How to create a sourdough starter

Kenza Temsamani wrote:Hi. I used all purpose flour. Should I have been using whole wheat? I’m not quite sure what is supposed to be happening now. It’s been seven days. I’m still feeding once a day. Should it rise and fall during that time?

Kenza, all purpose flour is fine, it just needs to be somewhat fresh and free of any additives.

Did your starter start bubbling yet at all?

So, either my Sandor side (or possibly Pearl ) had to come out today and play a little.

I did my regular carefully measured starter feed at 12 or so hours and then with the discard from yesterday that I had also fed last night and this morning I tried the 1:1:1 ratio adding this mornings discard also.
This pic is my grandpa's balance scale from when he was a vet...the weights are in ounces and some tiny drams and grains but no grams so I weighed the jar with the accumulated starter and got an ounce even.  Then in the same size jar the water and then in another jar the  flour...feeling real scientific about then

Mixed it all up in a quart jar and have it side by side with my regular starter that has not been fed since 5 this morning.

So four hours from 2:30pm will be 6:30pm...will report back.

I use the scale off and on when I do some natural dyeing and sometimes in the kitchen so was happy to have an excuse to get it out again.

Well, it smells really good and has bubbles but only rose about an inch...no where near the doubling for a mature starter as Saana explained so it will go in tomorrows skillet bread for lunch....

Yes it’s been bubbling. Not a lot.

Here is a photo after 13 hours

Judith, what a beautiful scale! Indeed it seems like your starter isn’t quite there yet. Are you feeding it once a day at the moment?

Kenza, you could try feeding it every 12 hours for a day or two and see how it reacts. If it doesn’t look like it’s hungry at the 12 hour mark, go back to 24 hour feeding schedule.



I said I would write more about the rye starter thingies, but many of my spoons have been needed elsewhere.

Shortly, you could take a spoonful of a mature starter and just start feeding it rye.
The culture would probably go in to a shock and stop bubbling for a while because of the sudden change in the menu. If you keep feeding it it will bounce back and soon you would have a rye starter going.. It would be faster than starting a rye starter from scratch.

But just to make it clear, you don’t have to bake bread with the same flour you feed the starter.

Saana,
I am feeding twice a day...there are bubbles and clear liquid on top and sometimes in the middle of the starter.

I am still trying to use my balance scale and found that one US penny made after 1982 weighs 2.5 grams. So this made it easy to figure the 20 and 50 gram amounts using penniies as weights.
It looks like I've been using too much starter to water and flour according to weight so have gone with my new weight measurements and will see what happens

Judith, sounds good!

At this point you could also try letting your culture get more hungry.

If you leave your starter without food for longer (24 - you can do 36 hours too between feedings) your starter might double up faster.

The longer hungry period apparently can make your culture prepare their metabolization for the possible incoming food making it more efficient.

Saana,
Ok, I tried going 24 hours and just because it was there I fed another jar at 12 hours...and then I weighed the discard and did a 1:1:1 batch that will be four hours at 5pm here.


So the photo attached is 4am this morning...one has been 24 hours and the other 12 but because I've had them down to peek at and smell and have since fed them I've lost track of who's who in this pic.  The lids are labeled but of course can't see that...

So, grandson says the 24 hour fed one smells fruitier and that's a good thing.
......I think towards bananas?
Just now checking the 1:1:1 batch also smells fruity and the one fed every 12 hours has the same sweet smell as all along....all are bubbly.

When you have some time could you sort me out
Especially what different smells indicate?

I'm weighing rather than measuring volume now.

Judith, how did your 4 hour test go?

About the sweet smell. It comes from the enzymes breaking down starches to simple sugars. Yes, it's a good thing. A starter can go too sweet though, but I don't think that's a problem you're having at the moment, especially if your grandson is saying good things about the smell.

Every starter smells a bit different. The thing that effects most is the flour used. Mine doesn't smell that sweet.

Saana Jalimauchi wrote:Judith, how did your 4 hour test go?

About the sweet smell. It comes from the enzymes breaking down starches to simple sugars. Yes, it's a good thing. A starter can go too sweet though, but I don't think that's a problem you're having at the moment, especially if your grandson is saying good things about the smell.

Every starter smells a bit different. The thing that effects most is the flour used. Mine doesn't smell that sweet.

The previous four hour one did not work but todays did!
I read something here in another sourdough thread that if too runny the bubbles would just escape rather than do the doubling thing so made it just a little thicker.

What do I do now? I stuck it in the refrigerator and still have a jar of 12 hour feed and one of 24 hour...haha...I knew I would do this

Guess I better look at your other thread for recipes!

Do I stir it down when it goes in the refrigerator? I did but wasn't sure...

Sorry to drop out for a while!  My starter did a good "float test" six days ago, but life got messy for a bit and then I has to fridge it for a few days.

Ooooh congratulations both of you!! Yayy!!

Indeed a thin starter doesn’t keep the bubbles in, I’ll edit that in if it’s not written in there yet! Thank you.

About stirring it down before sticking it in the fridge.. The optimal way would be putting it to the fridge right after feeding. The cold slows it down and the food lasts longer. If you put a peaked starter in the fridge, it has already eaten most of its food and will get hungry quite soon.

Yayyyy! Established starters!

A question when you have some time...nothing urgent.

When I remove the starter from the refrigerator to use, I first feed it and then do I stir it back down and take from that for the bread or do I take from the risen part of the starter?
I've wondered this when I've fed it all along also...whether to stir it up and then remove some as I've been doing or remove only from the top?

Judith Browning wrote:A question when you have some time...nothing urgent.
When I remove the starter from the refrigerator to use, I first feed it and then do I stir it back down and take from that for the bread or do I take from the risen part of the starter?

When you take it from the refrigerator, you would want to feed it a couple of times in room temperature before using it for baking to get rid of the cold sluggishness.

When you want to bake with the starter (mix your dough) the best timing would be when it has peaked (and started falling), that's the time when the culture is at it's strongest. At that point the whole starter would have risen.  

So basicly you would have to plan your feeding on your baking schedule.
For example you can use the 1:1:1 feed and mix the dough about 4 hours later when the starter has peaked or you can do the 1:5:5 feed the evening before if you plan on baking the next day.

I usually feed the starter for about the amount I will need for baking. One 500g loaf wants about 100g of starter so I would feed

10 grams of starter with 50 grams of water and flour the evening before
to end up with 110 grams of starter.
In the morning I would take the 100 grams I need for the dough
and feed the 10 grams that's left with another 50 grams of water and flour.

whether to stir it up and then remove some as I've been doing or remove only from the top?

So you have been taking excess starter out from the jar and feeding water and flour to what's left, right?
I don't really think it matters if you mix it or just remove from the top. If there's hooch on top I think mixing it in would be wise.

Although your hooch line has been in the middle mostly? Out of curiosity, when you feed the starter, do you first mix the starter with water in to a milky consistensy or do you add water and flour at the same time and mix them both in?

I hope I have answered your questions. Please do say if I missed something.

So you have been taking excess starter out from the jar and feeding water and flour to what's left, right?
I don't really think it matters if you mix it or just remove from the top. If there's hooch on top I think mixing it in would be wise.

Although your hooch line has been in the middle mostly? Out of curiosity, when you feed the starter, do you first mix the starter with water in to a milky consistensy or do you add water and flour at the same time and mix them both in?

Thank you!
Before feeding, I've been stirring the risen starter with my chopstick and then removing the amount to feed from that jar to a new jar each time...and then addiing the water, mixing and then adding the flour and again mixing.  I happen to have a lot of widemouth pint jars so it was just as easy to start with a clean jar each feed.

Now that it's stored in the refrigerator how should I cover the jar? A loose lid?

I'm really excited to have a good starter...thank you so much for walking us through the process and answering questions!

Judith Browning wrote:
Thank you!
Before feeding, I've been stirring the risen starter with my chopstick and then removing the amount to feed from that jar to a new jar each time...

Oh okay, I think I’m back on the map! When you have been feeding the starter every 12 hours it has been all up and bubbly when you have fed it again?

So at this point you can feed the starter every 24 hours. At that point it should have risen and fallen back down.

Now that it's stored in the refrigerator how should I cover the jar? A loose lid?

Yes, a loose lid is good. It will bubble in the cold really slowly but tight lid would bring a small explosion.

I'm really excited to have a good starter...thank you so much for walking us through the process and answering questions!

It has been a pleasure, thank you for joining! All the questions asked have made this thread so much better.

Just checking in wondering how other's starters are doing?

I'm really happy with mine!
Have been practicing making crackers from recipes found elsewhere here and just got a 25# bag of hard red wheat berries and one of rye so have been grinding a bit of flour and have a winter to play.

Just for fun I divided my starter this morning and fed one jar with rye flour and one with soft wheat as usual...will switch from soft to hard wheat soon.

Sourdough crackers are bagged for todays hike.

Thank you again Saana...I tease my baker son that I had to learn to make a good starter from someone from Finland.

Hey guys, I'm doing the tooth diet and they say sourdough is ok to eat because the grain has been fermented to remove the phytic acid. However most recipes I've found involve adding fresh flour to the starter before baking. Doesn't that defeat the purpose?

Almond Thompson wrote:Hey guys, I'm doing the tooth diet and they say sourdough is ok to eat because the grain has been fermented to remove the phytic acid. However most recipes I've found involve adding fresh flour to the starter before baking. Doesn't that defeat the purpose?

What I do is stretch out my rising time, allowing the yeast to eat more of it before baking. I will do anywhere from 3 hours to 3 days. BUT!! That means you don't get the lovely high loaf most people want. I like a dense loaf, so it's not an issue for me.
To do it, I mix in my flour etc, then let it sit a bit before kneading. Then knead it, and let it rise, punch it down, knead it again, let the yeast reach as much as it can. Rise again, knead again if you want, drag it out. Like I said, I'll put hours or days in there. It changes the flavor, changes the density, but REALLY changes how much of it is broken down, both the phytic acid and the complex proteins that are hard for some folks to digest.

So it depends on what you want.
If you really like a high loaf, you might try putting 1/2 - 2/3 of your flour in, let it sit and bubble, then do the other part, as at least MOST of it will have breakdown time.

One of the interesting things about bread is the whole "white flour, fine density, high loaf" bit is not historical at all. Most bread people ate was made closer to how I do it, and the wheat was different type (including higher protein) and it was gathered into shocks and fermentation started on it in the fields. Modern wheat types and fast harvest techniques lead to a lot of people not being able to digest it, and blaming gluten for the problem, when what we call bread is not what our ancestors ate.

Pearl Sutton wrote:One of the interesting things about bread is the whole "white flour, fine density, high loaf" bit is not historical at all. Most bread people ate was made closer to how I do it, and the wheat was different type (including higher protein) and it was gathered into shocks and fermentation started on it in the fields. Modern wheat types and fast harvest techniques lead to a lot of people not being able to digest it, and blaming gluten for the problem, when what we call bread is not what our ancestors ate.

The wheat we're growing is much different - just like we've chosen characteristics in fruit and veg that are designed for Industrial farming and shipping (think Iceberg lettuce), the same is true of wheat. The way we grow and harvest it is much different. The way we grind it - high speed mechanical that's likely to heat the wheat changing it's nutrition. And lastly, the way we bake it.

Yes, nutritious bread is usually allowed to rise for much longer than we normally give it time for. Commercial bread is worse than most homemade, but for example, my bread machine entire cycle is only 2 hours and 20 minutes. I should consider if there's a longer cycle, but I'm using the one the seller told me to use... hmmm... maybe that's not the best idea. In comparison, my no-kneed sourdough normally gets 10 to 12 hours to rise.

Historically, the flour would have had the wheat germ still in it - in Canada, I have to add it back in when I'm mixing up my bread, and I store the wheat germ in the freezer.

Judith Browning wrote:Just checking in wondering how other's starters are doing?

I'm really happy with mine!
Have been practicing making crackers from recipes found elsewhere here and just got a 25# bag of hard red wheat berries and one of rye so have been grinding a bit of flour and have a winter to play.

Just for fun I divided my starter this morning and fed one jar with rye flour and one with soft wheat as usual...will switch from soft to hard wheat soon.

Sourdough crackers are bagged for todays hike.

Thank you again Saana...I tease my baker son that I had to learn to make a good starter from someone from Finland.

Ooh sourdough crackers, I used to make those.. They are addictive! I'm glad you're happy with your starter!

Almond Thompson wrote:Hey guys, I'm doing the tooth diet and they say sourdough is ok to eat because the grain has been fermented to remove the phytic acid. However most recipes I've found involve adding fresh flour to the starter before baking. Doesn't that defeat the purpose?

All the sourdough bread recipes I use ferment for at least 24 hours (I mix the dough in the morning and bake the bread the next morning or later). I wonder if it's long enough?

.

How are your starters, everyone? Baked anything?

In the SKIP program the is a BB for making two loaves of bread! and if you are in to fermenting other stuff too, you can incorporate your sourdough starter into the Ferment Four Different Things (One Gallon). It does require some time adding up to a gallon of used starter but it's possible!

I'm *FINALLY* ready to start my starter,  this evening... I'll be using organic sprouted wheat.

Im a bit late to this party, but very much enjoying the new experience!

Ive never actually made sourdough from scratch myself, let alone the starter.  This thread has made it very easy to give it a try.  Thanks for doing this Saana!

Im about a week in now, and didn't really get into documenting every day, but I did decide to take a few photos from today.  I initially started with an organic wheat flour "type 480" for the first few days, then my wife pointed out that this may actually be a less ideal flour to use for sourdough breads.  I then switched to another higher number option we had in the kitchen "type 1100", except later I found out that instead of wheat, it is spelt.  

Initially I also made the mistake of not mixing the new starter with water before adding more flour each day.  Instead I would add starter, water, and flour and mix it all together at once.  Now the starter and water get mixed before adding the flour.

I have not yet noticed any "Hooch" development, but there are definitely bubbles finally starting to form!  Although not nearly as much as some of the previous people have shared.  Im thinking that maybe my mix might be slightly too wet, even though i've been measuring with a scale to the exact gram on the proportions.  

Another thing for us is that the home we are living in is on the cooler side - below the ideal temperatures you mentioned for making the starter.  It been at around 18C (64.4F) This might be another reason why it is taking a bit longer..?

So, im making mistakes, and learning along the way.  Ill keep practicing, and observing, and hopefully soon will be able to make that first loaf!  Once that happens its off to documenting the successes, and going after the first Badge Bit!    

I am wondering about other types of flours for future experiments. I once made a Hawaiian style "Pa'i 'ai" from cooked and mashed Taro, and after being stored in a bag for almost a week it had a very distinctive sourdough taste and smell to it. More recently I sun dried and powdered some taro corms that i grew, and now have a flour to play with. Maybe it could be worthwhile to try it out in a sourdough recipe somehow?  

Saana Jalimauchi wrote:How are your starters, everyone? Baked anything?

In the SKIP program the is a BB for making two loaves of bread! and if you are in to fermenting other stuff too, you can incorporate your sourdough starter into the Ferment Four Different Things (One Gallon). It does require some time adding up to a gallon of used starter but it's possible!

Hi Saana!
I have been baking a lot with my starter!
And the bread is getting better and better.
Have been using only whole grains freshly ground by us so the bread is somewhat dense and very flavorful with those few ingredients, flour, water, starter and salt.

My challenge is what to bake in as my oven is small and electric.
Am missing the old wood cook stove for this and envy your lovely oven.

And Steve made me this wonderful scraper!
Here's a picture of this mornings dough after bringing it in from the cold room...

Judith Browning wrote:And Steve made me this wonderful scraper!

Wow, that is a lovely scraper! Please tell Steve I admire it. A simple, but practical tool.

Three weeks.  

Thats how long it took for me to get a rise out of my starter.  But it finally happened!!  

A week ago i was ready to give up and wait until spring when the temperatures in the house would get warmer.  The starter at this time wasn't really doing much. I was following the recipe almost exactly, except for the temperature, which has consistently been around 60 F. The starter was definitely smelling like sourdough, and had small bubbles here and there, but i just wasn't getting any rise out of it.

So then i made a regular loaf of bread, and threw in the excess starter material that has been accumulating in the frog in order to use it up. By this point I had already used up a whole bag of flour just on trying to make the dang starter.  After taking the bread out, and feeling the warmth of the oven, i thought that maybe i should start putting the starter in there.  So every 12 hours i would slightly warm up the oven, then turn it off, just to get a warmer environment for at least a brief period of time.  I did this for a few days, and noticed that starter was getting worse!  No more bubbles.  Less of the sourdough smell.  Huh?!!  What the hell!  

At this point I was told by a relative that I should just add a little bit of the store bought yeast to get it going.  This, to me, felt like cheating. Thats not what our ancestors did, is it?  The last thing im looking for in a permaculture lifestyle is to have dependence on commercial products.  

So then i started looking at some of the other sourdough threads on permies and ended up with a realization. A similar answer was already given in this thread  here, but i missed it.  

If there is no rise or activity, then go back to every 24 hours.  

But instead of every 24 hours, I decided to do every 48 hours.  It was day 3 that I finally got the rise I was looking for!!  And the temperature of the house has gotten even colder! Down to about 58 F.  I guess the temperature isn't that important!?  

Another thing I did was I added about 3-5 g of warm raw milk with the 50g of water (about 45g water + 5g milk).  I was reading online that this can have a beneficial effect, and maybe this actually helped?  

Ill be letting the starter go another 36-48 hours, depending on when the drop occurs after the rise.  Hopefully soon we will finally have our very first loaf of sourdough bread.  

Including some photos of a delicious recipe my wife came up with to use up the discarded sourdough starter.  

The sourdough discard was mixed with finely chopped leeks, a little bit of salt, a little bit of taro flour, and had a little bit of liquid whey added to create the right consistency. This was then poured onto a medium-hot (about 7/10) pan with ghee.  Pan fried until slightly golden on one side, then flipped over to do the same on the other side.  Then the flatbread like creation was put aside, and 2-3 eggs were added to the pan, scrambled, and evenly spread out.  While the eggs quickly cooked, the flatbread was added on top.  Once cooked it was folder over like a burrito.

Delicious!  We have been making these for breakfast regularly, and playing with different ingredients to include in the wrap.

So, hopefully this offers some inspiration to those who are also coming into this for the first time.  

So sorry I haven't been around replying you guys earlier. I've been super busy!

Judith, yay for tasty bread! It is amazing what one can achieve with just water, flour and salt! Oh and that bench scraper is so beautiful.

Arthur, yayy for not giving up and troubleshooting to make it work! The cold indeed makes the starter work slower, thus it needing food less frequently.
That flatbread looks yummy. I've been mostly frying pancakes and baking cakes with the discard, although..

I have really been neglecting my starter in the few last weeks. I don't know if it's still alive. They are quite resilient but we'll see.. I might take a picture of it and report back if it comes back to life. If not, I still have some dried starter left to rehydrate.

I've done this method before: https://ourgabledhome.com/easy-sourdough-starter-no-feedings-no-discards/

But then I was watching the Townsends Youtube channel and tried to make a "sour" loaf using rye and white flour and just letting the natural yeasts in the air work and it did great. I place the small loaves next to the wood stove and let them rise. They show it here in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J1PNDnqsfA

Then I saw this which really kind of made the most sense to me although it's not the only way to make a yeasty starter and I also tried it out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GR8FR9zfdEU

I'm not a very "bready" person anyway but my husband is. But I just make any loaf, like the sour loaf, and then take a chunk off and keep it for the next loaf. That's the leavening and I don't have to worry about keeping a sourdough starter going. I also dehydrate my leavening and can keep it for months and it still works fine.

One of those small sour loaves is plenty of bread for two for a meal. No yeast, no starter (although now I often add a bit of my leavening) and less work for me. I'll make three or four at a time and the baking is done for half the week.

This has inspired me to make sourdough now! I have had homemade before and nothing beats it!

What a great thread; it has inspired me to do a quick project tonight.

There is a wonderful resource for 100% rye sourdough baking. Check out Shannon Stronger's homestead blog and ebooks Nourishing Days. Very reasonably priced. It takes practice, but I used to get amazing results with her methods.