Minimal diet = deficiencies

Todd Parr wrote:

Neil Layton wrote:The only exception is B12 which, as I've already pointed out, is stored by and available from animal foods, but is formed only by the activity of yeasts and bacteria.

B12 is the one that is being talked about extensively in this thread, and you have already said that you have to supplement it because you are a vegetarian. You also keep pointing out that it is only formed by the activity of yeasts and bacteria. I don't understand why that matters. The simple matter is there is no practical way for a human to get enough B12 without eating animal products. Whether it is formed by bacteria, yeast, or a fairy godmother, if the only way I can get it is by eating meat or supplementing, then there is no valid vegetarian answer.

Todd: no, I said that's what I am doing, out of what is largely laziness on my part. I didn't say that's what you have to do. We could go through the reasons why fermented foods are relatively rare in diets in the Global North if you wish, but it would be off topic.

There is an issue with identifying which fermented foods provide sufficient B12, which is not something I've looked into in detail, but please do not expect me to investigate everything around here. I'll get to it. I have a list. This is on it. It's a long list.

i've had b12 issues as well. i've experienced cognitive problems, weird physical sensations, and depression. i think tempeh is a cultured or fermented product that provides b12. i started making my own tempeh because it's so expensive but the ingredients are super cheap. basically you cook the beans, ad the culture and keep it nice & warm for a couple of days. it makes me thing of blue cheese the way the mycelium () grow. traditionally made with soybeans (which loose their issues when fermented) but many cheaper beans can be used. let me know if you're interested and i'll post linkes to info.

Neil Layton wrote:but please do not expect me to investigate everything around here. I'll get to it. I have a list. This is on it. It's a long list.

I don't expect you to investigate anything, my friend. We disagree on the vegetarian diet, and that is okay. I still read your threads and appreciate your inputs. The B12 thing is a non-issue for me because, tree-hugging animal-lover that I am, I decided long ago that I am content with the idea that humans are omnivores and that we evolved to be so. I'm just putting my thoughts out there in case they help Tyler with this issue.

Todd Parr wrote:

Neil Layton wrote:but please do not expect me to investigate everything around here. I'll get to it. I have a list. This is on it. It's a long list.

I don't expect you to investigate anything, my friend. We disagree on the vegetarian diet, and that is okay. I still read your threads and appreciate your inputs. The B12 thing is a non-issue for me because, tree-hugging animal-lover that I am, I decided long ago that I am content with the idea that humans are omnivores and that we evolved to be so. I'm just putting my thoughts out there in case they help Tyler with this issue.

Actually, I don't have an issue with the notion that physiologically humans can eat meat. That's a distraction from the issue. It's the standard red herring.

What I have an issue with is the implications about hierarchy and exploitation that stem from humans eating meat (not relevant to this discussion) and the sustainability implications of 7.4 billion humans eating meat, which is entirely germane to this conversation. That's one reason why we talk about frugality. I had the impression it's one reason Tyler is trying to steer away from eating meat.

kayla garelick wrote:i've had b12 issues as well. i've experienced cognitive problems, weird physical sensations, and depression. i think tempeh is a cultured or fermented product that provides b12. i started making my own tempeh because it's so expensive but the ingredients are super cheap. basically you cook the beans, ad the culture and keep it nice & warm for a couple of days. it makes me thing of blue cheese the way the mycelium () grow. traditionally made with soybeans (which loose their issues when fermented) but many cheaper beans can be used. let me know if you're interested and i'll post linkes to info.

The problem is that neither Rhizopus oligosporus nor Rhizopus oryzae synthesise vitamin B12. Many tested samples of tempeh do contain quite high concentrations of vitamin B12, but this is thought to be the result of contamination by Klebsiella pneumoniae or Citrobacter freundii, both of which are basically harmless, but a) these may not be present in the kinds of sterile cultures used in the Global North and b) the B12 may not be in a bioavailable form (and may even interfere with the uptake of bioavailable B12).

There are loads of good reasons to eat tempeh, but please don't rely on it for your B12 requirements.

What an amazing discussion this thread is. I can't keep up with it all, but I try.

I was just reading through a post primarily about B vitamins, and remember something I like to keep in mind about the Bs. They are water soluble, and when a person is experiencing "stress" (good or bad, wedding birth death vacation divorce etc) the body consumes vitamin B in metabolic pathways in a larger amount.

When ever I think I might be getting sick, I take "stress-B" at about 6 times the RDA (which is an arbitrary number as has been pointed out) and keep taking it until I can smell B vitamins coming through in my urine. Then I back off, taking double the RDA about 2x/day, making sure I can still smell it in my urine.

I think of it as a "loading dose". I want to be sure that right away there is plenty available.

I don't know if this applies to B 12 or not, but the experience of discovering your home grown high quality food that you have worked so hard to produce is not adequate to your needs can be a stress inducing experience.

Someone has mentioned Steve Solomon's experience, and I want to reiterate the value of the story. He tells it in his book "the intelligent gardener" , and how he accidentally discovered that his health issues were due to soil deficiencies.

There is mention of health as connected to the soil one is fed from in Weston A Price's book, as well as a book written ~ the late 40s, early 50s. The title is "Soil Grass, Cancer" which also talks about status of the soil and health of the populations of humans eating from that soil, whether vegetarian or not.

It's a big issue, I gess that's why we're having such a thorough discussion. Here's hoping we're all better off as a result, and our soils healthier. And thank you, Tyler for starting it, and thanks to the one who put it in the daily-ish!

thanks Neil for sharing the correct information about tempeh not reliably providing b12. fortunately i've been receiving shots for the deficiency. which i probably got into because i thought my diet was complete. or at least pretty good. i think it's important to find out as much as we can. sorry i really didn't mean to spread bad info!

Neil Layton wrote:
What I have an issue with is the implications about hierarchy and exploitation that stem from humans eating meat (not relevant to this discussion) and the sustainability implications of 7.4 billion humans eating meat, which is entirely germane to this conversation. That's one reason why we talk about frugality. I had the impression it's one reason Tyler is trying to steer away from eating meat.

Yes, my reasons for avoiding "dead animals from the store" are - concern for the animals, concern about the ecological cost of their production (even under so-called "sustainable" practices, as we've discussed in other threads), and the fact that animal products from the store are relatively expensive.

Neil, you really do contribute an amazing amount of knowledge on here!

Thekla, yes, the story of how Steve ruined his health while growing all his own food on depleted land is a good cautionary tale.

Bryant RedHawk wrote:

Neil Layton wrote:

Bryant RedHawk wrote:
The idea that the human species was meant to eat only vegetables is false because of the bodies needs for items only found in meat and other animal products.

Please could you name one [EDIT]:, or better yet all of them, so we know what we need?

5 important brain nutrients only found in animal foods

1. Vitamin B12
A deficiency is widespread among vegans and vegetarians, who avoid these foods. In one study, a whopping 92% of vegans and 47% of vegetarians were deficient in this critical brain nutrient
Being deficient in B12 can cause irreversible damage to the brain. If your levels are just slightly lower than they should be, you may have symptoms like poor memory, depression and fatigue

B12 is produced by bacteria, not animals. B12 deficiency is present even in red meat eaters.

Bryant RedHawk wrote:
2. Creatine
Scientific studies consistently show that creatine supplementation can increase muscle mass and strength
Creatine is actually not an essential nutrient, because the liver can produce it out of other amino acids. However, this conversion process appears to be inefficient.
Vegetarians who take creatine supplements see improvements in cognitive performance, especially in more complex tasks, while there is no difference in non-vegetarians

Not a required substance. 20% of individuals are non-respondants to creatine supplementation. Creatine is found mostly in red meats.

Bryant RedHawk wrote:
3. Vitamin D3
Vitamin D is produced out of cholesterol in the skin when it is exposed to ultraviolet rays from the sun.
D2 comes from plants, D3 from animals. Studies show that D3 is much more effective than the plant form
A deficiency in Vitamin D is linked to all sorts of diseases, including cardiovascular disease and cancer.

All you have to do is get sunlight. You can even use a UV bulb.

Bryant RedHawk wrote:
4. Carnosine
It is strictly found in animal tissues, meaning that vegans and vegetarians aren’t getting much, if any, from the diet
This substance is very protective against various degenerative processes in the body.
It is a potent antioxidant, inhibits glycation caused by elevated blood sugars and may prevent cross-linking of proteins

Carnosine is not an essential amino acid.

Bryant RedHawk wrote:
5. Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA)
Everyone concerned with nutrition knows that Omega-3 fatty acids are extremely important.
The human body can not make them, therefore we must get them from the diet.
This is why Omega-3s (and Omega-6s) are termed “essential” fatty acids – if we don’t eat them, we get sick.
There are two active forms of Omega-3s in the body, EPA and DHA.
DHA is the most abundant Omega-3 fatty acid in the brain and it is critical for normal brain development
Many people who avoid animal products supplement with flax seed oil instead, which is a great source of ALA… a plant form of Omega-3.
However, ALA needs to be converted to DHA for it to work. Studies show that this conversion process is notoriously ineffective in humans

I suspect a large portion of DHA deficiency is due to poor Omega 3 and 6 ratios.

"Horticultural, pastoral, and hunter-gatherer societies did better as far as nutrition, at least as far as I can tell."

I totally agree Gilbert! How do we mimic it in our own diets? I think a good start is:

-I think an important component is to get as much as you can from varied, non traditional staples foods--both and foraged. Components I've been think of (many echoing what others have said) are:

-"Weeds" and foraged greens! Those weedy greens in everyone's garden and in abandoned placeslike chickweed, nettle, purslane, lambs quarters, etc are SO much higher in nutrition than lettuce greens from a traditional garden row. I've had a small space to grow my food for a number of years and I still can't keep up with the chickweed, and a couple local hikes get me nettle soup, a years supply of nettle tea, chickweed and miners lettuce salads, and more. Add that to plenty of Kale, arugula, spinach, etc and eating it all often. Huge boost to nutrition.

-Fruit, nuts, and berries from both forest garden and foraged in neighborhoods and forests

-mushrooms, knowledgeably and responsibly foraged when possible, otherwise cultivated onsite

-perennial vegetables are also a way to mix it up and add nutritional diversity. Toenmeyer's book (probably botched that spelling) is great on Perennial vegetables.

-sprouting seeds/micro-greens, fermenting sauerkraut, combucha, nut milk yogurt

-hunting/fishing if feasible.

-prioritizing raw, fresh, in season. Drying and root cellaring when possible as preferred methods when storing stuff for winter

-grown and foraged herbs. For example, I found out I was likely deficient in Calcium so now I forage and make tea with horsetail, nettle, and oat straw. A quart mason jar of tea a day is easy to drink. Not sure how much of the daily value it gives me, but symptoms are way better. I need to research more specifics though.

I do admit, being a small female makes it easier to get more of my caloric intake from lots of kale and mushrooms and stuff. My husband is harder to fill up without the usual staples like potatoes and rice unless we've got a lot of meat for dinner, but he can still get a lot of calories from the types of food listed above. If nothing else, it's a good start.

The above post of course speaks more to the general nutrition question than it does to the B12 specifically, but I felt like tying all those thoughts together for the general nutrition view (I just found the whole thread today, so I'm lagging behind a bit!). Great thread! It's helping me wrap my head around my own nutrition planning for my food growing!

Hi Everyone,

I haven't read everyones posts so my apologies if I double up on information.

I did some quick research and it would seem that seaweed, specifically dried purple laver (nori) is high in Vitamin B12.

This is the title of the article that I read

Studies from Tottori University in the Area of Nutrient Research Reported (Vitamin B??-containing plant food sources for vegetarians)

ref Life Science Weekly. (July 22, 2014): p3500.

Do check the source as to where the seaweed is harvested from eg don't buy seaweed harvested from around Japan due to the radiation leakages. Australian or New Zealand oceans are cleaner so harvested from those areas should be safe. You don't have to buy it in sheets for sushi, you can buy it in a powdered form that can be added to your meals.

There was another article that came up stating that the addition of cow dung to your soils (not a one off but continuous) will build up the B Vitamins within the soil improving it and allowing the plants to pick up this vitamin for their use and your eating.

Mozafar, A. 1994. Plant and Soil. "Enrichment of some B-vitamins in plants with application of organic fertilizers". Volume 167; Issue 2; Pages 305-311. KLUWER ACADEMIC PUBL.

The above article is available on Web of Science.

I hope this helps.

The native people, which have since moved or died out, from the area where I live used to eat fish, shellfish, snail, and turtle, in addition to birds (think pelican and sandhill crane). All of their settlements that have ever been found were on the rivers. We know their diet because they would make midden piles, also called shell mounds, which are also where they buried their dead. It is unknown if they are much in the way of fruit or vegetables, but it is suspected that they ate some like Arrowroot, cattail, beauty berry, pepper berry, and others.
That being said, if you were trying to 100% it then I would for sure consider growing freshwater clam in an aquaponics system. As a side, the pearls are beautiful. I am going to be doing this as soon as I find a source for sale. Project, anyone?
Also, I take an iron supplement and a magnesium supplement and I don't feel bad about it at all. My whole body has improved from the magnesium, the iron is so I will be able to donate blood.

I have a question about B12 .
Cows and Sheep etc are all fully paid up long term members of the vegan club. Yet they don't have marmite on toast like Niel and I nor do they pop down to Walmart /Asda for supplements nor do they eat much seaweed ( apart from a noteworthy scotttish exception ). So where do they get there B12 from if they cannot metabolize it ? Gut Bactria ?

David

David, those herbivores can synthesize the b vitamins, provided they are not sick and are receiving adequate protein and vitamins.

I hear what you are saying Chrissy but I think you may be mistaken about B12 see earlier posts on this topic
David

chrissy bauman wrote:
That being said, if you were trying to 100% it then I would for sure consider growing freshwater clam in an aquaponics system. As a side, the pearls are beautiful. I am going to be doing this as soon as I find a source for sale. Project, anyone?

I looked into this a couple years ago and even got some clams (actually mussels) from a lake, but they died. Clams are particular about conditions, and their lifecycle is probably too complicated to emulate in aquaponics - part of their lives are spent inside fish.

http://molluskconservation.org/MUSSELS/Reproduction.html

I was looking into other down-the-food-chain sources of B12 and was hopeful about that favorite enemy the garden snail, but sadly they are very low in B12.

David Livingston wrote:I have a question about B12 .
Cows and Sheep etc are all fully paid up long term members of the vegan club. Yet they don't have marmite on toast like Niel and I nor do they pop down to Walmart /Asda for supplements nor do they eat much seaweed ( apart from a noteworthy scotttish exception ). So where do they get there B12 from if they cannot metabolize it ? Gut Bactria ?

David

As far as I can tell, they get it from eating bacteria.

I've seen a lot of this over the years. Well meaning people passing on incorrect information or eating food based of ideology. Which is fine, I did the same.
But if you what to be healthy and stay away from the doctor and dentist, I think the best source of information on food, sustainable farming, nutrition, etc. is the Weston A. Price Foundation. Just their web site is a great source of information and membership is cheap. Then you get one of the best quarterly journals available.
We're sick, have autistic children, escalating cancers, missing teeth all because of the food and the information available to us by for profit corporations. They don't care, just like the USDA, about our health, just profits!
The spring wapf journal, among may issues covered, explains how food additives as folic acid, actually do the opposite they calm to do. It's unbelievable but true.

@David L: "Cows and Sheep etc are all fully paid up long term members of the vegan club. "

My understanding is that their B12 intake is dependent on their rumen bacterial flora. The rumen is a pretty different system than ours and apparently allows adequate absorption of B12 from those bacteria in the gut that are producing it. B12-producing bacteria in the human gut where it has been investigated are in the lower intestine where the B12 cannot be absorbed...absorption appears to occur in the small intestine that is positioned before the lower intestine.

This is an excellent thread....but IMO, has produced more questions than answers. Since most of the subjects of the human studies will be representing a 'civilized' sample with a 'civilized' diet and performed just within the last 100 years, there remain a lot of unanswered questions.

Neil Layton wrote:

Actually, I don't have an issue with the notion that physiologically humans can eat meat. That's a distraction from the issue. It's the standard red herring.

What I have an issue with is the implications about hierarchy and exploitation that stem from humans eating meat (not relevant to this discussion) and the sustainability implications of 7.4 billion humans eating meat, which is entirely germane to this conversation. That's one reason why we talk about frugality. I had the impression it's one reason Tyler is trying to steer away from eating meat.

I don't believe it is a red herring. It certainly isn't a distraction from the issue at hand, that being that a minimal diet causes deficiencies, particularly if a person doesn't eat meat. The red herring here is the idea that 7.4 billion humans eating meat is the problem. The problem is that the earth cannot sustainably feed 7.4 billion people no matter what they eat. In addition, it isn't a "notion that physiologically humans can eat meat". It's an absolute fact that humans can eat meat, and in my opinion, and the opinion of many people smarter than I, that people have evolved and need to eat meat to enjoy optimal health.

I'm just gonna weigh in on Vitamin D. I am outside for at least an hour every day between the hours of 9 am and 2 pm (usually two hours, often more) without sunshine, in shorts and short sleeves, in Texas. I take supplemental vitamin D supplement that is more than 2000 times the RDA.

I started taking this because after a blood test to look for a cause for my chronic exhaustion it was the only nutrient I was low on. After several months of more than 1000 times the RDA, we retested and I was still low so we doubled the dose.

Nice thing is it cured the fatigue. It also clearly shows that not everyone can stand in the sun for 15 minutes and produce enough Vitamin D. I have pretty much ideal circumstances and wasn't anywhere close.

I'm just gonna weigh in on Vitamin D. I am outside for at least an hour every day between the hours of 9 am and 2 pm (usually two hours, often more) without sunshine, in shorts and short sleeves, in Texas. I take supplemental vitamin D supplement that is more than 2000 times the RDA.

I started taking this because after a blood test to look for a cause for my chronic exhaustion it was the only nutrient I was low on. After several months of more than 1000 times the RDA, we retested and I was still low so we doubled the dose.

Nice thing is it cured the fatigue. It also clearly shows that not everyone can stand in the sun for 15 minutes and produce enough Vitamin D. I have pretty much ideal circumstances and wasn't anywhere close.

Goes to show that nobody is the same for anything; therefore minimum requirements are rather meaningless. Maybe some people could do fine on a vegan diet with no supplements. It also shows us that we should be cautious extrapolating from our experience to what is healthy for everyone else.

Todd Parr wrote:

Neil Layton wrote:

Actually, I don't have an issue with the notion that physiologically humans can eat meat. That's a distraction from the issue. It's the standard red herring.

What I have an issue with is the implications about hierarchy and exploitation that stem from humans eating meat (not relevant to this discussion) and the sustainability implications of 7.4 billion humans eating meat, which is entirely germane to this conversation. That's one reason why we talk about frugality. I had the impression it's one reason Tyler is trying to steer away from eating meat.

I don't believe it is a red herring. It certainly isn't a distraction from the issue at hand, that being that a minimal diet causes deficiencies, particularly if a person doesn't eat meat. The red herring here is the idea that 7.4 billion humans eating meat is the problem. The problem is that the earth cannot sustainably feed 7.4 billion people no matter what they eat. In addition, it isn't a "notion that physiologically humans can eat meat". It's an absolute fact that humans can eat meat, and in my opinion, and the opinion of many people smarter than I, that people have evolved and need to eat meat to enjoy optimal health.

It's the difference between can eat meat and should eat meat. I'm accepting that humans can eat meat. You are saying that humans should eat meat. I dispute that.

Eating a minimal diet will cause deficiencies. Eating nothing but carrots will cause deficiencies. Eating nothing but beef will cause deficiencies.

This statement: "The problem is that the earth cannot sustainably feed 7.4 billion people no matter what they eat." is not supported by the evidence: https://theconversation.com/can-we-feed-the-world-and-stop-deforestation-depends-whats-for-dinner-58091

You seem to be arguing that since we can't feed everybody, we might as well be inefficient about feeding people. I'm suggesting that it seems like a good idea to let as few people starve and chop down as few forests as possible. Please consider which of these is more consistent with "planet care", "people care" and "fair share".

We're not heading into cider press material are we, re human population numbers and appropriate diets for so many of us humans?

Neil Layton wrote:

You seem to be arguing that since we can't feed everybody, we might as well be inefficient about feeding people. I'm suggesting that it seems like a good idea to let as few people starve and chop down as few forests as possible. Please consider which of these is more consistent with "planet care", "people care" and "fair share".

What I am saying is that I don't believe that a vegetarian diet is healthy for anyone long term, and that I believe meat, or at least animal products like eggs, are absolutely essential for optimal human health. I understand that we disagree about this, but I don't know a single vegan that is healthy and doesn't take supplements, and I would be surprised to hear that you do. As adamant as you are that other than vegan diets are bringing about the collapse of the world environment, you admit that you can't follow a vegan diet yourself without supplementation, whether the reason is that it can't be done, that it isn't convenient, that it isn't cost effective, whatever. If someone with your convictions can't do it, are we expected to believe that someone without those convictions can?

Todd Parr wrote:

Neil Layton wrote:

You seem to be arguing that since we can't feed everybody, we might as well be inefficient about feeding people. I'm suggesting that it seems like a good idea to let as few people starve and chop down as few forests as possible. Please consider which of these is more consistent with "planet care", "people care" and "fair share".

What I am saying is that I don't believe that a vegetarian diet is healthy for anyone long term, and that I believe meat, or at least animal products like eggs, are absolutely essential for optimal human health. I understand that we disagree about this, but I don't know a single vegan that is healthy and doesn't take supplements, and I would be surprised to hear that you do. As adamant as you are that other than vegan diets are bringing about the collapse of the world environment, you admit that you can't follow a vegan diet yourself without supplementation, whether the reason is that it can't be done, that it isn't convenient, that it isn't cost effective, whatever. If someone with your convictions can't do it, are we expected to believe that someone without those convictions can?

That has more to do with availability, my present circumstances, western so-called "civilisation" and a whole range of other subjects. I've spent years, healthily, on a vegan diet, without supplements, and certainly with no sign of deficiency.

For a range of reasons to do with my present circumstances that I am actively trying to escape, I'm taking a B12 supplement.

Going any further into this discussion will lead into cider press territory very quickly, if we're not already.

I do think there is a big difference between frugality and a minimal diet. We can discuss that all you like.

This has been / is a great thread let's try to keep it on topic gentlemen
Unlike Burra I can be quite blunt if I feel the need David ( with mod hat on )

The word "meat" seems to mean different things in different cultures. To me, "meat" means "dead animals." In other cultures it seems to mean "the flesh of mammals." From what I have been reading, humans can be perfectly healthy without eating the flesh of mammals, and probably perfectly healthy without eating any dead animals or animal products, if they take supplements. For myself, I hope not to depend on the flesh of mammals, and I certainly won't be depending on the flesh of mammals from the store, for the above listed reasons. If avoiding the flesh of mammals from the store means I won't be perfectly healthy, well, no big deal since I'm not perfectly healthy anyway. I can't personally put my personal health over all other considerations.

kayla garelick wrote:i've had b12 issues as well. i've experienced cognitive problems, weird physical sensations, and depression. i think tempeh is a cultured or fermented product that provides b12. i started making my own tempeh because it's so expensive but the ingredients are super cheap. basically you cook the beans, ad the culture and keep it nice & warm for a couple of days. it makes me thing of blue cheese the way the mycelium () grow. traditionally made with soybeans (which loose their issues when fermented) but many cheaper beans can be used. let me know if you're interested and i'll post linkes to info.

For several years I made soybean tempeh twice a week with a starter from GEM on the west coast...when they stopped having it I quit making tempeh for a long while (a couple years) and I did experience what felt like a serious depression and some cognitive problems that you mention above. I was 'off' enough that it took me a long while to think of trying some b vitamin supplements. I bought an off the shelf cheap sublingual liquid...the effect was fast, just a few days and I started feeling more normal.
Only anecdotal, I know, but I don't have any doubts that I was getting at least some B12s from the tempeh as it was the only food in my diet that had completely stopped. GEM"s culture was a really lively one and made an excellent cake of tempeh. We usually ate it lightly sauteed which made me wonder early on if it really could contain B12 as I had heard, because I thought that all of the B's were heat sensitive? ...and I'm not vegetarian, I eat eggs, cheese and chicken and occasional lamb

Kayla, I would love to know where you are buying your starter...What I bought on line seems really slow and doesn't have the really robust mycelium that I remember from before. I'm trying it with garbonzos and black beans, both come out good but not as great as soybeans, I think.

Judith,
I don't use it but other starters I've bought from Cultures for Health have been very good. They do sell a tempeh starter. It has good reviews, so I hope it is not the one that is not working for you.

Thekla McDaniels wrote:Judith,
I don't use it but other starters I've bought from Cultures for Health have been very good. They do sell a tempeh starter. It has good reviews, so I hope it is not the one that is not working for you.

cultures for health is where I got this most recent starter.....It's OK, it's working, but slower and just isn't as robust in the end. It's just doesn't work as good for me as GEM's and the one I used to get from the MailOrder catalog from the Farm in TN.
Good tasting, only the cake isn't as solid as before. Slightly different spores maybe? I'll have to check.

Too bad. At least I'm warned if I want to make tempeh.

Kayla will probably post those links soon, but is tempeh something you can keep going by starting the next batch with a piece of the last one?

Here's an article which seems to indicate that B12 in prepared plant-based foods, such as tempeh, is there due to bacterial contamination and not because it ordinarily grows in those kinds of cultured foods: http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/plant#nob12

So please be careful about relying on home-cultured plant-based foods for B12.

Thekla McDaniels wrote:

...is tempeh something you can keep going by starting the next batch with a piece of the last one?

I was told that it wouldn't work but then later heard that you could over 'sporulate' the cake and then dry it for a starter...I think that was here at permies but I can't remember what thread.

Now that I'm thinking about it I wonder if my oven was picking up a collection of spores, as I never baked in it then, only used it for incubating the tempeh? Maybe that's why it was coming out better. In the beginning, as with so many things, I had several failed batches, and then perfect every time for a long time. Different house now, same oven but it has been baked in so I'm sure fairly sterile.

Todd Parr wrote:

Neil Layton wrote:...
What I have an issue with is the implications about hierarchy and exploitation that stem from humans eating meat (not relevant to this discussion) and the sustainability implications of 7.4 billion humans eating meat, which is entirely germane to this conversation. That's one reason why we talk about frugality. I had the impression it's one reason Tyler is trying to steer away from eating meat.

... It's an absolute fact that humans can eat meat, and in my opinion, and the opinion of many people smarter than I, that people have evolved and need to eat meat to enjoy optimal health.

Or devolved.

I can't personally put my personal health over all other considerations.

Now, there's an interesting idea to explore.

I tend to think the opposite. The best way to optimize my care of the earth would be to optimize care of myself. I know that if I put my personal health over almost all other considerations, the earth would actually be a healthier, more sustainable place. I would find a job that requires little time in the car. I'd quit drinking coffee in said car. I would eat more fruits and vegetables and fewer grains. I would never eat meat that didn't come from a trusted source. I would buy more produce from local farmers instead of the grocery store that inexplicably ships in everything from California.

FWIW, I am working on all of these things and my health has been on an eight-year upswing. I'm looking younger as I get older.

One of the first rulers of being a healer is that you have to take care of yourself if you want to take care of others. It is hard to do and I actually need to get off the computer and go do my post-work self-care routine. It is incredibly easy to martyr ourselves for something else. Been there. Done it. And when it comes to choices for the earth, mine were poor. It makes sense *to me* that in order to take care of the space around us, we have to take really good care of ourselves. YMMV.

I think we might be talking about different things. I think you are taking my statement out of context. Here's what I said:

Tyler Ludens wrote: If avoiding the flesh of mammals from the store means I won't be perfectly healthy, well, no big deal since I'm not perfectly healthy anyway. I can't personally put my personal health over all other considerations.

If I have to choose my personal health over health of the planet, I would choose the health of the planet. If my health depends on eating the flesh of mammals from the store, I will choose to be unhealthy.

Do you understand what I am saying?

It is absolutely possible for humans to exist without animal products. Millions of vegans gave already demonstrated this. My blood work is flawless. I only take b12 and D when I don't get sun. These the only 2 supplements needed. There are vegan athletes performing at high levels such as Scott jurek, rich roll, Tim shieff, frank Medrano, mike arnstein, Patrick baboumian, and on and on. There have been multiple omnivores in this thread that supplement so I don't see any issue..almost all plants have all 9 essential amino acids, even white rice. If one incorporates leafy greens, legumes, grains and seeds all minerals, vitamins, and essential fats are easily obtained. Michael arnstein won the hurt 100 mile trail race 2 years in a row and he literally eats only fruit. If livestock eats vegan and and humans get all the rda of minerals/vitamins second hand from livestock, why is it so hard to believe that humans can't as well?