we have a new website, tell us what you think!

***update***

Thank you all for your support and suggestions for our new website https://gardenmastercourse.com

We have implemented many changes based on your insights, but we need more!   Please take a look at our new and improved website and let us know what still sucks - or tell us it's perfect and wants for nothing.  

We eagerly await your feedback!!

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Paul's minions have been hard at work putting together a website for the garden master course videos!

However, we think that you can help us make it even better!

So please, go to https://gardenmastercourse.com and let us know what sucks and what works!  

Your suggestions could make it to the live page and make a huge difference in our quest for world domination through permaculture.

Grow Beyond Organic...
Hard to read on busy background.  The background on the text isn't helping this time, although it usually does.

What if fade the picture with less contrast then make the text dark?  I don't know if it would be better or no.

Same problem with It's not always...

Could not load http://woodleaffarm.com/ on my tablet because

The connection to woodleaffarm.com is not secure

You are seeing this warning because this site does not support HTTPS. Learn more

Thank you r ranson!  These are on my list!!

The "Buy Now for $89.50" button is not working.

Images can do better with alt attributes.

The mobile site looks good although this one part kinda hurts my brain. The colours go wonky on the word ”comprehensive”. I don’t know if it’s just me.

Could a different font be used for the titles or just more spacing between the letters? I find it harder to read when they run together.

Great site!  

I am wondering if there is a way to 'un-blurry' the Garden Master Bundle price block photo.  

Also, there is a funny symbol next to the apostrophe in you'll, where it says, "In this 150-page guide you’ll find a syllabus", but maybe it is temporary?  I copy and pasted and it went away....

In Helen's biography, it says "and natural enemiesi habitat"-but it may just be misspelled...I am not a cool gardener and that may be a thing...enemiesi.

Lastly, Gardening in Montana in February ought to be interesting...how will that work, exactly?

Thank you for this new website!  Very fun!

The bullet points under "The benefits of a comprehensive online master gardener course
without the commitment!" are off to the right on my phone. Everything is still visible on the page, though.

I would have a button up at top to go to next year's tickets.

Here are my comments before reading the other responses:
  - Something about the colors of the fonts and background in the teal area at the top is not jiving with my eyeballs.  Both the title and the white text.  Makes the font a bit soft around the edges and hard to read.
  - "use of pesticides with warning labels, which..." might roll off the tongue better if it was changed to "use of pesticides that have warning labels, which...
  - Grow beyond organic section - The black font is too small and the background too busy to read easily.  Maybe make that section twice as tall, move the font up so it's entirely in the space above the growies and bump the font up a size or two?
  - Might help to put quotes around "beyond organic".  Or capitalize it.  Or something so that it sounds like a brand.  Otherwise in a sentence it just kinda seems like klunky English.  
  - I'd shave this sentence down to be less klunky: "veganic, no-till, and permaculture gardening knowledge and skills." into "veganic, no-till permaculture gardening skills."
  - The orange font is jarring against it's background
  - The orange font says "master gardener", I'm guessing that's deliberate?
  - Cut down this sentence: "With this exclusive access to premiere garden master courses, you get all the benefits of expert instruction, but with the flexibility of watching the lessons of this Online Garden Master Course on your own timeframe."
  - I think this word is out of place: "With our Garden Master Course online, watch..." to "With our online Garden Master Course, watch..."
  - Something's messed up in Helen's bio: "does soil- and natural enemies’ habitat- building research".  Where it says enemies' here, there's a weird character along with the ' online.
  - Same funky ' character in the $19.50 section
  - At the very bottom left is says Organic Garden Master Certificate Course.  Is there a certificate with this offer?  Oh, wait, I think that's if you attend in person in Feb 2024.  Never mind.  Unless other people have the same confusion.

I think the black font is almost always easier to read against anything but a dark green (or other dark) background.  So I'd use less white text.

Bonus: Do a meme of this with him shying away from Master Gardener and loving Garden Master:

A few things kinda stand out to me.

The image behind "Grow Beyond Organic" breaks up the smooth fade of the background and is the only image behind text on the page .

Helen's bio is in white, while her name is in yellow.

Helen's picture is always a circle with a white border. In full screen, Alan's is a circle with no border and Paul's is a circle with no border but both compress (at different rates) into ovals when the screen width is reduced.

The font of the headings feels a little comic sans, how do you feel about keep the same font and size but going unbolded?

The borders for "Master Guide", "Master Bundle" and "Master Course" are different sizes but symmetrical in full screen which works well but when reflowed for narrower screens the effect is a bit jarring.

Sorry for all of that, I'm not very good at aesthetics but I have done some coding and it makes me a bit picky.

All that being said, it's clear, easy to read and I think will work well.

See images...

It's not a bad page at all, it works, But I do agree with all the things everyone else said! The text over images isn't all that legible for me. The heading font letters tend to run together on my screen - maybe the kerning can be spaced a bit wider? There needs to be more contrast between text and background colours for easier reading.
Plus, I am so used to not seeing the buy now button till the end of the landing page, it feels strange seeing one so near the top. The text in the bios seems very small. And it seemed odd having the "Add the Garden Master Guide" section where it was, before the price for the course was even mentioned. I feel that should be lower down after the testimonials. I feel it would work better having similar boxes for the course alone, the book, then the course & book bundle.
To avoid frustrating people in countries where VAT/GST would be payable on a digital video product, maybe that could be mentioned in small print BEFORE they hit the button, not after? It's also a little jarring going from the landing page to a Permies page. Can there either be a mention that sales will be handled on Permies OR a specific Garden Master payment page set up? If people come to the Garden Master site who aren't familiar with Permies, the unexpected jump to a different site may make them click away at that stage and not buy.

Hey there goofballs!  Welcome to my rambling website testing narrative.

<ramble>
Overall, the layout is consistent between browsers.

In the 'Benefits' section, the black text on the blue background is a bit low contrast for these old eyes.  I'd lighten the blue a bit.

Under 'Instructors', while Paul has a link out to his TED talk, and Helen has her websites, Alan has nothing.  If folks don't know of Alan's awesomeness, I'd add a link for him as well.  Also, please make Helen's website links and Paul's inks the same color.

Links: I dunno if the links are supposed to be dialed in, but here are behaviors I figure I'll call out.
Midpage
1. "Add the Garden Master Guide"  button "Get Your Copy Now' pops up a 'free newsletter signup' pane.  I'd assume it would go to a buying channel.

Bottom of page:
2.  When not logged into permies, all Buy buttons at the bottom direct to Paypal...but if logged in they go different places.
3. When logged in, 'Garden Master Guide' goes to a permies buying channel.
4. When logged in, Garden Master Bundle section at the bottom, button "Buy now for $89.50" loads a new page of the garden master course, not a buying channel.
5. Can't test if the HD Streaming button, when logged in.  Permies recognized that I already bought it.  Woot!

I would consider adding a hamburger button to allow mobile users to move to the different sections, and because it is an expected pattern with younger users.  The page is short enough that it may not matter, but my experience with younger users is that they won't scroll a long page.

Texting the link gave a great popup image...love it.

On iPhone using all browsers:
Text under the "Benifits of a comprehensive course" has very uneven margins...the left margin is much larger than the right.
On iPad using all browsers: They are slightly off-center but nowhere near as bad

Checked across:
MacOS using Chrome, Firefox, and Safari
iPhone using Chrome, Firefox, and Safari
iPad using Brave, Chrome, Firefox, and Safari

</ramble>

I second the previous comments about legibility of text/fonts/contrast/backgrounds.
I'll add that the lighter "squircle" in the upper block bothers me (contains copy and "buy now" button) it ought to have a bottom margin at least as wide as the side margins, (immediately above the contentious "grow beyond organic..." text on the busy background)

I quickly skimmed Mike's suggestions for edits, they seem thorough.

The "grow beyond organic..." section and the artwork banner it is on top of, both seem superfluous. It's mostly said above, and later below in the "the benefits..." section, where one more line could be added instead, if necessary.

in paul's bio it says  he wrote a book, but now it's books. It also says rocket stoves instead of rocket mass heaters.

Great start guys! One thing I'd suggest that would help bring the look-and-feel together a bit more is to use a more reduced palette of colours. We love greens and blues, and yellow/orange is a great accent, but there are so many colours in this layout that it makes it hard to do appropriate, non-clashing text-over-background matches.

Here's some suggestions for you! You can also use accent colours to colourise images (e.g. this line drawing of Paul) to make them match the theme better!

The garden colour pallette was pulled from one of the images on the site already, so should provide a reasonable match for some of the existing photos, but the others may also be worth a shot. I've included suggested "Buy Now" button options as the current iteration is a bit harsh and also hard to read -- switching to a bold, sans-serif font should help a bit also!

The site kind of assumes you already know what a master gardener course is! I have only really heard about them because Paul has taken one and I supported the Kickstarter.  What does this course actually contain and what is each instructor is actually teaching?

In https://wheaton-labs.com/garden-master/, on iOS using Firefox, there is a goofy blank area between “about this course” and “event schedule “ with an odd character (see attached). This only happens in portrait, landscape looks fine.

I just took a look and it sounds amazing!
I always wanted to be a Master Gardener but I was disappointed after completing the education. My Master Gardener educators are very old school in the education and don't even know what permaculture is.
I'm a poor stay at home mom of 3 boys and for some reason all permaculture programs are very expensive. I can't afford any of the classes or programs offered by you and others. I appreciate that this is the most affordable thing I've seen. It's even cheaper then the Master Gardener program which costs $100 here.
While I appreciate that it's not very expensive, it would be cool if you offered scholarships for other programs. It's the poorest among us who will truly benefit from permaculture.
I know that every little bit helps me on my journey of creating an educational farm and seed company that accommodates the disabled community.
I'm definitely going to be saving up for this. I think it looks just what I'm looking for and maybe I could help update my fellow masters gardeners.
I can't wait. Thanks for this!

bree kime wrote:I just took a look and it sounds amazing!
I always wanted to be a Master Gardener but I was disappointed after completing the education. My Master Gardener educators are very old school in the education and don't even know what permaculture is.
I'm a poor stay at home mom of 3 boys and for some reason all permaculture programs are very expensive. I can't afford any of the classes or programs offered by you and others. I appreciate that this is the most affordable thing I've seen. It's even cheaper then the Master Gardener program which costs $100 here.
While I appreciate that it's not very expensive, it would be cool if you offered scholarships for other programs. It's the poorest among us who will truly benefit from permaculture.
I know that every little bit helps me on my journey of creating an educational farm and seed company that accommodates the disabled community.
I'm definitely going to be saving up for this. I think it looks just what I'm looking for and maybe I could help update my fellow masters gardeners.
I can't wait. Thanks for this!

We do have the worktrade program: Bootcamp Worktrade

bree kime wrote:I just took a look and it sounds amazing!
I always wanted to be a Master Gardener but I was disappointed after completing the education. My Master Gardener educators are very old school in the education and don't even know what permaculture is.
I'm a poor stay at home mom of 3 boys and for some reason all permaculture programs are very expensive. I can't afford any of the classes or programs offered by you and others. I appreciate that this is the most affordable thing I've seen. It's even cheaper then the Master Gardener program which costs $100 here.
While I appreciate that it's not very expensive, it would be cool if you offered scholarships for other programs. It's the poorest among us who will truly benefit from permaculture.
I know that every little bit helps me on my journey of creating an educational farm and seed company that accommodates the disabled community.
I'm definitely going to be saving up for this. I think it looks just what I'm looking for and maybe I could help update my fellow masters gardeners.
I can't wait. Thanks for this!

We also have a PDC/ATC course combo for $65 here at: https://permaculture-design-course.com/

I really enjoy this new website. Can the word and logo Kickstarter be removed from the youtube video image/insert? I think the video describes some things very well, but I can imagine being reluctant to watch given it seems to be (still) for the Kickstarter, rather than the program itself.

trailer is now up!

Jeff Bosch wrote:

bree kime wrote:I just took a look and it sounds amazing!
I always wanted to be a Master Gardener but I was disappointed after completing the education. My Master Gardener educators are very old school in the education and don't even know what permaculture is.
I'm a poor stay at home mom of 3 boys and for some reason all permaculture programs are very expensive. I can't afford any of the classes or programs offered by you and others. I appreciate that this is the most affordable thing I've seen. It's even cheaper then the Master Gardener program which costs $100 here.
While I appreciate that it's not very expensive, it would be cool if you offered scholarships for other programs. It's the poorest among us who will truly benefit from permaculture.
I know that every little bit helps me on my journey of creating an educational farm and seed company that accommodates the disabled community.
I'm definitely going to be saving up for this. I think it looks just what I'm looking for and maybe I could help update my fellow masters gardeners.
I can't wait. Thanks for this!

We do have the worktrade program: Bootcamp Worktrade

I'm sure it wasn't meant this way, but a call to work-trade in this situation assumes that the person unable to afford permaculture training is not working for an income already, or in Bree's case, it seems, as an unpaid caregiver.  

Either way, a person requiring sponsorship might be least likely able to afford to step away for months at a time from a life barely supporting them at present to work, without income, towards training that will require yet further time away pursuing it...Not to mention the consideration of childcare.  

Poverty doesn’t earn you more hours in a day.

Both the person lacking in funds and the person sufficiently remunerated (or sufficiently without life happenings, like illness, to support abundance) have time constraints.  But only one of them can pay for a course without stretching 24 hours in a day to 36 in a work-trade scheme.  It is often, as I’ve seen it, that the poorest have actually more time constraints, not less, and those niggling life-sucks, many times, are weighed by greater consequence, e.g., one day makes a 10x difference between survival or not for the poor than the rich, potentially.

I understand a scholarship model might not work for Wheaton Labs, but deep empathy and creative thinking that might enable someone to take steps towards improving their situation seems an apropos goal for a regenerative community.  

I’m down for that:  I am willing to donate to a scholarship fund with my next Kickstarter contribution (a kind of match donation)...or in some other creative way we think up.  

Very appealing video and copy.

Minor edits:

-In Helen's book blurb "u" is missing in the titular "Revolution."
-I believe the work-trade page for the 2024 course should reference a date in 2023 or 2024.  It has a date in 2021.

The very first paragraph on the page only works if you happen to be familiar with the availability of Master Gardener courses at extension services. And, even though I am very familiar with those courses, I had to go back and forth around the page and figure out this was being called Garden Master and that was different than Master Gardener and ...   you get the idea. The confusion over the terminology distracted from the main point of the page. My suggestion is to not make this a prominent, primary point of the page. If it is mentioned at all, make sure to preface the mention with a statement explaining Master Gardener courses.

I'm referring to this text right at the top:

Most Master Gardener courses offer in-depth botanical and cultivation knowledge, which is a plus. However, they also instruct the use of pesticides with warning labels, which may not be ideal for the gardener or the environment.

"...I no longer work for a university, so I can explore the limits of both organic and ecological thinking that I have explored over the last 40 years in my own farms..." - Helen Atthowe

Another thing I'm finding confusing because of the compare and contrast with Master Gardener courses is this. I think of Master Gardener courses as having a very heavy focus on landscaping using ornamental plants. This page seems to be all about produce and leaves me wondering why it is being compared to Master Gardener courses at all. The pages talks about what is different, but I can't tell what is similar. I think there must be real similarities because of Helen's extension service background, I just can't figure out what those are. My suggestion is to take another pass at all the copy on the page just to tweak it enough to be more clear about these things. As is, I'm confused about what this course is. I'm looking for the reason why I would take this over other vegetable gardening courses I see offered.


Adding a bit more...   Parts of the answer I'm craving are in Helen's statements near the end of the short video. The answer to why I would take this course over others has something to do with things she mentioned... research, systems thinking, etymology, pathology. I think these must be the things that are expected parts of a typical Master Gardener course. For me, they would be the reasons to take this course and I am right on the edge of excited about the course, just still confused and craving a very clear expression of these things.

Three things stick out as negatives I look at the site.
One is the photo in the first group with a person bent over in the midst of photos with no people in them. I would cut that and put in another pic with no person. Or a pic with a person turned towards the camera and produce in hand.
Then, the in person version of the course, is offered only at the very end of the site. The option to get the information and teaching in person should be presented at the beginning along with the virtual options. There are several options presented and they all should be presented at the start instead of the in person being an afterthought.
The first option is the workbook by itself which also seems like an odd placement. I actually read through the options mutiple times to try to make sense of what was being communicated.  The presentation seems confusing, kind of scrambled. It's all there just needs to be reorganized so it makes a sensible progression.

Has the background been disappeared? There are disparities between what I'm seeing and previously posted screenshots.

My observations:

I read somewhere that studies were done where folk were put into rooms painted green and white where a majority of folk observed reported feelings of nausea.

I've avoided vignetting that combination ever since and am instantly troubled when I see someone else do it. The good news is that I can't find reference to that study today for some bizarre reason. Yellow has the upchuck mantle these days apparently.

https://www.onlinepsychologydegree.info/psychology-color/

I does seem odd since nature likes to pair green with white albeit disproportionately.
It may just be a personal dislike but the green white vignettes and fades seem to be distracting from the story rather than adding to it.

- see attached screenshot

I know it is a bother but if the text is so uncomfortably formatted on the standard 1024 by 768 monitor I'm gazing through how does it look on a mobile device?

Split those columns out and dedicate a section to them each individually. The people will scroll! Believe me - It is known.

I'm not sure what is being achieved with the poorly margin spaced shadow box sections. They are a good effect but are they being used to emphasis a point appropriately?


Vignettes are a powerful tool draw the eye to a focus point. Like the laud said; Simplify thy eye!

https://truecenterpublishing.com/photopsy/vignetting.htm

I like to think of web-pages as a window into a room that you have decorated.
https://www.thedesignsheppard.com/interviews/colour-psychology-using-green-in-interiors

I'd describe this site a tad too two dimensional, it is like someone peeped in and you shoved a poster on the pain. There is a real depth of knowledge here to be illustrated!

https://morguefile.com/search?term=green+blur

Have you considered HUGO? lookit,it's Markup baby, Paul could rule all.

https://gohugo.io/

Final pinch of salt: Web design is not my background, just a hobby interest so if it not #bokeh don't fix it.

https://morguefile.com/p/1010702

Wishing you the best dominion in the world.

Aloha!

I took a look at the site on my android mobile using Chrome. I have a OnePlus 7. On my phone, some of the text spacing is not centered well or has almost no space on the left, which I don't think is intentional. (See screenshots.)

When I click on the "buy now" button, it takes me to the workbook first. My suggestion is to put the workbook option last (third) in the order of which buttons you see. Hopefully then the "buy now" button would take you to the combined course and workbook deal, then scrolling down you would see the course by itself offer, then the workbook by itself offer.

I agree that I would prefer to start with a description of what topics the course covers than how it got it's name. How it got it's name is a good story, but to me, it is not the most critical info about the course. About Our Course does a great job: https://wheaton-labs.com/garden-master/

This version of the story is so short that I feel like it misses some essential parts. If I wanted to start with the story of how it got it's name, I would make sure to include:
1) she taught a course funded through the university called the master gardener course for X years
2) the university forced her to teach stuff she didn't believe was good practice, such as detailed knowledge about the application of pesticides
3) she stopped teaching the university-tied course and started teaching this new course, which lets her teach the natural principles she has tested for so many years on her farms. She couldn't call it a master gardener course, so she called it a Garden Master course.

That might be too long? Maybe those elements of the story could be worded shorter? Something like:  "Helen taught a course called 'master gardener' through the university for X years, but they forced her to teach about practices she didn't want to encourage, such as pesticide use. She has quit the university, and she's thrilled to bring you the course she always wanted to be teaching: the 'Garden Master' course."

I still would want to have at least a short list of the main 8? topics that the course covers.

If both of those are too long, just a list of the main 8? topics, and that Helen has X number of years teaching gardening and Y number of years running farms, would work well in my opinion.

Anything I wrote above probably needs to be checked for accuracy, I'm going off memory here on the story of how the course got it's name. Plus I don't have a lot of experience at... uh, wording. The words might need to be... better.

I must be square in the center of the target audience. I'm a crusty old, opinionated IT guy that has been criticizing web pages since before there was an Internet, and I found nothing to dislike. In fact, I was so sold that I bought the course! I think you folks did an excellent job and that this is suitable to release.

The link to Helen’s website is either incorrect or the site is no longer? It goes to a url that is for sale: http://woodleaffarm.com/

EDIT - the link above was found on the https://wheaton-labs.com/garden-master/ page, which is where the attend the 2024 course link take you.
It is corrected on the garden master course web page.  

Lee Cason wrote:I must be square in the center of the target audience. I'm a crusty old, opinionated IT guy that has been criticizing web pages since before there was an Internet, and I found nothing to dislike. In fact, I was so sold that I bought the course! I think you folks did an excellent job and that this is suitable to release.

I'd have to agree. Didn't see prior versions, but the current one seems very manageable to the senses. I recently got back on a regular computer after not having one for 10 years, so the internet experience has obviously changed. But I like this. Simple, not a lot of visual garbage. Not a lot of distraction. A+ I say!

Hi! Newbie here.

Just checked the website and here's my opinion.
Personal preferences:
-I wouldn't underline the main title ("Garden Master Course"). It is already big, right at the beginning, so underlining it is, I believe, unnecessary. Also, it gave me the wrong impression that it is a link, usually links are underlined and I tried to click it, and I doubt I'll be the only one doing that. Still, if you want to make it stand out though, I would use something like a frame maybe? Or would put below it a simple line with some leaves on it, I think that would look cool.
-The whole website has two fonts that it uses. Then, at the end, "Check out more cool content:" is with a different font from all the others. I understand you want it to stand out a bit, but I don't think it's necessary. I believe that, unless it's a careful selection with a clear and specific reason, one should usually strive to have the same fonts throughout the website - in the name of consistency.
-I really loved the pictures beside Helen Atthowe, could you do the same for Paul Wheaton and Alan Booker?

What really needs fixing:
-Please try to make the boxes for the instructors the same size. Also, their pictures are not aligned, try to center them so that they seem equal!
-Try to align the texts, some boxes are longer than others.
-The five stars from students should be centred too, they are glued to the left side of the boxes and doesn't look good.

Besides these small corrections, I think it's good! You guys did a good job - I'm very picky so don't feel bad. Hope my small corrections help!
Cheers