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Gout and blood type - might there be a relationship? And the gallstone connection.  RSS feed

 
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I never read the "blood type diet" book.  Although at some point I was informed that due to my blood type, I should eat a vegan diet.   I know that I do quite well on a vegan diet - I've probably gone as long as a month as a vegan.  I don't know why, but I now feel the urge to point out that I wasn't trying to be a vegan - it just ended up that way. 

About four years ago I got a weird pain in my foot that wasn't caused by anything.   It just hurt - as if a golf ball lived in the middle of my foot.   The swelling made it so that I could not get my toes to touch the ground.   I used the age old techniques of whining and limping and eventually it went away. 

About the fourth time it came back, some time with doctor google suggested it might be gout.  So I ate cherries and reduced sugars and it went away.  (NOTE!  I now think that the solution had everything to do with the cherries, and nothing to do with the sugars.  After all, fresh cherries contain natural sugars)

The next four times this "probably gout" came by, I was able to get it to go away in less than a day.   Cherries!


Pain scale: zero to ten

Two years ago, I had never, in my adult life, been to a hospital.   About a year and a half ago I had a bit of junk touching my spinal cord (cervical radiculopathy).   And about three months ago, I learned way too much about gallstones.   And a few weeks ago, I had the worst gout attack ever. 

So, three things.   Three trips to the hospital. 

At the hospital, I am presented with this and asked to convey a number.



Fortunately, for me, allie brosh, a fellow missoulian, who was probably presented the exact same scale, in the exact same hospital, maybe by the exact same person, bravely explained this scale and modified it a bit to be a bit more helpful:



I have now been asked this so many times, and I have done so much self-evaluation to try to solve things for myself, I have figured out a few things ...

level 1:   the pain level is annoying, but I can get my work done and I can sleep.

level 3:  I cannot do work that requires concentration, and I cannot get proper sleep.

level 6.0:  periodically making involuntary groaning sounds


Spinal cord thing:  If I would lay on my back with my right arm straight out, the pain level would drop to a 3-4.   Everything else would take it up to a 6-7.5.  

Gallstone 1:   8.5 - I thought there was an 80% chance that I was going to die

Gallstone 2:  8

Gallstone 3:  9

Earlier gout:  1 to 5.5 (no moaning, but it was impacting my work and sleep)

Most recent two week long gout episode:  1 to 6.5


I was thinking I was quite the whiner.  Probably spoiled by a lack of serious illnesses, broken bones, etc.  So I looked up women that had gone through the gallstone thing and childbirth.  It seemed unanimous that gallstone pain is much worse than childbirth.   I even found one woman saying that she would rather give birth a thousand times than have one more gallstone event.  I'm really glad I found that - I feel like less of a whiner now.  


how a gallstone attack led to my worst ever gout attack

For the first stone, I went to the hospital.   Once the stone was passed, I did a lot of reading and cut way back on a lot of things.  And five days later had a second gallstone.  So then I cut back even further.   I did a lot more reading and saw more doctors ...  After six weeks I thought I could then ease up a bit and .... I was wrong, so I had a third gallstone attack. 

There is a mountain of conflicting information on what you should eat to avoid a gallstone attack.   And the doctors I saw had conflicting information.  Conventional stuff says "low fat".  The doctor I like said that low carb is more important.   And then there is a breakdown on what sorts of fats are okay.  Grains and sugar are out, but some fruit is good. 

In the end, it was pretty easy to just eat less of damn near everything - just to be sure.   I mean, this is some pretty powerful pain.   It's a bit like there is a loaded gun pointed at you for every meal and the more you eat, the more pressure is put on the trigger.  Once you've been shot three times, you find it easy to say "no thank you" to fresh, new bullet pain. 

About five days after the last stone my foot started to hurt.  I ate cherries and my sugar consumption was already at zero.   The cherries didn't work this time. 

My doctor said that I wasn't eating enough.   Since I was dodging food, I was losing weight.  And that was putting stuff into my blood that was causing the gout.  Uric acid and other stuff. 

My pain level went up and down over and over ....   there were days when it was excruciating and I resorted to industrial strength pain killers to be able to get some sleep.   And then there were days where I could limp around and get some work done in the office (even though my foot was huge).   Jocelyn suggested going to the hospital several times, but I said "what are they going to do besides tell me to eat cherries?"  A lot of online stuff said that if you have had gout for four days, you should go to the hospital.  After two weeks and a really rough night, I was in the middle of a rough morning and jocelyn was suggesting a trip to the hospital again.   I said that I don't have the brain power to make a decision, so I am leaving it to her.  So we went. 



at the hospital for gout

One thing they did that helped was to inject me with some sort of goo that would reduce the inflammation.   That did seem to help a lot.   And they gave me a prescription for industrial strength prescription pain killers for when I need it (it turns out I have not touched those - but I will get to that later).   They also x-rayed my foot and tested to make sure there wasn't some sort of blood clot thing.  And they told me to eat cherries. 

So, the moral of the story is that they did do more at the hospital than tell me to eat cherries. 



figuring it out

For over nine years Jocelyn and I have talked at great length about how food ties to our health.   One of the things that brought us together is that we both avoid a lot of the same foods. 

Throughout the gallstone and gout stuff, conversations about foods and the connection to these ailments intensified.  Jocelyn worked exceptionally hard at preparing foods that would, hopefully, solve these problems. 

On the way to the hospital and while at the hospital, Jocelyn and I went over and over the different things I had been eating and what could we possibly try next. 

I really like the doctor that I see now.   I saw her once about 25 years ago, then moved away from missoula.   And then when I came back to missoula, I emailed her and she said she wasn't practicing anymore.   After the gallstone event, the planets aligned and weird things happened and ... she is helping me.   She created a multi page document, just for me.   It explained what I was going to eat and why.   Her document lined up really well with a book on the subject that I like.   And there was one big difference:   in her document, she said that because of my blood type, she didn't want me to eat any beef.   Beef would be inflammatory for me, and right now I needed to keep inflammation to a minimum.

Because of my blood type. 

She did not say that because of my blood type I should eat a vegan diet. 

I have grown rather addicted to eating jocelyn's cooking.   She loves to cook and it's damn good eatin!  And it is well aligned with our food values.   Of course, our food values come from organizations that seem to suggest that everybody should eat the same way.  And there have been quite a few things I have learned about myself and what makes it so I get the most work done (zero dairy, low sugar, high fat).  At the same time, I have always advocated that different people thrive on different things.   Some people thrive on being vegan and some people really suffer being vegan.  I do fine on a vegan diet.   I know that jocelyn does poorly on a vegan diet. 

It seems a big part of gout comes from purines, which is found mostly in meat.  And the cure for gout comes from Anthocyanin which comes mostly from fruit. 

So while we are sitting around in the hospital while waiting for tests and stuff, I present to Jocelyn the idea of eating vegan to see if that helps.  She is worried about not getting enough protein - which is where she struggles.  But I don't seem to have cravings for protein like she does, so I propose that my dietary needs are different from hers.  Next, she is worried that if I up my fruit intake that that would be too much sugar.   I counter that not all sugars are the same.   Further, this would be an experiment to see how things go.

Because of the gallstone stuff, I am already avoiding the vegan foods: grains, sugar, onions, potatoes, legumes, certain oils and nuts.  Although I seem to do okay with small amounts of white rice, oats or corn.   Based on all of my reading, I think that white rice is "less bad" than oats or corn, and the rest of the grains, especially wheat, are to be completely avoided.

Due to the high purine count in mushrooms and yeasts, those were taken off my food list too. 

So we left the hospital and bought some stuff to fit this very limited diet.  The gout went away instantly and has not returned.   It has been 16 days.   No gallstone stuff since then either - but that's something that is measured in years rather than days.

 

what i have been eating for the last two weeks

I think this should be taken with a grain of salt.  This is just me.   And what works for me might not work for others.  And there might be a bunch of stuff here that is really messed up and I will come up with something better later.  Or it is messed up and I won't figure out something better.  

cherries, apples, pineapple, grapes, blueberries, tomatoes, dried fruits, bananas, lemons, limes, grapefruit
avacado, greens (except spinach), carrots, radishes (especially daikon), peppers, celery, squash, sweet potatoes
coffee with stevia and "nutpods"
kim chi
coconut oil
mayo made from avacado oil
fermented pickles
water
chips made from veggies
cheese-like stuff made from almond milk
fruit preserves sweetened with fruit juice
I like to get stuff to be more raw/fresh and less cooked.

Sometimes in small amounts:

white rice
corn
macadamia nuts


Zero:

potatoes, onions, asparagus, cole crops, spinach
wheat,
beans, peas, lentils, soy
dairy
meat or fish
eggs
mushrooms
nuts (except a few macadamia nuts)


what I was eating during the two weeks of horrific gout

I was trying to keep from triggering a gallstone and get the gout to go away.  Because of the gout restrictions, I already ate zero pork and zero beef. 

What I am eating now (without gout) is remarkably similar to what I was eating during the two weeks of brutal gout paing.   But here is the complete list of stuff that I cut out:

poultry
fish
eggs
mushrooms
nutritional yeast
spinach
cole crops


Jocelyn might chime in to clarify some stuff. 


the cheegan diet

I just made this up.   Mostly because I like making stuff up like this.  Fun people think this is fun.   Which is fun to please the fun people.   Icky people get angry that I make up stuff like this.  Which, somehow feeds my humor need to see icky people get pissed off over something so stupid.   NEENER NEENER ICKY PEOPLE!

This diet is really a subset of the vegan diet.   But it always bothered me that some people thought of themselves as "vegan" but their diet was mostly diet coke and oreos.    I am not making this shit up.  

So "the cheegan diet" contains zero aspartame and zero products made by nabisco (which includes oreos).  Everything in the cheegan diet is organic or better. 

I wanted to invent a word that means "a subset of the vegan diet" and came up with "cherries + vegan = cheegan."   And since I am making it up, I get to spell it however I want.

The stuff in the cheegan diet is all the stuff I listed above that I am eating now.  All in an effort to dodge gallstone stuff and gout stuff. 

I don't think I will stay on the cheegan diet forever.  But I am worried enough about absurd pain that i am willing to stay on it a long time.   I suspect that a few months from now, I will be doing the cheegan diet 95% of the time instead of 100%.

Right now, a piece of huckleberry pie looks like extreme pain.  But jocelyn made a sort of apple pie a few days ago that was made entirely out of stuff of on the safe list.   So I think that some day I might be able to have a piece of huckleberry pie that is made "the right way". 



doodle-ly-doo doodle-ly-doo

After such a roller coaster of pain, I was just relieved to get away from the pain.   And my first thought was to do all my other stuff for a while and spend less time trying to figure out all the best stuff to eat, not eat, whatever.  This morning I just had the urge to write down what i could think of.   For reasons.    I want to make it clear, I have not discovered anything here, not even just for me.   I am saying that I got out of a tight spot, and this is probably the beginning of something much more significant.   But this is just the beginning for me, and I am hoping it will draw in the expertise of others that are far wiser than i am on this stuff. 


Here are a few things about supplements that i am sharing because I am a bit on the fence.  


One, is that a lot of sources desperately want both gout and gallstone folks to consume two tablespoons of organic raw apple cider vinegar three times a day, just before eating.   That was fine for a few days, but it got old.   And it got disgusting.   And downright unacceptable.   And then I switched to this stuff:



http://amzn.to/2hYZEg4

A hundred times easier.  Although I'm not sure how long I want to stick to it.   It is suggested that if I stick to it for a couple of years, the gallstones I'm still packing will dissolve.



Next up, when struggling with gout and the cherries weren't working, I found a lot of gout sufferers got immediate relief from this stuff:



http://amzn.to/2iJBraO

The top ingredients are cherry extract and celery seed extract.   It did nothing for me.  Or, maybe I would have been in even more pain if I wasn't taking it.   I can't tell.


Two super short videos.   The first one played a huge role in me moving toward trying the cheegan diet.  Especially the part where he mentions cooked foods:




In this one he talks about people fasting.  And while I wasn't fasting, I wasn't eating much.   But the big thing is where he mentions "potassium citrate"



http://amzn.to/2zhoafI

I got it and ....   once again, I was still in insane pain.   Maybe my pain would have been worse without it, I can't tell.   But it does seem like a lot of folks are heading in this general direction.



the big question

If you know your blood type, I would like to hear what sort of stuff you eat and if you have had gout and or gallstones.  My blood type is A+.   And I wonder if there is a connection between my blood type, and eating a non-vegan diet and getting the gallstones and gout.   But more importantly, what is YOUR story.   Even if you have never had gout or gallstones, but you know your blood type, I would like to hear about it.











Staff note (Jocelyn Campbell):

Note that we have a separate gallbladder / gallstone thread here: https://permies.com/t/15091/kitchen/Gallstones.

 
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My blood type is AB negative...quite popular at the blood mobile.

I've never had gout but three years ago had two gall bladder attacks in three days, that led to pancreatitis and a week in the hospital on IV's waiting on a level of 'something' (I can't remember what, an enzyme I think) to go down before doing surgery to remove my gall bladder. I have never had that kind of pain, and yes I would say a 8-9 approaching 10 at times.  Steve had no hesitation to drive me to the emergency room both times...the second time my condition showed up in the blood work and they sent me to the next town in the most uncomfortable ambulance on a really curvy road....

I don't ever remember having any indicators that there was something wrong, never an attack before.  I had always been able to eat as I like, not a lot of meat, lots of vegetables and probably too heavy on the carbohydrates even though whole and organic.  I had quit drinking alcohol thirty years in the past and never was a greasy food eater, etc.

I found it easy to live without my gall bladder...just balance fat with fiber and I've never had a problem.

The day of the 'attack' I had eaten dry rye crisps and some aged chedder cheese and had forgotten my water bottle so had not had enough liquids...I think all of that played a part, especially the lack of fluids.

I looked up my diet for blood type once and remember thinking it was close to what I eat now.  I'll have to check it out again.

I hate to think of you in that kind of pain...it's amazing how something that small can cause such excruciating pain.




 
paul wheaton
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Most gallstones are, apparently, made of cholesterol and take about ten years to make one stone.   Since I have had three gallstone attacks, I suspect that I have a gallbladder packed to the gills with stones.  

I wonder if I was eating something closer to cheegan for the last ten years, maybe i would never have created gallstones. 

 
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paul wheaton wrote:
If you know your blood type, I would like to hear what sort of stuff you eat and if you have had gout and or gallstones.  My blood type is A+.   And I wonder if there is a connection between my blood type, and eating a non-vegan diet and getting the gallstones and gout.   But more importantly, what is YOUR story.   Even if you have never had gout or gallstones, but you know your blood type, I would like to hear about it.



So, I'm A+, mid-50s (first attack of gout in late 30s), dabble in vegan (which I guess is not really vegan), and am now controlling my gout with prescription allopurinol.  Before going on allopurinol, I also tried the heavy doses of tart cherry juice and fresh stock, as well as limiting purines in the diet.  It was too iffy with regard to efficacy and the bouts were too painful to want to mess around with it....plus, if I'm not mistaken, each bout is a sign of hyperuricemic condition which I suspect is just going to predispose one to increasing joint problems (which I have) and gallstones---which I've never had, fortunately.  When I went on the allopurinol, it was a more "fit" time in my life....carrying around less weight and greater overall fitness....but was eating more of a 'standard' US diet; not very good, but one that had more garden produce included than most.  So that would have to be factored into why, perhaps, the non-pharma solutions were fighting an uphill battle.

Now on allopurinol (300 mg/daily level) for several decades, no bouts at all.  Weight is too high, activity level about what you would expect for daily activities in a farmyard (no 'deliberate' exercising), but diet is now much reduced in dairy (substituted by nutmilk), meat (substituted be legumes and seitan [gluten]), alcohol (~5 beers per year?) and sugar, although it's still there in some of the baked goods prepared.  So trying to skew the diet more towards fresh and cooked vegetables and fruits and leguminous protein sources where possible.  Also on blood pressure medication.....and it's anecdotal from a friend that that medication itself may be a compounding factor in higher levels of hyperuricemia, but the gout came before the high blood pressure, so I'm not so sure.

Gout's a weird one....and I've pondered at times what the selective advantage might have been to have this mutation(s), .... if there is one at all.  Genetic loci that predispose one to gout can be found world-wide, yet I'm not sure to what extent 'standard' versus non-standard diet has been examined as a risk factor in the development of gout.  For example, lots of examples of gout occurring in Pacific populations, but are these individuals eating a more Westernized ('standard') diet versus the one that would have been more traditional for them?  For the northern European, gout was associated with the wealthy.....with rich foods, wine, red meat etc.  Does this suggest that, although the lower classes had access to alcohol and meat and dairy, that their probably higher fiber diet and activity level may have contributed to lower blood uric acid levels?   So the long road taken to the question "Under what dietary condition might genetically-predisposed hyperuricemia, not be "hyper".....might actually condition a selective advantage?..", much like sickle-cell anemia and the situation with malaria?

The closest I come to imagining the conditions in which that genetic make-up evolved is 'paleo'.....and not the fad, but whatever can be gleaned from our understanding of those ancestral, day-to-day diets and those used by the remaining aboriginal/indigenous populations still living in a hunter/foraging/reduced agricultural situation.  And I'm not testing that, cuz I'm content with the fix from pharma at this point....and it's an old fix at that.  (My doc has offered to try some of the new, more expensive meds for gout....but why fix what's cheap [off patent] and not broken?)  Yeah, it may be affecting other aspects of purine metabolism in my body in ways that I'm unaware, but it's not only a risk I will take given the bouts of the past, it additionally has not caused any unusual maladies to arise in other family members who lived well into their 80s.  All of this said, I can't help but suspect that the various genetic risk factors are possibly pointing to ancestral conditions from which we've deviated and that are antagonizing the purine pathway, thereby causing the increasing incidence of gout that has been recorded over the past century.
 
paul wheaton
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What caused my first gallstone attack: 

Jocelyn was in the seattle area and I was in missoula.  So I was on my own for food.   It turns out that my laziness to get food was bigger than my appetite.  And I could stand to miss a few meals.  No biggie.  So I ate stuff, just not a lot.    After a few days of this, I went out with somebody to a restaurant and got a big burger. 

Apparently, one of the triggers for a gallstone attack is several days of fasting followed by a big meal featuring one of the fats that requires bile to properly digest.   Bile is the stuff stored in the gallbladder.   So at 2am, my gallbladder was trying to pump out a lot of bile and a stone came out. 


What caused my second gallstone attack: 

So now I'm pretty freaked out and I don't want to ever have another gallstone attack.   Jocelyn is back.  I'm not eating much because I'm afraid of another attack.    We have a "feast night" with spaghetti.   I skip the actual pasta and instead have spaghetti squash.   With beef in the spaghetti sauce.   I made it so that my plate has about half of what I would normally eat on feast night. 

Later my doctor explained that after the first gallstone attack, my "gallstone attack trigger" was especially sensitive.  So, it was the fat in the hamburger that got me.


What caused my third gallstone attack: 

It had been six weeks since my last gallstone attack.   So, in theory, my trigger was not as sensitive.  Jocelyn and I were in missoula and went out to breakfast.   I selected the smallest meal - a breakfast sandwich.

In hindsight, I probably should have skipped the meal.   There was really nothing I could have.  Everything was off limits.  Or maybe I could have limited myself to eating half of the sandwich. 

The sandwich had:

bread - I am not supposed to eat wheat
sausage - I am not supposed to eat pork
cheese - I am not supposed to eat dairy
egg - I am not supposed to eat egg

There was nothing in that sandwich that was okay.

Looking at their menu ....  on the cheegan diet, I could get a bowl of fresh fruit and an avacado.








 
paul wheaton
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John Weiland wrote:So, I'm A+, mid-50s (first attack of gout in late 30s), dabble in vegan (which I guess is not really vegan), and am now controlling my gout with prescription allopurinol. 



Indicative that my suspicions might be right.  Maybe you and I need to eat cheegan and that keeps the gout away. 


Before going on allopurinol, I also tried the heavy doses of tart cherry juice and fresh stock, as well as limiting purines in the diet.  It was too iffy with regard to efficacy and the bouts were too painful to want to mess around with it.



I'm glad to get a bit of validation that this is some pretty serious pain.


....plus, if I'm not mistaken, each bout is a sign of hyperuricemic condition which I suspect is just going to predispose one to increasing joint problems (which I have) and gallstones---which I've never had, fortunately.

 

So there is a stronger connection between gout and gallstones than me just guessing?

 
paul wheaton
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Judith Browning wrote:My blood type is AB negative...

I looked up my diet for blood type once and remember thinking it was close to what I eat now.  I'll have to check it out again.

I hate to think of you in that kind of pain...it's amazing how something that small can cause such excruciating pain.




It would be interesting to see what it says.  I tried to look it up and it just seemed to say that AB was really rare and a hybrid of A and B.  ??

 
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Great discussion, as I have had the "sludge" in the gallbladder.
I too, have never been to the hospital before this happened some months ago, and I was a regular drinker and ate mostly what I wanted.

Unfortunately I do not know my blood type.  I need to look into this connection with the diet.
I did not have the acute pain, but the constant dull pain with extreme fatigue in the beginning.
I did have a couple days of sharp pain in the lower abdomen, perhaps I was passing a stone, and still have occasional pains throughout the abdomen area, especially when I go off my "healthy" diet.


I have researched this quite a bit since I had the pain issues, and a lot of helpful advice and information from a Gallbladder flush group on Facebook.
Since then I have focused on getting the Gut right, and doing parasite and kidney/liver/colon cleansing, since supposedly all of this is connected, and recommended by many that are suffering from these issues.
I think the biggest change was incorporating the Apple Cider Vinegar often with lemon juice and honey first thing in the morning.
I'm not sure what exactly has helped me, but I'm able to function without the lethargy, and most of the daily nagging pain is gone, unless I go off of my "diet".

I'm still trying to figure out which foods affect me and which do not as well.

ON a positive note, I've lost weight, feel better, and haven't been sick, which was a regular occurrence with me.
 
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I've never had to gout. Mostly hear about men that have it. But I've had a huge more than an inch gallstone for many years. It never bothered me until this year, supposedly. I had vomiting and diarrhea and they were ruling things out and did a scan and decided it was the gallstone blocking a duct.  I'm not sure if that was it or not. Of course they want to yank your gallbladder out right away. I wasn't having it. I also had two ear infections and decided to go ahead with the anabiotic's for that. So after that all my symptoms got better and I went back to having occasional heartburn. Don't really feel like eating like I was eating last year though.

I listened to doctors online and did the research on the gallbladder. The best information I found was at gallbladderattackcom.  Learned the amount of food you eat in one setting has a lot to do with problems. Also learned that it's not the fat it's the carbs. I basically eat whatever I want. A few months ago a cheeseburger would make me run to the bathroom. But not anymore. 

My blood type is A+ but I don't believe in going by that.  I do think everybody's body uses food differently and that no one diet is good for everyone. See  http://www.mensahmedical.com/what-are-biochemical-imbalances/ They've even changed their mind that kale is good for every cancer patient.

Next month I'm having blood work to show how my body works with methylation, etc. The book, "Nutrient Power" by William Walsh explains about how they use testing to formulate a nutritional supplement that is uniquely for you regardless of your blood type.

I'm going to talk to a G.I. specialist in a few weeks. They can snatch stones that are caught in ducts with something that reminds me of those cranes in the toy boxes.  Mine is still in the gallbladder but I thought I'd ask about it anyway. I've heard they can laser them (or use ultrasound but I think that's old-fashioned now). You'd think that if my duct were blocked I wouldn't be functioning as well as I am. I'm taking NOW brand super enzymes with ox bile and Hcl but I don't think that's the only thing my body is using. https://www.swansonvitamins.com/now-foods-super-enzymes-180-caps?otherSize=NWF099&DFA=1&UTM_Medium=Shopping&UTM_Source=GOOGLE&UTM_Campaign=SWAN_National_Gen_Shopping_Null_Null_All+Products+4055-01+Digestive+Health+and+Fiber&UTM_Content=PRODUCT+GROUP&SourceCode=INTL4055&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvfOU0Iuz1wIVSmx-Ch3l9AIyEAQYASABEgJ5D_D_BwE

(Can't format on the phone.)
 
John Weiland
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paul wheaton wrote:

I'm glad to get a bit of validation that this is some pretty serious pain.



One of these days, if I get an attack again and can pull off my sock fast enough, I hope to catch the critter below in the act.   Note the date on the cartoon.....it's been a pain in the toe for many a century.
GoutMonster.JPG
[Thumbnail for GoutMonster.JPG]
 
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I have been self treating gout for about 10 years.  My blood type is B+. 
Now what I've learned: 
     If you are acute you drink 4oz of black cherry or tart cherry every 4 hours while awake.  You also push water.  I also take 1000mg black cherry/tart cherry extract and 1000mg tumeric for maintenance and unless I overload on purines I don't have many flares.  Easter is particularly hard because there is usually asparagus, ham, sausage, peas, mushrooms, liquor, beer,   I do find that going vegan while acute does seem to help you recover faster.  Paul, it is the purines that cause the gout and contribute to the gall problems.
     I can have purines in moderation as long as I remain hydrated and take the supplements. 
The pain is about the worst I've had and I've had some serious orthopedic injuries.  I'll take that pain over a gout flare anyday.  I've been treated with OTC antiinflamatories, prescription anti inflamatories, narcotics (a worse choice), steroids and once antibiotics.  The steroids and abx were a misdiagnosis of cellulitis, but the steroids took the inflamation and pain away overnight.

My wife and I have gone vegetarian/keto ish in the past 6 months and I've had about a 20lb weight loss and nearly no flares.  My doc has tried to put me on allopurinal or the other one (can't remember what it is right now), but cherry extract and tumeric are working without side effects.

As far as the gall bladder I'd get checked out.  My day job is a GI nurse and getting bloodwork, an ultrasound or an MRCP will tell you if you need your gallbladder out or an ERCP to clean out your bile duct. 

As far as answering the original question if they two are related its a maybe.  Gallstones are precipitated in different ways.  Its genes (probably blood type), diet, lifestyle etc.  Having assisted in extracting all different kinds of stones/sludge I would strongly advise not waiting for treatment.  It can sometimes be life threatening.
 
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My uncle (on mom's side) and father both suffered from gout, which then was passed onto me. My first attack, about 12 years ago, was when I was a vegetarian and very active (played soccer often). I tried everything, even went to an acupuncturist. I would get an attack maybe three times a year. About 5 years ago I went fully vegan. This reduced the gout attacks tremendously along with daily exercise, LOTS of water and no beer. Yet the attacks would still happen (maybe once a year), but each time they got worse. Finally, I got on allopurinal, 300mg daily. Now I'm able to detect a coming bout of gout, at which time I slam a bunch of Ibuproprin and as much water as I can stand (which makes me have to pee several times at night), but I've been gout-free for years now. (One time I thought I was finished with gout, quit taking alloprinol, and soon had another attack). Before going the alloprinol route, try this: EXERCISE!, lots of water, vegan diet, loose weight. Good luck. Gout is something to get serious about getting rid of. Two fingers and a toe have permanent damage due to gout. (PS: don't exercise when you have gout. Those mean crystals will tear up your body. Drink lots of water to get things moving out of your body.)
 
pollinator
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I'm not sure about blood type but 7 years ago my gall bladder had to be removed after it ruptured. I had 2 episodes that were the exact same meal each time, BBQ ribs followed by a milk shake.

First time I wasn't seen by a doc, after they confirmed it wasn't a heart attack they sat me in a corner for an hour, gave me some pain killer and sent me home. So second time I laid in the cool bathroom for a couple hours figuring the same, but pain didn't stop so I drove in and ultrasound showed lots of bile and a big stone.

Next day I had a fever and pain in the moderate range, went back in and definitely had an infection. Was in the hospital for 4 days on IV drip only, no food or water sucked! Then they removed the gall bladder, the stone was really big. My diet is still very inconsistent, healthy meals mixed with total junk food... Improving my diet has been an ongoing process! 😁
 
Judith Browning
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paul wheaton wrote:

Judith Browning wrote:My blood type is AB negative...

I looked up my diet for blood type once and remember thinking it was close to what I eat now.  I'll have to check it out again.

I hate to think of you in that kind of pain...it's amazing how something that small can cause such excruciating pain.




It would be interesting to see what it says.  I tried to look it up and it just seemed to say that AB was really rare and a hybrid of A and B.  ??



This doesn't seem to differentiate AB negative from AB positive...


those with Type AB blood are not built to eat a lot of animal protein and thrive best on a near vegan diet, says D'Adamo. If you choose animal protein, opt for lean meats such as lamb, mutton, rabbit and turkey, and all seafood. D'Adamo recommends that limiting meat consumption to one to three servings weekly and limiting fish to three to five servings each week. Eggs and fermented dairy foods, such as yogurt and kefir, are beneficial for people with Type AB, but D'Adamo recommends limiting eggs to three to five servings and dairy to three to four servings weekly.



For Type ABs to feel and function optimally, it's recommended that the bulk of your diet come from a variety of plant foods. This includes fruits, vegetables, legumes and whole grains. Nuts and seeds supply a good source of protein. However, they contain lectins -- carb-binding proteins -- which Type ABs do not digest well, according to D'Adamo. He recommends eating nuts and seeds in small amounts about two to five times per week. For healthy fats, olive oil is highly beneficial, according to D'Adamo.



https://www.livestrong.com/article/328556-what-foods-are-good-for-ab-negative-blood-type/

This is really how I eat now and also before my gall bladder attack.....interesting.  Chicken and tuna are the only meats I eat consistently, eggs, and lots of legumes and vegetables.  Yesterday, though, I had a lovely elk/lamb meat ball made by my dau. in law...settled nicely.

The standout diet thing just before (over a summer) gall bladder attack, was cream cheese from raw goat milk, naturally clabbored and strained...I loved it.  I used the whey for baking and in ferments and the 'cheese' on anything I could.  I always suspected that somewhat but now that I hear a gallstone can take ten years to develop I can see all sorts of things that might have caused them.  I think the bile production to digest the aged chedder that I ate the day of my first attack is what moved a gallstone to the duct though.  The pain did not stop and I was very ill from the resulting pancreatitis...I didn't question the surgery and still don't really....the pain stopped. 

EDIT....For the most part I avoid wheat in any form...an occasional organic sour dough baguette (our son is a professional baker) I'm not convinced that sour dough negates the 'bad' in wheat but I love it. 

I've avoided sugar for years and still have a problem going on binges this time of year....I feel better generally without any sugar and very little fruit sugars.

one more link that seems to go to more depth and confirm the quotes above..... https://www.3fatchicks.com/blood-type-diet-6-foods-to-avoid-for-blood-type-ab/

 
Judith Browning
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I looked up women that had gone through the gallstone thing and childbirth.  It seemed unanimous that gallstone pain is much worse than childbirth.   I even found one woman saying that she would rather give birth a thousand times than have one more gallstone event.  I'm really glad I found that - I feel like less of a whiner now.  



I totally agree with this...two natural childbirths were nothing compared to the pain of a gall bladder attack...it is just amazing wipe you out pain.
 
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I'm O+.  I have low grade pain in the joint of my big toe on one foot most of the time for the last 10 years or so.  I had one flair up of full-blown gout a couple years ago and oh man, does it hurt.  It woke me up after I went to bed and had slept a couple hours.  I couldn't even have the sheets touching my foot.  Sleeping was entirely out of the question.  Since I couldn't sleep anyway, I did what anyone would do, Googled it   I found out about tart cherry juice, drank a bottle of it over a few hours, and it was gone.  I started drinking it again this morning to try to get rid of the remaining pain.  I haven't been doing anything about it because it wasn't too bad, but now I'm suffering a really bad (for me) flair up of eczema, so I'm re-evaluating my diet again.  It has really gone downhill the last couple years, so I'm determined to do better.
 
pollinator
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I had Gout Paul.  Carnivore diet has cleared up all symptoms, and from what I've read from others who eat this way that's the normal.  Can't have gout without carbs, apparently.  Worth a month of experimenting in my opinion.
 
paul wheaton
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Matt Walker wrote:I had Gout Paul.  Carnivore diet has cleared up all symptoms, and from what I've read from others who eat this way that's the normal.  Can't have gout without carbs, apparently.  Worth a month of experimenting in my opinion.



Do you know your blood type?
 
Matt Walker
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No, I don't.
 
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Dear Paul and all those interested,

Gout is no fun.  Arthritis is no fun. Two things have helped me.  I am now 66 years young. 

1. Buy a dozen top quality eggs. Pick from your own hens, free range, organic, etc.  Hard boil them. When done make deviled eggs (if you like). Save the shells which includes the thin membrane inside, put on cookie sheet and put into the oven for 5 minutes at lowest setting say 200 degrees.  When dried put in coffee grinder and grind.  Put into a bowl.  If you have a capsulator then fill capsules and store in glass jar.  Take one a day or I now take 1 every 2 or 3 days.  If you do not have a capsulator them you can sprinkle a 1/2 tsp in your morning smoothie.  This really helps my joints and gout.

2. Dr Fuhrman (drfuhrman.com) has a great article on what to do for gout.  I have adopted his nutritarian type lifestyle eating plan and am very happy with it.  In his clinic in New Jersey he basically heals all his patients with whole foods.  He has a great success ration with all his patients.  I have attached his article here.    I guess I cannot attach a word doc so it will be below and I will try to send it separately.

Hope this helps, remember "we are what we eat".

Sincerely Scott Holbrook

Gout
________________________________________

Drfuhrman.com  /  Gout is a metabolic disease involving sharp crystals of uric acid (urate) forming in joints or other areas of the body. Gouty attacks come on episodically, causing joint swelling and pain. Pseudogout is a similar condition which involves calcium pyrophosphate crystals.
Overview
________________________________________
Gout can affect both women and men but is much more common in men and overall affects approximately 4% of the U.S. population.1 Signs and symptoms of a gouty attack may include:
• Severe and sudden pain in joint(s) (even light touch is painful)
• Commonly involves joint at base of big toe
• Arthritis pain comes on within hours and may last for several days
• Involved joints may be warm, red, and swollen (also present with infections)
How do you know if you are going to get a gouty attack? Here are some risk factors to be aware of:
• High uric acid level (can be tested by your doctor)
• Dehydration
• Certain medications can increase uric acid (diuretics, aspirin, niacin, cyclosporine A)
• Excessive intake of alcohol
• Excessive intake of animal products which are high in purines, such as seafood, meats, poultry, and organ meats (although plant foods have purines as well, they are not associated with gouty attack risk)2
• Excessive intake of high fructose corn syrup (sweetened beverages, etc.)
• Kidney disease (difficulty getting rid of uric acid)
• Having certain factors can increase risk of pseudogout (hyperparathyroidism, hemochromatosis, hypomagnesemia, osteoarthritis, use of proton pump inhibitor medications, and others)
• Genetic factors (rare)
• Rapid weight loss (although not typically observed from weight loss, observed from eating a Nutritarian diet)
• A recent injury
• Being overweight or obese
Often when someone gets a gouty attack, there are multiple factors working together to reach a threshold. Overwhelmingly, the lifestyle factors that are modifiable (diet, water intake, alcohol use, sweetened beverage use) are by far the strongest factors contributing to gout risk. A Nutritarian lifestyle is a sure way of reducing this risk automatically, even in those with a predisposition to the disease.
Action Plan
________________________________________
Diet
• A Nutritarian eating style addresses the important factors related to gout, including:
o Low animal product intake
o Low processed food intake (no sweetened beverages)
o Low alcohol use
o Increasing vegetable intake creates a more alkaline environment which neutralizes acids such as uric acid (gout) and pyrophosphoric acid (pseudogout)
o Helping you reach an ideal weight
• Although high purine foods are associated with risk of a gouty attack, it appears only animal-based purine intake is associated significantly with risk of an attack1
• Stay hydrated
• Avoid alcohol
Review secondary risk factors with your doctor, such as medications and diseases
Find additional help at our Wellness Center
The Dr. Fuhrman Wellness Center in New Jersey
We specialize in the reversal and prevention of disease using nutritional methods instead of medication. Lose weight, regain your health and overcome food addiction. LEARN MORE
Ask The Doctor
________________________________________
The following are sample questions from the Ask the Doctor Community Platinum and higher members can post their health questions directly to Dr. Fuhrman. (All members can browse questions and answers.)
Q.  I’ve been on and off a Nutritarian diet for a while now. I have chronic gout and my uric acid levels are 10.3. My rheumatologist wants me to begin Allopurinol. How quickly can I expect my uric acid levels to drop with a strict Nutritarian diet WITHOUT the medicine? Should I take Allopurinol AND do the diet, or will that cause a severe drop resulting in worsening attacks?
A.  I usually wait about a month on a Nutritarian diet before discontinuing the Allopurinol on patients requiring it in the past. In your case, you may not even have to start the medicine if you really stick with a Nutritarian diet. Doing both the medication and the diet won’t necessarily hurt you, but all medications have their risks, and you likely will see dramatic benefits in a week or two. So, if you eliminate all animal products at this point and follow a Nutritarian diet strictly, your uric acid levels will be dramatically lower soon. Drink a full glass of water between each meal too. Check your uric acid level again next month, and let’s see how it improves and how you feel.
Q.  I would like to know what I can do to treat gout.
A.  Avoid animal products and all processed foods and oils. Limit spinach, asparagus, and mushrooms to two to four oz./day. Limit fruits higher in fructose (apple, grapes, melon, pear, and dried fruit). Limit beans to one cup/day until the swelling and pain are gone. Continue to avoid animal products until you’re better, then limit to six oz./week. Stay hydrated. Drink four oz. of tart cherry juice two to three times per day. It has been shown to reduce inflammation and pain related to gout. Get lean and eliminate belly fat.
References
1. Duskin-Bitan H, Cohen E, Goldberg E, et al. The degree of asymptomatic hyperuricemia and the risk of gout. A retrospective analysis of a large cohort. Clin Rheumatol 2014, 33:549-553.
2. Choi HK, Atkinson K, Karlson EW, et al. Purine-rich foods, dairy and protein intake, and the risk of gout in men. N Engl J Med 2004, 350:1093-1103.

 
pollinator
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I do not have any health problem, except for a 'cold' in this season. My blood type is 0+ and I eat only very little meat (most poultry) about once a week. I eat cheese and eggs almost every day. And lots of veggies and fruits.

But my husband (who died in 2016) had gallstones, at the hospital his total gall bladder had to be removed, it was full of 'stones'. In the years after that surgery he started having inflammations and pain in all of his joints. Sometimes getting worse, sometimes less. It wasn't exactly 'gout', but I think related. He used all kinds of medication prescribed by doctors. I tried to make his diet as healthy as I could, but he did not want to stop eating meat (daily). I forgot his exact bloodtype, as far as I remember some AB-type. 

My idea is: one of the reasons for his death was the almost constant inflammations he had, together with all pharmaceuticals, eating the wrong stuff and the lung problems he had since his youth ...

I hope this is the kind of information you want to have Paul.
 
Todd Parr
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It's fascinating to me that you have people from all areas of the spectrum, vegan to paleo to carnivore, that thrive on their particular diet.  Obviously, no group is wrong, so rather than figuring out which is "better", I look for the similarities in diets that would seem, at first glance, to be polar opposites.  Without fail, the diets that are working for people, have some things in common.  No processed foods, no processed sugars, whole foods, whether meats or veggies or fruits.  It seems that as long as you follow those guidelines, personal preference can dictate.  There are some major differences, especially when it comes to grains and dairy, but an easy fix for that is to follow an elimination diet for 6 or 8 weeks, and then try adding in common trigger foods to see how your body reacts.
 
Tim Skufca
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My wife is a nurse that adamantly said NO! to allopurinol, but when it was between the downsides of this DRUG! and the harm of those mean crystals eating away at my joints, she is now a fan of the drug. But I still maintain the best route to take is to EXERCISE!!!, reduce weight, and drink LOTS!!! of water. Starting in on an allopurinol regimen is not always easy. This drug shakes things up and can cause more attacks as the uric acid is being mobilized. HOWEVER, the best wisdom is that every body is different. Try everything until you get your solution.
 
John Weiland
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Todd Parr wrote: Without fail, the diets that are working for people, have some things in common.  No processed foods, no processed sugars, whole foods, whether meats or veggies or fruits.



Tim Skufca wrote:.....I still maintain the best route to take is to EXERCISE!!!, reduce weight, and drink LOTS!!! of water.



To me at least, these two ideas sum up what would be true for most who are *actively* participating within a hunter-gatherer or diverse, localized agricultural system without the accoutrements of the modernized version of both, [..even though I'm not going to even try to define where modern begins and primitive ends ].

Edited to add that there may as well be developmental component to something like gout:  If exercise and diet are crucial as a protective mechanism against the condition, then it may have been important to have those optimized throughout one's development.  Optimizing one's personal exercise and diet later in life is always advisable, but not necessarily as curative of certain ills  as we might like to hope.  Nevertheless, amazing recovery and rejuvenation has been observed in individuals who make dedicated, healthy life-style changes.
 
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My father has gout that started twenty years or so ago, he's gotten it almost completely under control without any medication. He's vegetarian but not vegan, he also avoids other high-purine foods to a certain extent and eats a lot of cherries (mostly dried), as well as generally avoiding junk food. He's a type O+.

I'm a type A+ and haven't had any gout, although I'm on the watch for it later in my life, it started for my father when he was about five years older than I am now. I don't do well of a vegetarian diet however, at least at this point in my life.

That's why I'm skeptical of the blood type diets, because according to the theory my father should need meat and I should be the vegetarian. However it may still be more likely for certain blood typed to need certain diets.
 
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Others have covered this already, but I am moved to contribute also.  the answer to all gout and gall stones, regardless of blood type and personal genetics, is a ketogenic diet: high, 80+% fat ( a few percentage of which is equal amounts of  omega 3 and omega 6 fats and the rest any combination of omega 9 and saturated fats); moderate, 15 % protein (half of the body protein is formed from collagen  which is made up of 3 amino acids and is found in skin, hair, tendons, ligaments, all connective tissue, the outer layer of all the larger bones -- all the meat parts that most people throw out); and low, 5 % carbohydrates from green leafy vegetables including cruciferous which are mostly steamed.  No grains, no refined sugar, minimal fruits, no chemicals, no excess omega 6 fatty acids, no msg.  In your, Paul's, case it will have one drawback -- you will lose weight.  Dr. Berg in your video selection is a great reference.  Finally, vegan diets are good and useful and healthy for about 30 days only because they are detoxifying diets whose good effects are exhausted after that.  Then they become slow starvation diets good for fungi, bacteria, and few animals.
 
Tim Skufca
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Lee Kochel:
"Finally, vegan diets are good and useful and healthy for about 30 days only because they are detoxifying diets whose good effects are exhausted after that.  Then they become slow starvation diets good for fungi, bacteria, and few animals."

So what should I be suffering from since I've followed a vegan diet for about 6 years?
 
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My Dad had his gallbladder removed a few years ago. I never had official diagnosis of stones, however I occasionally dull pain and hard to describe feelings under my ribs, and when I was pregnant, I had pain from my son pushing (or so I thought) under my ribs. About a month ago, I was eating lots of chayote leaves (cooked and also raw in smoothies), and lemon (I like to put a quarter of frozen lemon in my water or a smoothie, including skin, seeds and all), and my usual herbal preparations and supplements. Possibly something else, but those might have contributed to me releasing the stones. Painlessly. The only reason I knew was because I kept going number two often and after couple of them within 15 minutes, I decided to take a shower to feel cleaner, LOL. While I was taking a shower, stone fell out, and I even thought it feel in through the window. We do have a screen, so that was not possible. I picked it up, and it was slippery, so I realized it was from me. I looked and took a stick and smushed it -it was like a hardish wax. I googled waxy intestine stones, and came up on info, that they are cholesterol stones and stored in gall bladder, but made by the liver. That's why getting the gallbladder out is not yet the end of the story. Not for very long, anyway.  Stone was not that small, and maybe I imagined, but my under rib area feels so much emptier now. I looked at my other stools for a while and saw several more stones coming out. One time a few -I could clearly see them as they were darker color than the stool and I pressed them with popcicle stick and they had the same consistency. Now the problem is, I am not quite sure, what exactly I did to soften those stones since I didn't do any official cleanse. However chayote leaves are one of the many herbs/plants that soften and help to pass stones.
   Here is what I have in my herbal files about herbs:
Liver/gallbladder herbs
Greater Celandine (Chelidonium majus)- whole plant is used. Also great for migraines and dissolves stones.
Gold Coin Grass (Lysimachia christiniae, Herba Lysimachiae, Jin Qian Cao) can be found in almost all Chinese ancient liver gallbladder cleanse recipes, thanks to its amazing ability on dissolving stones and other health benefits. Besides of the compound prescriptions, clinically it is also often being used alone for gallstone removal. Lysimachia is a perennial creeping herb. Stems are delicate, prostrate, and 20 to 60cm long; surface is gray-green or reddish purple; the entire plant is glabrous or sparsely hairy. Opposite leaves are glabrous and with 1 to 3cm petiole; blade is oval, nearly round to kidney shape, 1.5 to 8cm long, and 1 to 6cm wide. Suggested gold coin grass dosage is from 15 to 60 grams in dried herb or 30 to 120 in fresh herb, in decoction or juice.
Ground Ivy , creeping charlie ( Glechoma hederacea) is also used to melt kidney and liver/gallbladder stones.
Bile salts and lecithin supplements miht help to disolve stones as well.
Fresh radish juice - start with 2-3 ounces by weight, and increase slowly to 12-14 ounces per day, before breakfast. Continue for 2-3 weeks at that dose, then reduce to 2-3 ounces again and continue until problems resolve.
Bogbean (Menyanthes trifoliata)- tincture -a droper 3 times a day. Also great for viral conditions (including shingles), regulating hormones. Can make strong infusion (1 oz of herb to a pint of water), take 4 tabslp.  several times a day. Keep in the fridge.
Burdock
Kidney/gallbladder stones
Excess calcium and low magnesium, K2 and B group vitamin diet creates perfect conditions to form stones, especially where chronic dehydration is present.
******************************************
Kidney Stone Recipe:
· Raw Apple Juice (if you can find it or make it – the less processed, the better)
· Dandelion Root (capsule or tincture)
· Goldenseal Root (capsule or tincture)
To dissolve the stone, take 8 oz of juice and a capsule each or herb (or one dose of tincture) every hour that you are awake – and nothing else to eat or drink. (You won’t be hungry anyway – this juice fills up the tummy, and kidney stones masks any other sensation.) If it is not a stone, these herbs work to heal the kidney or maintain its natural healing.
                          recipe from beyonedwheatandweeds.com
*****************************************************************
Chanca Piedra
Jordan Princess Basma uses for kidney stones Silvery Whitlow-wort (Paronychia argentea Lam), foot of the pigeon in Arabic. She gathers a handful, rinses it with cold water and pours boiling water over it. She steeps it for a few mnutes and drinks it.  Pain is totally gone in 10-15 minutes.
Gromwell ( Lithospermum officinale)
Tulsi
decoction -- which consists of just two herbs -- Heart Vine (Tinospora cordifolia) and Chanca Piedra (Phyllanthus niruri)
Chayote leaves -make tea
Queen's Crepe Myrtle (banaba tea)
Horsetail
Lemon juice in water since it has citrate, that helps.
Cardamom seeds
Dandelion tea or tincture from whole plant
Garrya elliptica (coast silk-tassel, silk tassel bush or wavyleaf silktassel) great for gallbladder, kidney stone, and bile cramping pain. It can cause the duct to relax sufficiently to allow the stone, gravel or whatever else to pass with less resistance and pain.
Burdock seeds have often been used as a remedy for kidney stones and urinary calculi. Cook states they "are very serviceable in irritation and aching if the bladder, scalding urine, and urine charged with mucous and gray sediments." Colonial herbalist Johann Christoph Sauer, who wrote one of the first herbals in the "New World", stated that "The seed, taken in one-quint (1/8 ounce) doses every two weeks, will prevent stones in the kidneys and bladder."
"Herbs used for gallstones are dandelion, golden seal, mistletoe, yellow dock, oak, parsley, and wild yam."  Dr. Christopher
Hydrangea and marshmallow - hydrangea breaks them down and marshmallow coats them and keeps them from hurting as they exit.
Claudia Orgill from Healthy preparedness blog recommends:
Here are the three simple steps I do to eliminate the pain (and cause) that comes with having a kidney stone within 1-2 hours:

1) Take a magnesium pill - enough times a day to the point where diarrhea begins to occur. (Cut back on the magnesium once that occurs. You want to saturate the body with as much magnesium as possible for that first day.) You can also topically rub magnesium chloride oil over the area that is having spasms - or continually drink water from a glass full of water containing 1/2 tsp of magnesium oil.

2) Drink a mix of 1 part fresh lemon juice and 1 part olive oil. Drink 2-3 Tbsp's at a time - every 2-3 hours the first day.

3) Drink plenty of water to flush that kidney stone out.

 
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My mother is 94 and has all her marbles, and no health issues other than high blood pressure, which she is addressing by taking natural cures.  She takes no pharmaceutical products.  Some of her advantage is good genes, but, she swears by Eat Right 4 Your Type (Dr. Peter D'Adamo).  OK,  she was misdiagnosed by her doctor for gallstones (the doctor said she didn't have any).  What she found with research is that uncalcified gall stones are not visible on Xray, Ultrasound, MRI, Cat Scan, ...  Endoscope will see them, of course.  She found a natural doctor (Biochemistry PHd?) Hulda Clark, who said that gall stones are caused by parasites, and that to remove gall stones, first kill the parasites.  Hulda Clark has a parasite (liver) cleanse, which is 14? days long.  First day is 1 drop of poison (cloves, wormwood, black hull walnut tincture, can't remember the others).  After 14 drops on day 14, rest a day.  Then drink a cup of epson salts at noon, then 3? hours later drink another cup of epson salts.  6 hrs? after the first epson salts drink, drink a cup of olive oil (mix in grapefruit juice if you cant hold it down).  Wait a while.  Stay close to the loo.  Soon the ACTION  should start.  She claimed to remove 2000 gall stones varying in size from tiny to marble sized.  Also, a lot of silt and other gunk is removed.  This is almost like an oil change for humans.

Now I tried the same thing, but nothing happened.  Then, 3 months later, I got pancreatitis diagnosed while on a ski trip to Kelowna, from VAncouver.  Back in VAncouver, another 4 trips to VGH.  I told the doctors that I might have a gall stone stuck in my system somewhere, but, they kept hinting that if only I would stop being an alcoholic, everything would be fine.  My brother is an alcoholic, but I am not.  Perhaps they thought I was he?  So, eventually, it was time for the endoscope, and, voila, they found a gallstone jammed into the sphincter (check valve) at the point where the common bile duct connects to the intestine.  They removed the gall stone, cut the valve to make it a bigger opening, and cleaned the bile duct.  I then repeated the Hulda Clark Liver Cleanse 5? times, and got tons of gallstones, silt, and other gunk to come out.  One was round and wide as my thumb.  Doctors said impossible.  I scooped a bunch of them and put into an empty pill bottle.  Showed my doctor, Hey, look what I have.  He said - Did you have your gall baldder removed?  Boy those doctors are sure quick to catch on!!!

My experience was very different from my mothers.  However, the outcome was extremely beneficial to me, in the end, but only after a very high risk life threatening situation.  I would recommend that anyone interested to keep their gall bladder do a 6 month program of taking apple cider vinegar (as mentioned), or whatever reduces the size of the gallstones, first, before trying the Hulda Clark protocol. Also, if your gall stones are uncalcified, be very careful how you approach the doctors.  They are never wrong, right?

A few years after that I developed a gangrinous gallbladder, which also nearly killed me.  broke my knee skating, because my balance was so bad, and the doctors found the puss filled gall bladder two days after the knee surgery.  As big as football. They couldn't remove it. They drained it, and the mess was really bad (think balloon of puss spraying everywhere in OR). (glad I was under for that one). 85% chance of reinfection.  I am glad they didn't remove it.  The gall bladder is not an optional organ!!!

The foods we eat contain lectins that are compatible, neutral, or poisonous (inflammation causing) to our bodies.The first blood type was blood type O, and is primarly meat eater.  can drink beer too.  Blood type A is primarily vegetarian, beer is poison (glutin based), but wine is highly beneficial.  Vinegar is bad for type A. The other types have their own list of compatible and incompatible foods.  Is it 100%?.  I don't think so.  There are other things that should be done to improve your health.  But things that cause inflammation should be addressed proactively, and eating food compatible with blood type is a GREAT starting point.  IT gives your body a BIG rest, every DAY, OK

Inflammation is also caused by glutin (Please read the Wheat Belly Book). 

I grow my own food using rock dust, in an area out on the prairies that has sandy soil, and my health is 10000000000000000000 X better improved.  Cut sugar 99%.  Cut bread 90%.  Cut meat 70%.  EAt mostly chicken for meat, that is almost like organic (no antibiotics, hormones, ...).  EAt mostly vegetables, quinoa.  I also eat my own potatoes, which is a no no, but, they seem to be beneficial.  Rice is not beneficial, especially the processed rices.

If you buy supplements that are natural based (a lot of multivitamins and pills are junk), which is expensive, then that also may help.   Everybody should be taking tumeric (and black pepper?).  Fermented tumeric might be a better way to go.

And of course, there's Vitamin C.  Take the right kind, and lots of it.  Vitamin D3 also, the right kind, lots of it.
 
Hope this helps.

Good luck.
 
Joy Oasis
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Very interesting story. I did cleanse once in my twenties and felt so bad (just one of two times, when I felt like I am going to die), that I swore I will never try that again. I felt so sick, that I didn't even look, if I passed anything. I think there are gentler ways with herbs/juices, etc.
How do you ferment the turmeric?
 
mark tompkins
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Joy,

I've never fermented turmeric, but there are companies that do.  But their products are very expensive.  One of them I believe they is called Organixx.  I learned of this through the Truth About Cancer Series (Ty Bollinger).  Organixx is connected to him somehow, I believe.

Don't know of any others off hand.  It might be very useful for someone who is an expert on herbal supplements via fermentation to weigh in here, or start a whole new thread.  Maybe if a person adds turmeric or other herbs to kimchee, or sauerkraut, that might make it happen.

Hope this helps!!!

Mark
 
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Paul, Sorry you're hurting.   My perspective is from 28 yrs' as a Naturopath/Chiropractor.    I have found the info at NUTRI-SPEC.NET to be the most pertinent for explaining functional medicine,  which I believe would be useful to your situation .  I'm not much of a typer , so if I can help please give me a call at 704 472 9500.    The website above can give you referrals to a Nutri-Spec doctor ,hopefully in your area.   The site itself is full of info, altho too nerdy for most.    Information about natural medicine can be broad and shallow.  I have found Nutri-Spec protocols to be specific and deep.    Thanks for all ya'll do
Ezra Edgerton, DC/ND    North Carolina  
 
paul wheaton
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I managed to go about two months without gout.  And a few days ago it came back.   I went one night with hardly any sleep due to pain. 

What gives!   I've been very good at this diet!

I had been adding in a little chicken, fish and nuts because my doctor implored me to.  There was concern that I was not getting enough protein.  When the gout came back, I cut those immediately.   Still have gout.   Going over and over every spec of everything to see what could be the root of the problem.  Jocelyn and I got to the point of debating. 

Google got a powerful workout.  My doctor once said that "gout is ALL about the purines".  So I found a purines table and quoted that to jocelyn.  She asked about eggs, which were not on that table.  In searching for a new table, I came up with a table that appeared far more sophisticated. 

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bpb/37/5/37_b13-00967/_html

A few numbers:

rice 26
almonds 31
peanuts 49
dried nori seaweed: 592
eggs 0(zero)
yogurt 5
strawberry 2
Avocado 18
broccoli 70
carrots 2
ginger 2
parsley 289
spinach 172
beef 79-110
chicken 122-154
pork 62-138

So, carrots and eggs are good.  Seaweed is bad.  During a gout attack, probably wise to not eat anything with a score of 20 or higher.  And eat plenty of stuff with a score of 10 or lower.  And, as always, lots and lots of cherries.

And then I spotted this:

chlorella 3183

This is bluegreen algae.   I started taking this as a supplement about 12 years ago.   Off and on for years.   But jocelyn has been great at helping me to remember to take my supplements.  Especially for the gallstones and gout.  I told her I wanted these included because I have concerns about heavy metals in my system and if you take these every day for many years it slowly makes a difference at removing heavy metals.   I do feel like it helped in that space.

Let's try comparing to peanuts - because I was cutting out peanuts due to their high purine count.  I was eating about 4 cups of peanuts per week.  My chlorella tablets added up to about a tablespoon a day which works out to a half cup per week.  So 8 time more peanuts than chlorella.  And chlorella has 65 times more purines than peanuts.  So my chlorella was bringing 8 times more purines, total, per week, than the peanuts.   If I left out the chlorella, I could eat about 32 cups (2 gallons) of peanuts in a week to get the same purine level.   So if I am going to cut peanuts, I should definitely cut chlorella.

Further, my reading suggests that purine stuff is cumulative.  So it is possible that years and years of chlorella could have put me into this problem space.   I didn't have any signs of gout until after arriving here at the property - the same time that jocelyn arrived and has been helping me remember to take my supplements.  The gout would be a problem and then it would go away - maybe tied to how well i remembered to take my supplements.  And then after the gallstone, i was making super sure to take my supplements and my gout lasted for 14 days. 

In another article I was reading something about how lead plays a role in the body to counter uric acid problems.  Of course, the chlorella was taking heavy metals out of my body very, very slowly.  

This is a whole LOT of mish mash from a lot of different bits and bobs.  Nothing conclusive, and far too wildly speculative.  But it is the beginning of a thought that might have some pretty solid explanations. 

So I just want to pour on a heavy dose of "maybe, possibly, speculation, wild ass guess, clues and hints" to this post.   I stopped the chlorella yesterday evening.  Today, just past noon, my foot feels far better. Almost all better.  And it was extremely painful yesterday.  Even if I never have another gout attack for 20 years, it doesn't imply causation, but it would be indicative that there might have been causation. 

Then there is the gallstone stuff.   I am wondering if there is a connection.  It might be possible that eliminating the chlorella could also make my gallstones disappear. 

So this is an update expressing an additional area of exploration.  More news as events warrant.


 
Tim Skufca
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my gout has been gone for years now, and I correlate this with three things: 1). I now take Alupirinol daily (which Marta has stopped being concerned about since there has been ZERO gout attacks since starting that drug. She realizes the horror/permanent damage that gout causes is much worse than side affects of Alupurinol. 2). I'm down to 170 pounds from close to 190 when I was suffering from gout. I don't want to test if weight loss is enough to stop taking Alupirinol. It's cheap.  3). I go to the YMCA 5 to 6 times a week with cardio (cycling) and pilates and yoga (with a sauna as a "carrot" to get me there). I hate exercising!, but if it means no gout, I'm there. I certainly know where you're at. [also, moderation in all plant-based foods. A quart of peanuts a week!!] Sorry for being so blunt, but your body will thank you if you ended those damn gout attacks. Good luck
 
paul wheaton
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I am now totally pain free.  And it has been just a day and a half since cutting the chlorella.  After a week or so, I am thinking of adding some higher purine foods again to see what happens.


Tim,

Did you once tell me something about spirulina?  Because I saw that on the list and thought "Was Tim telling me about that?"

 
Tim Skufca
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no, I've never eaten spirulina.
One other detail: I made the mistake of quitting Allopurinol (the correct spelling) after being gout-free for a few months, and eventually gout came back. AND, it takes months for your body to get the Allopurinol set in your body before it does its job, so if you decide to try this drug you need to give it at least 6 months or so to do its thing. I now take a 300mg pill every other day. It costs pennys a day, and I don't detect any side affects.
 
Lee Kochel
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My fallback is always a ketogenic diet (high fat - 80%, but no extra omega 6s, moderate protein - 15%, low carb - 5% from leafy dark green vegetables), combined with intermediate fasting.  And occasionally total fasting for more than a day.  Except for emergency situations this can help often more than any medicine or procedure.  Also, I know you didn't ask, and I know that there are a few decent doctors out there, but in general asking a doctor for diet advice, when his business model depends on return visits, is a little like asking a wolf for design assistance when building your hen house.
 
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Now I'm 43. I first had a gallstone attack at 36. I had been vegetarian since I was 17, but had started to eat some meat, mostly fish. I was also drinking a fair bit of wine and whisky for 3 years preceding the attack, and curiously--for a year before the attack--was suddenly compelled to stop drinking entirely.

My veg diet was mostly foods rich in phytates and lectins. I learned about their dietary role from this guy.  Not a lot of fruit or fresh veg, a lot of grains and beans, cheese and nuts. My body told me to add some veg, so a year before the attack I started reheating my brown rice & beans with a couple handfuls of spinach and some cheese. I ate probably 12oz of rice and beans every night, and during the day granola or muesli with nut milk (pasteurized cow milk disgusts me), grilled cheese, roasted mixed nuts, dried fruit, processed vegetarian foods like fake ham & cheese empanadas. Everything was based around that huge nightly meal of rice & beans.

I'm strongly noninterventionist when it comes to western medicine, in part from my parents (patho dad and mom a nurse). While languishing in bed I read about explosive diarrhea incidence in gallbladder removal patients and concluded that was terrible, plus I lived in NYC where sudden explosive diarrhea would be a death sentence. I imagined squatting beneath two subway cars, burning with shame, and being jostled down onto the tracks where I'd be hamburgered with my pants down. It's hard to pee in NYC, never mind take a dump.

Sooo I fought the entire GI team for 4 days, they even sent in a surgeon who was "vegetarian" (he had converted a year prior) who told me "vegetarians don't need their gallbladders", it was a parade of sophistries. Somehow I learned it was a $17k surgery that can be done blind and asleep with one hand tied behind back, and I became even more deadset against a doctor putting an addition on his home in exchange for my explosive diarrhea of indeterminate duration.

Finally they dared me to eat a meal without passing a stone, as I'd been on liquids for days and had a GB full of stones. I did, felt only mild discomfort, was discharged and went home to study traditional Chinese medicine and find a solution, which I think I did.

I've only had one stone since but I was in agonizing pain and sweating for 12 hours. The trigger meal for the first attack was a lot of roasted salted nuts. The second one was, I believe, Quorn, a bunch of cheese and some potato chips. I managed to make it to a drugstore on my bike and get epsom salts to drink which did nothing.  I've changed my diet to include more fresh fruit and veg, remove most grain and what little there is is sprouted, reduce sugar intake, consume an insane amount of lactofermented veg and kombucha, and add some meat, preferably fish but other stuff in moderation if organic. I have high protein requirements and am very lean, 3% body fat and 29 waist. My digestion actually produces better poos from meat and oil, rich foods, and lots of veg and fruit with no grain.

Eating meat is a minefield of chicaneries and I hate it so much that it drove me to become a permie. Plus the groceries in the foodstream are such trash...I love fruit but I can't believe what the stores are fobbing off on us as such. Farmers markets in cities have become privilege parades where I can only afford produce if I'm getting foodstamps and can convert them into Freshbucks ($1 foodstamps = $2 farmers market produce, or plant starts). If I gotta eat meat I'm raising or hunting it not buying it for $24 a pound at farmers markets. So really, some key books and my gallstones brought me to where I am today, living in the forest doing permaculture.
 
steward
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paul wheaton wrote:I managed to go about two months without gout.  And a few days ago it came back.  I went one night with hardly any sleep due to pain. 

What gives!   I've been very good at this diet! 


Both Paul and I have been SO relieved his gout pain is over. So, so happy!

And, I'm quoting Paul saying the above so that I can expound a bit more on what his diet has been like.

The main goals:
--whole, real foods
--good fats, moderate quantities  (NOT low fat, not quite keto either; though we have steadily increased fats without any gallstone attack or gallbladder symptoms)
--LOTS of veggies (goal of 4 cups each meal, 12 cups per day! ala Dr. Terry Wahl's protocol)
--low-to-no grains
--low-to-no legumes, no soy
--low starchy carbs
--no potatoes, no refined sugars

After the gallstone attacks, we had switched Paul to chicken maybe twice per week, fish once a week, and egg whites frequently. We were just starting to add egg yolks back in (not more than one yolk per day) since egg yolks are high on the list for gallstone attack triggers.

Spinach in big tubs was my frugal, speedy go to for adding greens to eggs, sautes, soups...lots of things. Frugal because it was affordable and because it lasted longer than other washed and ready greens.

Cauliflower was my substitute for rice, mashed potatoes, savory crusts...many things.

Seaweed snacks were our substitute for salty chips.

Mushrooms started going in many things in place of meats.

Parsley went in almost everything, too, plus I made these lovely lemon, olive oil parsley gremolatas which Paul loved.

And then the two weeks of the worst gout happened. We learned thst chicken, fish, spinach, cauliflower, seaweed, and mushrooms are all VERY HIGH in purines.

We didn't know about the chlorella yet, so Paul went vegetarian:  no eggs, no chicken or fish. For a while, he even avoided peanuts. Nuts have been a bit confusing since type A's aren't supposed to have tropical nuts, so we had mostly kept him off nuts, too.

So I would make him roasted root veggies (no potatoes), veggie sautes, vegan Mexican soup, vegan curry, vegan tikka masala, vegan squash soup, vegan marinara sauce on konjac noodles, vegan stuffed squash. Raw sliced veggies adorning many plates. Fermented foods at most meals. We would have rice or quinoa maybe once a week. Lots of avocados. Oils have been olive oil, avocado oil, macadamia nut oil, coconut oil and grassfed organic ghee. Lots of fresh pineapple and fresh berries. Some dried fruit (especially dried cherries) here and there.

Paul's standby foods when I wasn't cooking have been plain whole milk yogurt with jam (usually fruit juice sweetened) and berries on top (somehow this has been working for him); these Forager chips that have veggies as the main ingredients, and a Kite Hill brand almond milk chive dip (amazingly simple, whole foods ingredients for a vegan "cheese!"). I usually try to expand the dip by at least double with minced, "safe" veggies: celery, radishes, green onion, etc. And have carrot sticks handy to use in place of chips some of the time. Oh, and maybe there was a "cherry pie" larabar here or there.

Any vegan, vegetarian or omnivore debates aside, all-in-all I think most might agree Paul was eating a fairly healthy diet! (I was damn sure working hard at it!)

Then January was a very busy month for me. Paul was eating more of the jammy yogurt, chips (which while they have fairly good ingredients the chips don't have the best oils ), and the chive dip, some times not expanded.

And the gout started creeping back. I thought it was the jam and chips. Paul didn't think so. The debating Paul mentioned had to do with this.

One day, maybe after I'd been complaining about the oils in the Forager chips again, Paul reached for the seaweed snacks.

'Those have high purines!' I reminded him. He put them back and we both hovered over the computer as he searched again to check. Then, he found the chlorella  (and other, including parsley) numbers. Oy vey.

So he's off the chlorella, I've reduced the parsley (it was usually going in the expanded dip!) and he's back on egg whites or part of an egg at breakfast.

No more gout. No foot pain whatsoever. No unhappy gallbladder. Whew!!

I hope to have more time this month to come up with some chip alternatives for Paul - maybe parsnip chips fried in avocado oil, or something. I also have more experimenting to do with making seed or almond flour crackers. And trying more "safe" versions of fun foods once in a while, like the cherry pudding pie with almond shortbread crust that I made last weekend.

Overall, I think more variety and diversity is better for optimal health, so perhaps with the chlorella gone Paul might have some leeway to have mushrooms once in a while, or chicken or seaweed here and there.

I'm okay if Paul wants to stay vegetarian, or go even more vegan, that's no biggie. We're still figuring out what works best to keep him pain free and healthy, so we'll be optimizing as we stumble along.

Yay to the pain free!!

 
garden master
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I had my 2nd gout attack on 1/9/18.  I feel my attack was brought on by stress and dehydration.  I am still having some minor pain.

From reading here on permies, I feel the long term cause is the high calcium content of our well water.

We are trying to find a water filter that will remove calcium and is reasonably priced, will last and do the volume of water that we need.

I am doing the ACV and cherries.
 
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