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Minimal diet = deficiencies  RSS feed

 
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An old timer told me when he was a kid the counties families would come to the square in the fall and put out their extra surplus. Everyone was free to take anything they needed. His mom grew tons of apricots and would can 2000 jars, but could not grow corn. So by trading freely everyone had what they needed. Even when their crops failed to yeild enough.

Community is a lost way of living..
 
master pollinator
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If our neighborhood got better at growing stuff, we might have a decent food network. But if we each can only grow 2 zucchini, we don't have much to share around....

 
pollinator
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So what do other folks grow where you live either in gardens or on farms ?

David
 
Tyler Ludens
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On farms they grow cattle, goats, sheep, sorghum, and oats. There's also a pecan farm in the area. I don't know much about other gardeners besides the neighbors. They typically grow squash, okra, tomatoes, peppers, and some herbs. Their garden is smaller with less variety than mine.
 
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But just to resurrect a question regarding vegan in general: With all of the discussion regarding the current "vegan community", isn't there some historical precedent of long-time (i.e. over hundreds of years) vegan groups of people around the world and how they obtained complete nutrition?



To my knowledge, there are no historical examples of vegan cultures. There have been small groups who have eaten vegan diets for sure, but I don't believe there are any totally vegan cultures. Some groups eat or have eaten very little animal food, but all eat at least some. As someone else mentioned, the agriculturalists, especially early on, often have nutrient deficiencies. People have historically done best as hunter/gatherers (or at least supplementing their diet with wild foods), herders, and seafood eaters.
 
pollinator
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Tyler Ludens wrote:A diet high on the food chain isn't plausible for us here, and I think this is probably true for most people - most people don't have a lot of land.



I don't think you need much land for a few chickens and ducks. Even if you don't have enough land for them, eggs are about the cheapest source of high quality food around! You can buy pasture raised chicken eggs for $3 a dozen, duck eggs for $6/dozen.

1 duck egg provides 158% of the RDA of B12. That's 50 cents per egg and real food to boot! Add your own veggies and make an omelet. Much cheaper than buying supplements of dubious quality.

Quail and rabbit are options for those with minimal land.
 
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being shy is ok. one just has to find his/her own style that works. shy people tend to think about other people, often TOO much.
but thinking about people can lead to caring. and that is awesome.

it helps to come with a gift. when you care for people, you will often know what they would like. some nice plants/starts? dried herbs? a box of greens? home made jam? whatever ...

when you are good at growing/producing certain items, then you have lots of gifts. hunter, fishers will have other surplusses. so they ll have stuff to give away. giving and receiving is (or can become) an informal form of trading.


what i would do, if i had more/enough land and would need to feed us from that land, i would grow stuff for trading. and trade boxes of fresh produce for other goods. let s say. a person comes to get a box of greens, some zuchinis, some green beans and some radishes, i d say: "Ok, when you come to fetch that box, would you bring me like 5 kg of organic flour from the city? or dried beans, lentils, chick peas ... organic soap, toilet paper n stuff ... whatever".
it depends on having "customers" living close enough. community can help.

but it needs people that produces surplusses. there is a classical economy lesson: two countries produce two different kinds of produce at different costs. through specialization and trade both will win. both will have more, than they would have being on their own.
 
steward
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Tyler Ludens wrote:I can't ask. I'd have to be starving, I think.



From your descriptions, it sounds like you are already starving...

I rarely ask. But what I'm very good at is giving gifts.

Todd Parr wrote:I think that is the only real way to achieve real independence. It has to be done as a smaller, tight-knit community that cares about one another. You're lucky to have found one. I think they are few and far between.



We built our food-sharing-network one member at a time. Painstakingly gifting food to hundreds of people, and finding a few here and there that understand the quid pro quo of a gifting society.

People sometimes ask for discounts at the farmer's market. Next time I hope that I'll remember to say, "Your farmer sure has an achy shoulder from all the work to pick these glorious vegetables. I'll give you the discount you're asking for in exchange for a shoulder massage."





 
Joseph Lofthouse
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Tyler Ludens wrote:Their garden is smaller with less variety than mine.



One of the ladies, that feeds me, does so from a garden that occupies about 30 square feet. My garden is 90,000 square feet. Her garden is an indoor mushroom grow. I harvest a few mushrooms from my outdoor garden from time to time. Anytime I really have to have a mushroom, she could provide one to me... I grow flour corn for her. Because of our collaboration, each of us eats better than we would otherwise eat.

One of the ladies, that feeds me, has a rabbit pen that occupies about 40 square feet. She uses it to mow her lawn. She feeds me rabbit a few times per year. I don't raise any meat animals.

One of the ladies, that provides eggs to me, devotes 100 square feet to the chicken run.

I really really like growing beans, corn, and squash. I really don't like growing broccoli, kale, and cabbage. A different of my collaborators excels at growing brassicas. So she grows the greens, and I grow the beans. Another of my collaborators has the patience to pick berries. So she feeds me berries for a few glorious weeks during the summer, and I feed her squash all winter.

I can get pretty involved with growing, weeding, irrigating, and harvesting. Often times, I'll drop off bottles and vegetables at someone's home, and some of them come back to me as preserves, or bottled vegetables. People are all the time giving me either empty bottles, or bottles with food in them. What's even more joyful than opening a bottle of applesauce that I grew and preserved, is opening one that was grown and preserved by the grandfather of one of my students...

The earth is abundant, and provides way more than I could ever eat. I might as well share the abundance with those that have the inclination to preserve it so that they can feed me during the winter.









 
steward
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I really really like growing beans, corn, and squash. I really don't like growing broccoli, kale, and cabbage.


The 3 Sisters. A classic combo that seems to work well in many regions.
The brassicas...to me (and many others), a headache.

The secret to your inner-circle is that it is vast and diverse. Everybody has certain crops that do well for them, and others that wouldn't even suffice for the garden pests.

Specializing in what you do best in (or prefer to do), works if others within your circle do a combination of the other crops you need/desire. For one farm to produce everything they need is, more or less inefficiency if neighbors can fill in the voids.

I think that you have found the answer, in having developed a diverse group of individuals that you can share/barter/trade with...a community, a tribe, a call-it-whatever-you-want, you have conjoined a group, that together can satisfy the needs of each other. Come Hell or high water, your group will be doing okay when the status quo yuppies are trying to figure out how to survive without a credit card.
 
David Livingston
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I think Joesph is making some really good points . My GF who is very shy once asked me how do I make friends as she could see I was getting on with lots of folks even though I dont speak the language here in France. I replied you make friends by being one * . Look for opportunity to help others and those who return the favours become your friends .

David

* I make no claims to originality I think I read this somewhere many years ago.
 
Tobias Ber
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david, here s one of the sources of that quote/saying (see pic below).
--------------------------------


i think, it comes down to: love your neighbour (at least a little, little bit). be nice. and how you want that people treat you, treat them first (e.g. give them treats). be the change that you want to see in your circle of influence.

good actions will be remembered and may multiply like good seed. giving might be more blessed than taking (if appropiate).




but we need to remember to also watch our boundaries, steward our time/energy/ressources and to prevent burn-out (like being used and used-up by other people who just draw on one and never contribute). that needs wisdom.



but as mentioned before, it s important to start with what one can do really good. like grow the stuff that one can grow very well in that given situation. like getting surplusses easily, without investing too much time/energy/ressources.
10635712_10152711687122863_1557080576245472277_n.jpg
[Thumbnail for 10635712_10152711687122863_1557080576245472277_n.jpg]
 
master steward
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I keep trying to come up with long term solutions for you that do not include organic grass fed meat. So try calling the local deer processing plant and asking if they have any bones for human consumption. With Axis being an exotic they may have one they are processing. Then you can use a saw to cut the bones into the size for a soup pot for Bone Broth.

How to make Bone Broth

I have been doing this for years, I call it free food. I don't cook mine as long as she recommends but mine always gels. I use the crockpot. She lists a place to buy organic grass fed bones. Most grocery stores now days gets prepackaged meats but they might have marrow bones for sale.

I tried to find out if bone broth had B12 which I doubt because of the amount of cooking but I did find this article:

B12 found only in animal foods

What About Hindu Vegans Who Have No B12 Deficiency?

Proponents of the B12 in plant foods myth like to point out that Hindus from India do not seem to suffer from any B12 deficiency despite their diet which includes no animal foods.

However, what is conveniently left out of the discussion is that vegan Hindus that move to England quickly develop B12 deficiency symptoms with no change in diet.



I saw something on the internet about getting lab work done without going to the doctor, you might try searching for that. Also I don't know if you would qualify but you might be able to go to your County Health Dept and have the tests done. They usually use a sliding scale. I don't know how far you are from Luling, but they have a Rural Heath that you can see their doctors on the sliding scale. They might have a Rural Health in your county.

Luling Rural Heath Clinic

New Braunfels Rural Health

They are in many counties but may have different names. I wasn't able to find their main website with locations.
 
Tyler Ludens
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There are only so many beets I can give to the neighbors. I can't share more than I have.

This thread was meant to be a warning about cheaping out on diet and trying to survive on what one can grow when one isn't capable of doing that. I 100% agree that community is needed. I have posted about it often. For myself, there is no way I can interact with hundreds of people to form a community. I can interact with some of my immediate neighbors.

Please don't go on about me needing to form a community, it's extremely painful. I know it's the thing that needs to be done, I already posted about it way back in the thread.


Tyler Ludens wrote:

I don't know if it is realistically possible for an individual or small family to grow a complete diet unless it is the only thing they do, as homesteaders. The work needed to raise animals to provide B12 seems like it would be too much for folks trying to do anything but homestead, if they aren't going to "cheat" by purchasing animal feed, in which case it might make more sense to simply purchase animal products from other farmers. I think a small community could produce complete diets, I'm just having my doubts about this being possible by an individual or small family. I'm personally very very far away from being able to do this, as it turns out.



I could as easily fly. http://www.permies.com/t/54594/permaculture/Importance-Neurodiversity-Permaculture

 
Tyler Ludens
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Anne Miller wrote:I keep trying to come up with long term solutions for you that do not include organic grass fed meat.



Thank you for your help and advice. We're going to start by getting some supplements, I found an organic brand that gets a fairly high rating on some evaluation sites. We're going to eat a few eggs each morning during times when the chickens are laying. We keep encouraging the young man who hunts here to come out and hunt, but he's been busy, it isn't a super high priority for him plus it's no fun to sit out in the heat and bugs. We're going to try purchasing clams from the store, and possibly some other animal products high in B12. If I don't feel better in a couple weeks I'll go to my regular physician and see if she recommends blood tests, and then get them. I think supplements are going to be the main solution, as I can't see changing my diet to eating a lot of dead animals unless they're ones I raise or are hunted here, except for seafood which is expensive and has its own environmental costs.
 
David Livingston
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you dont need to find hundreds thats too daunting a task for anyone and instantly off putting as well , half a dozen would do Start small it might grow it might not , it might not need to

David
 
Joseph Lofthouse
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John Polk wrote:I think that you have found the answer, in having developed a diverse group of individuals that you can share/barter/trade with...a community, a tribe, a call-it-whatever-you-want, you have conjoined a group, that together can satisfy the needs of each other. Come Hell or high water, your group will be doing okay when the status quo yuppies are trying to figure out how to survive without a credit card.



My life's work is building and nurturing the local-food tribe. And it goes beyond food. I cultivate relationships with the local medicine women and healers. I inquire about what plants they need for their work, then acquire the propagules, and devote the effort to learn to grow them in this area. If I can't grow something they need, because it's too far from it's native range, then we find substitutes or work arounds.

For what it's worth, we are currently feeding the yuppies, and have seeds, plans, and equipment in place to help them feed themselves when the EBT cards stop working. My community is filled with vacant chicken coops, fully fenced pastures, and unused pig-pens. We are not that many years removed from when people used to raise their own food. Much of the infrastructure is still in place.

My core food-network is about 5 families. My extended network is around 20. Lots of people buy something from me at the farmer's market, and return the next week to share cookies that they made from something I grew. Often times, I don't even know their names... Shy people like me are perfectly capable of being part of a local-food network.
 
Joseph Lofthouse
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Tyler Ludens wrote:I can't share more than I have.



I wonder if you'd have a more abundant garden, and thus more to share, if you stopped trying to grow everything, and grew only a few things that you really like to grow, and that thrive for you?

 
Tyler Ludens
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Beets grew really well, and I shared them with the neighbors. I also shared lettuce, kale, chard. There's nothing extra right now that the neighbors don't already have.





 
master steward
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I wish you lived near me Tyler. I have the opposite problem. I grow too much food but am too shy to go out and share it. Since it costs so little to grow and there are no middlemen, I usually sell it half what the grocery store charges, but that's only to friends who come to the farm. I have problems that prevent me from going to farmers markets and the like, besides, they got angry at me when they saw what I wanted to charge as it would undersell the larger farmers with huge overheads (who secretly import their food from out of town then sell it as local because they own land nearby)... so... sigh. Many of my friends are in the low-income bracket, and I'm happy to do exchange with them instead of money. Even still, there's always food left over for the compost bin.

I would do a lot of trade if I could. Come and work for 4 hours, get a meal and a big parcel of groceries. But I don't know the people. Worse, I don't know how to manage people so that their 'help' isn't counterproductive.

Somewhere recently I heard that community living is a skill, like gardening or cooking. It needs practice. It also needs the ability to know other people to build a community with. It seems to me that it's difficult to find real life people whos interacting is mutually beneficial. It seems like no matter how much I give, when the time comes I need something in return, the promises and people just slip away.

My life's work is building and nurturing the local-food tribe. And it goes beyond food. I cultivate relationships with the local medicine women and healers. I inquire about what plants they need for their work, then acquire the propagules, and devote the effort to learn to grow them in this area. If I can't grow something they need, because it's too far from it's native range, then we find substitutes or work arounds.



I would like a local food-tribe. I've spent most of my life acquiring skills so that I can contribute to a group like yours. I just haven't found them yet.

I wonder if groups need a core person or people who are outgoing and observant. They act as glue and bring the people with skills together with the people with needs. Maybe there are a lot of people need a community like yours to thrive, but are too shy to find or make one?


Ops, wondered off topic. Back to nutrition and local diets, maybe there is someone like me near you? A shy sort who can grow food as easy as breathing. Maybe they need something you can provide? Maybe their garden/farm is perfect for growing zyx, and yours is great at growing acb? Maybe the key to a successful local diet is, as Joseph says, a food tribe. I often lament that gardening instructions don't include much about cooking, and cookbooks don't include gardening, that these two subjects are really the same thing. Maybe there is a third element that I'm missing, that food and garden also requires community to be successful? I'm still lost in this world, but maybe this is the way I need to go.
 
pollinator
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Remember in permaculture the problem is a solution. You have deer that are too bold because they are not being hunted. Mention to hunters that they would be welcome to remove some problem deer from your property. I am sure they would share some of the meat with you.
 
gardener
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I have neighbors, two houses down who do some hunting. Very nice family with two young boys. Would you like me to ask them if they're looking for hunting grounds?
 
Tyler Ludens
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Yes, thank you.
 
Casie Becker
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They're not home right now. Saturday is probably the next time I'll see them. I'll get back with you about this afterwards.
 
pollinator
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I'm an introvert. I am shy. I am absolutely terrible at asking anyone for anything, even if it is mutually beneficial. I completely 100% get it.

I *have* found that putting what I am doing out on Facebook (you may dislike FB, no problem, it's just one outlet) has had the pleasant result of people I know sharing their projects in turn. I didn't know a lot of these people that I have known for years had these interests and skills.

When it comes to growing and preserving food, there are a lot of people, particularly women, who are afraid of being considered old-lady-like if they share their projects on the internet. I have had many women in their 50s and 60s (not old, just a different generation) come up to me offline and say "I just love reading your posts about flowers and wine-making and gardening." I'm guessing that at some point they were made to feel profoundly un-sexy about their projects and quit sharing them. These skills run deep, we just have to suss them out and get people sharing.
 
pollinator
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Thanks for drawing my attention to this, Tyler.

I've been vegan for years, and have had to give this a lot of thought. I'm physically very healthy.

First, people talk about B12 and meat. Look, if animals produced B12, we wouldn't need to consume it. We are also animals, remember? Animals can store it, but not produce it. In order to obtain B12 from animals you have to either eat those organs where it's stored, or let it go rotten.

Vitamin B12 is only produced by some - not all - yeasts and bacteria, and not all strains of those bacteria produce vitamin B12. In some cases, some animals that are classed as being high in B12 are so because you eat their guts (with the bacteria) along with everything else.

At present, I take a supplement and eat a lot of Marmite, but in the medium to long term fermentation may be the way to go - but not all yeasts and bacteria produce B12. I have not followed up which fermented foods are best for this: the research keeps changing. It's on my list.

The next problem you may have involves amino acids. There are eight essential amino acids, but it's possible for many diets, especially vegetarian and vegan ones, to be deficient in one or more of three of these: lysine, tryptophan and methionine. Lysine is common in pulses. Tryptophan is common in grains. With a diet rich in both you should be able to meet your methionine requirement. Finger millet (Eleusine coracana) is particularly rich in methionine, and may well be suited to your climate, Tyler.

Finally, many of us are often working with poor soil and generally degraded land, because it's all we can afford. This is one reason why it's vital to have your soil properly analysed and remediated. If the minerals aren't there, or there is a low cation exchange capacity or the minerals are otherwise locked up in a form the plants can't use you will end up with stunted plants and a deficient diet, regardless of whether you eat the plants or the animals that fed on them. I'm a big fan of the use of seaweed if you can get it, but which addition you use for remediation will depend on which minerals are lacking. In badly overgrazed land you may need to add a lot of things to your soil.
 
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John Weiland wrote:Coming toward vegan only recently, I was not aware of the B12 issue. We use nutritional yeast quick a bit as a cooking and flavoring additive which seems to provide quite a bit, but it seems that fermentation would have provided a lot of B12 possibility in a vegan diet, yes? Outside of meat sources are not the East Indian and Asian cultures getting a significant portion of B12 from fermented/cultured products?.....or am I not thinking about this realistically?
.............................................................................................................................................................................

Abstract from a review that refers to bacterial production of B12 (regretfully, I don't think the full article is freely-available):

Curr Opin Biotechnol. 2013 Apr;24(2):160-8.

Bacteria as vitamin suppliers to their host: a gut microbiota perspective.

LeBlanc JG, Milani C, de Giori GS, Sesma F, van Sinderen D, Ventura M.

Abstract

Food-related lactic acid bacteria (LAB) as well as human gut commensals such as bifidobacteria can de novo synthesize and supply vitamins. This is important since humans lack the biosynthetic capacity for most vitamins and these must thus be provided exogenously. Although vitamins are present in a variety of foods, deficiencies still occur, mainly due to malnutrition as a result of insufficient food intake and because of poor eating habits. Fermented milks with high levels of B-group vitamins (such as folate and riboflavin) can be produced by LAB-promoted and possibly bifidobacteria-promoted biosynthesis. Moreover, certain strains of LAB produce the complex vitamin cobalamin (or vitamin B12). In this review, fermented foods with elevated levels of B-group vitamins produced by LAB used as starter cultures will be covered. In addition, genetic abilities for vitamin biosynthesis by selected human gut commensals will be discussed.

A major conclusion from that review is this:

"The increase of B-group vitamin concentrations in fermented/functional foods is possible through judicious selection of microbial species and cultivation conditions. It is expected that the food industry will exploit novel and efficient vitamin-producing strains to produce fermented products. Such products are expected to provide economic benefits to food manufacturers since increased ‘natural’ vitamin concentrations would be an important value-added trait without increasing production costs."

So with the many references to fermentation here on Permies, this may be a good place to investigate complementing nutrition in the vegan diet.



The solution for b12 is to just take a b12 supplement. B12 is produced by a bacteria. The reason it's found in animal products is because they eat large amounts of unwashed produce/foods or have been supplemented themselves. Fermented foods and the like are not a reliable sources of b12 in general.
 
pollinator
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Finally, many of us are often working with poor soil and generally degraded land, because it's all we can afford. This is one reason why it's vital to have your soil properly analysed and remediated. If the minerals aren't there, or there is a low cation exchange capacity or the minerals are otherwise locked up in a form the plants can't use you will end up with stunted plants and a deficient diet, regardless of whether you eat the plants or the animals that fed on them. I'm a big fan of the use of seaweed if you can get it, but which addition you use for remediation will depend on which minerals are lacking. In badly overgrazed land you may need to add a lot of things to your soil.



Neil, this is right on. I'm a fan of Steve Solomon (who, by the way, is not a vegan but is a "vegetabletarian.") Steve has done a lot of work on how to remineralize the soil.

For instance, my soil is almost completely deficient in boron. This will show up in us, unless I fix it. The problem is, there needs to be no more and no less then 3.5 pounds of boron . . PER ACRE! Just imagine the millions of pounds of soil on an acre, compared to 4 pounds. So, to every one of my 200 ft2 beds, I am adding a tablespoon of borax (10% boron) well mixed into more bulky fertilizers.

Maybe your soil lacks manganese, or zinc, or something else. A soil test from a reputable lab is cheap, about 30 dollars including shipping. Eventually, I hope to be able to watch my plants and diagnose deficiencies, and build a completely closed loop soil system, but to get it started, an professional soil test and some imported minerals are important. I could have never fixed the boron problem by importing organic matter; too dilute.
 
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As one of the first protoecovillage experiments in the 1970s, The Farm made a number of mistakes that provided valuable lessons. You have identified some here. As a vegan community of 1200-1400 residents, we were deficient in vit B12. We ate a lot of Nutritional Yeast and even sold it under our own brand (Good Tasting Nutritional Yeast). That has many things to recommend it but did not meet our vit B12 requirements. We went really big time into fermented foods also, including a tempeh lab (still the worlds largest provider of inoculum). miso, shoyu, and lots of homemade krauts and kimchi (Sandor Katz is a neighbor). Eventually we met the B12 demand by supplementing our soymilk with commercial grade B12, which was likely not of vegan origin, most likely fish oil, but could have been insects. Some day I might like to experiment with grasshopper farming which seems very climate adaptive. From our soymilk, the B12 rippled through our diet as tofu, yogurt, ice bean, frogurt, etc. A most agreeable way to ingest enough.

I would say one of the major takeaways was that we COULD grow our necessities at that village scale, and did, but it was neither wise nor appropriate. After achieving a modicum of self-sufficiency we became active in the national food cooperative movement and took advantage of the opportunities to exchange our soy products, forest mushrooms and other specialities for foods that could not or should not be grown in south central Tennessee, such as various fruits and citrus from the subtropics or cold-weather crops. We learned that trade is also an intrinsic human need, and going it alone is some kind of warped cowboy myth. You can create communities of interest over considerable distances without burning fossil fuels. By connecting those relationships, we are strengthening the supportive net.

- Albert Bates, Dip.Perm.
 
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Richest among all the vitamin B complex foods are milk, yeast, liver, whole-grain cereals, nuts, eggs, yogurt, fruits, meats and leafy vegetables.

The B-complex family consist of: Vitamin B1, Vitamin B2, Vitamin B3, Vitamin B5, Vitamin B6, Vitamin B7, Vitamin B9, Vitamin B12 and four supplements.
The numbers attached to the names of these vitamins are based on the order when they were discovered.
Vitamin B1 is an essential vitamin that aids in conversion of carbohydrates into energy.
It also helps regulate normal functioning of heart, muscles and nervous system.
Rich food sources are whole and enriched grains, potato, dairy products, sunflower seeds, pork and dried beans.

Riboflavin plays a vital role in forming the red blood cells.
Good sources of Riboflavin are liver, milk, dairy products, yeast extracts, meat, eggs, spinach, enriched noodles and mushrooms.

Niacin is another B group vitamin that is essential for normal functioning of the digestive system, skin and nerves.
It is richly found in dairy products, bread, yeast, fish, legumes, enriched bread, lean meats, nuts, poultry, fish and eggs.

Vitamin B6 is essential for the synthesis of antibodies and functioning of immune system.
Good sources of Vitamin B-6 are sunflower seeds, bananas, whole grains, legumes, beans, nuts, meats, fish, eggs and fortified breads and cereals.

Folic acid is required for healthy growth and development as this vitamin acts a co-enzyme for producing energy.
Rich food sources of folic acid are beans, legumes, kidneys, whole grains, peas, citrus fruits, fruit juices wheat bran, dark green leafy vegetables, poultry, pork and shellfish liver.
These enriched sources enable the vitamin to function as a co-enzyme in the breakdown of fats and proteins to produce energy.

Vitamin B12 aids in regulating metabolism and promotes a healthy nervous system.
B12 is mainly found in all animal food sources like poultry, certain algae, shellfish, yeast extract, eggs, meat and milk and milk products.

What is known as the "Vitamin B complex" is made up of 8 water soluble vitamins that take care of several functions in the body.
A deficiency in any of these 8 vitamins that make up Vitamin B complex can cause serious health problems.
It is for this reason that one should include vitamin B complex foods in one's diet.

Here is a list of vitamin B complex foods:

Pork, berries, legumes, lean meats. Nuts, soy milk ( Vitamin B1)
Eggs, dark green vegetables, fish, grains, lean meat, mushrooms ( B2)
Sunflower seeds, tuna, poultry, potato, cottage cheese, liver (B3)
Organ meats, avocados, broccoli, mushrooms( B5)
Green beans, whole grains, spinach, fish, bananas( B6)
Soy products, egg yolks, fish, organ meats, cheese, sweet potatoes( B7)
Green leafy vegetables, citrus juice, legumes, tofu, tomato juice ( B9)
Milk, fish, fortified breakfast cereal, eggs, shellfish ( B12)

When your plan is to grow all your own food, a reference to the foods that supply the full B-Complex is not varied enough that you could feasibly grow a complete, nutrient rich, diet in any one place on earth without at least one green house.
Most soils (in all countries) are not as "Nutrient Loaded" as they would have to be to actually be able to grow a full nutrition garden, it becomes necessary to add nutrition to the soils via some sort of fertilizer and mineral additions.
In many cases this soil supplementation can be done with sea minerals and quality compost. However most areas do not have the availability of fresh sea weed and kelp to put into the compost heap, so one will need to buy those particular components to add to their compost heaps.

Within this thread several folks have mentioned the deficiency of the "Vegan, Vegetarian" diet, which is that the human body has requirements for nutrition that only can be found in Meat and other animal products.
The idea that the human species was meant to eat only vegetables is false because of the bodies needs for items only found in meat and other animal products.
If it isn't there in the first place, you don't have the opportunity to get it.

The question becomes, "is it possible to only eat what you grow and still get a full balance of nutrition", the answer is Yes but only if;
1. you understand the real needs of the body.
2. you take the steps of "Gatherer" to gardening so you will fill those needs through your gardens, orchards, vineyards, and add the hunter part (fishing, growing small animals for food).
3. you may find that some form of barter will be necessary to fulfill your body's nutritional needs, at least for the period of time it takes to get enough soil nutrition going so you can grow most of your needs. (buying with money is a form of barter)

Once you have these things in mind, only execution remains, for some folks it will be easier than for others but it is doable with a plan that points towards the end goal of being self sufficient.
Once you make your list of your bodies needs, it is easier to come up with a plan to fill those needs. In some cases new skills will need to be acquired, in others there may be aversions that must be overcome before the new skills can be learned.

I had a friend once that wanted to run off and be a hermit in the high mountains, he was not going to hunt because he didn't want to kill any animals.
The elders explained to him that he could not go be a hermit since he did not have the correct mind set or the proper skills to be able to survive.
He tried it anyway, two of us went to check on him after three months and we ended up bringing him back to nurture him back to health, he had nearly starved to death from lack of nutrition.
It was inevitable that this would happen to him, because of his dire lack of desire and skill set.
He is still wanting to go be a hermit, but now, 30 years later he is closer than he was before, when he didn't know how to identify many of the edible plants, had no knowledge of medicine use, and was not a hunter at all.
Now he is skilled with the bow, can locate many different food plants and he is learning his herbs and how to use them. I think that by the time he is 55 he may be able to fill his real desire, but we will watch over him just in case.
 
Neil Layton
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Bryant RedHawk wrote:
The idea that the human species was meant to eat only vegetables is false because of the bodies needs for items only found in meat and other animal products.



Please could you name one [EDIT]:, or better yet all of them, so we know what we need?
 
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@Albert B.: " ....going it alone is some kind of warped cowboy myth."

And a myth older than we think:

"....warring “for cattle was a noble activity protected by the warrior god and sanctioned by myth. All the Indo-European peoples seem to have pursued it zealously with a sense of supreme confidence and self-righteousness.” The same was true of the non-Indo-European cattle peoples of East Africa and South America, particularly where they had steeds, and was so prevalent as to become part of the mythology of the anglo cowboy in the North American West and the gaucho in the South American Pampas." -- Paul Shepard, "Coming Home to the Pleistocene".

For what it's worth:

"Surprisingly, a higher incidence of vitamin B12 deficiency has been reported in Indian immigrants to Britain compared to those residing in India. Albert et al. (9) suggested that the changed environment may alter the micro-ecology of the gut and microbial synthesis of vitamin B12 may be reduced. Rose,(10) on the other hand, suggested that the better hygienic practices adopted for food processing in the United Kingdom may lessen microbial contamination of food and consequently the vitamin B12 intake. Absorption of vitamin B12 synthesized in the ileum, as suggested by Albert et al.(9) would depend on the availability of free intrinsic factor. On the other hand, the explanation given by Rose seems more likely. In India, pure protected drinking water is rarely available. The water is contaminated with various microflora, including those from human and animal feces. The practice of defecating in open fields and lack of proper sewage disposal systems also are conducive to a greater fecal contamination of foods. Further, the mode of toilet hygiene practiced in India, where water rather than tissue paper is used, increases chances of oro-fecal contamination.

Although microorganisms in the ileum may synthesize vitamin B12, the possibility of colon bacteria and other exogenous microorganisms contributing to vitamin B12 intake in populations of developing countries, in a hand-to-mouth cycle appears to make a significant contribution to vitamin B12 nutriture."
--CONTRIBUTION OF THE MICROFLORA OF THE SMALL INTESTINE TO THE VITAMIN B12 NUTRITURE OF MAN (1981), Baker, SJ, Nutrition Reviews, 39: 147-148.

Don't know to what extent this hypothesis has been validated or debunked....and just to note that the models of Albert versus Rose are not mutually exclusive. If valid, to what extent again have we possibly 'sanitized' our way out of some diseases and yet into others....
 
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Neil Layton wrote:

Bryant RedHawk wrote:
The idea that the human species was meant to eat only vegetables is false because of the bodies needs for items only found in meat and other animal products.



Please could you name one [EDIT]:, or better yet all of them, so we know what we need?



5 important brain nutrients only found in animal foods

1. Vitamin B12
A deficiency is widespread among vegans and vegetarians, who avoid these foods. In one study, a whopping 92% of vegans and 47% of vegetarians were deficient in this critical brain nutrient
Being deficient in B12 can cause irreversible damage to the brain. If your levels are just slightly lower than they should be, you may have symptoms like poor memory, depression and fatigue

2. Creatine
Scientific studies consistently show that creatine supplementation can increase muscle mass and strength
Creatine is actually not an essential nutrient, because the liver can produce it out of other amino acids. However, this conversion process appears to be inefficient.
Vegetarians who take creatine supplements see improvements in cognitive performance, especially in more complex tasks, while there is no difference in non-vegetarians

3. Vitamin D3
Vitamin D is produced out of cholesterol in the skin when it is exposed to ultraviolet rays from the sun.
D2 comes from plants, D3 from animals. Studies show that D3 is much more effective than the plant form
A deficiency in Vitamin D is linked to all sorts of diseases, including cardiovascular disease and cancer.

4. Carnosine
It is strictly found in animal tissues, meaning that vegans and vegetarians aren’t getting much, if any, from the diet
This substance is very protective against various degenerative processes in the body.
It is a potent antioxidant, inhibits glycation caused by elevated blood sugars and may prevent cross-linking of proteins

5. Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA)
Everyone concerned with nutrition knows that Omega-3 fatty acids are extremely important.
The human body can not make them, therefore we must get them from the diet.
This is why Omega-3s (and Omega-6s) are termed “essential” fatty acids – if we don’t eat them, we get sick.
There are two active forms of Omega-3s in the body, EPA and DHA.
DHA is the most abundant Omega-3 fatty acid in the brain and it is critical for normal brain development
Many people who avoid animal products supplement with flax seed oil instead, which is a great source of ALA… a plant form of Omega-3.
However, ALA needs to be converted to DHA for it to work. Studies show that this conversion process is notoriously ineffective in humans

There you go, five very good reasons and most importantly, the why.

One of the really weird things about greens is that while spinach is always listed as a good source of Iron,
the human body actually can take up very little of it from spinach,
especially raw (this is true of many needed nutrients found in vegetables, the nutrients are more available to us from cooked vegetables).
 
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Tyler Ludens wrote:I think the main solution is to try for a much more varied diet. We had gotten into the habit of eating a very small variety of things, some of which were low nutrition. We seem to have paid the price for laziness! So far my husband hasn't exhibited deficiency symptoms except gaining weight. Too many empty calories. Also he seems to have even less energy lately, as a low-energy person to begin with. Lack of energy seems to be a general symptom of poor diet. I wonder if most of the people with depression, chronic fatigue, and other disorders characterized by low energy are actually suffering from poor nutrition.



Get a full thyroid workup (with the T3 and Hashimoto's antibodies tests, NOT just the TSH test, which by itself is often inaccurate). You're describing classical hypothyroidism. I can't emphasize this strongly enough.

80% of people over age 50 have some degree of hypothyroidism due to reduced efficiency of conversion from T4 to T3.

Thyroid levels will also influence what you want to eat. When you're hypothyroid, your tissues are starving for glucose (which makes you want to eat carbs) and you're usually low on testosterone and estrogen too (since both rely on thyroid), which causes you to instinctively try to replace those with phytoestrogen (plant estrogens). Unfortunately this becomes a vicious cycle since phytoestrogens are thyroid inhibitors. One study of women who became vegetarians in their middle years found that all of them were estrogen-deficient. Soy and flaxseed have the highest levels of phytoestrogens (sufficient to cause birth defects in male infants).

Another side effect of low thyroid is mineral cravings, because blood calcium drops, so to make up for that calcium is leeched out of bones and teeth.

Iodine supplements above the level of iodized salt can actually make this worse. Regularly eating kelp can destroy your thyroid.

Bipolar syndrome is a common symptom of Hashimoto's Thyroiditis, because the brain is alternately flooded with and starved for energy, depending on the state of the thyroid gland at the moment. One psychiatrist achieved a 90% cure rate for his bipolar patients by putting them on T3 (the active form of thyroid hormone) and pulling them off all other meds.

Chronic untreated low thyroid can lead to hyperparathyroidism, which will NOT resolve from any treatment other than surgical removal of the affected parathyroid gland. It can also lead to such apparently-unrelated problems as high blood pressure, heart disease, adult-onset tooth decay, breast and ovarian cysts, and some types of cancer. Don't take it lightly. Perhaps half of all chronic conditions, and most of what we think of as the "symptoms of aging" are actually the effects of low thyroid. Hypothyroidism is probably the most under-diagnosed and under-treated of all medical conditions -- yet so many people struggle to treat apparently-unrelated symptoms that it directly causes:

http://hypothyroidmom.com/300-hypothyroidism-symptoms-yes-really/

Most general practitioners don't read the literature on the topic, and are woefully undereducated about all things thyroid. I have Hashi, and I had to take up reading the Journal of Endocrinology in sheer self-defense.



 
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Bryant RedHawk wrote:

Neil Layton wrote:

Bryant RedHawk wrote:
The idea that the human species was meant to eat only vegetables is false because of the bodies needs for items only found in meat and other animal products.



Please could you name one [EDIT]:, or better yet all of them, so we know what we need?



There is a list in my post.



Maybe I'm going blind and stupid, but I still can't see it. Am I looking at the wrong post? The only exception is B12 which, as I've already pointed out, is stored by and available from animal foods, but is formed only by the activity of yeasts and bacteria.
 
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Neil Layton wrote:

Bryant RedHawk wrote:

Neil Layton wrote:

Bryant RedHawk wrote:
The idea that the human species was meant to eat only vegetables is false because of the bodies needs for items only found in meat and other animal products.



Please could you name one [EDIT]:, or better yet all of them, so we know what we need?



There is a list in my post.



Maybe I'm going blind and stupid, but I still can't see it. Am I looking at the wrong post? The only exception is B12 which, as I've already pointed out, is stored by and available from animal foods, but is formed only by the activity of yeasts and bacteria.



No you aren't I am. I had it ready to post and pulled a goofy. It is up now my apologies.
 
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Neil Layton wrote:The only exception is B12 which, as I've already pointed out, is stored by and available from animal foods, but is formed only by the activity of yeasts and bacteria.



B12 is the one that is being talked about extensively in this thread, and you have already said that you have to supplement it because you are a vegetarian. You also keep pointing out that it is only formed by the activity of yeasts and bacteria. I don't understand why that matters. The simple matter is there is no practical way for a human to get enough B12 without eating animal products. Whether it is formed by bacteria, yeast, or a fairy godmother, if the only way I can get it is by eating meat or supplementing, then there is no valid vegetarian answer.
 
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Bryant

Thank you.

Vitamin B12: we've been through this. Deficiency is not unknown, but the main cause of pathology tends not to be a lack of B12 but the lack of a co-factor, one not related to diet.

Carnosine is synthesised in the human body from (had to check this to make sure) l-histidine and beta-alanine (the limiting factor), which are both common amino acids

Creatine: this article discusses the wrinkles in the creatine-cognitive function association: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201202/your-brain-creatine

Vitamin D can be an issue in cloudy, temperate climates, which is why it's commonly added to fortified foods in the UK. An active permie spending many hours in sunlight is unlikely to have a problem with this. At Tyler's latitude I doubt Vitamin D is one of her issues. Cholesterols are likewise formed from common shorter-chain fatty acids.

I'm not sure how driving marine ecosystems further and further towards complete collapse is consistent with care for the planet. It seems to be that or eat seeds, nuts and the oils pressed from them. I have no issue with that. In any case, omega-3 supplementation has not been shown to have specific health benefits (dois: doi:10.1001/2012.jama.11374, 10.1001/jama.295.4.403, 1001/jamainternmed.2013.12765.) No mammal can synthesise omega-3 fatty acids.
 
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