Jim's Ant log

Hi all, I am ant number 8! I moved into ant village about 3 weeks ago and have been enjoying it a lot. I also visited wheaton labs earlier in the summer for the PDC.

I picked the plot just north of Evan's. It is very wooded and filled with plenty of deer. It even has a small "pond"! So far my focus has been on building an Oehler structure before it gets too cold.

I spent the first few days making paths, clearing a tent site and planning my design. Then I moved on to chopping down trees and peeling logs. Evan helped excavated my hole and built a shared berm between the plots. My friend David is here helping for a bit and we got many of the posts up. Right now the house may look like a big pond with a spillway, but there will be an uphill patio and lots of drainage routes.

The other ants have been very welcoming; teaching me new things, lending tools, and helping out. It is a great place to live.

Jim, it's truly exciting to see your shelter going up. I'm avidly following the progress of Ant Village. I'm rooting for ya!

Lookin' good!

My imagination is running wild! Can you describe the process you used to put the logs up by-hand? Assuming you did it that way.

Looking forward to a photo of each step... each tiny step ;) Great start!

Jim you sexy man glad you made it back out to Montana I look forward to keeping up with your progress. Best of luck and it looks like your shelter is off to a great start.

Added some beams and wall boards

From the map, you guys should have access to Cedar.. is there any cedar on the site?

What other trees are you guys using that might be rot resistant? I know black locust is the BEST for this (used a bunch of that doing wooden ship repair in New England), however I have no idea how much access to that you have, and Im not an expert tree identification dude

Conner: the post were easy to put up by hand. Just slid them in at an angle. With 2 people lifting they aren't too heavy. The beams required scaffolding and lifting them up in steps. Thats what all the random board are in the second post.

Tim: we have access to douglas fir, ponderosa pine and tamarack. Tamarack is the most rot resistant I think I have heard. But I just used a mix of logs based on what trees were best to thin at the dimensions I required.

Today we put up tarps and started tossing dirt on. The windows and door arent in as things may shift some. No pictures of it tatrped as it got dark.

Yestrday made some cob and filled any gaps at the corners and inbetween roof/wall.

Thinking i will do an earthen floor using raw linseed oil. But i have heard it takes a long time to cure and i might be in my tent a few weeks waiting? Any accelerated methods?

Im looking to put in a rocket mass heater in the next week but dont really have a plan. If anyone around for the rmh events wants to give some input or help out, send me a purple moosage. I dont make it down to basecamp often. I can provide some food and beverage for pro helpers!

Hi all, I just returned to the lab and it is great to be back! Was away for a couple months doing work and visitng family. Evan and Kai have the wofati toasty warm and Ill be staying in here until I solve a few unfinished things on my house.

In this first post Im going to post some old pictures of my plot and house at the end of fall.

Here is my stove, in the state it is still in. I need to get to work on this, the cobbing is bad and it leakes around the edges. I also want to make it into a rocket stove by adding a proper heat riser and burn tunnel.

Love your house pics, Jim. It will be awesome if you can keep posting pics going forward. More pics from more points of view! More stories!

I'm really excited by what you guys have been able to accomplish up there in Ant Village, so far, and cannot wait to see the next steps. (offsite projects also welcome )

Kitchen table is made all from lumber on site, milled the boards with a chain saw and david chiseled them flat into place. The tabe is supported by two posts sunk a couple feet into the ground. Itll be hard to tip it over.

And lofted sleeping area is small but big enough for a twin mattress and about 4ft of headroom on the tall side. I have two hooks underneath to hang a hammock for guests.

The second picture is hammering rebar into a beam/post joint.

Unfortunately going away with wet wood in a sealed up house for 2.5months created a great environment for mold to grow. I have quite a lot of work to do before I can move back in.

So far I am thinking I need to re-peal all the posts and beams and sand any mold off in hard to reach crevices. Ill make sure to wear some sort of face mask when doing this. Then I need to get my stove roaring for a week or two to get it real dry inside.

Lastly id like to apply something to kill the mold. Im not sure what would be the most permie treatment. I know many mold treatments for log cabins have fungicide, so definitely off limits. Bleach is frowned upon here but borax is okay in small quantities.

Hoping for input from other permies on a really natural method, thanks.

jim forster wrote:Unfortunately going away with wet wood in a sealed up house for 2.5months created a great environment for mold to grow. I have quite a lot of work to do before I can move back in.

So far I am thinking I need to re-peal all the posts and beams and sand any mold off in hard to reach crevices. Ill make sure to wear some sort of face mask when doing this. Then I need to get my stove roaring for a week or two to get it real dry inside.

Lastly id like to apply something to kill the mold. Im not sure what would be the most permie treatment. I know many mold treatments for log cabins have fungicide, so definitely off limits. Bleach is frowned upon here but borax is okay in small quantities.

Hoping for input from other permies on a really natural method, thanks.

baking soda and/or vinegar.

btw, this looks great!!! keep up the good work =)

I second the baking soda and vinegar idea. We live in the moldy Pacific Northwest, and deal with a lot of mold. We've found that cleaning with vinegar and then applying a coat of baking soda (either sprinkled on or sprayed on as a solution of water and baking soda) has really helped keep our mold at bay. After you clean it, dry it out like you plan to, and that should solve the problem pretty well. Good air circulation will also help. If you can rig a fan up, or put one of these (Ecofan) expensive doodads on your wood stove, that should also help. Try not to put anything right next to your walls while you are drying it out.

Supposdly you can make your own stove fan, though we have not done so. Here's an instructable I found: http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Stove-Fan-for-under-50/.



Here's hoping your battle against mold is successful!

How about tea tree oil or some other fungicidal essential oil?

Hi first post here I like what you are doing with the place. Any pics on the waterproofing where the structure is in contact with the soil im intrsted in building into a hillside i just cant get past the feeling im going to end up with damp isues.
As far as the mould ive heard good thi gs about alcohole and borax it soaks into the wood and displaces the moisture then drise faster leaving behind borax in the wood preventing future rot and mould a trick i learned from an old wooden boat builder

Brian Karlsen wrote:Hi first post here I like what you are doing with the place. Any pics on the waterproofing where the structure is in contact with the soil im intrsted in building into a hillside i just cant get past the feeling im going to end up with damp isues.
As far as the mould ive heard good thi gs about alcohole and borax it soaks into the wood and displaces the moisture then drise faster leaving behind borax in the wood preventing future rot and mould a trick i learned from an old wooden boat builder

Welcome Brian! Thanks for the borax tip, perhaps that would be a good way to treat the posts before they go in the ground as well. Regarding your waterproofing concerns, if you are going to build into a hillside you need to build with an uphill patio, otherwise you WILL have damp problems as the water seeping down the hillside backs up behind your house. Look up Mike Oehler and his $50 and up underground house book, he is a big inspiration for us Ants and our houses.

Citrus peel oil is excellent for killing mold.

CitraSolv is formulated for cleaning:
www.citrasolv.com
www.amazon.com/Citra-Solv-Concentrate-Valencia-Orange/dp/B00J5HL9HC/ref=sr_1_4?s=grocery&ie=UTF8&qid=1442797201&sr=8-4&keywords=Citra+Solv

Citrus Solvent is formulated as a replacement for mineral spirits, paint thinner, or turpentine. It is 98% pure orange peel oil and 2% water.
www.realmilkpaint.com/products/oils/citrus-solvent/
www.amazon.com/Real-Milk-Paint-Citrus-Solvent/dp/B007RO1TW0/ref=aag_m_pw_dp?ie=UTF8&m=A1LCKUQQ2KM8BJ

One way I have used CitraSolv in the kitchen is to clean plastic containers that got lost in the refrigerator long enough for the contents to become a "science experiment." After emptying the container (for compost), soak container in dish water for 10–20 minutes to which a couple of good squirts of CitraSolv have been added. Most containers will pass the "sniff test" after washing and air drying in this manner.

CitraSolv is also a nice addition to laundry—helps to remove mustiness.

Citrus Solvent mixes well with (boiled) linseed oil.

Brian Karlsen wrote: Any pics on the waterproofing where the structure is in contact with the soil i'm interested in building into a hillside i just cant get past the feeling im going to end up with damp issues.

Building into a hillside requires less earth work but it requires more material consideration. Check you local requirement for a daylight basement; it is the same thing. It requires a back fill of drainage rock with drain tile below grade level. Recommend you start a thread on your proposed project @ earth berm construction You can post pictures of your site and get recommendations from those that have experience.

Depending on financial resources and local availability, "Soda Blasting" can quickly and effectively remove mold from surfaces.

"Soda Blasting" is basically sandblasting with dry ice as a medium, with pellets in a size very much like sand.

Since there's no liquid carrier, there's no additional moisture introduced into the structure.

It's readily available in more urban areas.

Another benefit is there is no sand to dispose of. What comes off is the mold and the top surface of the [substrate] wood. The pellets evaporate.

The pellets can get down to clean, fresh wood - you can see the transition from the mold, to the top surface with the mold [I'm going to call them 'tendrils'] growing down into the substrate [your house], down to fresh wood. Leaves it a little rough, but gets the job done quickly.

You do have to be careful and make sure you have ventilation, but not just because you're disturbing the mold.

There have been too many stories of fast-food restaurant workers being killed by a soda vendor CO2 delivery.

I mention this technique because dry ice can be a byproduct of other processes, and so it's close to CO2 neutral. In fact, depending on the producer, it reuses the CO2 before it gets released again into the atmosphere.

Beware of what you do with boron-containing residu. Soils in the US (and Australia ?) are often boron-depleted but elsewhere that's not much of an issue. Boron may harm your soil fungi and soil quality in general - see attachment.

Borax and boric acid is being used industrially to impregnate wood to keep fungi out. It do's work but not indefinetely. The wood will rot eventually. Also check out potential health issues for living inside a structure that is build of such wood. Some boron treated wood is not fit for indoor use in Belgium. I have no idea how that translates in US-standards.


So if you treat wood to keep out wood-eating organisms do your basic research and keep it safe. Tell others of your experiences.


A few observations.

1 Most rot and fungi prevention is based on making the wood toxic to bacteria, fungi and insects. Natural essential oils are a great way to whack fungi but not all natural essential oils are good for indoor use. Check out whether there are potential lingering health effects.
There are so-called 'nature friendly fungicides' out there - take that with a pinch of salt. I researched propiconazole and cypermethrine once. There was very little good, recent and independant research.
I attached a paper on soil toxity. Basicly, compost is a great way to detox your soil.

2 In nature and in archeological context you find well preserved wood when either moisture is kept away (eg egyptian boat graves near the pyramids) or by keeping oxygen away (burried viking ships, medieval foundations (Venice, Brugges, Amsterdam, ....).

Structures buried in blue clay keep for a long time because the blue clay keeps oxygen and rot away. I dug out a WWI artillery post in 2012. The wood was stil fine. I don't know wether that wood was creosoted but the Ypres Clay and the wet soil conditions sure played a big part as is proved in numerous locations on the WWI-battlefields of Flanders.
In the former Zuider Zee area (present day Flevoland polder) in the Netherlands old ship wrecks are preserved by keeping them wet and anoxic.


Perhaps there is something to learn from the viking turf house constructions on Iceland ? Those are strictly speaking not underground.

One of the comments I came across while researching the Ger (aka Yurt) is that they like to be lived in and work best with a daily fire. A ger left vacant will smell and go moldy.

It sounds to me like there is a parallel here. I think at least that air flow while vacant is very important. Old barns or ganaries left unused for years but with open doors do not seem to have mold in this way. I also think that smoke kills mold and other things (including some that crawl).

hey jim... sorry to see and read that. mold is not a nice thing.

has the wood still been wet, when you built it?

i think, it ll get better, when the RMH is running and the structure has dried out.

i wonder, how the backsides of the panels might look?

has anybody tried painting with limewash? it will crumble off after some time, but might help to protect. has anybody thought of plastering/painting it with clay? i read, that clay will preserve wood. cause clay will want to stay very dry, so it sucks the moisture out of the wood.

there s a thing. up in denmark, they rent houses for tourists. these are vacant in the winter. so they often had problems with mold. they came up with a way how to heat/dry them. they use a solar collector thing like in the solar food drier. but it has a small solar cell and a fan. the fan will only run, when there s sun. so only warm and dry air will be used to vent the structure.

Thanks for all the suggestions on mold! I vinegar'ed my posts and beams and the mold pretty much wiped right off. It still smells a bit moldy inside though. I am not sure how to apply the baking soda, should I just wipe it on dry? I bought some borax that I may try to retroactively treat some of my posts underground with but I plan to do more research on this and probably wait until the ground thaws.

I got a tiny wood stove for now. Not yet sure how I want to do the final implementation of my rocket heater and it is too cold to make cob. The tiny wood stove does a pretty good job. I have gotten the place over 80degrees but it takes a lot of paying attention to the stove and feeding it. I got some sheet metal to weld into a radiator on the first stove pipe and use a fan in front of. Hoping I can capture some of that wasted wood stove heat.

I've been distracted by researching and building our well digging operation. We made it down to about 25feet, but then hit some rock! 50 hammers with a rockbar didn't see to break anything up. It would have to be very fragile rock to crumble into small enough pieces for this bit to pick it up.

The steel extension rods I made from 11 guage square tubing. Every foot adds about 1.5lbs including all the hardware. I think we could have gotten away with aluminum and about 1/5th the weight per foot. At 30feet long, the drill is very unwieldy. Im thinking we will dig a new hole tomorrow right near the other one and see if we hit rock at the same depth or get luckier.

I am planning to finish the floor in my house with linseed oil. Some of the instruction online call for very complicated layering of gravel and different types of clay. And then oiling the top surface. I think I am too lazy to do anything besides just oil the top surface. Anybody know much about earthen floors and if this will have some success? I dont care if it cracks some. I just want to control the dust and be able to take off my shoes.

Some pictures

Hi Jim. I volunteered during an earthen floor build and from what I gathered, the sub floor was prepared by doing a couple layers of cob about 3 to 4 inches thick, and letting them dry. The final layer was a fine cob mix about 1 inch thick, spread out with a metal float much like pouring a concrete slab. My whole first day there was spent throwing sand through a 1/8 inch screen to separate the sharp sand from the silty soft sand. The final cob mix was worked out from test batches with different proportions of sharp sand, silt sand, screened clay slip,and chopped straw. Once the final layer was laid down, checking for level along the way, it was let dry to leather hard and then gone over again with a float and spray bottle of water, pressing down to make a harder smoother surface. I didn't get to be there for this step or the ones following, but I believe it is then left to dry and the linseed oil is rubbed in over a few applications.

This was a professional application for a community kitchen and dining space, but I imagine for your application you could get away with packing down the dirt that is there with a tamper and probably some water to dampen it. Then you could pour the final 1 inch cob layer over that and have a beautiful floor. My thoughts are that it will be very difficult to get the existing dirt to be level and evenly packed without the softer spots becoming uneven over time. It is a lot easier to level out a surface as you add to it using a wet cob mix, than it is to even out an existing surface.

Here is the floor I helped with, at quail springs permaculture farm in California.

i don t think, that you could pour cob. as far as i remember it ll crack alot. but you could test a small batch and see.


at the moment, your floor looks like sand. you would need to get that out and tamper damp cob. i would wait with that, until your structure is dried up (or when you heat alot in cold, dry weather). this first layer will be OK as floor, but not really that nice.

there are some youtube vids on earthen floors. when you have the mixture right, it should be doable. some people add color pigments into the floor. or use different colored clay.
some cracking is normal, just wet it a bit and fill the cracks with your cob mix. no problem. you can do several layers, until you get to the point when it s ok. use a few coats of (boiled) linseed oil when you like the floor.

you could finish it with a kind of paper-bag floor. it might look good and feell warmer to the feet. but for that, the structure should be very well dried out. there are videos on youtube and blogs online. could be a very nice thing. it would cover up a somehwat messed up and ugly earthen floor.

do you measure air-humidity?

good luck and blessings

tobias

Jim,
You should be commended on working on the (lack of) water as I see that as the major set back in having a viable home site. I sent you a carbon monoxide detector as your reward.... There should be a compost thermometer and thermometer/hydrometer in the package too. Maybe you all can get reading in the greenhouse and other places.

As for the well drilling. I know it would be nice to have the well close, but have you thought about going up to where the stream disappears on State land and then based on its vector and the contours of the land seeing if you can drill and find it on the labs land? That would be a success (expecially if it is uphill and gravity is your friend) and then maybe you can extrapolate from there where to look next closer to the village. What do you think?

Rob

jim forster wrote:. I am not sure how to apply the baking soda, should I just wipe it on dry?

I've wiped it on dry (I tend to sprinkle it on, but that's a bit more difficult on a vertical surface.) My husband likes to add it to water and spray it on. He puts about a tablespoon in a 1 cup spray bottle, but he thinks that might be overkill. We leave it on to prevent the return of mold, but that will will make you wood look dusty white, though (our walls are white, so it doesn't matter).

Here's some info I found about using baking soda online: http://removemoldguide.com/do-it-yourself/how-to-get-rid-of-mold/

How to Get Rid of Mold with Baking Soda

Baking Soda is a convenient solution to mold problems. It is inexpensive, helps prevent future mold growth, and deodorizes.

Recipe
Baking Soda -Detergent Solution: 1/2 cup baking soda, 1 cup water, 1 Tbsp mild liquid detergent

Baking soda-Water Solution: ¼ to ½ Tbsp of baking soda to a spray bottle of water

Surfaces
Any surface, but use sparingly on pourous surfaces if it can’t dry out completely. Works best on non-pourous surfaces like tile and vinyl.

Application
Spray area thoroughly and wipe with rag or scrub with appropriate semi-abrasive tool. Wipe away. Spray lightly again with the baking soda-water solution,and let dry thoroughly, the solution will naturally discourage new mold growth.

Cautions
This is a low-risk substance. No strong fumes or odors, non-toxic, and safe for the environment.

How it works
Baking soda has a ph of about 8, which is too high for mold to thrive. The high ph not only kills mold, but discourages new mold from coming back.

Advantages
No toxic fumes, environmentally safe, deodorizes, inexpensive.

Disadvantages
Not as strong as bleach, commercial products, or even some other natural cleaners.

you could do some milk paint. I don't know exactly how good it is at keeping away the mold but I would suspect it better than leaving the wood unfinished as such.

did a quick net search and seems like 6oz hydrated lime to 1/2 gallon skim milk is a good base recipe. more lime giving you more opaque finish. and of course you can add in powdered pigment. and there is tons of natural pigment you could use if you wanted colored.

also saw that a few places said to add 4oz linseed oil to that recipe.

Kadence, that seems like a really good idea! If baking soda is too alkaline for mold to grow, than surely the paint you describe would be helpful, as lime is even more alkaline than baking soda!


I did a quick search for milk paint and mold, and multiple sites (http://www.realmilkpaint.com/products/paint/outdoor-additive/, https://carverjunkcompany.com/furniture-paint-faqs/) say it naturally inhibits mold growth.

I did find one place (http://greenhomeguide.com/know-how/article/selecting-green-paint) that said not to use it in high moisture areas, as mold can grow:

After application, heavy moisture can damage milk-based paint and lead to mold growth, and so it is unsuitable for the kitchen or bathroom; it is best on raw, clean wood, where it gives a soft, old-world look

Another page (http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/QandA/materials/paint.htm) talks about using milk paint in the bathroom, and making sure it has weeks to cure before adding moisture:

Milk paint can be used in bathrooms. You should know that although it feels dry to the touch really fast, that it doesn't cure fully for a couple of weeks. With that in mind, you should not be introducing water vapor into the bathroom for a couple of weeks for best results. I would suggest lime casein (lime milk paint) over borax casein as it is much stronger. the Olde Fashioned Milk Paint Company sells it in powder with the lime and pigment already added

concerning the milk paint:
when the structure is dry and the RMH is running, then it would not be wet like a bathroom. when dried out, the would and cob would act as a moisture buffer

before doing this paint, make sure, the wood is clean. it would help to paint it with pure lime. that will crumble. but when you add a layer of lime-milk-paint later, that will bind the crumbling lime. perhaps try that on a small surface. lime-wash paint is kinda cheap and "all natural"

i just used the limewash to paint the window-reveals (indoor)

For the baking soda, I applied some dry with a sponge. And then in hard to reach areas I took small amounts and just chucked it at the ceiling. Made a mess but probably 75% stuck.

Milk paint sounds like a neat idea. Ill keep it in mind and maybe apply some in the summer once everything is fully dry.

Rob, thanks for all your ant love lately. Lots of attempts have been made at getting water, this is another shot in the dark. We are drilling in the draw behind ant village. It is the same contour line that would be a creek if the spring didn't disappear. The spring is quite a hike away and wouldn't save much effort than going to basecamp for water.

Jesse, that floor looks really nice. I think my floor is mostly clay. It sticks and packs well when wetted. I was thinking I coul wet it a little, then tamp and flatten it. And apply the oil right to it.

i just read that baking soda will be even more alkaline if you dissolve it in hot water. it then sheds its "carbon-acid" and will change into the more alkaline natrium-carbonat

Moved back in a little over two weeks ago. Removed a wallboard opposite the door and put a screen over it. Helps with crossflow. At night I close it up with some cardboard.

Installed solar power. Its a 75watt system; so far have had plenty of power for charging phone, running lights, using a drill, and even movie night. Living in luxury.

Tried some stuff on my dirt floor. First attempt I just tamped the silt, wattered it and then spread on linseed oil. It looked like a nice dark, solid finish. But, smeared immediately when rubbig it. I waited 2 days to dry.

Second attempt I added half sand. Same result. Guess I am going to need some clay. I have also read about adding lime, but gotta chat with Paul on that.

It has been awhile since I have updated. I have been very busy fixing up my house, planting seeds, and digging wells! Beans and potatoes look like they are growing really well. I planted about 30 lbs of potatoes, need to dig a root cellar before fall. I have harvested 3 radishes already. Soon the service berries will be ready for picking.

I installed a wood floor in most of my house. The portion around the wood stove has a linseed earthen floor. It turned out pretty well but took a couple weeks to dry. Luckily I could avoid walking in that part.

After several months of use, 75 watts of solar power is more than enough. I only ran out of power once because I forgot to turn off the power for a day while I was away. The real test will be December and January.

I got to travel with Jessie to Mike Oehlers houses last month. Was really inspiring to see earth integrated buildings that stood the test of time.