Help me express disagreement

Hi.

I am trying to assimilate Paul's rule about being nice, not just in this forum. One thing that helps is that I've changed my mind on some topics, and the man I was back then would have been very dismissive about what I think today. By the same logic, I can see anyone who disagrees with me as a younger version of themselves, or I could see me as someone who still may change his mind in the future.

In other words; I think the other person is wrong, but it is me who could be wrong, and even in the case that I am right, I could do better than being rude with that person because sometimes it is I who was wrong, and I didn't like to be treated that way.

So far, for the state of mind. But then I need to find the words.


The case in point is a new volonteer who has the idea of implementing hydroponics. I think they are wrong for our site for several reasons. It's an expense we cannot afford with our resources (we could try a crowdfunding if the project merits, though). The place is a focus for vandalism and theft, anything of value that is not fixed on the ground gets broken or stolen. We do not have access to the grid. I don't have a deep knowledge of this system, but if it requires maintenance, we cannot provide much. It is advertised as saving water for irrigation, but it still requires water for irrigation, which sometimes we just do not have. Last time we were two months without any water, even the earthworms died.

I cannot help but think that it's also against the low tech, high resilient system I want to implement. I use high tech in my daily life, the fact that I am writing here proves it. However, I am very concerned that it won't last, maybe in a few years, maybe in a few generations, what we are giving for granted might not be available anymore, such as electric pumps. So I want to have some demonstration that living without all the goodies from the industrial world is possible. The hydroponics contradicts this vision.
And while I am aware that we could do both things, a corner featuring hydroponics, another corner featuring syntropic gardening, and I am also aware that we are in need of some temporary technologies for the transition into the low tech future, somehow I do not feel comfortable with the idea.

So I have practical reasons and egotistical reasons against the hydroponics in our site, and I cannot completely discard that the former is influenced by the latter.

I would like to express all of the above without hurting her feelings (we are in much need of new volonteers!), although we already have the option of telling her that she is allowed to try, but no one is required to help her if we do not feel like it (it is a rule we implemented long ago, precisely for these cases).

When working with people in real  time, rather than on the internet, the 'be nice' rule is even more important. Here, you can write your answer, read it through, make adjustments and come back to it tomorrow, so there is few excuses for 'I didn't mean it'. In real life you have to think it through before you open your mouth and consider what you say as you say it.
You say that you feel you could be wrong as well. You have an opinion that you have based on your experiences and expections and desires. This person also has her experiences and dreams and both are right for you at this time, so the thing to do is to see if you can come to a common agreement.

I don't know how your community makes its decisions, but my suggestion would be to first encourage her -" it's really good to get new people on board, we're so happy you want to help us out here, it would be great to demonstrate how this technology can provide food...."
Then raise the issues you have difficulty with and see if as a team you can find ways of overcoming them.

I would discuss the water first, since you can't have hydroponics without water! Where could the water come from, what if there was no water for three months like in 2010 (or whenever) how would the system cope. If you can't demonstrate that is works then it will actually discourage people from doing it.

Presumably since you mention grid access it needs electric power for pumps and things? We had a thread a whileback that talked about alternative methods: clockwork, thermal pumps, human powered, maybe one of these would be workable and fit more with your low tech desires.

Then gently, vandalism. Can you think of ways of making it more robust, less of a target? Maybe start a thread on that one, or there may be threads already for ideas.

Lastly since it is really the one that shouldn't be a barrier - money. How much do you need? Could you do a small system for less, can you get sponsorship, scavenge materials (may help with the vandalise problem if the equipment is not new looking). Open up and tell her how much money you have. How does she think the money could be raised?

Hopefully if you talk it through with her, and whomever else of the volunteers are available, calmly showing that you are listening to her (and that she listens to you) you will get through this either with an awesome low tech hydroponic system and a new volunteer, or a new volunteer, that knows her ideas are listened to, valued and not dismissed out of hand.

I've probably been a bit too specific in my answers, but I hope it was of some help.

my suggestion would be to first encourage her -" it's really good to get new people on board, we're so happy you want to help us out here, it would be great to demonstrate how this technology can provide food...."
Then raise the issues you have difficulty with and see if as a team you can find ways of overcoming them.

Yes. Great thing I forget about.

Hopefully if you talk it through with her, and whomever else of the volunteers are available, calmly showing that you are listening to her (and that she listens to you) you will get through this either with an awesome low tech hydroponic system and a new volunteer, or a new volunteer, that knows her ideas are listened to, valued and not dismissed out of hand.

Hmm. I think this is the big deal. In order to listen to her properly, I have to let myself be open to her ideas. Then critizise them in a constructive way. I'll meditate on it.

Nancy is such a great mentor for these sorts of issues and has some great words as well as done some great work.
Like you, we have long periods of drought ( last one about 7 years) and had the problem with the neighbours cows causing a huge amount of damage, including destroying the pipes and standing in the water tanks.  Then the Kangaroos ate the plants that the cows did not destroy.  Believe me when I say that I feel for you.  From my experience, the hydroponics is doable reasonably cheaply with some planning.

We put up a vermin fence which is about 2 metres high with a barb on the bottom, centre and as the top strainer wire.  It is not cheap but certainly a deterrent. Over time, we collect what we will need in the way of stores and looked at cheap options.  For example we used 200 litre olive drums cut in half longways for some grow beds and an old 3,000 litre cattle watering trough as the main reservoir.

Our other big addition was to add fish to the reservoir instead of adding hydroponic solution.  The fish are an added bonus - and tasty.   If anyone comes up with an idea, I ask them to come back with a plan.  Other things which can be made is a centrifugal filter to take out the fish poo for your other garden(s).   In planning for the eventual drought, we have a rainwater tank.  A couple of solar panels and battery set up with a high efficiency water fall pump works a treat.  Once the water is pushed up to about 2 metres, gravity does the rest.

There is some great stuff out there.  And as Nancy says encourage her.  In time, she will identify where the barriers are and either come up with a work around or why it cannot be done.  Either way it is a win for everyone.
Best wishes

Show her the post you just made. Ask her to help you  find a solution.

Encourage the person to develop a written plan that nails down the realities of the vision -- lists of required equipment, installation costs, footprint, power needs, maintenance, backup systems, etc. Being forced to consider what's behind the hypnotic shiny object can be a very sobering experience.

I have no idea of the proposed project. Have you thought of a low tech solution to electric pumps? That seems to be your first concern. Windmill pumps have been around a long time. Ram pump? Rain water harvesting?  How would you design a low cost, low tech hydroponic system. Can the system be watered from an IBC tote that is filled when water is plentiful. Vandalism sucks, in our community greenhouse I placed the solar battery banks, pumps and aerators under IBC totes filled with water to prevent theft. Take a moment and see if you can come up with solutions to your objections that would let the proposal work. Point out your concerns and talk with her about them. Including her in addressing real problems you see, will give her a sense of inclusiveness. Accepting her idea but asking how to address your concerns.  Pumps, water vandalism, brainstorm with other volunteers. It is so hard to maintain and expand volunteer bases a hard "no" can chase them away. Encouraging ideas, projects and problem solving with volunteers give them a connected desire to return.  Would, let's say rain water collection be adventageous in other parts of the plot? Could her hydroponic system be an value added system if it collected excess water?  Love the idea but what about? Initial open minded acceptance and then asking about how to address obvious problems. One needs to develop a solution based mindset when presented with new ideas that come along. It might not happen but proposed solutions might turn the light on for other projects.

Hi Abraham,
You have received quite a few good answers about the hydroponics itself. I think they are good responses, but I have not seen anyone address your thoughts on hydroponics not being right for this project. I might disagree with some of your reasons, but the fact is that you have a vision for the direction this project should take. I would ask what is the structure of this project? Are you in charge? Is there a group or committee of some sort?

If the leadership of the project don't want hydroponics, then it doesn't really matter the reasons why. I might express some of the reasons that were used to choose not to do hydroponics, but in the end, different projects focus on different things. I would be up front and honest. We are so happy to have you hear, there is a great need for volunteers, and we hope you will be a great help on this project. It is not our intention to squash new ideas, but at this time, we do not feel that hydroponics aligns with our goals. Then maybe share some of the reasons.

The second possibility is that the leadership is open to hydroponics, but don't think it will work due to money, water, etc. In that case, I like the idea of having the volunteer write something up explaining how she would deal with those issues. We are so happy to have you here, there is a great need for volunteers, and we hope you will be a great help on this project. We have some concerns that the hydroponics may not work here, and we would like to work with you to determine if there is a way.

Yes, the vision. Thank you Matt.

Before I proposed the project, they were all tired and frustrated trying to manage something they weren't able to manage. Very often we run out of water, very often nobody could go to the orchard, very often they planted plants that would not survive without extreme care.
I proposed to have a garden that suit us, not us trying to suit an ideal garden and then failing.

We had to be honest with ourselves before changing the paradigm, because we were deluding ourselves too long thinking we could have our pie and eat it, and suffering when the outcome wasn't good. Now the garden is (very) slowly progressing.

This is, allowing difficult plants to die, irrigating when we can plants that benefit from but do not require irrigation, and setting ourselves tasks that are not perceived as chores, which we could leave unattended and nothing bad would happen. In addition, I proposed a guide for working at leisure that didn't require to know what the other gardeners did before, no planning, no orders. Low cost, low maintenance, maybe low yields, but zero stress. Working along with nature.

If this hydroponic system requires any kind of commitment or money from us, it is likely to fail, as the previous projects failed.

Another thing you could introduce is the concept of "skin in the game." If someone proposes solutions that involve significant inputs and are at risk of loss to any sort of adverse event (theft, vandalism, drought, flood, fire, etc.) then they might be showing different risk tolerance depending on who puts up the capital to provide the inputs.

When it's your own seed money and hard work that goes to building something, you want it to be resilient because you can't afford to keep rebuilding. When someone proposes crowdfunding a high-tech solution, they may be offloading the risk onto the "investors" and not fully considering the full cost. There are certainly plenty of examples of this behaviour in the world of technology -- the "move fast and break things" motto always seems to come from someone who's playing with somebody else's money.

To use an example, I could get a roll of plastic netting to fence off a garden area from chickens or wildlife. I would need to also invest some of my time in putting up the fence. Then, when the plastic degrades from exposure to sun and weather, I spend the time cleaning it up and think about replacing it...with more plastic? Or, I could build a junkpole fence for very little money but more of my time collecting poles, and maybe a little more of my time in construction. As it weathers, I replace poles when needed and the spent ones feed the soil or the RMH. Which solution respects my available resources and is more resilient over the long term?

Hydroponic systems introduce dependencies, as you described. What are the risks from a dependency that fails?

Abraham, am I remembering correctly that you've done some small scale experimenting with wicking beds? Have you considered asking the volunteer if she's tried those as a lower tech version than aquaponics?

It still requires water, but systems like aquaponics and wicking beds are usually focused on short cycle annuals like lettuce. The garden would loose less if water became unavailable. If she did her best to time things and plan things for a certain amount of water, I could see it working. For example, if she got several plastic barrels and upcycled them with taps and filled them when rain was plentiful, she could plant her wicking crops with an estimate of how long her barrels of water would last.

I recognize that in your mind, you're trying to have the garden as independent as possible. I respect that. I know someone who suddenly found out just how inconvenient reality is when one's well suddenly can't deliver water. Your concerns are real, but it fits with the Wheaton Eco Scale - the volunteer may still be at Level 0 and isn't ready to consider what a "no water" world will be like. At least she's interested in growing food. That might get her moving towards Level 1. If you can find a compromise with her, she might hang around long enough for better permaculture principles to rub off on her.

At this point we are willing to make some concessions, since the project cannot continue without more people.
We've been discussing if we should allow volonteers to have their own beds, which goes against the spirit of the founders.

My usual response when someone asks to plant a banana tree is, sure, plant it, but we won't be able to care for it. Spoiler: this is an awful climate for banana trees.
It might be that I am spoiled about the aquaponic systems that I've seen on youtube, so much complexity, so many plastics, so much maintenance, so many things that could go wrong without someone supervising. I can see how it can be an improvement over other farming techniques, in a farm with a farmer looking for his investment, but I see so many difficulties using it here, with our (lazy hobbyist) conditions, that I couldn't make myself think that maybe there's a low tech, high resilient way of implementing it.

The wicking pots, actually are immersion pots, is just an example. Plants do not survive for long in these pots, their purpose is helping roots develop longer so they can survive when actually planted on the ground. The first advantage is that they are made from used milk bottles, so they are not stolen. The second advantage is that it allows me to water once a week, even in the hottest part of summer (consider that other pots require daily watering, sometimes twice a day). The risk is that it can develop anaerobic conditions. To prevent this, the reservoir is about 25% of the pot size, and I am transplanting them as soon as roots are showing below. If the water in the reservoir smells fool, I throw away the water and let the plant recover.
This is not better than the common pot for normal cases, but it is what works in our garden because sometimes two weeks have passed before anyone could water any pot.

When I ask my uncle who is a farmer about how to do this or that, he cannot provide good advice because he starts with the assumption that we are going to work. We are not there for the work, we have already other jobs, this is our place for solace. We want to enjoy the garden, not suffer because of it. This very topic is what most people have difficulty grasping.

We have just attended a food and film evening.  And to say that I am totally blown away is an understatement!
 
I have found this clip on YouTube.  They have a very simple aquaponics system with zero outside inputs, which is what I think is the issue where you are is - in particular water input.
Costa is an Australian gardener who pushes the boundaries as well as a TV presenter amongst other things.  Hope this can help you to look at work arounds with the new volunteer.


In health care we have these "magnetic hospitals" where health professionals are just about willing to do anything to work there.  Just putting it out there: what if you created a magnetic soil to supping environment where as part of the experience, people could dine on what they grow?  From my reading of the posts above and your willingness to look at alternatives, you can achieve it.  visualise, research, plan, and step off.  Start small then grow with the volunteers.
Best wishes and don't forget, this is the best family to be a part of because for every issue, at least one of us has found a solution.  I for one would love to see your project as it grows.

I have not read all the replies, my first thought, is that this is a new volunteer. Tread lightly and try to work with her.  Volunteers are not always easy to come by.

Why not try to suggest an alternative, just to get a conversation started?

Maybe a kiddy pool with goldfish and some water-loving plants.

Or suggest trying the Kratky method of hydroponics:

https://permies.com/t/118355/Hydroponics-test-big-Kratky-barrel

Or even something like this:

https://www.appropedia.org/Hydroponic_vertical_garden_at_Sembradores_Urbanos
from this thread:

https://permies.com/t/1524/hydroponics#53189

I hope you will let the forum know how things turned out with whatever you decide.

Abraham,

One lesson that I have painfully learned over the years/still am learning is just how hard it is to convince someone that they are wrong, especially once an idea sprouts and takes root in their mind.  At a psychological level once we get an idea that we have conjured up on our own, we get attached to that idea in a way that alters our own cognition.  It becomes very personal because it actually becomes a part of us.  Direct challenges, even if the other idea is patently crazy, rarely succeed precisely because those challenges feel like personal invective.  Clearly you already appreciate this conundrum.

My thoughts are to offer alternative perspectives.  Maybe say something along the lines of “my thoughts are…..”. In this way, your challenge comes off as an IDEA you have and not a direct CHALLENGE to the other person.  Sometimes honey catches more flies than vinegar.  People are more likely to be persuaded with agreement than disagreement.

These are just my thoughts.  There has been a lot of good commentary thus far, so by all means consider those perspectives as well, perhaps even before considering my thoughts.

I wish you luck with difficult challenges that you have ahead of you.

Eric

I'd start with: something like. Wow it would be great to be able to have some tasty food ... in this dry climate, we can hardly keep the cactus growing... I'd like to hear your ideas to overcome the.... try sharing in their excitement 1st, then nudge them along to exploring the strengths and weakness of the plan. life is full of pros/cons, risks/rewards.... help get them thru the process of setting up a project. Set clear  goals, list 3 objective steps to work towards the goals. work the plan to help the idea succeed, maybe just not in the fashion they originally thought. 4-H has a great youth program for teaching life skills. see if you can pickup one of the 4H project books on gardening, it will give you some structure and steps to help inexperienced folks learn new skills. Good on you for seeking advise on alternative ways to approach the issue!

Abraham Palma wrote:When I ask my uncle who is a farmer about how to do this or that, he cannot provide good advice because he starts with the assumption that we are going to work. We are not there for the work, we have already other jobs, this is our place for solace. We want to enjoy the garden, not suffer because of it. This very topic is what most people have difficulty grasping.

Totally! My friend has a "volunteer" who comes to help her with her bantum chickens. He does regularly dump and rinse the water buckets, but he rarely "scrubs" them. He's ready to hold a chicken if she needs to clip their toe nails - makes the job easier, but not what a farmer would consider "work". He does the odd job that requires a saw or drill, if it doesn't require a lot of speed or skill. He comes because he loves the fresh air and gentle exercise an he loves watching all the wild and domestic birds in the field. He's there to nourish his soul. His real work is awaiting in his shop at home.

I think you're very wise to be recognizing and acknowledging the real goals of your volunteers. Permaculture often looks easy, but I think that's because the people you see doing it, are so experienced they make it look easy, and it is their "job".

Hey, Paul,
maybe it does not fit exactly in this project, but I see other places where I could apply the ideas.
Particularily, there's a lack of urban thinking in the permaculture community where I live, and I love how this TV shows focus precisely on that.

Abraham Palma wrote:Particularly, there's a lack of urban thinking in the permaculture community where I live, and I love how this TV shows focus precisely on that.

I had two bins of "pretty" veggies on my front porch this year. They did get some rain water, but often they got watered from the water in the tap that I had to let run to get the hot water to show up. So water that most people would just let run down the drain gave me kale, lettuce, green onion, parsley and beans. OK, it was the flowers planted with, that most people would call "pretty", but who says veggies and flowers can play nicely together? There were many more veggies than flowers and I did try to choose "pretty veggies".

Eric Toensmeier has a book on the importance of urban permaculture. People with children and the elderly both benefit from the support systems that urban and city life can provide more easily. However, an attitude shift from "just ornamentals" to "grow some quality food" in you neighborhood would make a huge difference in quality of life for many people.

Good old fashioned Pros vs Cons list. Create short, bulleted lists for both the pros and cons. Based on what you've mentioned, I'd assume the cons would outweigh the pros, at least at this time.

And bulleting out the lists keeps things concise.

When it comes to common sense, I think we sometimes need to be able to have 'that conversation', even if someone feels hurt or triggered. Common sense should prevail in most aspects.

For instance; if cost, theft/vandalism, and your wanting to do things without such 'technology' far outweigh the pros of moving forward with the project, then it should be discussed.. and why. More importantly, regardless of your thoughts on the matter, common sense should prevail. i.e. Facts over opinions. It does not make common sense, in my mind, to move forward with the project if the cost is a factor - only to have the project stolen and/or vandalized - or for you to run out of water during the weeks/months of the year it's a regular issue. Especially, if an alternative is easier, cheaper, and less likely to be stolen or vandalized.

In any case, I would recommend that baby steps be taken and things implemented to circumvent the 'cons' prior to proceeding with the project. What about rain water collection so you have a valid source of water during those days when you run out? What about site security so this investment (of money, time, and energy) is not wasted?