Downsides of Living Rural

Regan Dixon wrote:Hello Joel, when I went to order early last year, I discovered this nonsense on amazon.ca.  Conversely, one could order in from amazon.com for about $10 in shipping and $2 in customs fees...and it's still Canada Post delivering for the last leg of the journey.

Interesting.  When I've bought books from Amazon.com and they've then been sent up from the U.S., I can't remember being charged duty.

Regan Dixon wrote:For curries:  toast the spices in a dry pan until fragrant, then add the oil.  Magic!

Thanks for the tip! I'll try it that way.

But I also do know - a change of scene (such as a city restaurant once in a while) is nice, and not just because someone else is cooking.  There's a whole lot of history to the "country folks visit the city" pattern.  So it seems pretty natural.

Interesting about your amazon experiences, Joel.  I went through the order procedure again just now, a year later.  This time it is a "mere" $42 CDN to have the book sent, via amazon.ca, whereas if I ordered it in from the US, it would equate to only $10 CDN for shipping and a dollar for import fees.  I still have the correspondence from when I contacted amazon.ca last year to bring this matter up with them, so I am not remembering wrong!

Regarding the lack of eating out options. We've not been so concerned about this and I think over time it'll lead to us being superior cooks compared to what we were when living in the city. If its been a case of "I miss such and such a meal" the answer is "ok, well we need to learn how to make it - we cant get the ingredients - ok we need to learn to grow it". We're even ambitious enough want to grow all of our own spices over time.....let me come back to you in 5 years

Something else we've noticed. We thought we were pretty good cooks, but damn, our neighbours in the country are superb cooks. All of them......to the point where we feel rather inadequate by comparison. Its good though, lots to learn!

While the title of this is deceptive as it really doesn't discuss how rural folks deal with the issue, this report does explain the issue of internet a bit.

I forgot to say that I miss shopping in the alleyways, the endless alleyways of stuff that people are going to shamefully throw out.  i don't miss the fact that there is so much waste, but that I can find really cool stuff to repurpose on my projects, and save it from the landfill.  My local area has free sheds and local recycling areas, but I don't often find granite counter tops, or slate tiles... for instance.  

We've lived in greater Los Angeles for the past 20 years or so, so you don't get much more urban than our life today.  But back in the day, we lived on a chunk of land in rural South Dakota.

Things I miss:
* Quiet mornings, looking out every morning and surveying my "Kingdom"
* Keeping a horse.  Going for a ride in the evening.
* Plenty of room to experiment with new veggies, trees and crops
* Owning a truck and a car and a tractor
* Getting my annual deer, once by just stepping out the back door and shooting it from the porch.
* The lonely howl of the coyotes at night
* Pheasant hunting in the fall.
* Local high school sports for entertainment, particularly basketball in the winter.
* The mailman.  He'd keep an eye on things when he knew we were gone for a few days.
* We had some great neighbors and some dumb ones.  I miss the great ones, their kids and their extended families.
* No water bill.
* Cattle.  I really enjoyed working my cattle.
* I miss the way farmyard animals would become animated and so fun just before nightfall.  Little lambs, calves, colts, and even the evil goat kids . . . they are so cute and put on a little cuteness show right before sun down.
* Good, decent, salt-of-the-earth people with well behaved children, and thoughtfully informed opinions.  People assume rural means hick, but not in my experience.
* I miss using my guns whenever I wanted.  
* Little snakes in the garden.  Don't have those here in Los Angeles county.
* Fall.  I miss the colors changing, the corn standing in the fields, the Friday night football game, making sausage, and putting up food for the winter.  Thanksgiving meant something different back then.


Things I don't miss:
* Driving 45 minutes to get to the closest Home Depot or Costco
* The stupid deer wiping-out an almost ready garden in a single night
* The stupid critters of all types, getting into the hen-house/garden/feed shed/etc.
* That stupid badger.  My goodness that thing was destructive.
* Stupid cold South Dakota winters and stupid humid hot summers.
* Unable to order a simple pizza and have it delivered, not to mention any other good take-out.  The nearest Thai restaurant was over an hour away.
* Lack of access to the arts—museums, the theater, concerts.
* Pigs.  
* Goats.  If I never have to chase another Houdini pig or goat that somehow got loose, I will die a happy man.  Stupid pigs.  Stupid goats.  But mmmmm . . . home cured bacon.
* Mosquitoes.
* Snow drifts that blocked the driveway.
* When animals died.  That was always hard on the kids, particularly when we once lost a young colt.

Both lists could go on and on.  We lived in the country before Amazon and the Interwebs, and even before reasonably priced Dish TV, so I don't miss what we never had.

Roberto pokachinni wrote:I forgot to say that I miss shopping in the alleyways, the endless alleyways of stuff that people are going to shamefully throw out.  i don't miss the fact that there is so much waste, but that I can find really cool stuff to repurpose on my projects, and save it from the landfill.  My local area has free sheds and local recycling areas, but I don't often find granite counter tops, or slate tiles... for instance.  

I can relate to that.  Looking back, pretty well all the best finds I've acquired at yard sales, flea markets, and pawn shops have been purchases I made in cities.  Useful items like a chainsaw, hand tools in great shape, garden tools.  City people often have a lot of stuff, sometimes more than they need, hence will part with it - so it can show up at a yard sale.  Rural people are eager for bargains and may wind up competing for things like that, whenever they come across them.

I partly relate to what you wrote, Joel.

I find that in rural areas, there are more auctions, and the yard sales have better quality items.  In the city the yard sales are mostly crap that I wouldn't want, with the occasional treasure.  The opposite is true at rural yard sales.  Often when rural people have a yard sale, it is because they are downsizing, or leaving, or someone has died, whereas in the city I find that although these too can be the case, the more likely scenario is that the over production of the consumer society is made rampantly apparent in a house full of crap... and that realization has it spill out of the house into a yards sale where it all ends up on the tables devalued from ridiculous purchase prices, but still not worth anything in my mind.  Occasionally though, there is a champion juicer, or some power wood working tools of high quality, or a set of brand new chisels, or something like that, and I know that I have struck gold, but I find that rurally these are more often found, although definitely more used.  In my community, we have an annual yard sale, where many people set up an outdoor flea market on Mother's Day; it is always full of treasures.  

Flea Markets, Pawn Shops, Thrift Shops, et cetera, are a different thing generally, and although they are available in smaller communities, the abundance in the city in regard to the 'wastes' of an affluent society are definitely something I miss from the city, and mentioned this in one of my previous posts in this thread.

Regan Dixon wrote:Interesting about your amazon experiences, Joel.  I went through the order procedure again just now, a year later.  This time it is a "mere" $42 CDN to have the book sent, via amazon.ca, whereas if I ordered it in from the US, it would equate to only $10 CDN for shipping and a dollar for import fees.  I still have the correspondence from when I contacted amazon.ca last year to bring this matter up with them, so I am not remembering wrong!

Pardon me, Regan, if you've already looked into this.  But ebook versions of very many books ara available, for a fraction of the cost of the print version, and you can download them from home.  You save even more $ compared with the physical book because there’s no shipping cost (and for a Canadian, no customs duty).  An ebook reader can be an investment that saves you a lot of money in the long run. A couple years ago, I asked around among experienced people and then bought a Kobo.  The company makes a variety of models ranging from about $100 to $200, depending on the particular features you’d like.

I still like physical books best.  But when I don’t feel I'll definitely want to keep a particular book on the shelf, I save money and buy the ebook edition.

I buy ebooks from Amazon or from Indigo/Chapters, or borrow them from the public library I belong to (the library is 80km away, but I can download from home).  You can convert the Amazon “Kindle book" editions for reading in a Kobo, or if a person prefers Amazon they can choose to buy a Kindle reader in the first place.  But the ebooks I buy from Chapters go straight into the Kobo with no conversion fussing.

For those books that actually are available in electronic form, that is an option.  

The only downside i have experienced about living rural is not doing it earlier.

I prefer not going into town if I don't have to. Love where I live, love that I can create my own food, entertainment, and enjoy the quiet and peace.

Just came back from a two-day trip to our nearest sizeable city, Kelowna — population roughly 130k.  My partner is a sculptor, and she’s having some work done on some bronze castings over there.  Takes about 4.5 hours to get there or back.

Didn’t get to any yard sales, pawn shops, or thrift stores this time.  But upside included having a big selection of tools (mechanic-ing) at Home Depot (where we also bought a very good overhead LED shop-lighting fixture for my partner’s studio) and a few other practical items — all at prices we couldn’t have found closer to home.  Delicious authentic Mexican meal at “Hector’s” followed by a first-run movie, chosen from a wide selection.  Bought some bulk-food things that we can’t grow on our place, again at very good prices.  And so on.

Downside:  As I indicated above, it’s not a tremendously large city, and normally during weekdays you don't have to work your way through throngs of people on sidewalks and in parks, etc there. But it sure does have a lot of impatient traffic… makes for a stressful driving experience.  The whole city throws the consumerist pattern of North America in one’s face, and (once again) I really felt like some sort of alien in that blaring environment.  True, we’ve seen/heard some great live entertainment over there in a few past trips, but not this time.

We were glad to get out of there by noon on day two… I more so than my partner.  Feels great to be home.

Water. I miss my city water.

It's so easy: you just turn it on and there it goes, fresh and clean and perfect--straight out of somewhere in heaven.

Here I have well water that comes out like chocolate milk, filled with iron and manganese and calcium and sulfur and who the hell knows what all. It smells powerfully--from sixty feet--like boiled egg farts.

Sure, you can fight it with tens of thousands of dollars of aspirators and aerators and thousand gallon tanks, and zealite filters and carbon filters and salt softeners and UV santizers, and bleach shock--and...this one really amazes me...ACTUAL electric shock.

But if you ain't got that kind of dough...

You find out who your friends are, Boiled Egg Fart Man.

I love my well water, but then, my well water actually tastes amazing. CIty water tastes of chlorine. I usually can't stand to drink city water unfiltered--I'm spoiled by my well. My well water does, however, love to turn everything yellow-orange. It's not iron, but maybe nitrates in the water. So, it turns my bath and toilet orangish, and my cups get a little orange, too, if I use the same cup for a few days in a row. But, all in all, I love my well water.

I don't love that my well pump seems to be nearing the end of it's life, though. It's 20 years old, and it takes my husband an hour to fill a 80 gallon fish tank...that's 1.33 gallons/minute. I read the well report from when it got installed, and it looks like it used to pump 16 gallons per minute . We also used to clean our patio and siding with the "jet" function on our spray nozzle, and now we can't.

I dread the cost of replacing the pump!

Water. I miss my city water.

It's so easy: you just turn it on and there it goes, fresh and clean and perfect--straight out of somewhere in heaven.

 

At first I thought you were joking, until I read your whole post.  Poor you, Michael.  That deep sulfur water sounds nasty.   Have you considered building a reed bed and biochar filtration system, and bringing your water to the surface and filtering it biologically?  I mean you would have to pump it or pressurize it after that, but it would save on all that other stuff you mention.  

Anyway when I first read the beginning of your post, I couldn't disagree more in my mind.  The city water is clean but only in that it is sanitized beyond reason, and to me it is far from coming from somewhere in heaven for many urban people, and my experience of it is that it is generally heavily chlorinated to an extreme fault, and in many cases also laced with fluoride.  That and often city water comes from polluted watersheds (from air pollution), and the systems, including the pipes are often aging and need replacement, but the infrastructure costs are so huge that the city's budget can not do too much of it at once.  Living where I am now, city water is one of the many things that I do not miss at all.

To contrast the urban water of my experience, my own watershed is relatively free of problems.  I have second water rights on the creek.   It is rich in life and oxygen, and comes down a wild mountain through undeveloped property onto mine.  This is so much closer to Heaven, to me, that I had to give a double take on your opening line.  Ha Ha.    

Roberto pokachinni wrote:

Water. I miss my city water.

It's so easy: you just turn it on and there it goes, fresh and clean and perfect--straight out of somewhere in heaven.

 
At first I thought you were joking, until I read your whole post.  Poor you, Michael.  That deep sulfur water sounds nasty.  ...

To contrast the urban water of my experience, my own watershed is relatively free of problems.  I have second water rights on the creek.   It is rich in life and oxygen, and comes down a wild mountain through undeveloped property onto mine.  This is so much closer to Heaven, to me, that I had to give a double take on your opening line.  Ha Ha.

Quite interesting subject.  I've had rural water problems, of a somewhat different sort.  We have gravity-feed water to the gardens and to the house and one of our outbuildings.  It comes from way upslope, so we have about 80 psi pressure, so we reduce it where it comes into the house.  Normally only requires large-particle (silt or clay) filtration.

So far, so good.  However, our creek-water withdrawal & delivery system was in place when we bought the land. The top portion of the system was built in 1965, when the homestead land carved out of the conifer woods here had not been subdivided to the degree it was in more recent decades.  At this point, we share the system with five other households. The system has needed upgrading, with a good reservoir up near the creek, but three of the six households have been lazy and deliberately ignorant — unwilling to invest the time/effort & money needed for upgrade.  The system has required pampering and fixing during winter cold snaps (a real chore by the way!), and sometimes we run out of water on the homesites in August or September.

I agree that people in the cities, suburbs, and towns expect there to be "clean" water when they turn on the tap (though the delivery systems are, of course, potentially vulnerable).  And while I certainly also agree that their "clean" water is usually treated in ways that I personally dislike (chlorination, etc), I can understand Michael Sohocki's complaint.

And while I certainly also agree that their "clean" water is usually treated in ways that I personally dislike (chlorination, etc), I can understand Michael Sohocki's complaint.

 As can I.  If I had his rotten egg water, I would probably have said much the same thing!  I have water that is so good, that, if I filtered it in charcoal, i could probably sell it in bottles !  There are many even in this valley who do not have it as good as me.

However, our creek-water withdrawal & delivery system was in place when we bought the land. The top portion of the system was built in 1965, when the homestead land carved out of the conifer woods here had not been subdivided to the degree it was in more recent decades.  At this point, we share the system with five other households. The system has needed upgrading, with a good reservoir up near the creek, but three of the six households have been lazy and deliberately ignorant — unwilling to invest the time/effort & money needed for upgrade.  The system has required pampering and fixing during winter cold snaps (a real chore by the way!), and sometimes we run out of water on the homesites in August or September.  

 The system on the land next to mine (which is where I currently live, renting a small house with my aging parents), has much the same issues as does the two that are downstream.  I've been brainstorming a way to deal with those issues when I install my own system, which may also include a micro - micro hydro project.

Roberto pokachinni wrote:
I find that in rural areas, there are more auctions, and the yard sales have better quality items.  In the city the yard sales are mostly crap that I wouldn't want, with the occasional treasure.  The opposite is true at rural yard sales.  Often when rural people have a yard sale, it is because they are downsizing, or leaving, or someone has died, whereas in the city I find that although these too can be the case, the more likely scenario is that the over production of the consumer society is made rampantly apparent in a house full of crap.

Having re-read what you've said on the subject, Robert, I'm wondering if you've combed the pawn shops in the cities?  I've found that a small pawn shop can be a disappointment, because at any particular time their selection can be too limited.  But that's not the case with larger pawn shops.  I've seen a lot of incredibly high-quality tools in such places — not "weekend-warrior" or "homeowner" grades of stuff but genuine professional's tools.

And one weekend when my partner and I were visiting her family in Edmonton, we did a yard-sale circuit and I was able to cherry pick some very good non-powered hand tools at a few of these.  But I agree that with city yard sales it depends on the particular household and their mysterious history.

Roberto pokachinni wrote:I have water that is so good, that, if I filtered it in charcoal, i could probably sell it in bottles !  There are many even in this valley who do not have it as good as me.

This is how the water is on my property.  Amazing spring water - love it.  Makes my hair/skin feel amazing and it tastes great.  No need for a filter.

mm...yes, you want to know how they got those professional tools?

I wish I had kept the police report.

But that's not the case with larger pawn shops.  I've seen a lot of incredibly high-quality tools in such places — not "weekend-warrior" or "homeowner" grades of stuff but genuine professional's tools.  

 In my experience, having done some work in the trades and having many friends in the trades, is that tools get stolen by the truck load off work sites or out of personal worker's trucks.  In fact, a few years ago while working on a railroad gang, all of our machines were broken into, where each operator's personal tools were.  All the generators were stolen.  All of the power tools.  All of the spare hydraulic lines.  Etc.  This was near Edmonton.  The next work cycle we had armed night security.  Unlike bicycle's, there is no registration on power tools.  The other reason is that these tools are at pawn shops is that the trades are rife with drug use, and as such if a guy falls on hard times and 'needs' his drugs, he pawns his tools.   Pawn shops are fascinating places, but they tend to feel a bit predatory to me.  I tend not to buy tools at pawn shops.  

Roberto pokachinni wrote:In my experience, having done some work in the trades and having many friends in the trades, is that tools get stolen by the truck load off work sites or out of personal worker's trucks.  In fact, a few years ago while working on a railroad gang, all of our machines were broken into, where each operator's personal tools were.  All the generators were stolen.  All of the power tools.  All of the spare hydraulic lines.  Etc.  This was near Edmonton.

That's depressing to hear.  Some years back now, I worked as a carpenter and an assistant masonry/concrete guy.  We didn't leave equipment trailers or smaller equipment on-site overnight, and nothing was stolen.  I hadn't given enough weight to how much in the way of really good equipment in pawn shops is probably stolen!

One pawn-shop owner in my region got some of his inventory by buying pallet loads of tools & equipment via police auctions: many tools went unclaimed, so after a certain designated time the police advertised pallets of the items online.

Roberto pokachinni wrote:The next work cycle we had armed night security.  Unlike bicycle's, there is no registration on power tools.  The other reason is that these tools are at pawn shops is that the trades are rife with drug use, and as such if a guy falls on hard times and 'needs' his drugs, he pawns his tools.   Pawn shops are fascinating places, but they tend to feel a bit predatory to me.  I tend not to buy tools at pawn shops.

This is a fairly common story in my region too.  Guys doing cannabis or meth can often keep their habits affordable, but those doing smack, fentanyl, or cocaine very often cannot.

True, if one gives it much thought, shopping in pawn shops can be sad or creepy.

Just picking up on the used-goods aspect of this thread, here's a cool Youtube vid where a guy shows what he got at an auction for $30...

This isn't really something I miss but the biggest downside for us is.................


roads. It can be really difficult and stressful to get out of our road when the weather is bad. Just might have broken the snow blower tractor attachment this last snow too after hitting a rock. roads and travel, those are my cons.

Going rural for us has been about going back in time. I gave up Amazon Prime, for starters - Amazon is the new Walmart when it comes to destroying businesses and concentrating wealth and I will not be a party to that arrangement. I grow my own food these days and what I do not grow (yet), I buy from local growers. I bought an old tractor, old and used equipment and taught myself to work on it. We never did TV anyways so nothing to miss. I found I read many more books here but I was always a voracious reader. I ditched the cell phone since I do not need it and if people want to talk to me they can come and see me. We took a year to find our place because of cost but more importantly because of Internet - that's one thing I do need since I work from home. Having lived in Europe, Canada and United States, I really wish USA treated Internet as the interstate system - as in necessary infrastructure. Private high speed providers have no interest in rural areas but they cry foul when government wants to get involved in providing it to people.

One thing I do not love about being rural is the lack of zoning - if the neighbor half a mile down wants to turn their property into a dirt-bike race track - well, you will have to listen to it.
Another thing I do not love is that all the big farmers spray chemicals on everything. Don't bother me personally but I feel bad for them and their land.

What I would wish is for more people to go back to the land around here. Many rural folk are happier to live poor and/or have a (crappy) job in town even when Daddy left them the land for free. I had to buy my land and I paid through my nose for it 'cause good land is expensive and 'cause speculators buy farmland as investment. And my good land was corn and soy crop "cultivated" with the help of round-up; the forest portion was select cut and left a mess. But, I bought it anyways 'cause nothing is more satisfying than giving life back to a piece of abused soil.

elle sagenev wrote:This isn't really something I miss but the biggest downside for us is.................

roads. It can be really difficult and stressful to get out of our road when the weather is bad. Just might have broken the snow blower tractor attachment this last snow too after hitting a rock. roads and travel, those are my cons.

I can picture it — the great majority of us living in Canada live in snow country.  I definitely do.

Do you have neighbors you can call on?  That's what we do here, if someone winds up snowbound on their homestead.  For us on our land, usually it's one particular family nearby who have a great tractor, and in winter time it's got a snow scoop on the front and a heavy-duty snowblower on the back.

For me, the downsides of rural living was having money to pay someone to build your house and no one will come.

This might not even qualify, but for me the downside of living in this beautiful rural area (The Pocono Mountains) is how much it has built up in the past 20 years and all the people from NY (where I am from originally) and NJ who have moved here and throw garbage out of their car windows! I am constantly cleaning the 400'+ frontage of my property of beer and soda bottles/cans and fast food containers and bags. We live in such a beautiful area, and these Neanderthals insist on using it as a garbage can. I can't believe that some of our beautiful back roads have signs stating "no dumping allowed". Isn't that common sense? (something that's not so common now-a-days) And, despite the signs, you see mattresses, sofas, chairs, and all kinds of refuse destroying this beautiful area. Right now, we have a "Pick up the Poconos" campaign because of all the litter. From their website: "The first Pick Up the Poconos Day in Monroe County had 327 volunteers who filled 741 bags of litter, covering approximately 88 miles!" Instead of spending money on a website and billboards, they should be aggressively fining of these pigs...hit them where it hurts! OK...end of my rant!

Anne Miller wrote:For me, the downsides of rural living was having money to pay someone to build your house and no one will come.

This is basic research though. Rural areas often do not have as many professionals and contractors as cities and suburbs. Before moving somewhere, basic due diligence requires you to look at all these aspects. I always used to laugh at the number of New Yawkaws in south Florida who complained about the heat, humidity and bugs. Well, it is South Florida...

Jim Guinn wrote:This might not even qualify, but for me the downside of living in this beautiful rural area (The Pocono Mountains) is how much it has built up in the past 20 years and all the people from NY (where I am from originally) and NJ who have moved here and throw garbage out of their car windows! I am constantly cleaning the 400'+ frontage of my property of beer and soda bottles/cans and fast food containers and bags. We live in such a beautiful area, and these Neanderthals insist on using it as a garbage can. I can't believe that some of our beautiful back roads have signs stating "no dumping allowed". Isn't that common sense? (something that's not so common now-a-days) And, despite the signs, you see mattresses, sofas, chairs, and all kinds of refuse destroying this beautiful area. Right now, we have a "Pick up the Poconos" campaign because of all the litter. From their website: "The first Pick Up the Poconos Day in Monroe County had 327 volunteers who filled 741 bags of litter, covering approximately 88 miles!" Instead of spending money on a website and billboards, they should be aggressively fining of these pigs...hit them where it hurts! OK...end of my rant!

It is my experience that a lot of rural areas have a lot of "private dumps" - especially if there are woods in the area, it is very likely the woods have stoves, old cars etc. etc. I never understood why. The next on the ladder is burning trash - a lot of people do it - plastics, metal, 1.5v, 9b etc. batteries etc. etc. We too find stuff on our 1000+ft of road frontage all the time, wrappers, cans, bottles. It gives you a unique insight into the diets of the local "rurals". It is a common misconception that rural people eat what they grow.... ;)

Not sure how rural I am, have 2 gas stations, a post office I can walk to.  I can hear the interstate from my home and can walk to it.   Everything else? is about 15 minutes away in a bigger town.  I have municipal water, electric, a sewer tank.  Have pretty fast internet.   15 minutes away: grocery stores, hospital, library, Walmart, Lowes, Staples.   Other things are 45 minutes away.  The family that lived here moved to the 15 minute town.  I have a child center next to me (that I helped yesterday walking back home and got some strawberries for my help), and a church across the street.  

Oddo Da wrote:

Anne Miller wrote:For me, the downsides of rural living was having money to pay someone to build your house and no one will come.

This is basic research though. Rural areas often do not have as many professionals and contractors as cities and suburbs. Before moving somewhere, basic due diligence requires you to look at all these aspects. I always used to laugh at the number of New Yawkaws in south Florida who complained about the heat, humidity and bugs. Well, it is South Florida...

That was not the problem.  I did the research and since there were plenty of contractors in the area I had no idea I would have a problem.  I would have thought they would want work.

They were too lazy to drive 30 miles.  In a big city 30 miles is nothing.  You go from one side of town to another ... 30 miles.  

Trash is a big issue in rural areas; it's being discussed at length in this thread.  In my experience (and I live on a road that's been a notorious dumping spot for all kinds of garbage--stoves, sofas, tires, even a dead pony once), the locals aren't the ones doing the lion's share of the dumping.  People come from the more "civilized" areas (including the housing developments) to get rid of the stuff the garbage companies won't pick up (or charge an arm and a leg extra for).  

We didn't even have the option for garbage collection in my area until five years ago, so we drove our recycling 15 miles to another municipality's facilities (which we weren't supposed to do because our tax money wasn't supporting it).  Big stuff just sat around until we had enough to justify a trip to the landfill or the scrap yard (though, not much has changed there, even with weekly pickup).  When I was a kid my parents didn't keep a garden, so food scraps got thrown in the woods.  Everything else was burned, either in the wood stove (junk mail, paper egg cartons, packing paper) or out in the burn-barrel (non-recyclable plastics and food packaging, mostly).  We also kept a small trash can for things that had to go to a landfill no matter what--broken glass, batteries, that kind of thing--and that was tied up in a plastic shopping bag and thrown out at a gas station or in the dumpster at my mom's work (with permission).  We only had about one of those every two months or so.  For us, it was just impractical to hold onto all our household waste and drive it to the landfill every week, and we couldn't leave the garbage sit in bags because of the wildlife.

Honestly, I often wonder how much net carbon is being saved by not burning what little trash we generate, when considering the three separate garbage companies that now serve the area (no one has a contract with the township or anything, it's a free-market lover's dream of redundancy and waste and overcharging).  Five trucks a week (two garbage, two recycling, one combo) to serve like 50 households.  Luckily (ha ha) we only live about 15 miles from a landfill, but not all of the companies that serve the area use that landfill; one of them just has a transfer station and their garbage ends up in Maryland.  

One certainly has to confront their own waste when living rural.  

S Tonin wrote:Trash is a big issue in rural areas; it's being discussed at length in this thread.  In my experience (and I live on a road that's been a notorious dumping spot for all kinds of garbage--stoves, sofas, tires, even a dead pony once), the locals aren't the ones doing the lion's share of the dumping.  People come from the more "civilized" areas (including the housing developments) to get rid of the stuff the garbage companies won't pick up (or charge an arm and a leg extra for).  

We didn't even have the option for garbage collection in my area until five years ago, so we drove our recycling 15 miles to another municipality's facilities (which we weren't supposed to do because our tax money wasn't supporting it).  Big stuff just sat around until we had enough to justify a trip to the landfill or the scrap yard (though, not much has changed there, even with weekly pickup).  When I was a kid my parents didn't keep a garden, so food scraps got thrown in the woods.  Everything else was burned, either in the wood stove (junk mail, paper egg cartons, packing paper) or out in the burn-barrel (non-recyclable plastics and food packaging, mostly).  We also kept a small trash can for things that had to go to a landfill no matter what--broken glass, batteries, that kind of thing--and that was tied up in a plastic shopping bag and thrown out at a gas station or in the dumpster at my mom's work (with permission).  We only had about one of those every two months or so.  For us, it was just impractical to hold onto all our household waste and drive it to the landfill every week, and we couldn't leave the garbage sit in bags because of the wildlife.

Honestly, I often wonder how much net carbon is being saved by not burning what little trash we generate, when considering the three separate garbage companies that now serve the area (no one has a contract with the township or anything, it's a free-market lover's dream of redundancy and waste and overcharging).  Five trucks a week (two garbage, two recycling, one combo) to serve like 50 households.  Luckily (ha ha) we only live about 15 miles from a landfill, but not all of the companies that serve the area use that landfill; one of them just has a transfer station and their garbage ends up in Maryland.  

One certainly has to confront their own waste when living rural.  

I had the exact opposite experience - almost every single property we looked at had its own "private" dump site in the woods (granted, there are a lot of woods in the state of Virginia). In fact, when making an offer on a property, we specified that things be removed and these dump sites cleaned before closing day. My observation is that a lot of local people do not take very good care of their properties. Same goes for the land they are farming (the very few that do farm, that is). Our property was select-cut about 3-4 months before we bought it (by the previous owners - I think one of them needed a hearing aid so they turned to the woods to pay for it) and when we saw it, it looked like a bomb had exploded in the woods; they could not make it look worse if they tried. Every local we told about it waved it off saying how "this is how a select cut looks, don't worry". Yeah, this is how it looks when you treat forest as a resource to make money on, not a living organism. Furthermore, land is often overgrazed, too many chemicals used willy nilly etc. One fella came over with an ATV and a 40 gallon tank of "crossbow" (herbicide) and he sprayed and sprayed the neighboring property - I could tell a lot of the chemicals ended up around him, on him etc. I told him to be careful with this stuff, he laughed and told me it is completely safe. Yeah. I think I see cancer ten years from now in his future, unfortunately.

The newcomers aren't any better, mind you. It is not really rural/local vs newcomer problem, it is a nation-wide problem of people having no respect for land, nature, animals, cleanliness etc. etc. No shame and no care. Just my personal observations, others may have opposing views, that's fine too.

Burning trash and plastics... sigh, I will not touch that one...

I have mostly lived near medium or large cities but usually on the far outskirts. Trees & nature one direction. Civilization the other. My preference is always go into the woods & away from crowds. On several occasions I have lived farther away from civilization but never much closer in. I would suffer in a fancy downtown condo somewhere. Living on the lake was awesome. Even more rural here outside of Dinkytown, USA but I can get almost any product or service within 30-60 minute drive. The closest things are limited & poor selection. Higher quality & better selection further away. Especially food. That's the main attraction of most cities for me. Plus the arts & museums, etc. I traveled extensively during my rat race gigs for the corporate muckety mucks. So it's not just a matter of going downtown to a decent restaurant. I crave lobsta chowda from Boston, Monterrey cabrito, gumbo from New Orleans, diablo cameronnes from a Guadalajara hole in the wall, dungeness crab from Scarbo's on Pier 31 & TexMex enchiladas. That's not going to happen often again. So I cook. Preferably food that I grew or raised. Plenty of fishing & hunting available too. No problem. With internet shopping & a few basic suppliers fairly close I have very little need or desire for cities. I'm not a materialistic person so have minimal need for more "things". Actually have been in serious downsizing mode for several years. It just feels better to lighten the load. Might go full time hillbilly mode someday & don't need the excess baggage. That's even deeper in the mountains than Dinkytown. Much deeper. I've learned to appreciate banjos while tending bees.

Water was mentioned as a drawback to rural living. Certainly if the water is bad but mine has always been excellent. Can barely tolerate the smell or taste of chlorine water. Fluoride is a whole other topic.

Garbage disposal can be a nuisance. We burn paper but use a county recycling & dump facility for glass & plastics. It has made me more aware of trash & increased my efforts to minimize & avoid it entirely. So I see that as a plus.

Rural = more & bigger gardens. More animals too. Virtually unlimited space for both. What's not to like?

Peace & quiet. Fresh air. Big pluses in my book.

Good neighbors in the vicinity but not right on top of us. Big plus also. In rural areas bad neighbors can mostly be avoided & ignored. Not so in cities.

Traffic. Can't help but laugh when I hear residents of Dinkytown complain about traffic. Three cars on the road? At the same time? Might have to add an extra 2 seconds to their daily commute.

Completely refreshing outdoor showers on rainy days. Yes, running around naked with the tomatoes & beans. Difficult to explain in a city. No explanation required in the woods.

Bonfires & hillbilly hootenannys. Try that in the big city.

Zillions of stars & amazing lightning bug displays. Not available in big cities. Or as someone recently said "that's right, their butts light up".

Rural living requires better planning & better methods of doing things. I don't consider those a downside. For me that's simply the core of the whole permie concept. Doing things better for the longer term. In my opinion the downsides are towards the cities & globs of stressed out people.

Mike Barkley wrote:
Good neighbors in the vicinity but not right on top of us. Big plus also. In rural areas bad neighbors can mostly be avoided & ignored. Not so in cities.

Rural living requires better planning & better methods of doing things. I don't consider those a downside. For me that's simply the core of the whole permie concept. Doing things better for the longer term. In my opinion the downsides are towards the cities & globs of stressed out people.

Very similar trajectory to yours here.

I would disagree on one account - neighbors - they are a luck of the draw (ours are nice but you cannot pick everyone for miles in all directions). We have 30+ acres and the next door neighbor has 70. Yet the neighbor next to them has kids and grand kids running dirt bikes on weekends and you can definitely hear them like they are right next to you (so much for enjoyment of nature's silence/bird songs and fresh air). How do you avoid that? I actually think it is more difficult to deal with such things in rural areas because of absence of any zoning and the tendency of law enforcement to be somewhat "lax". It turns out to actually avoid these things you need 300-400 acres with the house in the middle of the acreage? Can't afford that ;) Now, sometimes you can get lucky and you get to know these folks and they turn out to be nice and you can mention in passing that someone is being very loud on weekends and all of a sudden, magically there is no noise next weekend. But you can see this scenario playing out not so much in your favor as well ;)

Here in SW Virginia (Piedmont on the cusp of Appalachia), people are SUPER nice - that is one thing that really sweetens the deal of rural living. We have lived in many parts of the country - from super busy Florida to Texas Hill country to rural Missouri to rural New Mexico. Obviously Florida is something that was so pretty and wild yet now it is so ruined by overpopulation and the influx of people. The same thing happened to Texas Hill country - it is very desirable with Austin being a boom-town and prices have become out of this world for land. More importantly they are sucking down their dwindling water aquifers faster than you can spell the word "aquifer". Missouri was just too rough for us, I like rural and Nature but I do not enjoy listening to gunshots 24/7 and feeling like i am living in hunt camp 24/7 with everyone around in camo and on their ATV - people were just too rough. I think these are the same folks who are moving to rural Florida because rural Florida can be the same in that respect. Where we are now is a nice middle of the road living.

There are a lot of myths of rural living. In "rural" Texas we were the only people in miles and miles radius who grew our own food. Everyone else "rural" drove for 30 minutes to town to buy groceries. It was similar where we lived in Missouri (on the outskirts of Columbia, which is now a city, not a small town anymore). In Florida we lived in a "rural" part of the county where everyone had between 2-5 acres (Obviously "rural" is commensurate with the area but it was considered rural for south Florida) - everyone claimed to be there to be "free" and "do what they want" but what it amounted to was really being loud and obnoxious and faux country - guys driving lifted trucks and "rolling coal" and acting "country", but of course none of them had ever seen a horse or a cow. We rode our horses around the dirt roads and people would get upset if the horse took a dump on the dirt - so much for country. Needless to say, we were part of maybe 2-3% of all people who lived there who used their land to grow food (it is amazing what you can grow even on 1/2 acre). The rest of them shopped at Publix and paid Guatemalans and Mexicans to mow their toxic multi-acre lawns.

Now, we spent time in rural New Mexico and it was nice. The problem with rural NM in general is crime - everything has to be bolted down to something cast in concrete ;). You cannot leave your place for more than a few days and hope that when you come back everything will be there. Most of it is not serious crime but the petty thefts simply wear you down.

I guess my point is - there is rural and then there is rural. They are not all made equal. There is a lot of dependency on local customs, culture, demographics etc. They are not all created equal. But there is a lot of myth around it, both glorified and downplayed misconceptions.

I think rural living has a major upside in the next decades. Cities will become worse and worse - crime, dirt, pollution. Food will start becoming more and more scarce, ditto for water. Whoever grows food for themselves and others (as a business) will be in a good position. We chose an area that has two cities with an hour drive but none of these will expand in our lifetimes to encroach on our area. This is why we are where we are. I am here to stay and they can bury me in the back of the property when it's time to say goodbye.

The same thing happened to Texas Hill country - it is very desirable with Austin being a boom-town and prices have become out of this world for land. More importantly they are sucking down their dwindling water aquifers faster than you can spell the word "aquifer".  

Agreed. Austin is my home town. Not the same as it used to be that's for sure. So I moved to the mountains.

I can't think of many advantages to living in town.  Yes, it would be nice not to have to drive twenty minutes to get to the grocery store, but in our last place it was almost an hour's drive (each way).  And when we lived in the Interior of Alaska, depending on when (I lived near Delta Junction as a child, then in Tok for a few years as an adult with three children) it was either one hundred or two hundred miles to Fairbanks, and around three hundred miles to Anchorage.  So relatively speaking, twenty minutes just isn't all that bad!  And while it would be really nice to not NEED a vehicle, in reality it's hard to find a small town where everything you need is in walking distance, and sometimes we would need to go out of town, so even if we lived in town, I'd still need a vehicle.  

So we aren't in walking distance of very much out here (we can walk to our church, as it's only about half a mile from the house, but have yet to do so), so we still need a vehicle with all the related expenses and maintenance that requires.  That's the only downside to living in a rural area that I can think of.

Kathleen