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no make-up / natural beauty  RSS feed

 
Jocelyn Campbell
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I grew up in the Seattle area, which has always had a fairly healthy contingent of folks who prefer natural beauty. Our neighbors had a teenage nephew visit from Teneesee where big, coiffed hair, lots of make-up and lots of shellacked fingernails were more normal. He wondered why they weren't more pretty girls in Seattle because that painted, coiffed look meant pretty to him.

The cool thing is, there has been some recent lovely media attention about going without makeup (let alone some of the reveals about the fashion industry air-brushing and such). I thought permies might like to talk about going without make-up (is it makeup or make-up?).

Here's a lovely piece from lowimpact.org about Alicia Keys going without makeup http://www.lowimpact.org/alicia-keys-giving-makeup/. With these two pictures:





Isn't she lovely? Lowimpact.org's article lists four key reasons why going without makeup is a good thing, though I think there are even more.

Then of course there is Colbie Caillat's music video "Try" which shows all kinds of women with and (supposedly) without makeup:



I've gone back and forth a bit with makeup. As a teenager in the '80's it was lots of eye makeup . Then in my 20's no makeup - everything as natural as I knew how to do back then. In my 30's, I started wearing makeup at my corporate job, then gave it up in my 40's again.

When your face starts to wrinkle, even the best makeup often ends up accentuating those fine lines. So I think at older ages, ironically, you can look younger without it!

In my 20's and now, I LOVE that no makeup is (usually) a toxinectomy, healthier for my skin (and eyes, eyelashes, nails, hair, etc.), far more frugal (d'oh) and a time saver, to boot!

Other thoughts or struggles with makeup?


 
Joseph Lofthouse
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Hmm... How to reply to this topic while being nice?

I'll just say that if a woman has a painted face, that I judge her as being shallow. So ladies, if you ever come to my farm for a visit, and hope to gain my respect, or attract my attention, you'd better come without makeup. If you want to turn me off, or have me classify you into the category of people that I won't hang out with, then go ahead and apply some make up.

And, if you show up with dyed hair, I'm going to question your judgment, because to me, the first rule of healthy living is "don't poison yourself". I consider hair dyes to be dangerous, and that it's reckless to use them. I don't like hanging out with people that recklessly poison themselves. Because if they are poisoning themselves with hair dye, then who knows what poisons they are putting into the food that they might offer me at a pot-luck dinner, or that they might expose me to from their clothes or bodies.

Then there is the social aspects of makeup. It's a product of The Corporation. I choose to hang out with people who are less connected to The Corporation and it's culture.

From a purely pragmatic standpoint... I have come to associate painted faces with other chemicals that I consider dangerous, like those in: soaps, detergents, -cides, dryer sheets, fabric dyes, deodorants, antiperspirants, perfumes, food additives, new car smell, etc... So to protect myself, I don't hang out with painted ladies.



 
Jocelyn Campbell
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Joseph, I do agree with your opinions on all the social, respect and toxin aspects of makeup!

I know that when I had a daily makeup habit (in my teens and then again in my 30's), I liked being able to cover up the many skin blemishes that I used to struggle with, and it seemed "normal" to have a made up face. So much so that my face felt plain and even ugly without it. Even though I knew I had fallen prey to an artificial scam perpetuated by a fucked up fashion industry! I knew that then, and it was still hard to go back to wearing no makeup - I remember that clearly!

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:
From a purely pragmatic standpoint... I have come to associate painted faces with other chemicals that I consider dangerous, like those in: soaps, detergents, -cides, dryer sheets, fabric dyes, deodorants, antiperspirants, perfumes, food additives, new car smell, etc...

While in broad strokes I think this could be very true (have you heard about lead in the reddest of the red lipsticks - ugh!!), there are more and more natural, or natural ingredient-based cosmetics, including oodles of blog posts and internet DIY tutorials on how to make your own healthier cosmetics. For those struggling to feel okay without makeup, or where it might be required for stage or TV or a performance career (when you're not as successful as Alicia Keys), as strange as it might sound to some permies, these natural alternatives are a possible first step, or wheaton eco scale level 1 or something, in heading down the path to more natural beauty.

One comment I received on my Facebook post about this was that in typically makeup-wearing circles, a woman who opts out is treated as less intelligent. While what Joseph is describing, or in a more permie environment, opting out sounds like it means just the opposite!

Which all is to say, I'd like to leave room for folks to discuss less toxic makeup (even with "no make-up" in the subject line), transitioning to no makeup, social fallout or challenges, too. I'd like to hope it's getting easier with celebreties taking stands like this, though I think for a LOT of women, it's still very difficult to go without makeup.

 
David Livingston
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Historically many make up products have been toxic gick of the worst kind .
Swift as ever said it best https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lady's_Dressing_Room
The sadest thing is those folks who bleach there skin to be pale ... I'm not black and have never had a black or otherwise none " white " partner ( although not for want of trying at times in the past ) be proud of you are and what you are !


David
 
Jocelyn Campbell
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David Livingston wrote:Historically many make up products have been toxic gick of the worst kind .
Swift as ever said it best https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lady's_Dressing_Room
The sadest thing is those folks who bleach there skin to be pale ... I'm not black and have never had a black or otherwise none " white " partner ( although not for want of trying at times in the past ) be proud of you are and what you are !


David

Yes, even straight-up toxins were used! I don't know if Swift mentions or refers to this in his poem, but I heard somewhere that Victorian women used atropa belladonna, or deadly nightshade, in small quantities to flush their cheeks and dialate their pupils to look more attractive. Of course, there were the unfortunate overdoses as well, if I recall.
 
David Livingston
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forget about the past in India and africa there are folks using lead oxide to look paler today as we speak
!
 
Joseph Lofthouse
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Last night, I was weeding the garden, and my skin was glistening beautifully. I couldn't help staring at my arms. I was admiring the coating on my body: A sheen of sweat. No makeup could ever be so beautiful.
 
David Livingston
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belle adonna lit translation beautiful woman
They also used the herb "eye bright ' goodness knows whats in that

David
 
Jocelyn Campbell
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David Livingston wrote:forget about the past in India and africa there are folks using lead oxide to look paler today as we speak
!


Ah, so sadly true! I did not mean to skip over your excellent point. I'm hopeful we can change this. Perhaps our information overload, intraweb/internetherworld tech can be a force for good in this regard.
 
R Scott
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I have noticed as our family improves our diet and detoxifies more of ourselves, my wife and daughters have a much brighter and younger looking complexion. Their inner beauty isn't clouded with toxins.

What some black people do to their hair to meet someone else ideal of beauty is just obscene. The chemicals in hair straightener are just nasty. It would be assault or abuse to put that stuff on someone, but they do it to themselves.
 
Galadriel Freden
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I have never worn much make up. I gave it up entirely several years ago (I'm in my 30s now) but even before, I wore just mascara and lipstick and only for special events. In my village, there are a lot of women who don't wear it, although that may be an economic thing (it's a very low income, working class area). I sometimes see women wearing it and feel like it can detract from their appearance--though of course not always. To me, it signals different things about a person: like maybe she's insecure about her freckles, or about ageing. Or it can signal that she's serious about her job and wants to climb the career ladder.

Women wear make up for all sorts of reasons. I choose not to for my own reasons: I'm lazy, for one. I don't like yucky stuff on me. I feel happy about about my natural appearance--actually I don't care much how I look! I prefer the look of no make up on other women too, though I don't begrudge them if they choose to wear it. I would also never tell anyone she would look better without make up, even if that's what I think.
 
Tracy Wandling
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Great topic. I haven't worn makeup in probably 20 years or more. Like you, Jocelyn, I did the 80s thing, but not really a lot of makeup. I rarely wore all the foundation stuff, but I did do weird things with eyeshadow.

I have just always found makeup very heavy and uncomfortable; plus, I'm lazy. lol! Sleep in, or get up early to 'do' my face? I'll go for sleep in every time! And it's crazy expensive, some of that stuff!

I think women just need more encouragement to let go of their makeup regimes. It is promising to see more 'go natural' in the media. Sometimes people feel they need permission to do something, or wait until lots of other people are doing it, before they do it themselves. So hopefully that will help give women the inspiration to let it go.

Natural beauty products, as you said, may definitely help in the transition for some. The commercial 'natural' products are still quite expensive though. The makeup industry is all just a huge money grab, while making women feel inadequate. So, I'm all for women going natural, and letting the big corps rot. Make your own, and when you get tired of making your own, you'll be just as beautiful without it!

I also find it interesting that the first two people to respond to this post were men. Men can be a big help in letting women know that they don't need makeup to be attractive. Although, it might be a teeny bit better to uplift the women who don't wear makeup, rather than putting down the women that do, in my oh so humble opinion. Those 'shallow' women might just be insecure. I know what you meant, Joseph, and that you were just sharing your inner thoughts here with us, but just something to keep in mind . . .

Anyway, good topic, Jocelyn!

Cheers
Tracy



 
Galadriel Freden
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R Scott wrote:I have noticed as our family improves our diet and detoxifies more of ourselves, my wife and daughters have a much brighter and younger looking complexion. Their inner beauty isn't clouded with toxins.



Some of us are born this way but seriously, I noticed my teeth were whiter, my hair glossier and thicker, and my skin much clearer when we began eating low carb/primal five years ago. I tell people I'm 25 and they believe me!
 
Nicole Alderman
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The only make-up I've ever worn was stage make-up in Jr High during a play, and some concealer around my eyes when I got married (my cousin convinced me it would help with the lights). And, once when a friend put some on my face to show me how awesome it was. Her doing my face was my birthday present to her, lol!

I'm just too lazy to spend the time applying make-up, I don't care for the toxins, and I want to be loved and appreciated for who I am. In high school, one big reason I didn't dress nicely or wear make-up is because I wanted people to like me for who I was, not for my appearance...and I didn't want to be seen as a sex-object, which so many of the other girls seemed to be trying to be so as to attract boys.

I also started greying at 18 (everyone in my family does, so I knew it was coming), and I choose to just go grey like my mother. I never knew my mother as not having noticeably grey hair, and when I started having noticeably grey hair, too, it was another indicator that it was time to have kids!

I've never really struggled with not having make-up. Perhaps it's because I never had much acne or skin blemishes, and knew that make-up often caused those blemishes (food and hormone play a big part, too!). I can see that having blemishes/acne would make one want to use make-up. For a few months after I gave birth, I had really blotchy, acne-ridden skin; and it was really hard for me. I never thought I would miss having people complement me on my "porceline skin," and then having someone complement my son's skin but not mine was hard. I can see how it would be hard to go without make-up and the complements that likely came with it. I also went into a career where make-up doesn't really matter: education. The only problem I ever had was the fact that my friends/coworkers of the feminine gender always wanted me to put make-up on...almost like an alchololic always wants you to drink, too.

Like Joeseph, seeing people with noticeable make-up (or really fashionable clothes, etc) makes me not trust them, and I really try to change that inclination because I know I shouldn't judge.
 
Dale Hodgins
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I never wear makeup of any kind. My natural beauty is overwhelming enough.

Sometimes, I see women who are extremely wrinkled, and they're wearing lots of makeup. I have to wonder which came first, the wrinkles or the makeup.

Too much makeup seems to go hand-in-hand with really awkward high heel shoes and stinky hair products or perfume.

A family member mentioned that they hadn't seen Kathy in some time. I told him that I'm not sure that I've ever seen Kathy, other than maybe her eyes. She wears so much makeup that it cracks when she smiles.
.....
I am probably more judgmental than most people. When I see someone who is caked in makeup, I assume that some or all of the following may be true.

1.The woman beneath the makeup is probably not very attractive and is compensating by painting over her face.

2. She is gullible and easy prey for advertisers.

3. She lacks self-esteem.

4. She is financially inept and possibly not very intelligent.

Those are just the first few things that popped into my head. I'm sure the list could go on. I have known several heavy makeup wearers who turned out to be vastly different than my first impression. But first impressions do count. If I were conducting a job interview and someone showed up looking silly, that would go in the negative column.
20160331_093838.jpg
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David Livingston
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Dale
Whilst it is said that beauty is in the eye of the beholder I am not sure if that applies to selfies

David
 
Dale Hodgins
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Well said David.

I think there is a socio-economic aspect to really poorly done makeup. When I see a girl covered in too much, I generally don't stand too close in outdoor spaces. This is because there is a good chance that she will light a cigarette. Where I live, that is something done more often by people at the bottom of the ladder.
 
K Putnam
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I like the sentiment of the OP.

I dye my hair as a form of self-expression, not to meet someone else's standard of beauty. And I have tattoos. I am not pouring RoundUp in the soup.

And I am pretty damn tired of men judging a woman's personality by her appearance.

Moving on.

I use a lovely honey-oat face wash and finish with apricot kernel oil or natural-oil sunscreen in the summer. For an important event, I put on some mineral makeup and a touch of mascara. No apologies.
 
Judith Browning
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The last time I wore make up was about ninth grade, so that would have been 1964 I blame peer pressure and Seventeen magazine...and people like my paternal grandma who thought I would look 'healthier' with make up because I always had pale skin.....

I won't judge others though who feel like wearing it. I think it's another one of those choices we can make and hopefully for the right reasons. I have young grand daughters who have fun wearing crazy makeup (and hair colors) and they are both just naturally beautiful without any at all. I have gay guy friends who occasionally enjoy the full artistic beauty of a 'mask' of makeup.....I guess the damaging side (both in toxicity and self esteem) is for anyone to wear makeup who feels they need it to be beautiful or to try to fulfill someone else's version of 'beautiful'.

I was at the hardware store one time and a school teacher of our son's came in and immediately started apologizing for coming out without her makeup...to me of all people She said she felt naked without it and that even her husband rarely saw her without any...amazing!
 
William Bronson
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R Scott wrote:I have noticed as our family improves our diet and detoxifies more of ourselves, my wife and daughters have a much brighter and younger looking complexion. Their inner beauty isn't clouded with toxins.

What some black people do to their hair to meet someone else ideal of beauty is just obscene. The chemicals in hair straightener are just nasty. It would be assault or abuse to put that stuff on someone, but they do it to themselves.


This is not limited to black people. Many people of various races chemically straiten their hair.
When they do, it is not to meet someone else ideal, it is an ideal they hold for them selves.
The exception is when it is done to fit in to majority culture, and get a job, etc.

I understand the distaste, when I met my college roommate, he had straitened hair, and I thought he was gay, but no , he was "just" a dandy.
Yes, I was very ignorant. I now know more about LGBTQ culture and am (less) biased against dandies. I can even appreciate their form of personal expression, just not their preoccupation with it.
I personally look great in black lipstick, eyeliner and mascara, but I only wear it for special occasions. Too mush work, and likely to smear.

As far as people bringing toxins into my space, my wife has come to respect my dislike for ALL kinds of strong scents, and yes I will hold my breath if someone passing by looks like they might use cologne, perfume or just a lot of any kind of stinky stuff. Pepperment oil actually puts me into a persistent half blind fog.
Joseph, do you hold the same attitude toward those who drink,smoke up, dip, or chew, smoke up, eat nitrates, factory meat, piercings, tattoos,etc? Is it just that the make-up is a visual signal?
I see make up,odorants ,fashion consciousness,or ironed clothing as a sign that someone has different priorities than me. I am sure they see (and smell !)me in a similar way.
Of course when I read people here obsessing about the least exposure to manufactured chemicals, or gmo crops, I also realize we have different priorities.
When I see a woman "dolled up" I mentally subtract her decorations and see whats left. I judge her looks, but apparently so does she does as well, so why not?
What I don't do is judge her BY her looks.


I wonder, if we were looking at a group of hunter-gathers with hair stiffed with dung, faces painted with naturally occurring lead oxides and fingernails darkened by repeated crushing of the finger tips, would we judge so harshly?
I suspect not.I made up some extreme examples but there are plenty of traditional practices that put appearance first over health. If one shows sign of disease, economic distress or other shortcomings, concealing or distraction from that fact can mean you still get to mate!

The whole question of beauty is vexing. We are not to judge a person on their appearance? But every woman is beautiful? My person expresses my values, as in Paul's overalls, or someones else's designer purse, so it doesn't seem right to ignore what people might be trying to tell us.
Most of us seem to want the appreciation of our visual appearance by others, but only if we approve of the source and the manner in which the complement is delivered.
The right person,checking you out in the right way.

Obsession with the personal appearance of women is often laid at the feet of men, but I have yet to meet a woman who couldn't find a mate of some sort-if she was willing to compromise on looks, income,values, personality,etc, which are the trade-offs that we all face.
I think that any person who places a high value on physical beauty, natural or otherwise, will suffer for for that lack of judgment. I know many people with pretty, useless spouses.They are miserable, but hey, he or she is pretty right?

If you are concerned with your own looks, why?
I miss having a trim body, because I was strong, fast and agile.
It was also the ultimate set of peacock feathers, combined with tight black clothing.
My wife liked what she saw, but if she loved me for that look, she would have left me by now.
I remain a provider, a help-meet,a father, friend and lover, despite being weaker, slower, and clumsier.
I ain't looking for another mate, so my bodily appearance doesn't matter.
I got acne, but I only notice when it hurts, I am fat but I notice that when it hinders me,I need a haircut when it itches, or I am looking for a job, going to an event etc.
We have mirrors, but I have to remind myself to look. When I do, I notice a patina of scars,like the surface of an old anvil.

I teach my children to care about their appearance because people mistreat children who look unkempt. That can be on the streets, or in the class room.
Being able to play nice with the worlds expectations is an important survival skill
Humans remain the most dangerous and useful creature in our personal ecosystems, so it behooves us to know how to use camouflage and threat displays.

So that's me, but I am me.

If you care about your appearance, why do you? I am curious.

 
Joseph Lofthouse
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William Bronson wrote:Joseph, do you hold the same attitude toward those who drink,smoke up, dip, or chew, smoke up, eat nitrates, factory meat, piercings, tattoos,etc? Is it just that the make-up is a visual signal?


I'm generally critical about people poisoning themselves, from whatever source... I'm blessed/cursed with looking at a person and discerning the nature of the poisons that they are consuming, and/or the nutrient deficiencies that they are subjecting themselves to. Ever watched the people entering a store on a bright sunny day? About 10% exhibit the symptoms of vitamin A deficiency...

One of my neighbors sprays more poisons on his lawn and garden than anyone I know. I've been expecting the family to get sick. I was heartbroken recently to read in the paper that his prepubescent son has a rare form of cancer...

At the farmer's market today, I was paying close attention to people's looks... Cutting one's clothes up to be fashionable just seems wasteful to me. I'm not interested in piercing myself, because it would be dangerous, with as much physical labor as I do, to have metallic objects begging to catch on something, and rip my flesh as they come out.

I watch what people eat at restaurants, and what they put in their shopping carts, and I look at their physical and mental health and judge them. My pool of possible friends is narrowed considerably by not wanting to hang out with people that might poison me because they poison themselves so blithely.

 
Nicole Alderman
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Joseph Lofthouse wrote:
I'm generally critical about people poisoning themselves, from whatever source... I'm blessed/cursed with looking at a person and discerning the nature of the poisons that they are consuming, and/or the nutrient deficiencies that they are subjecting themselves to. Ever watched the people entering a store on a bright sunny day? About 10% exhibit the symptoms of vitamin A deficiency...


How can you tell? I've always wondered what the physical signs were for various deficiencies (the only one I know of is lack of iron leading to lack of redness in skin, but it's hard to tell because people's natural skin tone varies so much!). Thanks!
 
Nicole Alderman
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Jocelyn Campbell wrote:

Then of course there is Colbie Caillat's music video "Try" which shows all kinds of women with and (supposedly) without makeup:





I just watched the video, and I was amazed at--how in my mind--those without the makeup on looks so much more innocent, trustworthy and childlike. To me, that's a good thing.

But, is that just me? I remember a friend took part in a Mary K (or some such organization's) before & after promotion. There were hundreds--maybe thousands--of other women, all posting pictures of themselves without makeup and then their "improved" looks with make-up on. When I looked at those pictures, my brain interpreted all their after pictures as people who I would trust less than their before pictures. I also found their before pictures almost all looked better.

I have to assume that they thought their pictures with makeup looked better. Is my perception of beauty and a appearance really this different from the norm? If so, I really wonder why. Is it because I'm used to looking at myself without makeup? Is it because I might have aspergers? Is it because people who wore makeup and were stylish picked on me in school? Why do others like their appearance better with makeup? (I mean, I understand covering up things like pimples or circles under the eyes from being tired, or attempting to look like one did when one was younger, because that's the self one identifies with...but makeup usually goes way beyond that...)

I find it fascinating to contemplate what contributes to our definitions of beauty.
 
Destiny Hagest
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I'm somewhat divided on this topic - I've always been a bit artsy, and was a big sketcher as a teenager. When I started wearing makeup in high school, I just loved the process of putting it on and the things I could do to my appearance with a few cosmetics.

Of course, as I got older and more aware of what was in them, I started moving away from conventional cosmetics, not only because of their very loose regulation by the FDA, but dammit, they're just expensive! I found a place I could order bulk pigments and raw minerals, and not only were the colors the most intense and vibrant I'd ever seen, but it was insanely cheap.

So I'm half on one side, half on the other. Unlike a lot of women, I don't feel obligated to wear makeup. Some days I wear it, some days I don't, but when I do, I always enjoy the application and the effect - it's not a prettier me, just a different face, a different version of me. I'm the same way with hair dye and high heels.

I'm just as likely to be muddy and barefoot in the garden as I am in a mini skirt and heels, because I really enjoy both. I love my dirt covered feet as much as I do my winged eyeliner. Maybe one day my sense of frugality will trump my creative expression and vanity, but for now my body remains something I very much enjoy painting and experimenting with, from cacao powder 'bronzer' to black suede bootie heels

On that note though, nobody should ever put on airs for the sake of someone else - I think we'd all be so much happier if the only standards we held ourselves to were our own, instead of trying to conform to what someone else's version of presentable is.

I have a very girly, primadonna sort of friend. She's sweet as pie, but always so put together, and never dirty, and boogers gross her out, etc. But we get each other. She was sitting in my living room the other day, telling me how badly she just wanted a pedicure, all she wanted was a pedicure, and how she had the stuff in her car for one and would I like to do pedicures with her.

So two things:

1. I have a hell-raising toddler. I can't even pee alone, let alone paint my freaking toenails.
2. Erm. My toenails were pretty well caked with dirt at that very moment.

I looked down at my toes, and looked at her and laughed and said 'We are so different, you and I!'

I prefer men rough and natural, and I can understand why many men prefer the same. Some days, that is oh so me, and other days, I'm halfway primped and polished, but on both days, I generally feel pretty fantastic
 
Mel Green
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Make-up as self-expression is beautiful.

But when we take that make-up, and use it to cover up ourselves, because we need to gain someone else's approval, we risk feeling like our true self is "never enough".

When you reach a place within yourself where you no longer need to hide "flaws", it is very liberating. Like men growing a beard instead of being a slave to the shave.
Being make-up free shows an acceptance of your own skin. It shows that you no longer feel like you need others approval to be beautiful.

I love that Alicia Keys has reached a level of power, both personally and in her career, that she no longer feels she needs to justify herself to media or men. The greatest gift we can give ourselves is the gift of feeling "enough" in our own skin.

 
Abbey Battle
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I don't wear make up. Never have done. Just could never be bothered with it. At school it seemed that many girls were preoccupied with it. Most weren't the girls I mixed with so there was no peer pressure.
I don't look at peoples faces and think about their make up choices. I don't judge some one by their face if they are wearing make up or not. I really don't care.

May be all part of being as blind as a bat and not wearing glasses. I never got to check people out by their faces and when I did start wearing glasses I was already set in my ways.

I look at peoples bodies, do they take care of themselves. (Exercise, eat healthily, not over weight).
I don't know if wearing make up or not says anything about anyone. Can you really judge me because I don't wear make up?
 
Judith Browning
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I'm so glad to hear the more open views of makeup, I really feel like it's a mistake to judge someone by their looks......as someone in a post above said there has always been body painting for various reasons, some cultural, some just for fun. I used to enjoy watching more modern fashion on other folks (as an art major and weaver) and felt sorry for mainstream men because the only thing they could go wild with was a tie.....women, in that area anyway, had much more room to express themselves and have fun with clothing, face painting, etc.

I think the toxicity of many body products is a real issue as Jocelyn mentioned, that, and what the underlying reason for wearing makeup in the first place might be....I hope we can teach our young girls and boys to be proud of their bodies with or without makeup and help them to either avoid that advertising and peer pressure all together that makes them feel insecure about their body image, or at least teach them to understand it as the pervasive propaganda that it is.....

 
Dale Hodgins
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William, on what sort of occasion do you wear this makeup? I would really like to see some pictures.

I believe that personal appearance is the most important way that we make judgements about those we meet. I have hired hundreds of people for various types of work. Quite often I was looking for men to do hard physical labor. Their appearance is the first clue as to whether or not they are suited to the task. If they look like they are not in good physical shape , they are less likely to be hired. Quality of clothing doesn't matter much to me, but suitable clothing does. I have had young fellows show up at a demolition site in pants that they were not willing to get dirty.

Many fellows who come looking for work have the look of drug addicts. Of course this is always a judgment call. Someone who doesn't use drugs might be naturally skinny and really tired looking, with bad teeth. But as the person risking money , I would usually not employ someone with that look. This is discrimination, and it works.
.....
Back to makeup. When I used to live in Ontario, the girls were made up much more than they are here on the West Coast. The style here is generally less formal. It's not uncommon to see people at a wedding or coming out of church, wearing everyday street clothing.

We have a convent in Victoria. Some of the best dressed ladies in town are nuns who are in their seventies and eighties. They always dress conservatively, but with enough style that they are not easily identified as nuns.
.....
My friend's mother had eye makeup tattoos permanently affixed to her thinning brows. She looks surprised all the time.
.....
My daughters are very much into the self-expression type of makeup. Royal blue and brilliant red , in quantities that can't be ignored. Often, they wear no makeup at all. They don't really need makeup to make their features stand out , since their mother is East Indian and their dark hair and eyebrows contrast with relatively light skin. One inherited my hazel eyes.
.....
I decided many years ago to not allow makeup to negatively affect me. This means that I will not wait for someone to get ready, if that means going somewhere late. I once left a sister-in-law in the bathroom, doing her makeup, and made it to the event on time. In any home where bathroom space is limited, I think there is other more pressing business that that space needs to be used for. It's really a pain in the morning , if one family member wants to sit in front of the mirror while others are waiting to shower or pee.
.....
A few years ago , I frequented a dating website regularly. There were many women who presented themselves in a very natural way and there were those who looked like a painting of themselves or someone else. In reading the profiles, I was able to gain a brief glimpse into each woman's state-of-mind. Some were looking for equal partnerships.  Some came with a shopping list that would require someone else's money to complete. I stopped looking at that group.
 
Joseph Lofthouse
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Observing vitamin A deficiency is easy... Sit in the lobby of a building with auto opening doors, like a Walmart, on a bright sunny day, and watch the people come into the building... Most people will walk from the bright outside to the dim inside without breaking stride. About 10% to 20% will pause just inside the door, like they can't see where they are going... Their skin is usually off-tone, lacking coloration due to carotenes. The people that I have personally treated for vitamin A deficiency also suffered from stomach ailments like colitis, nausea, or throwing up, which can't really be observed on the street.

Wheat/sugar poisoning is easy as anything to see. If someone is obese, it's almost always due to wheat/sugar poisoning.

The inflammation in people's bodies due to eating too much Omega-6 oils and too little Omega-3 oils jumps out at me.

People with pale skin usually have vitamin D deficiency. It often manifests psychologically as being generally depressed.

Deficiencies in B vitamins often manifest psychologically, or as rashes, or cracks around the lips.

Heels eh? That's another one of those fashion things that I avoid, because I think that heels are harmful to the body, and greatly increase the risk of injury to the wearer. And yes, I freely admit to being highly prejudiced against women wearing heels. So if my first impression of a woman is of her wearing heels, she's extremely unlikely to get the opportunity to make a second impression. Life to short. I don't have time to waste developing relationships with people that I have to teach basic life principles to, such as: "don't poison yourself", and "don't set yourself up to be injured".



 
Joseph Lofthouse
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I suspect that in the near future, it may become common to wear makeup for the purpose of thwarting ubiquitous face recognition spy cameras. It's possible at that time, that I might change my position on makeup....
 
Destiny Hagest
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Joseph Lofthouse wrote:Heels eh? That's another one of those fashion things that I avoid, because I think that heels are harmful to the body, and greatly increase the risk of injury to the wearer. And yes, I freely admit to being highly prejudiced against women wearing heels. So if my first impression of a woman is of her wearing heels, she's extremely unlikely to get the opportunity to make a second impression. Life to short. I don't have time to waste developing relationships with people that I have to teach basic life principles to, such as: "don't poison yourself", and "don't set yourself up to be injured".

That's a judgment I can live with I don't typically care what lifestyle choices people make, so long as it isn't negatively impacting someone else. I have friends that smoke, others that mountain climb, some the drink copious amounts of alcohol on a weekly basis, and so long as they're not doing it with their babies involved or driving drunk, their activities endanger nobody but themselves, so we get along just fine.

But that is completely your prerogative Joseph, and I'm not even remotely offended - I'm a firm believer in being able to make judgments and choose your company without being ostracized yourself. I've been injured working in the yard, but never trotting around in a pair of heels, on the very rare occasion that I have an excuse to wear them. Me and my absurdly tall self will be totally fine, so long as I don't enter any marathons with my favorite wedges on
 
K Putnam
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Taking a second to look at how women get hooked on makeup, I think acne in puberty is a big catalyst. I actually had pretty decent skin (but horrendously oily hair), but I still ended up hooked on the skin program from a major department store brand. Step 1: Wash with this soap. Step 2: Exfoliate. Step 3: Tone. Step 4: Moisturize. And boy did it keep my skin clear. I'm pretty sure I was giving myself a chemical peel every day. And every time I would try to get off of it, my skin would break out horribly, so I must need the stuff, right? So, I tried to switch to a "plant-based" brand, hahahaha. And my skin broke out TERRIBLY. And then the sales rep tried to give me some spiel about that being "toxins leaving my skin." So, I went through a period of probably six months where my skin was absolutely hideous. And wearing makeup to smooth that out isn't a big leap of logic. Imagine girls who actually have serious skin issues in puberty! Eventually, I switched to more natural face creams, and now I just use a dab of plain natural oils, depending on the season.

My diet definitely could have been better as a young woman. We lived in an area that, to this day, doesn't have access to healthy produce most of the year. There are now some farmers markets in the summer, but eight months of the year, the produce is being shipped in and it is the worst produce available. Good meat? This was the 1980s. Good luck. Also, I had a mother who was an early adopter of soy-milk and forced us to drink that instead of cow's milk...I am sure the estrogen did not help. I think access to high-quality dairy would have been a good thing for my family. So, certainly, excellent nutrition would probably help young women, if they are mature enough to accept the help of their parents. At that age, even if I had had access to high-quality food, who's saying I would have had the maturity to eat it? Not me!

The whole question of beauty is vexing. We are not to judge a person on their appearance? But every woman is beautiful? My person expresses my values, as in Paul's overalls, or someones else's designer purse, so it doesn't seem right to ignore what people might be trying to tell us.
Most of us seem to want the appreciation of our visual appearance by others, but only if we approve of the source and the manner in which the complement is delivered.
The right person,checking you out in the right way.


There is a lot of truth here. I think the healthiest approach is asking yourself whether you are taking steps to look a certain way for yourself or for others. For example, it is extremely easy to fall into the trap of picking out clothes, putting on makeup, and doing one's hair a certain way in an effort to please a particular person. But what if that particular person isn't interested? Then who was the effort for, really? It could easily go the other way, not wearing makeup, not doing one's hair, to try to please someone who wants someone to dress simply. But what if that particular person isn't interested? It was never really about the individual's wants and needs. This may apply to women more than men, but I imagine in applies to some men.

I had a friend in college who told me that I looked better without makeup. It wasn't a compliment. It was criticism. It was not helpful. If he had wanted to give a compliment, at some point, he could have just said "you look nice today."

If Paul wants to wear overalls for reasons X, Y, and Z, he should do that because it makes him happy. If I want to occasionally trade building my little permaculture paradise for Kate Spade and some light makeup to raise money for a charity that is important to my heart, I should do that because it brings me joy. If I am doing anything to attempt to meet someone else's vision of myself instead of my own, I should examine those reasons because, in the end, they result in bad math.

I am a massage practitioner, so I see men and women once all of the clothing has been stripped away. It's a huge mistake to judge people based on their trappings. Women *tend* to be caretakers and let some things go in order to take care of other people and then they start to feel bad about themselves because they are also not meeting a standard of beauty. That is awful. Men *tend* to brush off pain and discomfort for deep cultural reasons and because they are often working hard as providers. That is also awful. Invariably, there is more going on under the surface than meets the eye.

Be an example. It goes a lot further than judgment.



 
Jotham Bessey
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This is a topic that gets me thinking how the "health" industry makes money off keeping people ignorant.

I consider a healthy body to be a beautiful body, healthy skin is beautiful skin.
Makeup, in the most popular sense, I judge as one sees flaws in his/her looks and is trying to cover up those flaws and create an "ideal face"
couple that with high heals and a mini skirt.....I am really turned off!

Healthy body and healthy skin.... The makeup industry want you to cover up your skin, the diet industry wants you to buy miracle products.
But if you really have flaws, consider natural ways to reduce them.
Acne, for instance, results from dirt clogging you pores. many people consider it a disease, but it is a cleanliness issue.
Fine particle dirt is pushed into your pores when something brushes across your skin (like the back of your hand). And people may get upset at that statement saying "I wash my face three times a day!"
I have naturally oily skin, very oily skin. In my early teens, I found that I had to wash my face at least six times a day or I got pimples. Thing is, with oily skin, every bit of dust floating by sticks right on.
However, there are people who can wash their face only once a week and never get pimples. Those people usually have dry, flaky skin problems and would benefit from applying oil to their skin.
I have seen foundation makeup used to cover up both issues, and I believe it is because those people just don't know how to care for their own skin. Not that they are stupid, it's just that, not only were they not taught proper hygiene, the makeup industry as taught that the only thing that can be done is cover it up!

Dandruff.... I had a layer of caked on dandruff as a child. Youngest of nine, one got a bath and washed my hair once a week. As my siblings moved out and I could bath more often I found that if I washed my hair at least every second day, no dandruff! Then you hear of women with dry frizzy hair and others with oily, slimy hair. There was a time when it was popular for women to oil their hair. I suspect that some woman of great influence had dry frizzy hair and solved the problem with oil. Then it became a fad and all the women had to "oil their hair!"

There is a quote I came across one time, "Teenager: a person who tries to express his own personality by being like everyone else!"

Thing is, we are bombarded with the "should" word from peer pressure and media. We are brainwashed to believe there is a universal "right" way off taking care of and dressing ourselves. That there is a universal look for beauty. That brainwashing goes to the point that we believe that "right" way IS us and if we follow that path it is our own "self expression".

We shouldn't totally blame media and peers though, it is because of low self esteem / desire to follow the crowd / gain satisfaction from being "excepted" that makes this brainwashing sooooo easy.
 
William Bronson
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Joseph Lofthouse wrote:

Observing vitamin A deficiency is easy... Sit in the lobby of a building with auto opening doors, like a Walmart, on a bright sunny day, and watch the people come into the building... Most people will walk from the bright outside to the dim inside without breaking stride. About 10% to 20% will pause just inside the door, like they can't see where they are going... Their skin is usually off-tone, lacking coloration due to carotenes. The people that I have personally treated for vitamin A deficiency also suffered from stomach ailments like colitis, nausea, or throwing up, which can't really be observed on the street.

Wheat/sugar poisoning is easy as anything to see. If someone is obese, it's almost always due to wheat/sugar poisoning.

The inflammation in people's bodies due to eating too much Omega-6 oils and too little Omega-3 oils jumps out at me.

People with pale skin usually have vitamin D deficiency. It often manifests psychologically as being generally depressed.

Deficiencies in B vitamins often manifest psychologically, or as rashes, or cracks around the lips.

Heels eh? That's another one of those fashion things that I avoid, because I think that heels are harmful to the body, and greatly increase the risk of injury to the wearer. And yes, I freely admit to being highly prejudiced against women wearing heels. So if my first impression of a woman is of her wearing heels, she's extremely unlikely to get the opportunity to make a second impression. Life to short. I don't have time to waste developing relationships with people that I have to teach basic life principles to, such as: "don't poison yourself", and "don't set yourself up to be injured".
[/quote


Most of these things seem like huge conclusions to jump to.
But you have experience I do not.

The funny things about heels,the heels on cowboy boots totally fuck with my feet, ankles, knees and back. when I was younger, I would shrug off these effects in the service of self expression.
Now a days , these boots stay in the closet.

Dale, I will have to see if I can dig up any photos to share! I don't get out much anymore, much less to the wild events I once attended. I also can't fit my little black dress anymore, but that is another story.

I have dear friend who is a masseuse. She is a crunchy granola hippy type,organic , vegan, etc. She constantly has dark circles under her eyes, which she hides with makeup. They just really bother her.
My wife and I think they have gotten better-since she started to eat meat again.
She is very gentle and non-judgmental, which no doubt figures into her work.

 
K Putnam
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The funny things about heels,the heels on cowboy boots totally fuck with my feet, ankles, knees and back.


Brief segway into the historical function of heels.

Heels on cowboy boot or any sort of paddock boot or riding boot are to prevent, in the event of a naughty horse or accident, the foot from sliding through the stirrup and the rider being dragged along the ground. They are there to prevent you from getting killed. So cowboys or members of the calvary were wearing them on a horse, not just walking around. Sure, they had to do some walking and chores in them as well, but the purpose was safety in the saddle where they were spending a lot of the day. To this day, various riding boots have a thin sole so you can feel the placement of the stirrup and a heel for safety.
 
G Stone
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I'm a man, so I don't feel like I have any right to judge a woman's choice of what to do with her body. I certainly wouldn't let it be a determining factor in who I choose to hang out with.

That said, I know that there are plenty of cosmetic products on the market that are perfectly safe and ethically produced, and I would hope that women who choose to adorn themselves would do so in a safe and responsible way.
 
Jennifer Meyer
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William Bronson wrote:
Joseph Lofthouse wrote:
Heels eh? That's another one of those fashion things that I avoid, because I think that heels are harmful to the body, and greatly increase the risk of injury to the wearer. And yes, I freely admit to being highly prejudiced against women wearing heels. So if my first impression of a woman is of her wearing heels, she's extremely unlikely to get the opportunity to make a second impression. Life to short. I don't have time to waste developing relationships with people that I have to teach basic life principles to, such as: "don't poison yourself", and "don't set yourself up to be injured".
[/quote


Most of these things seem like huge conclusions to jump to.
But you have experience I do not.

The funny things about heels,the heels on cowboy boots totally fuck with my feet, ankles, knees and back. when I was younger, I would shrug off these effects in the service of self expression.
Now a days , these boots stay in the closet.



I love your comments, William.

Since I developed celiac disease, I've discovered my body is much healthier without processed foods. Period. My skin cleared up, my weight dropped, I stopped looking and feeling constantly headachey and fatigued.

I put myself through college by dancing in nightclubs--you know the type. I have a profound respect for footwear. Dancing for 12-14 hours a day really makes an impact (no pun intended) on your feet. Your cowboy boots, incidentally, hurt your feet not just because of the 1-inch heel, but because of the thin soles, which transmit the shock of each step to the delicate ball of your foot and thence, to the arch. The heel exacerbates the effect by placing the weight of the foot onto the ball. Cowboy boots are mean for RIDING, not for walking. The heel is meant to keep the foot from slipping through the stirrup, creating a dangerous situation in the event the horse startles.

Regarding women's heels, a super-thin sole that flexes is the worst kind of thing you can do to your feet--with the possible exception of pointy toes, which cause bunions. (A bunion is the deformation of toe joints due to being held in an unnatural position.)

Heels do have benefits. They force women to adopt proper posture rather than slumping their shoulders forward and humping their spinal column. They put very petite (me) women at eye-level with men. They can change a shy, receding girl into a confident, outgoing women in a moment. However, as with other changes to one's body, they have to be chosen carefully, considering the stiffness of the tang, the with of the shoe box, the thickness of the sole, and the amount of arch support the shoe offers. I find that an open-toed shoe with a one-inch platform and five-inch heels offers excellent arch support, a wide toe box, and the additional height to make me feel confident in my place in the world.
 
Kali Maya
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When I was growing up, I was raised Mormon, and was told my purpose in life was to serve men and be beautiful for them. Very difficult for a kid raised on a bad diet with chronic acne by age 12. I left the Mormon Church as a young teen, but that brainwashing stuck with me. After I married, I did not allow myself to be seen without makeup on, making sure it was applied before my mate awoke, just as my mother had.
Later in life with the use of aloe Vera and neem oil I irradiated my acne scars, and rarely wore foundation. After getting on the raw Paleo diet, I literally became ageless, people thought my daughter and I were the same age! All I wear now is homemade lipstick.
As far as hair dye goes, that was a different story. I started to grey at 15,.and by 35 was mostly grey. After getting cancer, I quit using all toxic chemicals, and opted for natural alternatives. At first I used the boxed stuff at the health food store, until the price soared to $20 a box, and I then tried other alternatives, such as henna. My hair is pretty difficult to work with though, and I recently gave up on it completely. It was a big step for me.
I think having fun with things like natural lipstick and eye makeup, etc. to enhance and play with our natural beauty can be a good thing, as long as we don't depend upon it for our self esteem. Tribal people have used such enhancements for thousands of years, and in a way we seek to mimic our animal cousins in nature, exploring our own wild side.
As soon as we stop wearing foundation, our skin can breathe, and it's vitality returns. At first though a person looks worse, and it takes awhile to heal our skin of all those toxins and oxygen deprivation. It is seriously worth it though, and who wants a mate that is going to judge you for who you are skin deep? My mom used to say beauty may be skin deep, but ugly is all the way to the bone. Lol. It is kind of funny, but true as far as the last part goes. If you are a happy and content person inside, it is going to show, but if you are spiteful and angry, no amount of makeup is going to fix that... people are going to see you for what you are.
I think beauty is found in good health, being loved, and loving yourself...not in a bottle that attempts to cover up what we have been through.
 
Inge Leonora-den Ouden
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Jocelyn Campbell wrote: ... When your face starts to wrinkle, even the best makeup often ends up accentuating those fine lines. So I think at older ages, ironically, you can look younger without it!

... Other thoughts or struggles with makeup?


Always has been as natural as possible. Sometimes for a party did a little 'kohl' around my eyes, some eyeshadow (in golden tones) and a little lipstick (which vanished at the first sip of drink). All I put on my face was day and night cream. But even that I stopped about two years ago. Now I only use coconut oil (also as toothpaste). I don't use soap at all, only water for my face since I was 18 (that's a long time ago!).
Several times people said my skin looks so good. then I tell them it's because of the healthy food and not using soap and make-up.
Here's my photo, so you can see for yourself (my age is 60 now):
 
Inge Leonora-den Ouden
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Iread some more comments now, saw other subjects come around to react on.
So I only use water to wash (my face, my body, my hands, my hair). But I do that often, wash my hands several times a day (before and after touching food products, after working in the garden, etc.), my face when it feels a little greasy, my body in the morning and the evening (showering about 2 minutes).
About fashion clothes and high heeled shoes: most of the time I wear flat soles, or even bare feet. Only when I have an occasion where I have to look 'neat' I wear shoes with a small heel (less than an inch). For my clothes I prefer natural fibers and a 'timeless' look.
That is 'who I am' since my youth. Following the mass was never interesting to me.
 
Permaculture isn't that hard to understand. Sometimes a little bump helps: richsoil.com/cards
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