a new idea for the bootcamp

Earlier this year, we finished up the stuff about the acre, the event gifts and some other things because word got back to me that people that were considering the bootcamp were mathing it out weird.  Instead of "spend two years at a permaculture school and then get an acre as a bonus" it was being mathed out as "go work at mcdonalds for two years and then buy an acre anywhere."  This seemed really messed up to me, because

   a:  i doubt anybody working at mcdonalds can save up enough to buy an acre anywhere

   b:  the bootcamp builds your skills with natural building and gardening, which mcdonalds does not do

   c:  i sure hope that two years in the bootcamp is a thousand times more enjoyable than two years at mcdonalds

But, when people are doing wonky math, they do the math quickly and leave - i never get a chance to show my math.

So we shut that down - it was doing the opposite of what we wanted.

At the same time, I very much wish to accelerate all of our projects here.  I would like to see 20 people in the bootcamp over the holidays.  I like when we have a great group of boots here.  It is just deeply delightful and a powerful joy.  Our gardens make a huge leap forward and our natural building comes a long ways.


After a very long talk with stephen and fred, we came up with this idea.  Before making it official, I thought I would like to get some feedback about it.  Maybe in a couple of days I will make a new thread that makes it official.

4 years in the bootcamp leads to a cabin and an acre of garden


Allerton Abbery is nearly done. A beautiful wofati with an acre of hugelkultur gardens and a truly passive greenhouse.  The bootcamp will be putting the finishing touches on it over the next eight months or so.

I hereby pledge that ANY person that arrives and is active in the bootcamp by March 23, 2025  AND  they are active in the bootcamp for four years will be gifted an acre with a  cabin and robust permaculture garden.  Allerton Abbey or something similar.


First come, first serve.  So the people that start this month will have a head start over the people that start in march.  When the time comes, there could be four or five plots to choose from.  Including Allerton Abbey.

It is possible that 20 people come out now, and four of them make it to the four year mark.  In which case, we will need to use the very full bootcamp over the next four years to build three more one acre plots, complete with a cabin and a robust permaculture garden.

Allerton abbey is a product of the bootcamp.  There are heaps of perennial gardens there now.  The fruit trees are getting pretty big.  Stephen started a new hugelkultur there this year and is carfully measuring the calories being harvested from it.  Maybe 80,000.  I think that the food growing on the one acre plot at allerton abbey right now is enough to feed one person year round.  And next year it might be enough to feed four.

Here are some vids on this plot from a few years ago







When talking to people and asking about what is the value of allerton abbey with one acre, people say $200k to $400k.  So I think that this solves the earlier problem of people doing wonky math.


Here is what I want to accomplish with this:  fill the bootcamp asap.  After all these years, I wish to build community with people that have come through the bootcamp.  I want to see glorious gardens, lots of natural building and, most of all, a beautiful community.

My question to you all:   how do I optimize this idea?  What have I not thought of?  What do I need to mention in the official thread?

a bunch of stuff about the project as a whole


turbo tour:  65 things in 9 minutes




a few more things from over a year ago




several boots talking about the bootcamp a few years ago

Paul, I like it.  If I was 30 years younger, wellll, OK if I was 50 years younger, I'd jump on that offer like a chicken on a June bug!!

I can't think of anything you may have missed in making this offer.

If you want to add some coin to this plan, just say the word, I'll chip in!


Peace

Deane Adams wrote:Paul, I like it.  If I was 30 years younger, wellll, OK if I was 50 years younger, I'd jump on that offer like a chicken on a June bug!!

I can't think of anything you may have missed in making this offer.

If you want to add some coin to this plan, just say the word, I'll chip in!


Peace

Deane, I have been talking with Beau about doing a fundraiser for the BEL.  I think anything you want to put in there, would be a big help!

I was surprised to see the outdated boot camp perks eliminated and now even more surprised that the new perk is even bigger with the unknown risk of long term commitment. Wow, this is a crazy generous offer for the right person.

It sounds like your target demographic is a person with no attachments, probably in the 18-45 range, who has built up enough dough to cover living expenses for 4yrs. I know there are ways to earn money while at the lab. Does this offer extend to past boots who have already clocked some time?

I’m concerned that the barrier to entry is now even more steep (longer term commitment in a culture that’s been grooming shorter attention spans). Simultaneously, the reward is now even more grand but I’m undecided if it’s more or less of a leap for someone level 0-3.

I thought that the exchange for event tickets was nice so that there can be times of focused educational growth.

The time limit (referring to March 2025) is a little confusing. If someone currently has a commitment to something for the next 6months, then they’re out. I get that you want to find ways of accelerating filling the bootcamp. It would be a shame if a good candidate capable of making long term commitments is turned away based on this.

I also don’t know if I love the competitive nature of this offer. Edit: I reread the terms and verified that other people who complete four years can also get a cabin. It’s just the first person gets the grand prize. I have less of an issue with this as a competitive edge.

I wonder how large the pool of candidates is.

The reward of allerton abbey is dreamy!

It sounds like your target demographic is a person with no attachments, probably in the 18-45 range, who has built up enough dough to cover living expenses for 4yrs. I know there are ways to earn money while at the lab.

My impression is that anybody in the bootcamp leaves with more coin than they arrived with.

Of course, some people have cars that need insurance paid for, and some have phones that need to be paid for.  The BRK (now BEL) seems to provide plenty for that.  Although there have been other opportunities coming and going.

I do think that somebody with debts probably cannot make it work for more than a month or two.

Does this offer extend to past boots who have already clocked some time?

Yes, although only if the current high commander is okay with them coming back.  And there have been a couple hundred past boots (or seppers) that would be delightful to see them back.  And their past months would give them a head start.

I’m concerned that the barrier to entry is now even more steep (longer term commitment in a culture that’s been grooming shorter attention spans). Simultaneously, the reward is now even more grand but I’m undecided if it’s more or less of a leap for someone level 0-3.

People can still come for just a week, or month or whatever.  So the barrier to entry is the same it has always been.

The time limit (referring to March 2025) is a little confusing. If someone currently has a commitment to something for the next 6months, then they’re out.

Yes.  

I would like to fill the bootcamp and get my projects moving forward asap.  

The people that you are concerned about have had the bootcamp offered to them more than six months ago, and a year ago, and two years ago, and they declined.  And I feel like that all of the bootcamp, without this offer, is already very generous.  Where else can you attend a school like this, for free, complete with food and shelter?  

This idea is profound and delightful! Beyond generous.

I’ve never heard of a better deal. Hang out with great people engaging in cutting-edge permaculture practices, building your own skill set and a community, eating organic and beyond organic food which is provided, while sleeping in a warm bunk also provided.
Oh and at the end of 4 years of consistent, meaningful, and fun effort, here we’ll gift you an acre and a cabin.
For the first, a fully fledged WOFATI with years and years of soil building and love poured into it…

WOW!!!


A couple of items:
- what if the first person happens to prefer one of the other plots, would that imply another person could select the Abbey? (Definitely could be a “cross that bridge when we get there” topic)

- would the individual need to step into a larger role (e.g.: high commander, Evelyn, etc.) to be considered? I see the word “ANY” as long as they are “active” … is that the exclusive criteria you’re after? (Besides all the community standards, of course)

- until such time as it’s occupied by a permanent resident, would the premise, activities, and rentability of the Abbey remain largely unchanged?



I’ve been trying to think of ways to incentivize and advertise the bootcamp, this definitely takes care of incentive.
How do we get this in front of an audience ready to make the leap?

I know a few high school teachers, maybe a slick flier for them to put in a class?
Are you planning a new/dedicated YouTube video on the topic?
Maybe one of us could edit that for additional platforms?
I’m hoping this will take off of its own accord and grow into the viral video Wheaton Labs and Permies so vitally needs

I still think the drone shot(s) of the plot are one of the most stunning visuals which serves to capture the essence and sheer permaculture awesomeness of Allerton Abbey.
I feel that would be a phenomenal advertising technique (and, selfishly, I really want to see those shots again).

I love the Abbey.
I stayed for a week this spring, worked alongside the boots, came back in summer and fall, and I could genuinely see myself living there full time, forever. (I’m asking Cassie…)

Allerton Abbey is incredibly special, unique, and inspiring. With a little forethought and effort, I totally agree, the plot could easily support one and probably more like four people. Permaculture Paradise in Montana.

It would be a shame if a good candidate capable of making long term commitments is turned away based on this.

If the bootcamp becomes full in the next few months, then a lot of people will be turned away.  Of course, it would have been nice if these same people started with us many years ago.  

Also, I rather like the idea that if this project is a success, then it could be rubber stamped onto a thousand future communities.

I also don’t know if I love the competitive nature of this offer. Edit: I reread the terms and verified that other people who complete four years can also get a cabin. It’s just the first person gets the grand prize. I have less of an issue with this as a competitive edge.

I confess that I am a bit concerned about this too.  I just hope that it doesn't become a problem.

At the same time, the future plots that have a cabin and robust permaculture garden for this purpose, might be close enough in attractiveness.

paul wheaton wrote:

I also don’t know if I love the competitive nature of this offer. Edit: I reread the terms and verified that other people who complete four years can also get a cabin. It’s just the first person gets the grand prize. I have less of an issue with this as a competitive edge.

I confess that I am a bit concerned about this too.  I just hope that it doesn't become a problem.

At the same time, the future plots that have a cabin and robust permaculture garden for this purpose, might be close enough in attractiveness.

I also think that other cabins/plots could be worked over the next four years such that there are equally compelling options. So, perhaps less competitive and more of an incentive for a boot to be motivated to work on a cabin that could be theirs one day. I find that there needs to be some degree of ownership in a project to ignite intrinsic motivation.

I had concidered sepp to boot. My math worked out more like "it's freaky cold in Montana, location is remote-ish and people come and go inconsitantly". Finnance/time wasn't the issue.

Been on my grind since I left and now have dozens of people and a thousand acres to work with.

Keeping an eye on your projects Paul. I may need to borrow the mailing list though. I've got a big opportunity of my own to shout out soon.

what if the first person happens to prefer one of the other plots, would that imply another person could select the Abbey? (Definitely could be a “cross that bridge when we get there” topic)

I think that four years from now, there would be a person that is closing in on the finishing line.  And that person would make it clear that they want allerton abbey or some other option.  

I hope that this all works so well that there will be several options.

would the individual need to step into a larger role (e.g.: high commander, Evelyn, etc.) to be considered? I see the word “ANY” as long as they are “active” … is that the exclusive criteria you’re after? (Besides all the community standards, of course)

Stephen and Fred and I talked about that at length.  

First, it seems that when most people have been here for a few months, they naturally gravitate to a commander role (running point on a project or two - guiding some noobs).  But there have been some people where it is clear that they are gonna be a worker-bee-for-life and never a commander.  

At the same time, I think that the commander requirement of the past is something that has turned some people away.  

So at this time, there is no requirement for playing a commander role.

until such time as it’s occupied by a permanent resident, would the premise, activities, and rentability of the Abbey remain largely unchanged?

yes.

I’ve been trying to think of ways to incentivize and advertise the bootcamp, this definitely takes care of incentive.
How do we get this in front of an audience ready to make the leap?

I do have a mailing list of 127,000 people.  My guess is that I will tell those people in a week or so.  

If, on the other hand, you pop out and fill the bootcamp before then, then I won't tell them.  We will be full.  

Last I saw the Abbey parts were supported by jacks. Has that issue been resolved or is that something boots will do in the next 8 months?

Probably need a tour newer than 4 years. Generous offer though, i'll share it around.

Are you planning a new/dedicated YouTube video on the topic?

No.

I already have plans for 40 other videos i would like to get created in the next week or so for lots of reasons.  

A video about this would be temporary.  I hope just creating a thread here, and sharing with my mailing lists will be enough.  

Tj Simpson wrote:Last I saw the Abbey parts were supported by jacks. Has that issue been resolved or is that something boots will do in the next 8 months?

There is some work happening there now.  

Probably need a tour newer than 4 years. Generous offer though, i'll share it around.

I always thought that that "turbo tour" video would fill the bootcamp.  It didn't.  Damn.

Alexandra Malecki wrote:

I’m concerned that the barrier to entry is now even more steep (longer term commitment in a culture that’s been grooming shorter attention spans). Simultaneously, the reward is now even more grand but I’m undecided if it’s more or less of a leap for someone level 0-3.

Personally, I see that as a plus.  People with "shorter attention spans" are not well suited to homesteading in my opinion.  Homesteading is a long term endeavor, it's hard work, and it takes quite a few years to become somewhat "established".

This seems like an outstanding offer for the right person(s).

Two very different thoughts:  My husband and I want to rent Allerton Abbey, so the the thought of it being given away is sad to me!  I have been to Wheaton Labs twice (short-term boot 21, SkIP 24).  Waiting for SkIP 25 =)

My 18 year old son and I came to SkIP.  For him, the idea of Wheaton Labs Bootcamp didn't match the familiarity of "work and live at home for a year."  Dad and I offered to send him to Bootcamp - but at 18 that was less attractive than the known income he has.

I just asked - and he said the idea of having the cabin would have had him going.  The problem is he signed on with the Navy for 6 years and cannot take this offer now.

Paul may not remember Eli, but I know Mike does, and Dez and Fred may remember him from 3 years ago.  I think they know Eli would have been an asset.  The cabin at 4 years is more tangible.  

Plus - if you get cabins built, they could become rental income for the owners during events!

My prior understanding of the gifting of land at Wheaton labs is that the land does not come with a deed - it is more like a tenancy for life. That is, Allerton Abby might be worth $400k, but the boot who received it would not be able to sell it for that amount should they find themselves in need of the money. This should probably be laid out up front to avoid later confusion and disappointment.
Having casually followed the fate of the first iteration of ant village, it seemed like folks came with high hopes, and left with a lot of drama and heartache because the prize was not attainable for them. This is simpler because it is just a matter of sticking it out for 4 years - but that is a long time. If the goal is to help people succeed, then a good faq for this program would be important. For example: I assume boots would be allowed to stop the clock when they leave temporarily. how long can they pause for? A week, a month, a year? Also, what resources do they need? Since boots get room and board only, they presumably need savings to pay for clothing, phone bills, insurance, etc. I know there are bounties on jobs, but I also recall that a lot of people fail to finish the jobs and collect. Generally, I think the way to avoid drama and set everyone up for success is to balance making it sound dreamy with being realistic about what people will need to have and do in order to cross the finish line, as well as what they are actually getting at the end.
Personally, I’d be careful of framing at “after 4 years, you get a valuable house and property”, unless you truly plan to transfer the deed. Suggesting ownership of land sets up an idea in peoples minds of what their options are - namely, the ability to do whatever they want on and with their land - that doesn’t apply here. If t would be more accurate to describe it as a permanent, rent free spot in an intentional community with food systems and a beautiful house already in place. That makes it clear that the community rules will apply, and that the land ownership does not transfer. I am sure someone else could say it more poetically, probably involving gertitude.

Trace Oswald wrote:

Alexandra Malecki wrote:

I’m concerned that the barrier to entry is now even more steep (longer term commitment in a culture that’s been grooming shorter attention spans). Simultaneously, the reward is now even more grand but I’m undecided if it’s more or less of a leap for someone level 0-3.

Personally, I see that as a plus.  People with "shorter attention spans" are not well suited to homesteading in my opinion.  Homesteading is a long term endeavor, it's hard work, and it takes quite a few years to become somewhat "established".

This seems like an outstanding offer for the right person(s).

I mean, laughably, you’re definitely not wrong. I also think that to get world domination, you have to appeal to the average. But I suppose to build a model cmty at WL, you need the subset of people who are above the average.

That is the core of ant village:  to learn if you are an ant or a grasshopper.

Yes, people can leave and come back.  Easy peasy.  The only exception is if a person is asked to leave.

I think if a person leaves for three months or more, we might decide that they ended up missing the window for the cabin.  We'll see how it goes.  

The idea of the acre, from the past, was that it would be "for the next four plots" and then it remained open for years.  And finally, we closed it.

At this time, I like the appeal of building community with people that have been through four years of the bootcamp more than the people jumping straight into ant village or deep roots.  I think it is possible that it is time to bump up the price on those two programs so that they remain available, but less attractive.

maybe the title should be "turnkey permaculture paradise for zero monies"

??

paul wheaton wrote:At this time, I like the appeal of building community with people that have been through four years of the bootcamp more than the people jumping straight into ant village or deep roots.  I think it is possible that it is time to bump up the price on those two programs so that they remain available, but less attractive.

I don’t know how hard this info is to find, but if you want a good comparison- what is the cost to join and buy a house in an ecovillage in a comparable (rural montana type) area? It is still not a perfect comparison, since I think most ecovillages allow the sale of individual homes, but I suspect the buy in cost is more than most folks could save in 4 years. Framing it like that - 4 years of skill building labor in exchange for a lifetime spot in an ecovillage - I think gets closer to what you want to give away than a house and 4 acres, especially if ownership is not actually transferred. You could of course talk about what else they can do with it as an exit strategy (rent it out, sell the spot to an approved person? Whatever you are comfortable with), but it sounds like you want to attract people who will stay and create a community, so that should definitely be front and center.

paul wheaton wrote:maybe the title should be "turnkey permaculture paradise for zero monies"

Big fan of that title! In keeping with many of the other phrases and titles (“freaky-cheap” for example)
Attention grabbing and leaves me wanting to click the link to find out how…

The Abbey offer is generous, but it may be easier to get people to stay if they are personally interested in the acre.

Somewhat along the lines of the old after 4 month you have an acre to play with but mixing it with this idea of an acre with a dwelling After 4 years.

After 4 months as a boot start permaculture designing an acre (with Paul so it is acceptable).
After 6 months start working on the plan.
As they grow in time in the bootcamp more time is allocated to working on the structure. For example maybe at 6 months with only 4hrs a week and after 3 years being whatever is needed for the acre to be finished.

For Paul's proposed plan, the structures for the other 4 year graduates not getting the Abbey would also need to be built with boot time, but this way they are invested in the plan and the work.

I do like the idea of being personally invested in a plot, but I’m wondering about this:

Alex Ronan wrote:the structures for the other 4 year graduates not getting the Abbey would also need to be built with boot time

Could it be that, by filling the bootcamp, more interest in events like PTJ or even a dedicated WOFATI build event would be garnered?

I’ve wanted to build an earth sheltered dwelling since I heard about them as a teen. Could a broader community coalesce with the critical mass of the bootcamp so boots can have a broader focus?

paul wheaton wrote:maybe the title should be "turnkey permaculture paradise for zero monies"

??

Depends, who are you trying to attract? I think with that title you will give a lot of people looking for something for free.

I think the better group of people to look for are the ones willing to put in the hardwork.

Clay McGowen wrote:Could it be that, by filling the bootcamp, more interest in events like PTJ or even a dedicated WOFATI build event would be garnered?

It is possible (maybe likely) that depending on the size of the bootcamp that events would be needed to finish the additional structures in the next 4 years.

As you expressed, a lot of people are interested in natural building and seeing BEL post about boots building their structures would encourage more boots/SEPPers to visit to get hands on experience which they can use on their own place.

Could it be that, by filling the bootcamp, more interest in events like PTJ or even a dedicated WOFATI build event would be garnered?

I think "yes."  

I think all of our events get a powerful upgrade whenever we have an active bootcamp.

Alex Ronan wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:maybe the title should be "turnkey permaculture paradise for zero monies"

??

Depends, who are you trying to attract? I think with that title you will give a lot of people looking for something for free.

I think the better group of people to look for are the ones willing to put in the hardwork.

Can you throw some titles my way that you think might accomplish this?

I have fiddled with the text a bit

Allerton Abbery is nearly done. A beautiful wofati with an acre of hugelkultur gardens and a truly passive greenhouse.  The bootcamp will be putting the finishing touches on it over the next eight months or so.

My offer is that if somebody spends four years in the permaculture bootcamp, I will give them allerton abbey or something similar.  So a cabin and an acre of robust permaculture garden.  

At the moment, I am offering this to people that start before march 23, 2025. First come, first serve. So the people that start this month will have a head start over the people that start in march. When the time comes, there could be four or five plots to choose from.  Including Allerton Abbey.


The permaculture bootcamp is a bit like a shitty school.  A person would come to this school and spend their days gardening, natural building, homesteading, etc. and after four years, they can coast in their own permaculture paradise. 95% of the time spent in the bootcamp is to benefit the current boots and the future boots.


As we have been bouncing this idea around for a bit, some people have asked for some clarity on some points.

Many people have attempted to speculate what would be the street value of allerton abbey if it was a standalone acre for sale, near missoula, with equivalent natural building, passive greenhouse and robust permaculture gardens.  I've heard a lot of estimates in the range of $250,000 to $450,000.  What I am offering is our deep roots stuff.

What i get out of it is the advancement of permaculture as a whole.  If this idea works, then I will write about it.  If it fails, then I will write about that.  I like the idea of a community of two dozen permaculture homes, each with slightly different permaculture philosophies.  I think that people that have read my books and listened to my podcasts probably have a good idea of what I am attempting to accomplish with this offer.

People can still pop into the bootcamp for a few weeks or months.  This is an attempt to build a permanent community.  In fact, I think 99% of the people coming here will want to see if they like it before choosing to stay longer.

More information about the bootcamp is here https://wheaton-labs.com/bootcamp/ and discussion is here https://permies.com/wiki/bootcamp   .