Flow(TM) Hive may be the innovation that finally gets me (and you) into beekeeping!

tel jetson wrote:I noticed a Permies icon on their graphic of "who's talking about Flow™ Hive". doesn't elaborate on what we're saying about it...

(Non-Bee Person here) But does that really matter? Whether we're saying grand things or think it's crap? This product has opened up a world of ideas for thousands of people across the globe! I think that is the grander world domination-esque idea here.

Honestly, I would never have thought that beekeeping was something I could do - I thought it was much too demanding, time/money/equipment intensive for someone like myself. That is until I saw this product and started doing my homework. Am I getting one? Nope, maybe in a few years. Did it make me think that someday I could be proficient enough to get one. Hell yeah!

I'm also whole heartedly enjoying the real world opinion and lack of extremism (for or against) that I'm finding in this thread. The calm skepticism is refreshing and has allowed me a lot of insight that I feel would be lost if I had gone elsewhere for information. Thank you Permie Folk!

elle sagenev wrote:Why I like it, time. I am so busy all of the time. If I could make harvesting honey easier on everyone, I want to do that.

Its not faster. I bet I can harvest a frame of honey faster than this setup with a standard hive. If you are so time poor that harvesting honey is too much time then forget the other tasks associated with keeping bees. While they don't take lots of time there are always small jobs to be done with a hive. Harvesting is one of them........

Interesting view from the Natural beekeeping trust here
https://naturalbeekeepingtrust.wordpress.com/2015/02/16/the-culmination-of-callousness-updated/

David

David Livingston wrote:Interesting view from the Natural beekeeping trust here
https://naturalbeekeepingtrust.wordpress.com/2015/02/16/the-culmination-of-callousness-updated/

David

they certainly didn't mince words.

Its a fair bet they have not supported the kickstarter

British understatement _ you cannot beat it
David

I'm running across this everywhere now here is an essay I liked http://www.rootsimple.com/2015/02/the-flow-hive-a-solution-in-search-of-a-problem/#share at Homegrown.org

scroll up when you get there, for some reason the link is landing on the end of the article.

I've never kept bee's would like one day, but not now. When I first encountered their project I was sort of curious like all the non beekeepers I guess, don't who wrote in a post before me, but it's true. Like it's true we think it's all about honey and forget the bees.
my personal critic is I don't like the things that I have to buy even if they could be made by myself. I'm not speaking of tecnological high stuff, but in my view a hive is something you can DIY, and this instead is plastic! come on we all, or maybe many of us, have plastic and use it, but why when you can build something without it, come on. then I don't like the idea of bees living in plastic cells, they can actually build the cells why do we have to do it for them?
I'm ignorant but what would the bee's that build cells do if it's all already there?
hive disorder, disoccupation rates growing, aren't we happy just to ruin our society? yes maybe being free from work and with alla that honeyrichness some bees could start thinking about music and art but I guess that would not be the outcome, and we would just see hive collapse
sorry a part from my stupid jokes, the cell building means something for bees or no?

I think the tide is turning against the " flow tm"
http://www.milkwood.net/2015/02/26/going-flow-flow-hive-actually-good-idea/

David

Thanks to Tim Malfroy over on the warre group for bringing this article to my attention

It's really ebbing now

http://www.beeswing.net/2015/02/thoughts-on-flow-hive.html?m=1

David

Thanks to Heidi over on the warre yahoo group for pointing this out

more than three million!!! people have gone crazy

This picture was with the article I linked to above. http://www.rootsimple.com/2015/02/the-flow-hive-a-solution-in-search-of-a-problem/#share
Is this truly the inner workings of the thing? All plastic??? If so, just this picture would make me run the other way

I think some of the bees may run away too

David

If you notice... the sections are not connected. I still feel that a single section in a hive would be ok. Letting the bees have the rest to themselves. Making their own comb. I am sure some are going to fill an entire box with these things. But I am betting they won't last long if they do.

I think it can be done sustainably. Of course writing an article like that won't grab headlines or attention.

Rob Browne wrote:

elle sagenev wrote:Why I like it, time. I am so busy all of the time. If I could make harvesting honey easier on everyone, I want to do that.

Its not faster. I bet I can harvest a frame of honey faster than this setup with a standard hive. If you are so time poor that harvesting honey is too much time then forget the other tasks associated with keeping bees. While they don't take lots of time there are always small jobs to be done with a hive. Harvesting is one of them........

I meant my time. I work full time away from the home, have 2 toddlers, cook from scratch and farm. Time is not something I have a lot of.

I was thinking if the aim of the kickstarter was about 50 k what was this money for . I realize now that it must be the cost of the publicity the video and paying the kickstarter folks . Getting your product noticed and an order book to sell on to another company sounds like a good business deal .
I wonder if monsanto would be interested in buying this for there bee department?

David

Marty Mitchell wrote:I think it can be done sustainably. Of course writing an article like that won't grab headlines or attention.

maybe that depends on one's definition of "sustainable". mine doesn't include lengthy industrial supply chains. I'm not at all confident that I can honestly call the hives I make by hand without any metal in them sustainable, even when I use locally harvested and FSC-certified wood.

and, for what it's worth, I don't think your plan of just one of these frames in a super will work, at least not how I imagine you would like it to. you'll still have to get into that super occasionally to keep things from getting, um, less beekeeper oriented. at that point, lifting one frame out to harvest will be as easy or easier than using a Flow frame and very much less expensive.


as far as grabbing headlines, I think it's in the nature of these organizations to be contrary. contrary to the mainstream that they see as harmful. that they're using this moment of frenzy over a new contraption to shine some light on issues that are important to them seems quite reasonable.

tel jetson wrote:

Marty Mitchell wrote:I think it can be done sustainably. Of course writing an article like that won't grab headlines or attention.

maybe that depends on one's definition of "sustainable". mine doesn't include lengthy industrial supply chains. I'm not at all confident that I can honestly call the hives I make by hand without any metal in them sustainable, even when I use locally harvested and FSC-certified wood.

and, for what it's worth, I don't think your plan of just one of these frames in a super will work, at least not how I imagine you would like it to. you'll still have to get into that super occasionally to keep things from getting, um, less beekeeper oriented. at that point, lifting one frame out to harvest will be as easy or easier than using a Flow frame and very much less expensive.


as far as grabbing headlines, I think it's in the nature of these organizations to be contrary. contrary to the mainstream that they see as harmful. that they're using this moment of frenzy over a new contraption to shine some light on issues that are important to them seems quite reasonable.

You are right. The whole sustainable argument can have so many twists and turns. Enough to make me want to keep clear. You sound like you make some awesome hives. Do you have any YouTube videos out on your techniques? I am interested in learning.

The whole "amount of work saved" conversation is going to be all hypothetical too until a community of informed of ppl with on the ground experience happens. So that is kind of a waste of time I suppose.

I could say that bees eat about 7 lbs of honey to make every 1 lb of wax. Saving a lot of work for them.
I could say that not taking the comb out over and over again would enable the bees to seal the ends like they do in nature and be able to thermal/hydro-regulate. But that would be guessing since they may not do that on this fake comb. So it's only hypothetical.
I could say that toxins tend to accumulate in the wax. Keeping some of the toxins out of the honey we consume. Hypothetical again though. Of course there could be toxins in the plastics too. So that can go either way.


I never thought of them as using the momentum of another group's movement to push their own agenda. Makes tactical sense though.

I guess I am just seeing this shining new contraption as a man-made tech(flow comb) that is just getting stuck inside some more man-made tech.(the hive). Neither of which were created by nature. Just having a hard time seeing why everyone loves one tech. and sees the other as something horrible. Both are used to serve man... not the bees. That's just in a lot of cases though. Depends on the hive owner. Just like a gun. Or a car. Or money. Horrible things can be done with all of it. Great things can be done too.

So my stance on the Flow comb... on wither it is bad or good is... It depends.

I am new and don't know what I am talking about.

Marty Mitchell wrote:You are right. The whole sustainable argument can have so many twists and turns. Enough to make me want to keep clear. You sound like you make some awesome hives. Do you have any YouTube videos out on your techniques? I am interested in learning.

to be clear, I don't make them all that way. I had a request a while back from some biodynamic folks who believe that any metal in a hive is detrimental to the bees. I'm agnostic on that issue, though I'm doubtful that metal would help them in any way. but it was a fun project, and the hives ended up really strong. I've just gotten another request for a hive like that, so I may be doing it again.

Marty Mitchell wrote:The whole "amount of work saved" conversation is going to be all hypothetical too until a community of informed of ppl with on the ground experience happens. So that is kind of a waste of time I suppose.

I don't think it's all hypothetical. it really depends on one's starting point, and experienced beekeepers know pretty accurately what's involved in managing their hives and harvesting. personally, I consider wax an important hive product, and I try to cycle it out regularly both for my own use and to allow the bees an opportunity to build new comb. for those reasons and others, I crush comb in a sausage press to extract honey. I also don't use frames at all (except for cutouts, but that's another story), so this contraption would add work for me: now I've got to get in there and keep it free of propolis and burr and brace comb, because it will fail eventually and getting it out would otherwise require complete destruction of the hive body. I also keep bees on a scale that is personally manageable for me, and harvesting might be a day's work and an enjoyable day at that.

if, on the other hand, I kept enough hives that harvesting was an overwhelming chore and one exceedingly disturbing to the bees, this contraption might well save me some time. but if I kept that many hives, outfitting them with these things would be exorbitantly expensive and require working even more or charging much higher prices for the honey. I think the work-saving angle does not hold up under scrutiny. it seems sort of akin to saying that owning a supercomputer will help me do addition faster. or paying somebody to knock up my wife to save me time. in the end, if a person would rather not spend their time harvesting honey, their money might be better spent buying honey from somebody who does enjoy harvesting it. that option seems to maximize utility.

Marty Mitchell wrote:I could say that bees eat about 7 lbs of honey to make every 1 lb of wax. Saving a lot of work for them.

sure. you could also feed them glucose syrup so they don't have to leave the hive to forage. that would certainly save them a lot of work, too.

bees build comb. bees make honey. these things require metabolic expenditures. it is not reasonable to argue otherwise. but it is perhaps only from a beekeeper's perspective that metabolic expenditure to make honey is worthwhile and metabolic expenditure to make wax is not. this certainly wouldn't qualify as hard evidence, but I've spent quite a bit of time watching bees build comb and they sure seem to be enjoying themselves (please forgive the anthropomorphizing). bees are going to be working on something one way or the other. while I am quite convinced that many beekeeping practices are very invasive and stressful to bees, I do not believe that thoughtful and careful harvest of wax and honey is one of these.

Marty Mitchell wrote:I guess I am just seeing this shining new contraption as a man-made tech(flow comb) that is just getting stuck inside some more man-made tech.(the hive). Neither of which were created by nature. Just having a hard time seeing why everyone loves one tech. and sees the other as something horrible. Both are used to serve man... not the bees. That's just in a lot of cases though. Depends on the hive owner. Just like a gun. Or a car. Or money. Horrible things can be done with all of it. Great things can be done too.

So my stance on the Flow comb... on wither it is bad or good is... It depends.

I don't subscribe to the technology-is-neutral school, but that's a topic for discussion elsewhere. would you agree, though, that there is appropriate technology and inappropriate technology? an example: which would be a more appropriate way to make a trip to the next block - a helicopter or a bicycle?

Marty Mitchell wrote:I am new and don't know what I am talking about.

relatively speaking, we're all pretty new.

tel jetson wrote:
I don't subscribe to the technology-is-neutral school, but that's a topic for discussion elsewhere. would you agree, though, that there is appropriate technology and inappropriate technology? an example: which would be a more appropriate way to make a trip to the next block - a helicopter or a bicycle?

That is funny that you mentioned helicopter. I actually work on them for a living. lol That is funny.

I do agree. There is a time and a place for everything. Everyone has thier own needs and nothing fits everyone's needs. I don't know if it is because I am getting older now... or just because my frame of mind is changing... but I have began to change things in my life towards the more simpler ways.

I am the only one at work who has a flip phone for instance. When they poke fun @ me I just tell them we are surrounded by computers all day for checking email if needed. I can still use my phone as a phone. In fact I usually only charge it about once a month. I typically spend about $70 less each month on my phone bill. That's $840 a year saved. Litterally using that money to invest in things what will increase my quality of life. Paid for all of the plants in my yard and such.

Even sold all of my old beater vehicles and bough one decent vehicle that will do an OK job @ all of the things the other vehicles did. Even had a lot of money left over. Not having a $400-$700 a month car payment really adds up quick too.

I can see why it is not a good fit for you. It does say that the Flow hive sections each go into and exsisting box with only a few simple cuts. So the labor for conversion sounds easy. Bet it is harder than I think though. Any costs would be passed to the consumer though too I bet. Honey is already pricey. My brother said that he pays $15 a pound for honey around his parts.

Additionally I have concerns about the plastic. I don't use plastic foundation in my hives, nor do I bottle my honey in plastic jars. Plastic leaches nasty chemicals, some say at temps as low as 87 degrees, some say lower. Adding to the toxic load on the bees and on us.

For the bees,

Lee

So I heard about this Flow hive last night for the first time.

Thank you all for your comments on www.permies.com. I always research here before going forward. I do not have bees. My wife really wants us to have bees, so much so that she painted our dining room table using a bee stencil. We love honey. I was thinking last night after reading about the flow hive that we could buy one and then we'd have a honey machine with very little maintenance. I was very excited!

I've always been skeptical about getting bees because of the work associated with harvesting the honey. I never thought about how stressful that whole process is on the bees. I am still learning how to be a good steward.

Now I've read all the posts on this forum and am once again skeptical.

In today's daily-ish email Cassie mentions Jacqueline Freeman will be here answering questions. I wonder what she has to say about this in relation to "her brand new book The Song of Increase: Returning to Our Sacred Partnership with Honeybees!"

Looks like they are up to 4.3 million raised.

Ted

Hi Ted
I am willing to bet that she has not supported the kick starter
You should check out Warre hives the work is what you make it or find a local beekeeper ( preferably a low intervention natural type one )and exchange a place to keep bees for some honey .
It would give you some experience of what goes on and how much work is involved.
David

David,

Thank you for the advice. I don't think I've ever considered partnering up with a local beekeeper to learn.

One of my co-workers has a hive. I don't know if she is a "low intervention natural type" but I think she'd be willing to teach me and my wife. My co-worker and I are both here on permies and we went poo-less at the same time.

thanks again for the suggestions. I'll check out the Warre hives too.

Interestingly I have the same surname as the woman who started this thread on the Flow Hive but we are not related. I've been watching the trending topic of the Flow Hive in social media and its financial bonanza, and I have to say I have very mixed feelings. The outpouring of enthusiasm (expressed through money funding the campaign) suggests that many people are either interested in beekeeping or in honey or in doing what they believe will help bees. I say "believe" because they are buying this hive based on what the creators say in the video, rather than any research of their own into what bees are as an organism and what they need. I am of the view that the Flow Hive is about convenience for the beekeeper and focuses on the "crop" (i.e. honey) rather than from a knowledgable understanding of bees. I have no doubt that the inventors are well-intentioned, but I don't think they are aware of all of the ramifications of their design and viral campaign either. Honey bees have been so "managed" for centuries that one really has to dig and study to learn about what they are and what they need, as even much of what passes for "natural beekeeping" is done with honey production in mind, rather than the welfare of the bees.

I have one acquaintance buying a Flow Hive. Below I will express what my various concerns are, and I will be most curious to see what documentation or guidance the makers provide with it, to see if they address any of these concerns. Just as a good farm store will not sell an "Easter chick" to a family who has no clue about chicken keeping and will instead require purchase of a small flock and provide guidance on how to house and raise them, a good beekeeping supply house will sell not just hives but books and resources and dispense with advice to help new beekeepers enter the vocation responsibly. Particularly as the Flow Hive inventors have a new methodology that purports to make beekeeping easier (thereby attracting those perhaps less likely to put effort into learning), in my mind they have the ethical imperative to educate not just on the use of their hive but on all aspects involved in beekeeping. The Flow Hive video focuses only on honey extraction. It fails to address: how are you going to get bees and get them into the hive; how are you going to manage or prevent swarms; how are you going to keep your bees alive when there is no nectar flow (i.e. winter in most climates) - especially if by having honey on tap you have taken too much away and not left enough for the bees - and how much is too much to take; how are you going to re-queen; how are you going to prevent illness, etc. I believe these topics should have been touched on in the video - in the form of the caveat "before you buy this, be aware there's more to beekeeping than honey extraction, here's how we will guide you or where we will refer you for education" - but hopefully they will be addressed in materials supplied to buyers of the Flow Hive. If they are not addressed, then I would say that these gentlemen are doing the bees of the world the ultimate disservice, by bringing into beekeeping people who think it's only about getting honey on tap. These will not be responsible beekeepers unless they learn first about bees.

To look at just a few of the concerns I mentioned... Say you buy the Flow Hive, where do you get the bees? Most new beekeepers are not going to catch a swarm, but rather buy a "package". Ok, you've got a box made of somewhat flimsy wood and screen and it's buzzing madly because it's filled with THOUSANDS OF BEES. How are you going to put them into the Flow Hive? You've got to open that box... and the video suggested there's no need for the smoker or bee suit.... hmmmm... And then what about that little cage with the queen bee in it pacing back and forth, wanting out... Did the people telling you about honey on tap and a hive you never had to open tell you how to put her into your hive without her flying off and without you getting stung by all those other bees who are trying to stay around her? And then if you follow usual procedure and put the queen cage in there with a marshmallow, you've got to open the hive again later to make sure she was released and to get that queen cage out again. (But I thought the video said we didn't have to open this hive and interfere with the bees?) If instead of buying a bee package the new Flow Hive owner plans to catch a swarm, how? The Flow Hive itself is not likely to work as a bait hive as in its new form it will smell of plastic, not of the wax comb that would be put in a typical natural bait hive. If the new beekeeper is expecting ease, are they prepared to go and fetch a wild swarm from say 15 feet up in someone's tree and then take it home to their new Flow Hive?

Assuming these new beekeepers populate their Flow Hives one way or another, how are they going to manage them? Not in terms of extracting honey, which the Flow Hive is geared towards and they are enthused about, but all of the other aspects of management. Left to its own devices, a growing bee colony will produce more queen cells. As a new queen is about to hatch, the old queen will depart with say half of the colony. If you let that happen, one day you'll have a dramatic swarm of thousands of bees flying around your yard for a while, then your neighbor's yard, perchance to land in one of their trees. Where, as a responsible beekeeper you have to retrieve them and have another empty hive ready to put them into. (Oh, you didn't know that you needed more than one hive?) If you don't recapture your swarm, it will look for a home elsewhere - perhaps in the roof of one of your neighbors' garages or sheds or an attic in your neighborhood. Currently municipalities are allowing urban beekeeping, but that will quickly change if we have unmanaged swarms. And if half of your colony leaves, guess what? Less honey on tap as half of your "workers" left. A conventional beekeeper is all about maximizing honey production and thus prevents swarms by regularly opening their hives and removing the queen cells so that no new queens are hatched, so then no swarms. But that means you have to open the hives after all, and regularly, and the Flow Hive was supposed to be about non-interference... So you are going to need that bee suit and smoker after all. (Then, if you go this swarm prevention route, you also get to do kinky things like kill old queens, artificially inseminate queens, etc. as your old queen will eventually die and you have to open the hive again to put in a new queen...). The alternative to this conventional beekeeping swarm prevention methodology is to let them swarm! But then as a responsible beekeeper (and to keep the honey production in your apiary) you have to be ready to catch swarms and have ways to house those swarms. So you need extra empty hives, and you need to be collecting your swarmed bees from neighbors' trees and the like. Or you have to have other beekeepers at the ready to come and collect swarms you don't have a place for, but I personally think that is irresponsible as there's no guarantee the bees will hang out until your local swarm collector shows up a few hours later. Or are you (or your neighbor) going to call a pest exterminator to deal with those bees?.... But wait, the Flow Hive is supposed to be about being friendly to the bees and turning a tap to get honey! Why are we talking about exterminators? But this will happen if new beekeepers rush to these Flow Hives without understanding what they are getting in to.

Will the makers of the Flow Hive prepare new beekeepers for ANY of this? And the other things I listed? There's much more to beekeeping than harvesting honey.... but the only thing their video talks about is harvesting honey, as easy has having beer on tap. If you have a dairy goat for milk you have goat milk on tap.... but - you have to milk your goat 2x a day, get your goat pregnant on a regular schedule (no baby goats, no milk flow), deal with veterinary issues and kidding, and then manage your growing herd or find home for all those baby goats. Likewise, simple, easy honey on tap with no other responsibilities is a pipe dream. Beekeeping requires much more, even natural, low-intervention forms of beekeeping like the Warré Hive (see below). If it's too much work for you to learn to be a beekeeper in healthy relationship to your bees (and bees in general) and your neighborhood/community, don't take it on. If the makers of the Flow Hive are not prepared to support their customers in becoming responsible beekeepers, they are creating a monster that will result in many failed beekeepers who will quit and potential ill-will toward bees from unhappy neighbors of Flow Hives that are not managed properly.

I am a relatively new beekeeper (started in 2012) and use the Warré hive because it is a bee-centric approach that involves minimal intervention (swarm management rather than swarm prevention) and focuses on how bees live naturally in that its dimensions mimic a hollow tree trunk; top bars rather than frames are used, so that bees to form their own comb on with little "guidance" on how to do so from the humans; and intervention is minimal (hiving a package or swarm; occasional honey harvesting - usually 1x a year for me). What honey I get is a gift from the bees, not a commodity. I make sure to leave plenty for them - in fact I usually leave most of it for the winter, to prevent starvation or feeding of sugar, and only take surplus after a new nectar flow is reliably happening in the spring. There were entry hurdles - I build my own hives (though you can buy them), I took conventional beekeeping classes, then read books on the Warré methodology and participate on a Warré forum to learn from more experienced beeks, I also call on local beekeepers for guidance, I get stung when I put myself in the wrong place or wrong attitude in relation to this untamed, undomesticated creature I am inviting to live in proximity to me. There are ongoing hurdles: I have to catch swarms and re-hive them. I have to repopulate hives that don't make it through the winter. I have to interact with and educate my neighbors about these creatures I have brought en masse into our neighborhood. I have to continually learn. But I love it. I chose it. I'm willing to do all these things to live in respectful relationship to the bees. They are not my workers to give me honey on tap. They are honored guests and it is my job as a host to learn as much about them as possible and to create the conditions that encourage them to stay, to flourish, and to perhaps have a bit of excess honey that I can enjoy. This has become long and a bit of a rant, but I feel the excessive exuberance for the Flow Hive merits words of caution.

If you are thinking of buying a Flow Hive, first, please, spend some time reading about all of the aspects of beekeeping, here on Permies and elsewhere. Ask questions of Jacqueline Freedman this week. Read books. Consider what other types of hives are out there and what you are taking on. See what local regulations beekeeping is governed by. Decide how to enter beekeeping from all of this, not just from a groovy new viral video about the latest beekeeping gadget and a greed for your own honey. Respect the bees and enter beekeeping with the odds of success on your side and theirs.

I just went through all the posts on the Flow Hive and have to give y'all a hefty credit for thinking broadly and not jumping on the bandwagon on the first pass.

I'm not a fan for these reasons:

1) I don't like plastic in the hive. The Flow Hive is not just a plastic foundation, the cells are built out to the full depth as well.

2) All the bees have to do is fill it and cap it, but from a side observation window, it's hard to tell if they've capped the whole sheet. To tell that, you'd have to open the hive and look. Otherwise you may be removing nectar that hasn't been turned to honey yet and that won't stay honey, it will ferment (ie, that's how you make mead).

3. I strongly oppose the idea that you can just get a Flow Hive, put bees in it and turn a dial to extract their honey. Bees are SO MUCH MORE COMPLEX than that. I find it very disrespectful to approach bees by looking at what we can get from them. Reducing them to the daily source of honey for your pancakes is (dare I be so bold) abhorrent to me. This idea is what gets humans into trouble over and over. Say I keep six cows in my pasture where they eat grass... but I bet I could fit 50 cows in that same pen and feed them hay instead of having to grow grass. Or how about I boost that to 100 feedlot cows and we feed them leftover bagels and day old Entermans coffee cake (true story) instead of appropriate food? And then we birth feedlots.

That's what I see the Flow Hive as promoting -- bees as another indentured servant whose role is to serve human needs. My first question is always, "Is this something the BEES need? Does this make their lives better? (and I mean from the bee's point of view, not "bee view as humans imagine it"). If it's not good for the bees, I won't use it.

4. What we need is beekeepers who first LOVE their bees and are willing to do anything to give them lives that allow them to express their bee-ness. The primary relationship ought to be based not on taking more from them, it ought to be based on a concerned and caring relationship with them.

Okay, I'm stepping down from my soapbox now.

Jacqueline

In this video they removed the Flow Hive frame from the box to show in more detail how it works. They even showed bees in the video this time. lol

Looks like no honey will even get onto the bees feet. So no honey avalanche like we were worried about earlier.
They said that usually the bees fill the outermost honey cells last usually. So that leads me to believe that they have been getting that as a consistent result. So mostly cured honey comes out. I would still want full window views myself.
I could see people using this in a Warre or Lang and just taking the honey trays indoors for harvest. No need for a expensive honey spinner or meat grinder. No smell of honey to attract predators.
Since the honey cell caps remain closed then the smell would not be released there either. Letting the bees take their time cleaning things up.
They even said that the honey tends to have more flavor since it does not oxidize so much... but I don't know if I believe that one since it definitely does touch air... all the way through it's creation ... to harvest... to storage.


http://youtu.be/ryWC92NT2Eo


Their Indigogo project is over 5 million dollars to date. I hope they return all of that surplus towards helping bees. They very well may do that in some unforeseen form.

On a side note $5,000,000 donated is a LOT of ppl. If say the average person donated $300(likely less than $100 or even $50) then that would mean that 16,666.67 people would have donated(could be 3 to 6 times that many ppl). If all of those people are new to beekeeping as suggested then that is a large flush of beekeepers that never existed before. Now, lets say that (a generous)10% of those ppl are dumb enough to not realize they need bees for their beehive as suggested... and they aren't willing to do that... then the number of new bee keepers now drops to 15,000 people(potentially times 3 to 6). Now let's say that 2/3 of those new bee keepers fail and never return to bee keeping but the last 1/3 remain. The world would now have 5,000 (To 35,000)new bee keepers that will likely end up with more than one hive and pass the knowledge down through generations and other folks. Even if the gadget sucks and does not work.

The Flow Hive would have done for others what the title of this post suggests. Finally been encouraged to take that step into bee keeping.

This new Flow Hive may very well be inspiring a new generation of bee keepers. Bee keepers that will be drawing people's eyes towards nature. Not away.

You experts out there need to be there to guide them in the right direction. Never showing malice. Just knowledge and understanding.

I don't know. I guess I have always had a different outlook on life than most. I feel that if you travel through this world looking for light you will often find it. However, if your eyes look only for darkness... then that is all that you will ever see.

Hi Marty

I'm not saying no good will come of it, just that I have many concerns. If those novice beekeepers become educated beekeepers, great. My questions are what support and guidance the hive makers are offering to guide them in that direction, as beekeeping requires more understanding of bees than say keeping a goldfish requires an understanding of goldfish. Though any time we enter into relationship with another sentient being, it is our duty to approach that being with care and understanding, whether bees or goldfish or any other. I will be interested to observe my acquaintance who is getting on of these hives: the equipment and whatever else is provided, and her initiative to learn about beekeeping or lack thereof. I will of course be willing to help her if she asks. I still think these hives are a bad idea, but there's no stopping them so I'm hoping for the best.

I totally agree with you Anne. I hope that they do something for guidance for others in a real positive way. Maybe they will create a bee forum or become a heavy presence in another bee forum that already exists. Being able to divide folks into regions or climates to help them figure out what works best for their particular conditions... and meet or discuss with neighbors. Creating a healthy community.


Wouldn't it be cool if they were to buy 1million in pollinator wildflower seeds and donate it to gorilla gardening folks... or to just create a "create bee forage" campaign.


EDIT: Figured right now would be a good time to point out that I have received between 10 to 15 emails from the Flow folks since making a contribution. Sometimes several times a day. I wanted to make sure to mention that because they seem to be working hard to get the massive orders straightened out. That effort... combined with the ambition they have shown with the campaign... makes me think they will head in the right direction. I hope it works out.


Marty

I saw the first thread about the flow hive and replied to that one. I have moved my comment to this thread to keep the majority of comments in the same place.

Well, if you can find the type of plastic the hive is made of of, if the entire things turns out into a disaster, one could turn the plastic beehives into car fuel. I think it is good that at the very least some new people will have been introduced to the idea of beekeeping.

I just got a new email from the FLOW hive folks. They just had a mini campaign to raise money for folks who were in a natural disaster. Using their new found social capital in a positive way already. Here is part of the email they sent to me...

"We want to extend our heartfelt thanks to everyone who bought tickets in the raffle for the world’s first Premium Flow™ Hive.

Together, we have raised US$97,360 to help people in Vanuatu rebuild their homes and lives after the devastation of Cyclone Pam.

Oxfam Australia is astounded by your generosity, and the contribution we will make on your behalf is the largest single donation they have received for their Vanuatu Appeal.

You have made a real difference in the lives of real people, and are helping provide food, clean water, clothing, medicine and shelter to some of the thousands of individuals displaced by the storm.



We’re so proud of the community of good, caring people that has built up around Flow™ Hive and are truly inspired by the way we’ve all come together to provide help where it’s needed most.

We’d also like to congratulate Jason A. of Washington DC, ticket number: #6720235371, on winning the raffle.

He’ll be the first person in the world to own a Premium Flow™ Hive, which we’re going to send out to him free of charge as the first order to roll off the conveyor belt."

I have not noticed too many concerns with the flow hive that are not also concerns of traditional hives. Most of the concerns seem to denote a lack of understanding for how it works. I would suggest that anyone with concerns ask questions, or better yet, read the patent. No doubt there is room for improvement but this thing is going to do amazing things for the bee population based on how much attention it is stirring up. I like it. This particular type of hive, or frame really, would open up more options for how you can care for the bees and collect their honey. It doesn't limit much in the way of options you had before, it just has a few added bells and whistles. You can still open the hive whenever you need to. You can harvest in smaller increments with less disruption to the hive. You can partially harvest a particular frame, leaving the bees plenty to eat as well and when the frame gets too low the bees will uncap the cells and refill them. There is more risk with a traditional hive in relation to crushing bees. With these frames, they can be harvested without removal and the channel for the honey to flow is at the back of the cell out of reach of the bees so there is zero risk of crushing bees while harvesting honey.

Robert Overturf wrote:With these frames, they can be harvested without removal and the channel for the honey to flow is at the back of the cell out of reach of the bees so there is zero risk of crushing bees while harvesting honey.

zero risk? I disagree. the only way to assure zero risk of adult bees being crushed would be to remove the frame to inspect it ahead of time. at that point, the major selling point is rendered moot. there is always a chance, though perhaps rather small, that a bee is inside a cell of the frame to be harvested. could be eating honey, could be cleaning, could be making bee bread, could be doing any number of things.

and the only way to assure zero risk of brood being destroyed would be to use a queen excluder, which creates a number of other problems and is not generally considered appropriate for bee-centric beekeeping.

you say the criticism is mostly due to ignorance of the contraption's mechanism and mode of operation. certainly some of the criticism is due to ignorance, but some is very well founded. I would counter that most, though maybe not all, of the enthusiasm for the Flow Hive is due to ignorance of honey bee biology and ecology and the realities of beekeeping.

I was impressed with the video of the bench demonstration which clearly showed the operation. The capping stayed intact and only minor drips from uncapped cells near the edge of the frame. This was a fully filled and caped frame and demonstrated that for good practice you would want a full view window to judge harvest potential.
It has been 4 decades since I had bee hives but I could see having one flow frame on a hive and leave opening the hive to the bee inspector. We use less than one jar of honey a year so that would be adequate for our needs.
On the other hand Mason bees do a good job on my fruit trees and too many honey bees on my berries if there is not enough other things flowering means they start taping the froit which makes it unsaleable.

Hans Quistorff wrote:This was a fully filled and caped frame and demonstrated that for good practice you would want a full view window to judge harvest potential.

there really is no such thing as a full view window. at best, if a window is placed parallel to the frames, you might see one side of one comb, and that only for a few brief moments before the bees cover it with their bodies. the other side of that comb and every other comb will remain mysterious. if windows were placed perpendicular to the frames, you might be able to see a couple of centimeters on the end of each comb, again for only a moment. that comb closest to the perimeter of the hive is also the most likely to contain honey at any time, even when the same comb has brood in various stages of development closer to the middle of the hive, so it would be easy to erroneously assume that the whole comb was capped honey when it actually contained a fair amount of eggs, brood, uncapped honey, and pollen.

Robert's post-
"No doubt there is room for improvement but this thing is going to do amazing things for the bee population based on how much attention it is stirring up."
There are people that claim all the attention Monsanto gives their bee safe chemical pesticide treatments is going to do amazing things for the bee population too. Doing amazing things by stirring up attention depends on what the attention is stirring up. In this case insinuating that the art of keeping bees is as easy as turning a handle on a box of bugs is horribly misleading. As I have stated before, many colonies of bees will die because Flow Hive is leading people to believe beekeeping is a simple process. Only time will tell and I will be more then happy to publicly apologize to Flow Hive if I am wrong. I hope for the benefit of many bees I am wrong. Sadly, I think the only sorry I will be is for those bees.

tel jetson wrote:

Robert Overturf wrote:With these frames, they can be harvested without removal and the channel for the honey to flow is at the back of the cell out of reach of the bees so there is zero risk of crushing bees while harvesting honey.

zero risk? I disagree. the only way to assure zero risk of adult bees being crushed would be to remove the frame to inspect it ahead of time. at that point, the major selling point is rendered moot. there is always a chance, though perhaps rather small, that a bee is inside a cell of the frame to be harvested. could be eating honey, could be cleaning, could be making bee bread, could be doing any number of things.

and the only way to assure zero risk of brood being destroyed would be to use a queen excluder, which creates a number of other problems and is not generally considered appropriate for bee-centric beekeeping.

you say the criticism is mostly due to ignorance of the contraption's mechanism and mode of operation. certainly some of the criticism is due to ignorance, but some is very well founded. I would counter that most, though maybe not all, of the enthusiasm for the Flow Hive is due to ignorance of honey bee biology and ecology and the realities of beekeeping.

My understanding, which I will admit is limited, is that the risk of crushing comes in the removal and replacement of the frame when the hive is opened. When harvesting from a flow hive, where would the risk of crushing come from exactly since you don't have to open the frame? There s a channel at the back of the cell where the honey is drained from. There is no mechanical action inside the cell if I understand correctly.

I don't think anybody is claiming that beekeeping is a simple process, but maybe harvesting honey can be, and at the same time less impactful to the bees if not over-harvested and if proper respect is given to the needs of the bees along the way but I think that goes without saying for most people who will be successful.

Let's look at the idea of people getting bees and then many of them dying off from poor care. Doesn't that still mean that if there would be a small percent of a large number of people that are successful, that that would still have a positive impact on the overall population?

No doubt people are going to fuck it up, people fuck everything up, but a few will be the exception to that rule. Those are the people I am interested in.

On a side note... or two...

The FLOW hive campaign is well over the $8,000,000 mark the last I checked. That is a Huge Swarm of new people. Get it? lol

So if 75% fail by letting a single hive die... and never return. Then that will be a bit of a sad/horrible thing to focus on. However, the other 25% will make a difference I suspect. Let's keep in mind that Australia is currently going through a bit of a bee renaissance right now. So it is a HOT topic. For them... this company will likely make a great thing begin to happen. Also, their country does not have any of the disease and pest issues ours does(to my understanding). So that frame of mind... is not likely on their mind.

Also, found out the Flow Hive owner has started his own YouTube Channel. Seems that he really does have a reverence for bees. Even enjoys teaching others about them. Here is a video he made that is on the topic of one of his local Solitary Bees...

https://youtu.be/3gDl34dfCow

It seems to me that the controversy is as much about the langstroth production model / mindset as it is any new innovation. The fact the Flow Hive is so clever and successful makes it all the more galling to those who never liked the langstroth hive to begin with.

To that, I say critics may miss an opportunity to speak loud and proud about the benefits of less invasive, more natural, albeit less monetarily successful, methods of keeping bees.

If the new bee keeper thinks all they might want is a pound or two of honey a year, or whatever small amount south of 40 lbs that a warre or top bar hive would provide, they might be persuaded to save the 600 bucks on a flow hive, keep their true interest in the bees at heart, and buy/make their own easy natural bee box.

The langstroth hive we bought last year will way over produce what we need to consume this year. And although dreaming about scaling our honey production into income is nice, it's really not our fate, nor is it the fate of 99% of bee keepers. Tell these bee advocates, then, who are buying Flow Hives left and right, they're not going to be the next Burts Bees or something. Keep it simple, consider the bees, harvest what you need, save money, learn the real art of bee keeping.

edit: according to this site Americans only eat 1.3 lbs of honey a year (which may include honey in products bought at store, idk) http://honeylove.org/bees/

Perhaps I missed the answers to these issues, but here is why I will probably not be using the Flow hive anytime soon:

I am not convinced that for the experience beekeeper this will actually save any time at all. The only way to make sure you do not have brood in the honey is to use a queen excluder, and I have always heard that they cause more problems than they solve. In fact, Michael Bush as far as I can tell is against using the queen excluder for the purpose of keeping the queen out of the honey judging by his forum posts and the quotes on his website so I don't know how he can endorse this hive unless there is some functionality that prevents queens from laying brood in the flow hive frames. I will give him the benefit of the doubt and say that perhaps there is a way to tell if there is brood in the frame or not without opening the hive, but until I can figure out how I am going to stay away from it. And if you have to open it up and look at the frame to make sure it is ok to tap, why wouldn't you just harvest the frame while you had it open? I admit that if I was harvesting a single hive it may save me a few minutes here and there, but if I am going to have more than two hives I might as well just do it the old fashion way and save both time and money.

This of course is from a strictly business standpoint. If I were to look at it from the standpoint of a beekeeper who respects his bees (which I was and will hopefully be again soon as soon as I get more bees), I would see this hive as taking all of the fun and wonder out of beekeeping. I love to open a hive up and see how they are doing and get all in there. I have to struggle against the compulsion to be out there every weekend peeking inside making sure all is going well, and even then every day I still "casually" walk by to judge how much activity is occurring at the hive. The idea of just going up to them every once in awhile and turning a crank instead of using the honey harvest as an opportunity to check things out makes my hair stand on end!

*UPDATE*

I have read some on the subject. According the Michael Bush the cells are too deep for queens to lay in them. If that is truly the case and you wouldn't have to open the hive to check, I would consider using them if I got to a point where I no longer enjoyed managing the bees by hand. One problem I have yet to uncover is that if they are based on a deep, and with deeps you typically use two deeps for the brood and shallows for the supers, wouldn't you need three deeps? That seems pretty manageable, but something about that design seems off to me.