass seeds from Fescues, Bromes, Native Rye and other deep rooted native mycorrhizal perennial grasses to hold soil and build carbon capture again.

Dead trees that have to come down and fresh un-embedded logs can be laid just off contour and in ground contact to act as nurse logs that shelter seedlings and soils. This may be a chance to lay out permanent access trails that become future broadscale underburn fire breaks. These trails can be laid out on Keyline patterns and can be built to allow future woodlot tending. Roads can be put to bed becoming water capture and infiltration opportunities. I love wheel barrows and they only require well built trails.

hazel

Tomi Hazel Ward of Little Wolf Gulch in Southern Oregon
Author of "Social Forestry: Tending the Land as People of Place"

Bronwyn Olsen

Posts: 26

posted 1 year ago

Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I was wondering if a”water mine” was a flume? That is a ditch to move water?

Bronwyn Olsen

Posts: 26

posted 1 year ago

3
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Can you please expand on the importance of leaving stable snags standing?Thank you!

Jay Angler

steward

Posts: 12420

Location: Pacific Wet Coast

6991

I like...

posted 1 year ago

5
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Bronwyn Olsen wrote:I am very interested in your progress. I have property in Northern California where fire is always a concern. I hesitate in spending limited funds on desired plants and trees because of this.

This is the second reason that many permies members start plants from seed - limited funds. I don't have the space/ecosystem to put seeds straight in the ground and not have a deer or slug munch the lot of them, but I still start many plants by either seed in pots or by rooting cuttings. Many people are happy to let you take cuttings if you ask nicely, and many fruit seeds will produce fruit that is tasty enough and those seeds could come from groceries, or better yet, a farmer's market where the fruit is grown locally.

That said, I've also let it be known that I'll accept trees as birthday presents! I don't need fancy clothes, or dust collectors, but another Goji berry bush would be welcome! (I started some from seed in the spring with difficulty. I put them on the porch to harden off and a slug came by one night and ate the lot of them. I was seriously ticked, but I'll just have to try again!)

Visit Redhawk's soil series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
How permies.com works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads

Burra Maluca

out to pasture

Posts: 12484

Location: Portugal

3346

I like...

posted 1 year ago

9
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Bronwyn Olsen wrote:I was wondering if a”water mine” was a flume? That is a ditch to move water?

No, a water mine is a horizontal tunnel (adit) dug into the very soft, porous rock. It's blocked by a low wall at the entrance and it fills up with water. There are three on the property. The top one only works when there is a lot of water around. Though now it's filled up with ash and loose soil it doesn't work at all. There's a lower one down in the ravine which is completely disused and non-functional. And there's one on the terrace just above the house which supplies all our drinking and irrigation water.

When I have the energy I'll try to make a good thread about them, but for now here's a photo.

How permies.com works
What is a Mother Tree ?

Burra Maluca

out to pasture

Posts: 12484

Location: Portugal

3346

I like...

posted 1 year ago

7
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Bronwyn Olsen wrote:I am very interested in your progress. I have property in Northern California where fire is always a concern. I hesitate in spending limited funds on desired plants and trees because of this.

I'll be updating with photos of things that survive!

As for funds, I'm fully with you on that. Someone recommended vetiver grass, but I just saw the price of it and there's no way I could afford enough to make any appreciable difference, plus the work of planting it all when I'm so very low on energy. I really need the biggest bang per buck possible.

More expensive fruit trees and such go on the terrace at the front of the house, which is far less likely to burn as it's lower down, away from the forest and is near where any fire fighting efforts will be concentrated. It's also where we can water them more easily. The terrace behind the house is for the trees that require less water, and the fire did take some of those, though the quince is recovering well. Higher up, on the top terrace and the forest itself, gets virtually no care so anything that goes up there tends to be from seed or cuttings that we raise ourselves.

On a more positive note, it's obvious that the olive trees have been there a very long time, and the seller told us that one of the walnut trees in the ravine was 70 years old, planted by his father, and the other one was young at 50 years and that he'd planted it himself. So it's safe to say that fires don't destroy everything very often here.

How permies.com works
What is a Mother Tree ?

Burra Maluca

out to pasture

Posts: 12484

Location: Portugal

3346

I like...

posted 1 year ago

10
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I spent a lot of time thinking last night, when I should have been sleeping, and remembered an exercise I was given in a course on Celtic spirituality.

I was supposed to take some bird seed and scatter in in a place in nature that felt special to me. Being a stubborn sort of creature, I refused. it just felt so wrong to me to spend money to bring commercially grown seeds and grains to my land and scatter them for no good purpose other than to help me bond to the land. I actually felt that it would alienate me from the land more than bond me to it. So I told my tutor that I would not be doing that part of the exercise but that I would grow appropriate shrubs to plant there that would give berries to feed the birds in a more sustainable, long term manner.

My tutor tried to argue with me, so I just completed the course without her input as I no longer had any respect for her.

My values, my land, my decision.

Today I feel as burned out as my land, so I took some time to just rest. Yesterday I went hunting chestnuts, which aren't quite ready yet, and acorns, of which I found precisely two.

I think the recent heavy rains have knocked them all down and the wildlife has already eaten them all. So tomorrow I'm going walking lower down, below the house, where the boar rarely visit. I may find acorns, I may find chestnuts, I know I will find hawthorn berries, and I will gather whatever I can find. If I find grasses with seed heads I will gather those. We will go for a trip up to the neighbouring mountain range soon to gather rowan berries if there are any left. I have young almond and chestnut and walnut trees that can be planted out, and a few young rowan and elder. I do have some young oak that can be moved later in the year, but they aren't a species that is likely to do well on the mountain so they will probably be planted lower down. And will take what seed I can find from pretty much anything native and local and scatter it as best I can. I will walk where I want the paths to be and just continue walking the same paths as often as I have the energy to get up there, which should keep them relatively free of the cistus that will inevitably attempt to take over. And I will read and re-read the suggestions here, and everything that seems relevant in the Social Forestry book, and do what I can that feels right. Facilitate recovery, not shape and manipulate. Help, not control.

I'll keep sharing updates and photos!

How permies.com works
What is a Mother Tree ?

Bronwyn Olsen

Posts: 26

posted 1 year ago

1
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Jay Angler wrote:

Bronwyn Olsen wrote:I am very interested in your progress. I have property in Northern California where fire is always a concern. I hesitate in spending limited funds on desired plants and trees because of this.

This is the second reason that many permies members start plants from seed - limited funds. I don't have the space/ecosystem to put seeds straight in the ground and not have a deer or slug munch the lot of them, but I still start many plants by either seed in pots or by rooting cuttings. Many people are happy to let you take cuttings if you ask nicely, and many fruit seeds will produce fruit that is tasty enough and those seeds could come from groceries, or better yet, a farmer's market where the fruit is grown locally.

That said, I've also let it be known that I'll accept trees as birthday presents! I don't need fancy clothes, or dust collectors, but another Goji berry bush would be welcome! (I started some from seed in the spring with difficulty. I put them on the porch to harden off and a slug came by one night and ate the lot of them. I was seriously ticked, but I'll just have to try again!)

Bronwyn Olsen

Posts: 26

posted 1 year ago

1
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Thanks, I have been collecting and starting seeds and cuttings.Excellent advice! I feel the same about gifts…books are great too!

Jane Mulberry

master pollinator

Posts: 1012

Location: East of England/ Northeast Bulgaria

378

I like...

posted 1 year ago

4
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Burra Maluca wrote:Today I feel as burned out as my land, so I took some time to just rest.

I'm so glad you took the time to rest. You need to give yourself time to recover. This is as much a trauma for you as your land, and you're wise to extend the same care and nurture to yourself.

I'm only 64! That's not to old to learn to be a permie, right?

Burra Maluca

out to pasture

Posts: 12484

Location: Portugal

3346

I like...

posted 1 year ago

11
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I've been collecting haws from hawthorn, Crateagus monogyna to throw into the forest to see if any grow.

They seem to do well here and give plenty of fruit for the wildlife. The leaves are edible too - known as 'bread-and-cheese' in the UK. And gorgeous white blossoms known as May in the UK, giving its name to the mayflower, though they flower in late March to April here in Portugal. They seem to like growing down the front of the terrace walls. I'm not sure if that's their preference or just that they tend to get removed on the main terraces so that's where they get pushed to, but I think maybe I'll put seeds along the top of the terrace at the front of the forest, and then in a few other patches around the place.

This bit is growing down the terrace wall at the back of my veggie garden. We decided it was far easier to cut a few branches off and take them indoors for me to strip sitting down. The lore in Wales was that you should never cut hawthorn without specific permission from the tree, but in the circumstances I'm going to assume the tree will understand my motives and be in full support.

Then we found some more growing down a terrace wall at my son's place so I cut some more.

We were careful to take only around 20% of the available fruit so as to leave plenty for the birds, who are going to be short of food anyway with so much forest burned.

And I ended up with two nice bowls of haws to seed the forest with.

Interesting how much bigger the fruit off one of the plants was compared to the other. I intend to mix them up in case the genetics of one tree is better suited to wherever I happen to throw the seed.

Does anyone have any experience with direct sowing hawthorn? I know that I will never be able to give the care transplants are likely to need, and I thought that if I throw these around now, ideally just before rain, they should sink down through the ash where they will hopefully be out of sight of hungry critters and the rains will encourage the flesh to rot away, and hopefully the winter chills will encourage them to germinate in the spring. These things grow wild around here so I guess the genetics is adapted to the climate.

And then, as it's the solstice in a few hours, I think this is a very appropriate image to share. From one of my favourite artists Wendy Andrew

How permies.com works
What is a Mother Tree ?

Mark Beard

Posts: 59

posted 1 year ago

4
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Generally regular fires favor trees like Oak. So,perhaps it’s good to have had the fire and cleared the pine.

It looks like a big job and steep land.

Maybe something easier to do would be to put in a trail or road that can be kept clear around the property to serve as a fire break. And then, as trees come back you could cut down the pines in favor of the hard woods…. And potentially do controlled burns to suppress the other growth you don’t want and to keep things clear of an abundance of flammable litter such as what caused this large fire

That’s my two cents

Burra Maluca

out to pasture

Posts: 12484

Location: Portugal

3346

I like...

posted 1 year ago

9
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Time for a bit of an update.

We made a planting stick out of a sharpened shovel handle with a bit of old water pipe taped to it to drop seeds down and a bit of rescued plywood bolted on for me to step on to push it down into the earth. I'm not very strong, but I have plenty of weight to throw around so we thought it would be better to put that weight to use and save my back. The problem is the solution after all!

I put a hundred haws from the local hawthorn bushes into my waist bag and went up to see what was happening.

The burned out apricot tree is sprouting from the base! Much more grass is starting to regrow on the terrace, and the bracken is starting to make the forest area look quite green again. Excuse the plushy dragon, she is named after the mountain range and and wanted to come up with me to see what was happening...

One of the oaks up in the forest is sprouting from the trunk!

I wanted to test the planting stick by putting haws down fairly close to the edge of the terrace wall. They seem fond of sprawling over the edge of terrace walls and I'm imagining that one day the whole bank might be covered in white may blossom in the spring and red berries in the autumn, which appeals to me greatly. Especially as the thorns will cause minimal disturbance there!

The bracken is growing well, and the stick worked well. It took a bit of practice to aim the tube correctly to get the haws down the hole, but I got over 80% in first time. I think bigger seed like acorns and chestnuts will behave better and not whiz down the tube in spirals and shoot out at odd angles like the haws do. The design of the stick at the moment means that the tube finishes a few inches above the point of the stick, which I have to pull out of the hole and set back a bit before releasing the seed. I may modify it if I can't get closer to a 95% hit rate, maybe by putting a collapsible sleeve over the end of the tube, or possibly by making the tube removable from the pointy stick.

This is me getting into the swing of things, sorting out seeds to drop down the tube, taken from the terrace below.

While I was busy up there, my other half carved out a little seat for me at the bottom of the terrace wall for me to rest on. Which was VERY much appreciated!

We've also been collecting acorns of various sorts, and some special chestnuts. And have been promised some locally grown macadamia nuts!

More soon...

How permies.com works
What is a Mother Tree ?

Abraham Palma

gardener

Posts: 1025

Location: Málaga, Spain

366

I like...

posted 1 year ago

5
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Hello Burra,
I am impressed, so much work, so much to do.

I wonder if you would be allowed to plant some cacti and succulents. Here in Malaga we have many prickly pears in the hills, which don't burn easily, hold the ground even in the worst heat, and provide some food. Too bad they are suffering a plague. But grown in small batches that shouldn't be a problem.
Portulacaria afra is also a well known plant for reforestation that creates a nice soil, grows slowly but effortlessly and prevents wildfires.
Both grow well from cuttings.

A thought: The forest didn't burn because of the sparks, it burnt because it was too dry. It shouldn't be that dry. When that happens very often, I think that's because the plants are no longer adapted to the current climate.

https://permies.com/t/175744/permaculture-sites/permaculture-projects/Project-Gardens-Orchard-Dignity

Burra Maluca

out to pasture

Posts: 12484

Location: Portugal

3346

I like...

posted 1 year ago

8
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I did have some young prickly pear planted on the terrace behind the house, most of which burned. Also some on the top terrace, which I believe are all gone.

I'm very encouraged to see the few oaks that were there growing back so quickly, which is why I'm keen to plant more oak. I'm still undecided about cork oak, partly because they tend to grow rather large, which might be too much for the thin soil on the slope to support, and partly because it will encourage too much intrusion onto the land to harvest, and I'd rather set it up for minimal intrusion except by us, on foot.

My gut feeling is to get my bit of forest to be the bit that survives any future fire. When we bought it four years ago it had been mostly cleared a few years previously and was thick with cistus, which is a terrible fire hazard, and young pines. Eventually the cistus will die off under the pines, but by then pines are harvested, the soil is disturbed, and the cycle starts again. I thought that if I seed there with things like oak and chestnut and gradually weed out any pines that show up, and keep the cistus under control as much as I am able, eventually the cistus will die off again and leave the place relatively fire proof. Most of the forest up there is pine with cistus growing underneath. It's almost never allowed to complete the natural succession of cistus then pine then oak, and gradually the seed bank for the oak is diminishing, hence I want to put acorns down.

I intend to replace the prickly pear on the top terrace, but not into the actual forest area. I'd rather keep that native as much as possible.

There are a lot of acacia around which burn like crazy. They are also nearly impossible to eradicate as they grow back twenty fold if you cut them.

I also found out that the reason there are no chestnuts on our side of the mountain is that blight hit early last century. They still grow on the north facing side, but not the south facing side. My neighbours tried many times to get one growing and only succeeded when they bought one grafted onto a blight resistant rootstock. However, I was very lucky to find someone further along the mountain with two old chestnut trees which have survived. It might be because they were lucky and the blight never reached their patch, or it might be because they are naturally resistant, but I've managed to blag a big bag of chestnuts from them, with the promise of more to follow. So I'm going to plant a lot of seed up there in the most promising looking patch, and also try to grow some nearer to the house, just in case we get any blight resistant ones growing on their own roots.

I've tried growing chestnuts here a couple of years ago and always lost them, but assumed I'm planted them out too soon and was too lax with the watering during August. This time I'll keep a patch near the house, grown directly in the soil, and make sure water isn't the problem. Then if any survive I'll know it's likely to be because of good blight-resistant genetics. I'm not terribly hopeful that any will survive up in the forest, but I do think it's worth a try to plant some seed out and see they can do. If I don't try, they're not likely to return by themselves. At least, not in my lifetime!

I was hoping to get up there today to start acorn planting but I wasn't up to it. Pacing my self is so hard, and it seems that the more I look forward to doing something, the more I burn out in anticipation. Which sucks. I need to keep calm, not plan too thoroughly, and grab opportunities as they arise without getting too emotionally attached to doing certain things on certain days. It's not always easy...

How permies.com works
What is a Mother Tree ?

Burra Maluca

out to pasture

Posts: 12484

Location: Portugal

3346

I like...

posted 1 year ago

9
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I don't believe that Portulacaria afra is native, but we do have purslane, Portulaca oleracea, which might fill some of the same roles. I have a load growing as weeds around the house. I'm due to pick some to make soup, and as it's seeding like crazy at the moment I should shake it out into a bag to catch as much of the seed as I can and then go and scatter it around up in the forest.

Alentejo-style purslane soup

How permies.com works
What is a Mother Tree ?

Abraham Palma

gardener

Posts: 1025

Location: Málaga, Spain

366

I like...

posted 1 year ago

5
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Five or six years ago, chestnut posts almost dissapeared from our streets.
You know, we used to have many chestnut posts that sold roasted chestnuts in late automn, and we loved to have one or two diners of just roasted sweet potatoes and chestnuts. Then, only a few posts remained. That might be that blight you mentioned.

https://permies.com/t/175744/permaculture-sites/permaculture-projects/Project-Gardens-Orchard-Dignity

Jane Mulberry

master pollinator

Posts: 1012

Location: East of England/ Northeast Bulgaria

378

I like...

posted 1 year ago

1
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Burra Maluca wrote:I don't believe that Portulacaria afra is native, but we do have purslane, Portulaca oleracea, which might fill some of the same roles. I have a load growing as weeds around the house. I'm due to pick some to make soup, and as it's seeding like crazy at the moment I should shake it out into a bag to catch as much of the seed as I can and then go and scatter it around up in the forest.

Alentejo-style purslane soup

That soup looks delicious, Burra! I must try making it next time I'm at the Bulgarian house.

I'm only 64! That's not to old to learn to be a permie, right?

It means our mission is in jeapordy! Quick, read this tiny ad!

turnkey permaculture paradise for zero monies

https://permies.com/t/267198/turnkey-permaculture-paradise-monies