Minimal diet = deficiencies

Tyler, don't be hard on yourself. Every outcome, success or fail, is a way to collect information about what you're doing/eating, make modifications, then follow up to see your progress. It's all part of the path.
One thing to keep in mind: your diet might actually have "adequate" B complex vitamins, but your body's needs may be higher. This is called "biochemical individuality" and was discovered by Dr Roger Williams, who showed that even among genetically identical individuals, one may need up to 20-fold higher levels of a nutrient to achieve the same level of health/functionality. Another thought: are you LOSING B vitamins? Stress, alcohol, and many medications cause our bodies to use up or deplete our B vitamin stores. Yet another consideration: in our clinical practice, we've seen many clients who's diet actually contains adequate vitamin B12 (or B6), but whose lab work shows severe deficiency. [For B12 testing, you want a functional status or MMA test...that's methylmalonic acid.] Further testing has shown these clients to be gluten intolerant or even celiac. B12 absorption requires your parietal cells to secrete intrinsic factor, and these cells can be damaged in gluten sensitive persons. Keep gathering information. Perhaps find a knowledgable naturopath to consult!

Thank you, Jeanne. I seem to feel better when I reduce the amount of wheat products I eat (so why the heck was I eating saltines?!?) and have felt my healthiest on a paleo-style diet. Stress has definitely been a factor in feeling crappy. Though I think our over all quality of life has improved with less paying work (which is stressful), having our household income plummet below the poverty line for awhile was stressful in its own way. But I'm convinced we can eat a healthier diet even when we have a small income, it will just take a little more effort and creativity.

[quote=Andrew Brock
perhaps in misunderstanding the last part but it seems like we have everything the human body needs to thrive. This has been demonstrated by the existence of humans for thousands of years before industrialization

The key is "thousands of years before industrialization" Indeed bone samples have shown that the ancients were getting better nutrition from their foods, once mechanical means came into being, nutrition goes down hill.
The lack of nutrition in todays foods is linked to many of the cancers humans now endure. The fact that patient numbers continue to rise shows just how poor foods have become due to artificial fertilizers in the name of production quantities.

Where once we were a species that enjoyed decent nutritional values from our foods, now we struggle to get the bare minimum needed to thrive. This is not just surviving, thriving means your body keeps getting better and fights off diseases without much medicine needed, which is not the case in 2016.
The human race has succumbed to eating mostly empty calories, and as a species we are suffering for it.
Many of todays mental issues can be directly traced to the severe lack of proper nutrients and misguided supplements, all created for money to those who create them with no or little regard for the health of the customer.

Many of the people I talk with are under the misconception that what they eat is healthy food.
Their reasoning is "the government looks out for our health needs and wouldn't let bad products on the market", proof that they really have their heads in the sand, all you have to do to crash this reasoning is to watch TV.
How many advertisements are being run by Solicitors (Lawyers) for class action lawsuits against medical device companies?
How many drug companies are in the same set of shoes?
Why is it that these "bad drugs. bad products" were allowed by the FDA to ever be on the market in the first place?
The answer is money, the FDA often takes a companies word for it when it comes to approving products, later, when it is obvious that product is killing or maiming people, they withdraw their approval and that should be proof enough that our government does not do what it is supposed to be doing.
The way it happens is that the population continues to re-elect politicians that have failed in doing the job they were elected to do.
The Definition of Insanity applies here. (doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results), bites humans in the ass every time, yet they still don't learn the lesson being taught.

]

I'm with you there. For the most part this can be remedied by growing and eating your own food and only purchasing quality grown produce. If people eat 80% whole foods the world would be much healthier. This can be seen in reverse in the Okinawan diet. In the 50s they were among the longest living populations, but since adopting rich western diets their health has become on par with western health (not surprisingly)

I remember hearing Geoff Lawton mention that 13 Brazil Nuts a day was enough to fulfill your nutritional needs. I'm assuming he meant micronutrients.

Bill Mollison has that book called "The Book of Ferments"

I'd be cautious about jumping into fermentation though. A lot of people seem so quick to extol its virtues, but I don't think it's as safe and simple as some people claim it to be. Lactic acid from fermentation products seems to have many negative effects on the body.

If you're at a point where you're open to thinking a bit outside the box when it comes to nutrition and willing to consider some different viewpoints, then you might want to read the work of Dr. Ray Peat. One of his focuses is on the toxicity of PUFAs (Poly Unsaturated Fatty Acids) and this goes against the mainstream notion that unsaturated fats like omega-3s are healthy. It's a very contrarian outlook, but it comes from a scientific and honest position. I think it's at least worth a look.

How much fruit do you eat? High quality fruit for the most part is extremely safe food. Roots and fruits don't have the plant toxins found in above ground leaves and seeds. I've heard that if treated as a staple food, fruit can sometimes provide the required macro and micro nutrients. It can be surprisingly sufficient in mineral content if grown well.

I've read in a cheese making book that sheep's milk provides vitamin A while goat's and cow's milk provides beta-carotene (precursor to vitamin A). That's why sheep's milk fat doesn't have that yellow orange hue like good cow butter would. But it's possible that not having to synthesize beta-carotene into vitamin A could ease metabolism. Sheep's milk is also supposed to be relatively high in B12. Keeping a small milking sheep might be extremely helpful when it comes to nutrition. You could always stir fry grasshoppers for B12 too.

More and more I'm becoming intrigued by the idea of top quality homegrown tropical and subtropical high calorie fruits as being a nearly perfect food in it's own right. Add milk to that and you've potentially got a really good thing going. Our ancestors knew to pair fruit and dairy together. Apparently fructose aids in the assimilation of calcium from milk or cheese.

I think also just following your instinctual cravings and first inclinations on what your body needs at the moment would probably help point you in the right direction instead of just shotgunning with diversity. Check out Ray Peat though

C Sanct wrote:You could always stir fry grasshoppers for B12 too.

We don't have that many grasshoppers!

Thank you for your suggestions. I should have posted initially, if I didn't, that it isn't plausible for me to keep dairy animals.

It's good for people to keep posting their ideas in the thread, though, even if I can't apply them to my own diet. I think it's especially helpful if people can post what they're actually doing to make sure they get good nutrition, rather than what someone could do, or might do. I think real life examples are the most helpful, and the most persuasive.

Andrew Brock wrote:If livestock eats vegan and and humans get all the rda of minerals/vitamins second hand from livestock, why is it so hard to believe that humans can't as well?

It's hard to believe because we don't have 4 stomachs and the rest of our digestion is different.

I have become sick more than a few times by eating roots or fruits. Examples include: Solanum nigrum, Solanum tuberosum, and Calochortus nuttallii.

Andrew Brock wrote:
]

This can be seen in reverse in the Okinawan diet. In the 50s they were among the longest living populations, but since adopting rich western diets their health has become on par with western health (not surprisingly)

This was documented by Weston A Price in many peoples as they switched from their traditional diet to the "industrialized diet", including changes in facial bone structure in one generation. If you haven't read the book and seen his photographs I recommend it.

Tyler asked "what are you doing?" As opposed to what a person could or should do. My general guideline is to eat what was available to humans before industrialization and the creation of food like substances. I came to this conclusion after reading Silent Spring by Rachel Carson in about 1970. It seemed like trusting experts was not very reliable even then, and, having had my mother die at the age of 43, of high blood pressure, then heart attacks, I was pretty interested in longevity. When I asked a doctor what I could do NOW, at the age of 19 to prevent myself having the same fate, he said nothing. So, I just figured eat as close to the earth as possible, and if humans 1000 years ago were not eating a substance somewhere on earth, I would not eat it either. Avoiding additives for stabilization and coloring and "natural flavoring" as well as the outright synthetic flavorings.

And I just tried for 90%, so as not to be so extreme I could not stay with it. I raised my children along the same guidelines, when access to grass fed meat was simple not there at any price. So, we were practically vegetarian. They, as healthy young adults, seeing friends with weird conditions from popular medications of the era for such life threatening things as acne, have thanked me a thousand times over.

For snacking, they sometimes held wheat berries in their mouths until they became chewy. For "oatmeal cookies" I cut the sweetener down to 1/4, increased the oats, replaced the flour with ground oats, etc etc etc. For meat loaf, it was bulgar for texture, egg, vegetables, probably tofu, though now I don't consider tofu as food beyond a condiment, it is so processed, but does meet the ancestor/ancient human guideline.

To make up for the more expensive foods I bought for the health of my growing children, I bought things like beans and oatmeal in 50 pound bags. Recently I have discovered I can use the pinto beans or black beans, probably all the culinary beans as seed. I plant them by just throwing them out on the ground, and when the plants come up, the foliage is nutritious and tasty.

For more than 40 years I've been asking myself what would pre industrial people have done with this, about this. It helps to turn off the TV, the radio (including NPR) don't read magazines or newspapers, just be one with the whims and vagaries of nature.

My own success story, (IMO as a result of throwing off the shackles of civilization at an early age) I did not die at 43, I am on no pharmaceuticals or supplements, I do not have any chronic or acute conditions and I am free of the conditions generally attributed to aging in our culture.

I go ahead and have the headache, muscle ache, inflammation, rather than take ibuprofen or tylenol.

I could go on and on, but I think I've outlined my strategies.

Cj Sloane wrote:

It's hard to believe because we don't have 4 stomachs and the rest of our digestion is different.

luckily we don't eat grass and have access to a few thousand other plants species that can easily be digested by humans

The main food deficiency I've run into when trying to subsist totally on food raised on my property is the lack of an oily fish. The only meats produced on my property are chicken, lamb, and bluegill/bass. If those are the only meats I consume, after 3 weeks on this I will start to develop arthritic pain. but a couple of days after a serving of oily fish (salmon, sardines, mackerel), this pain will go away. I've gone through this cycle often enough to determine cause and effect.

i ve read that nixtamalization of corn will raise B3 levels.

Tobias Ber wrote:i ve read that nixtamalization of corn will raise B3 levels.

And if you don't want to work with lye or ashes, you can use baking soda. I've used both lye and bkg soda, but have not tried the ashes. To extract the lye from ashes, soak ashes in water then drain it off. It's a caustic solution, how caustic depends on how much ashes how long soaked and if you dehydrated some of the water out. I have extracted they lye from ashes to get lye for soapmaking.

I don't know which vitamins are made available by the process, but it's a significant increase in nutrition.

B3 (niacin) is also fairly easy to get through diet. Some good sources high in B3 are avacado (2.6mg per), sunflower seeds, chia seeds, bananas, mangos, and beans. I typically average 28mg (174% RDA) everyday. Luckily if you are eating foods with B3 you will be getting lots of other vitamins and minerals that will aid absorption.

Chia is on the list of plants I'm going to try growing some day. We're on the edge of the native range of them, they're a beautiful plant, and the whole seeds are readily available in the health food aisle of the grocery stores here.

and if they are organic seeds, they are suitable for planting. Much cheaper by the pound from grocer than in the little packet from the gardening website.

I just re-read "Comfrey Report" by Lawrence D. Hills. Here is a quote: "...the discovery that it (comfrey) is the only land plant so far known to extract vitamin B12 from the soil..." and "The western Vegan who wishes to take comfrey in quantity to supply his vitamin B12 (comfrey is the only land plant so far known to extract this from the soil) and these essential amino acids can prepare what is known widely as "Green Drink." Take six to eight large comfrey leaves, cut them in three and put them in an electric blender with a teacupful of water or fruit juice. This makes a not unpleasant drink, rich also in vitamin C, and three glasses a day would be helpful in cases of B12 deficiency, for those who insist on an entirely vegetable source of this vitamin." Keep in mind, the 2nd edition was published in 1975.

I'd worry a lot about which exact comfrey is being ingested. http://livertox.nih.gov/Comfrey.htm https://hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/afcm/comfrey.html etc.

Here we are discussing where the minimal diet will take an individual. I don't really know what to say about the "expert" information provided by the links, though I looked at them both. Research can find great information, but we accept (I think universally) on Permies that the same plant grown on different soils is going to have differing values of every thing that can possibly be tested for.

I consume comfrey leaf, but it is not a significant part of my diet. I would not depend on any one source for any one nutrient. I put the slime from comfrey root on on open wounds, just as I use aloe. I make comfrey extract to put in lotions and soap.

These IMO studies are fine, but their value is of limited worth. What I would need to see is data re what the toxic dose is, what the lethal dose is, in terms of miligrams or pounds per pounds of kilos of body weight consumed over what period of time. That would be specific data. "A particular alkaloid has been associated with liver toxicity, and that alkaloid was detected in comfrey" is not very useful.

The historical of the use of comfrey by humanity is not quantifiable, but the fact that settlers brought the plant with them means to me that it was deemed valuable enough to win a place when transportation was limited to wagons, sailing ships, horses, and walking.

Here is an excerpt from https://www.drugwatch.com/tylenol/


"Tylenol is not without its serious complications. It is the leading cause of acute liver failure in the United States, and the drug in some cases led to fatalities. The active ingredient in Tylenol, acetaminophen, accounts for more than 100,000 calls to poison centers, roughly 60,000 emergency-room visits and hundreds of deaths each year in the United States. In England, it is the leading cause of liver failure requiring transplants. In 2009, the FDA issued guidelines for adding overdose guidelines to packages and in 2011, the agency confirmed the link between the drug and liver damage."

I doubt there are this many deaths, ER visits, incidents of acute liver failure, needs for liver transplants related to comfrey.

At reasonable levels comfrey is at least as safe as tylenol. I think a person needs to exercise caution whenever ingesting anything. A part of that caution is giving consideration to the source of information re the substance they are considering ingesting.

People also used to use arsenic and organic mercury as treatments for various ailments. A great many such long-esteemed "remedies" are in fact deleterious, and the patient gets well (if they do) in spite of, not because of them.

The Physician's Desk Reference for Herbal Medicines is probably the most complete reference available. It includes toxicity studies where they've been done, and known drug interactions... both make for scary reading. And make no mistake, ALL "herbals" that actually do anything are DRUGS, and they need to be regarded as same, even those that are GRAS (Generally Recognized As Safe). One of the big problems is that often neither the mechanism nor the safe/effective dose has been determined, not to mention the variability (sometimes extreme) among cultivars and growing conditions.

http://www.comfreycentral.com/research/comfrey_pa.htm
http://www.comfreycentral.com/research/references.htm

Among the articles referenced:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8499322
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2062566

My training is biochemistry. I wouldn't touch this stuff with a ten foot pole. This isn't a "may damage", it's a "definitely does damage", and might be all that's saving you is that you haven't hit the point of cumulative liver damage that your body can no longer repair. And you may not notice any symptoms other than perhaps chronic fatigue or water retention.

BTW, when double-blind studies were finally done on aloe, lo and behold it does NOT encourage wound healing; in fact, aloe-treated wounds took three times as long to heal as wounds which were not treated. Which can be useful for burns (where you want slow healing to minimize scarring), not so much otherwise.

One point I'd like to bring up when discussing minimal or restrictive type diets........

What we eat has a direct bearing on the gut flora and fauna, which in turn has a bearing on our health, immune system, mental capabilities, emotional health, the whole works. Restricting the type and variety of foods also restricts the type and variety of microbes in our gut and their resulting consequences.

Rez Zircon wrote:This isn't a "may damage", it's a "definitely does damage", ....
BTW, when double-blind studies were finally done on aloe, lo and behold it does NOT encourage wound healing; in fact, aloe-treated wounds took three times as long to heal as wounds which were not treated. Which can be useful for burns (where you want slow healing to minimize scarring), not so much otherwise.

From the conclusions section of the pages linked: "Although not without merit, the comfrey research presented in the scientific literature has limited value in determining safety in humans for the following reasons:" and it goes on to give those reasons. If you are going to make a statement like it "definitely does damage", you should be able to show that.

I'm not certain what aloe has to do with this, but there is evidence that comfrey helps with wound healing. The pages you linked also discuss this.

The page I linked to was not professional opinion, but it in turn linked to actual studies.

Andrew Brock wrote:

Cj Sloane wrote:

It's hard to believe because we don't have 4 stomachs and the rest of our digestion is different.

luckily we don't eat grass and have access to a few thousand other plants species that can easily be digested by humans

But what if its the grass that the cows get their B12 from? What if their 4 stomachs is what let's them make/utilize B12? I thought your point was, if vegan cows can get B12 from plants, why can't we.

It's possible that there is some other mechanism. Maybe the cows get their B12 from the bugs on their fodder? After all, duck eggs have very high B12 and they consume a lot of bugs. I'm not totally opposed to eating bugs. I love shrimp and they are pretty darn bug-like.

Ruminants' digestive systems can break down cellulose. Humans can't. I suppose if you ate cow manure, you might ingest sufficient B12 that way, depending on how much the cow didn't absorb, but you might have to eat a LOT of manure. And you can encourage cellulose-digesting bacteria by eating a lot of fibre (which humans cannot natively digest, fibre being cellulose). However, encouraging cellulose-digesting bacteria is not a great idea in humans... in Dr.Eades' medical practice he found a high-fibre diet was THE major cause of acid reflux, and there's research suggesting that in a human gut, a fibre-loving bacteria population makes for a lot more absorbable sugars (cellulose breaks down into sugars) which in turn encourages weight gain and diabetes.

And cattle don't always get as much B12 as they really need -- nature doesn't always do optimal, sometimes it just does "survive long enough to reproduce".
http://mudgeevet.com.au/index.php/animal-information/cattle/15-vitamin-b12-and-improved-production-in-ruminants

Vitamin B12 defficiency occurs in people eating vegan diets after some time, and even vegetarian and conventional diet, if not properly balanced and well-cared for.

I think if you eat clams regularly, like once a week, you will fulffill the vitamin B12 needs. Bur first if you are already experiencing symptons, I would recommend to ask a doctor to prescibe you either vit B12 shots or a high quality vit B12 pills.
And perhaps you were too hard on yourself. Minimalistic diets often result in trouble.

I also grow much of my food, which is mostly vegetarian, but still I eat often eggs, fish, clams, yogurt, butter....
It´s good to grow our own food as fun, not to be too hard on ourselves and cause problems of any sort...

The kale coming in from my garden these days has a lot of aphids on it.  I've been making kale crisps in the oven and I just leave them on there.   (I try not to look)  Surely it is a  great source of B12, and with the robust flavors of the kale along with olive oil sesame and garlic, I don't think I'd taste them if I knew what to "look" for.

Thekla McDaniels wrote:The kale coming in from my garden these days has a lot of aphids on it.  I've been making kale crisps in the oven and I just leave them on there.   (I try not to look)  Surely it is a  great source of B12, and with the robust flavors of the kale along with olive oil sesame and garlic, I don't think I'd taste them if I knew what to "look" for.

Aphids are perfectly edible, and taste either sweet or like nothing much. (Yep, I've tasted them.) They can considerably reduce yields, especially in water-stressed plants, so I guess it's only fair that you eat them.

On the sugars in aphid honeydew -- interesting and fairly complex subject.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/030504919290153I
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230120302_Host_plant_and_ants_influence_the_honeydew_sugar_composition_of_aphids

I've never heard of kale crisps! Do tell!

Kale crisps or chips:
remove the center rib and stem, tear up kale leaves, toss in a little bit of olive oil, or your favorite fat, spread on a cookie sheet and put into the oven.  Bake at 350 F for about 20 minutes.  Bake till crispy but don't burn.

My first batch or two were "espresso roast" and they tasted great.  Before they go in the oven, I sprinkle with whole raw sesame seeds and salt.  I would like to try adding garlic, but haven't got that far yet.  Kale season is just barely here.

For your first batch or two, until you get the hang of it, I suggest checking frequently, maybe stirring, turning.  Once you know your oven and all, it does not need the frequent check.

One other thing, if you are buying kale, the frizzy kind is said to be easier.  I grow russian red kale which is a flat leaf, and that's what I  use.  I think you could fit more on the cookie sheet with the frizzy stand up kind, but flat leaf with aphids is what I have.

If you google recipe for kale chips you find more recipes and methods than you wanted.  It was the rage a few years ago.

Todd Parr wrote:What I am saying is that I don't believe that a vegetarian diet is healthy for anyone long term, and that I believe meat, or at least animal products like eggs, are absolutely essential for optimal human health.  I understand that we disagree about this, but I don't know a single vegan that is healthy and doesn't take supplements.

I have been vegan for 38 years. I am 57 now. I took some vitamins as a young vegan but have not done so for at least 20 years. I worked many years as a carpenter and did a lot of physical exercise (like yoga, mountain biking and sea kayaking), I can still do 5 pullups, 15 pushups and hand chop a pile of firewood every year. I have had my blood tested almost every year for the last 15 years or so and always asked about thyroid health, Vit B12, cholesterol, Vit. D, etc. Anything that I thought might be a "vegan" type problem. I've even paid extra for this or that test just to be sure. In all those tests the "ONLY" thing that was ever brought up as a possible problem was slightly high cholesterol for about 1 year. I eat a highly varied diet. I eat "organic" as much as I can. I drink Kombucha, I love sauerkraut. I don't eat Kale soup 3 times a day or anything weird like that. Probably the healthiest thing I do eat is a great breakfast every morning of oats, raisins, tofu, turmeric, cinnamon, ginger, banana, blueberries, flax meal, honey, and sometimes I have a glass of soymilk with molasses in it. I can still work hard and I am mentally sharp, my sex life is good and I am a happy person. Am I just "lucky", I don't think so. My family (8 siblings) has had it's share of medical problems like colitis, ovarian cancer, prostate cancer, heart valve replacements, etc., yet non of them live like I do. Proper diet and proper exercise go a long, long way. In my opinion...............

I just posted this on another thread but it deserves to be posted here too because my diet really is quite minimal in some respects.

I eat very, very few carbs. Moderate protein. High fat.

I recommend using a tracker like cronometer.com (free version is fine) if you are worried about deficiencies. I've found duck eggs and mushrooms to be quite nutrient dense. Add in coffee, butter, meat, and a little salsa and greens. That's it. I can eat this for months! I'll post pics below of the stats. The B12 stats in particular are crazy.


I've been on a high fat diet for 2 years now. I lost 30lbs and overall inflammation is dramatically reduced.

I would be shocked if anyone my age (almost 52) eating a plant based diet has numbers as good as mine - tho we may have different thoughts on what "good numbers" are.

My triglycerides are 43. Anything below 150 is considered good.
My HDL is 105. Anything greater than 40 is considered good.
My LDL is 132. The target # is 130 so I'm slightly high. However, when I first tested my cholesterol in 2013 my number was 140 but that was considered good. Why? Because they keep lowering the target number. A cynic might think this is to sell more statins.

At 6 months into this diet my LDL did rise dramatically to 230. But this was due to weight loss (my own animal fat being released into the blood stream). Now it has dropped below my original #.

I would say the bulk of my fat comes from butter or fatty cuts of meat. I do use lard I rendered from my own pig I raised.

BTW my protein consumption is fairly modest, around 65g/day. Carbs are extremely. 0-50.

What a long thread and I hope your health issues are sorted out meanwhile!
I like that you openly talk about you mishapps, most people only show the shiny side.
And you probably can very safely assume that you are not a worse gardener than anyone else here.
Simply put most of us did not grow up on a farm and spend most of our lifes as wage-slaves.
Then one day we decided a bit of self sufficiency would be a good idea, some fruit veggies and some eggs.
But of course we know little compared to oldtimers and we were probably not able to buy prime land (the one with all the nutrients and minerals).
One of the worst side of this self sufficientish thing are the milk and the eggs. Basically it boils down to who butchers.
Without this 'who butchers' question resolved you either feed some extra critters or spend money at the next butcher.
The cheapest option are offal and bones, this should give you all you need.
My take: try Albanian liver (make it nice and spicy) it is so yummy!
You can always invite someone over for a butchering dinner party...

Thank you, yes definitely doing better.

C Sanct wrote:If you're at a point where you're open to thinking a bit outside the box when it comes to nutrition and willing to consider some different viewpoints, then you might want to read the work of Dr. Ray Peat. One of his focuses is on the toxicity of PUFAs (Poly Unsaturated Fatty Acids) and this goes against the mainstream notion that unsaturated fats like omega-3s are healthy. It's a very contrarian outlook, but it comes from a scientific and honest position. I think it's at least worth a look.

How much fruit do you eat? High quality fruit for the most part is extremely safe food. Roots and fruits don't have the plant toxins found in above ground leaves and seeds. I've heard that if treated as a staple food, fruit can sometimes provide the required macro and micro nutrients. It can be surprisingly sufficient in mineral content if grown well.

More and more I'm becoming intrigued by the idea of top quality homegrown tropical and subtropical high calorie fruits as being a nearly perfect food in it's own right. Add milk to that and you've potentially got a really good thing going. Our ancestors knew to pair fruit and dairy together. Apparently fructose aids in the assimilation of calcium from milk or cheese.

I think also just following your instinctual cravings and first inclinations on what your body needs at the moment would probably help point you in the right direction instead of just shotgunning with diversity. Check out Ray Peat though

I have tried this diet and it was the worse thing I have ever tried for my health! It works for a very minimum number of people having a fast metabolism. Or else you are bound to a spiral of taking this to compensate that. RP followers often take thyroid extract, niacinamide, methylene blue, have to drink coffee. Is also often used cyproheptadine and aspirine. Everybody is considered to have hypothyroids when having health issues.

Staple food are orange juice, milk, white sugar, more gelatine than muscle meat, liver, and hydrogenated coconut oil, hagendaaz ice cream and coca cola or similar, and gelatine taken as gummy bears or powder that they put in their coffee. Veggies are a daily raw carrot salad and white button mushrooms and bamboo shoots.

PUFAs are so much considered as the devil that you are even supposed to not eat berries because of their seeds, and limit avocados. The only allowed nut is macadamia.

I tried the diet in a very health food way, I mean no sugar nor UHT milk, only local fruits, mainly mine, mainly tropical, and fresh raw goat cheese, and all organic. I went lower in meat as I went higher in cheese, I went higher in coconut oil and lower on olive oil. When eating more fruits, vegetable become less tasty and apetizing. I wanted to boost my metabolism and be efficient at burning sugar, which I have never been. I insisted 2 years as I loved eating a lot of fruits and cheese, so easy too!

Result is that I had to eat each time more often, and my cortisol receptors were getting mad... I did a fast to solve this and it worked. High carb was also supposed to help getting rid of my hot flushes, but actually they went away when I left the diet, and the result was quick, in a few days. I had become nearly dependent on coffee, and now I do not need it anymore.

I also had some pains at gall bladder level, as coconut oil does not stimulate bile, so does not help detoxing. I solved this by coming back to olive oil, and did a cure of orange juice with olive oil every morning!

Also, after years without having any ORL issues, I got 3 bronchitis in a year, and the second was so terrible in august 2016, that it took me 1 year to recover. That is why I have not been active on the forum too. I am still tired but much better and back in the garden. I had gotten rid of these issues in the past by suppressing both sugar and dairies.... Well, even with fruits, raw honey and goat cheese that I have always been ok with, that did not work.

Fortunately, a guy in the Ray Peat forum came to say that this diet was only for fast oxidizers, and advised for hair test at ARL or trace elements, according to Paul Eck theories. I came out as a slow oxidizer, no surprise, and with not enough copper for the zinc ratio, and some aluminium that might take place of magnesium. My calcium to phsphorus ratio is not correct either, and I have too much calcium compared to phosphorus.

This showed also, through mineral ratios, that my adrenals were having a hard time, which also impacts thyroid, but no way, nobody should supplement for thyroid before taking care of adrenals! I also got the same conclusion from an organic acid urine test, showing that i process fats much better than sugar, as I make lactic acid.

In the mineral balancing theory, ratios are more important than amounts, and they advise both food choices and supplements. For my type of fatigue with slow metabolism, high protein was advised, as they are super important for liver detox and making hormones by the body. So I got a super good and fast result with a sort of paleo diet with not too much nuts, and sea shells for copper, and liver too. Then I follow my instinct too, and actually it resulted that I went very high in raw food. I also juice, appart from big salads from the garden and several eggs per day.

Ha, and I went high in acid for both liver and facilitating digestion, with loads of apple vinegar and soaked food in orange and lemon juice.

Last, here is what I kept from Ray Peat:
- The raw grated carrot, usually 1st thing in the morning with cider vinegar and olive oil.
- Mushrooms have to be eaten cooked, and they are good for intestine.
- If you do not digest oranges well, try to juice them and filter the juice. If that is better, it means you have a problem with raw pectine. For me it works, and I have the juice, and can have the rest cooked!
- Do not eat products that have carraghenan or beans extract as stabilizers, all are gums, a type of carb that can make problems in your guts.
- And of course the big one: do not use PUFA oil! But you can keep, though raypeaters are against this, the seeds, with a very reasonable use I let you decide!
- Omega 3 are not as bad as omega 6, but they tend to suppress the immune system, thus some good results in some cases.
I still believe the ratio is important (hemp seed is the most balanced), as we cannot anyway suppress all PUFAs, as there are some in all high saturated fat products.

And what I knew already but Peat says the same:
- All nuts have to be super fresh and never oxidized.
- Go for saturated fats, they are good for you!
- I am off gluten, and it is good to check this yourself, as my tests all said I was fine. And if you are better off gluten, very often you are better off most statches (persorbtion problem in the gut). In that case fruits make sense, if you have no problem with fructose and if you do not go too high. If a fast oxidizer, then you can go high in fruits and sugar and you will gain from this.

If you want to know if you are a fast oxidizer (high capacity to burn fuel), who are a minority in adults,
- let's say that you have the activity of children: you really NEED to run and exercise. If you are in need only after coffee, then mostly it orients you to being slow...
- you are not likely to be depressed but anxious.
- You are doing bad on fasts, and even intermitent fasting.

Rez Zircon wrote:

Thekla McDaniels wrote:The kale coming in from my garden these days has a lot of aphids on it.  I've been making kale crisps in the oven and I just leave them on there.   (I try not to look)  Surely it is a  great source of B12, and with the robust flavors of the kale along with olive oil sesame and garlic, I don't think I'd taste them if I knew what to "look" for.

Aphids are perfectly edible, and taste either sweet or like nothing much. (Yep, I've tasted them.) They can considerably reduce yields, especially in water-stressed plants, so I guess it's only fair that you eat them.

On the sugars in aphid honeydew -- interesting and fairly complex subject.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/030504919290153I
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230120302_Host_plant_and_ants_influence_the_honeydew_sugar_composition_of_aphids

I've never heard of kale crisps! Do tell!

Ho yes! Eating insects is on my plan list! Glad to know this about aphids!
Can we eat the fat white flufy cochinillas? I know the red they give is ok as food, but...

About crisps:
lol you americans BAKE TOO MUCH! Heat destroys especially proteins in food! You need to eat more when it is that much cooked. Lower heat, cook less, cook fish in non boiling water, make hard eggs in very warm water but non boiling, etc. It is a big change towards sustainability, as you need less to have more nutrition.

I like to combine frugality with the best quality foods.. Used to be a longterm vegan, was eating a bit of grains, but mostly fruits and veg and root veg. The problem with too much veg is all that fiber, lost weight and got severe mood swings (serious lack of vitamins/minerals found only in animal foods),  veg are actually not that nourishing... Sure, if you live on bread and dairy, than you need  your veggies.
But I don't eat gluten not dairy, and so... I am looking for high calories foods that are wholesome, tasty, natural and packed with nutrition and not too hard to digest. I do use quite a lot of herbs in my food, but these have tended to replace all theses fibery, bulky vegetable that I don't crave anymore. I do still eat veg, but in much smaller amount (and mostly "fruit" veg such as cucumber, pumpkin, squash, tomatoes), but mostly, I do eat lots and of fruits...
People have different metabolisms, some can eat loads of animals protein and do well, and I thrive on a relatively high sugar diet (based on fruits, and also starches like pumpkin, potatoes, sweet potatoes), and low protein but I still need my animal protein/fats (but no dairy for me!!)... There is not a single tribe that have lived on vegan foods alone... that does not exist in nature. Even so called "vegan" wild animals have been observed eating small animals: a deer eating a bird, also, a goat in a farm eating a live baby chick...
There are tons of possibilities out there: squirrels, worms, bugs, small fishes... The colder the climate, the less bugs on offer... so, adapt to you environment.
Btw, if you want B12, liver has it... but, do not eat too much of it, liver should eaten only once in a while...

Lana Weldon wrote:I like to combine frugality with the best quality foods.. Used to be a longterm vegan, was eating a bit of grains, but mostly fruits and veg and root veg. The problem with too much veg is all that fiber, lost weight and got severe mood swings (serious lack of vitamins/minerals found only in animal foods),  ...  I thrive on a relatively high sugar diet (based on fruits, and also starches like pumpkin, potatoes, sweet potatoes), and low protein

Get checked for Hashimoto's thyroiditis. Sounds like it's already to where the phytoestrogens (which are thyroid suppressors) in plants are a serious problem (regularly-occurring bad mood swings are usually due to abnormal thyroid fluctuation). Low thyroid directly causes a preference for carbs and especially sugar, because the brain is starving for sugar, and our diet is more instinct-driven than we'd like to believe (abnormal cravings are the body's way of trying to cope with biochemical upset). It can take years to reach the clinical stage but the longer it goes untreated the more damage is done, and it is eventually fatal: High blood cholesterol and "heart disease" are usually due to low thyroid; so is high blood pressure.

Lana Weldon wrote:There is not a single tribe that have lived on vegan foods alone... that does not exist in nature. Even so called "vegan" wild animals have been observed eating small animals: a deer eating a bird, also, a goat in a farm eating a live baby chick...

Right. Plants (carb + fiber) are basically a starvation diet that some animals are better-adapted to use, but it also puts sharp limits on brain development, because it's not sufficiently nutrient-dense to support a large brain. I've personally observed sheep eating an old lamb carcass, and there's nothing horses like better than dry dog food (which contains meat and is therefore a more-concentrated protein source than hay). All rodents and most birds like meat if they can get it, to the point of being readily cannibalistic.

Animals are made of protein and fat, not of carbs/fibre. What do you think is the most efficient nutrient base for maintaining that? It's not coincidence that the two apes (gorillas and orangs) that are more herbivorous and whose guts have adapted to this are also the only ones in danger of extinction, because they can no longer adapt to changing conditions. The herbivore is a devolved state of the carnivore, not the other way around (note that many herbivores still have ancestral fangs -- a tooth adapted for holding onto prey). It's the evolutionary dead end. Carnivores and omnivores can survive ice ages. Herbivores, not so much.

Lana Weldon wrote: I do still eat veg, but in much smaller amount (and mostly "fruit" veg such as cucumber, pumpkin, squash, tomatoes), but mostly, I do eat lots and of fruits...
People have different metabolisms, some can eat loads of animals protein and do well, and I thrive on a relatively high sugar diet (based on fruits, and also starches like pumpkin, potatoes, sweet potatoes), and low protein but I still need my animal protein/fats (but no dairy for me!!)...
Btw, if you want B12, liver has it... but, do not eat too much of it, liver should eaten only once in a while...

https://www.hackstasis.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=252 This link gives you the different possibilities of different metabolism. If you thrive on high sugar and lower proteins, you can be among the fast metabolism people.
I am slow 1 with slow metabolism and need high protein reasonable sugar and fat and lots of veggies and not much fruits.

I take beef liver for having more copper than zinc, as noted in my imbalance of those minerals in my hair analysis. The balance of copper and zinc is super important, and blood test, appart from being more expensive for these minerals, give blood levels, not tissue level, and my ratios were the reverse in the 2 analysis! Hair level represent tissue levels.

Rez Zircon wrote:
Get checked for Hashimoto's thyroiditis. Sounds like it's already to where the phytoestrogens (which are thyroid suppressors) in plants are a serious problem (regularly-occurring bad mood swings are usually due to abnormal thyroid fluctuation).

Yes, good suggestion, and hashi needs no gluten no dairy, but when already on this diet, analysis can give a false result! As it is based on antibodies.

MIND one thing! There is no thyroid problem alone, metabolism depend as much on adrenals as on thyroid. Have a look at metabolic types, and they are related to mineral balance. And underneath there is the ANS....

Lana Weldon wrote:There is not a single tribe that have lived on vegan foods alone... that does not exist in nature. Even so called "vegan" wild animals have been observed eating small animals: a deer eating a bird, also, a goat in a farm eating a live baby chick...

Rez Zircon wrote:Right. Plants (carb + fiber) are basically a starvation diet that some animals are better-adapted to use, but it also puts sharp limits on brain development, because it's not sufficiently nutrient-dense to support a large brain. I've personally observed sheep eating an old lamb carcass, and there's nothing horses like better than dry dog food (which contains meat and is therefore a more-concentrated protein source than hay). All rodents and most birds like meat if they can get it, to the point of being readily cannibalistic.

Agree too. And ruminants can ferment fiber... And they eat insects if their grass is really untreated! Be careful, herbivores are attracted by cereals in dog food and are lured. Same as dogs are lured into eating cereals they do not need... I have had a lamb and puppies changing their bowls just to try what looked so good to the others!
Fruits eaters should also eat bugs!

Rez Zircon wrote:The herbivore is a devolved state of the carnivore, not the other way around (note that many herbivores still have ancestral fangs -- a tooth adapted for holding onto prey). It's the evolutionary dead end. Carnivores and omnivores can survive ice ages. Herbivores, not so much.

I am not so sure about all that can be said through teeth... and not so sure all animals once were carnivores, as anyway, omnivores cannot survive ice age if herbivores do not!!! What would they eat?

Rez Zircon wrote:Animals are made of protein and fat, not of carbs/fibre. What do you think is the most efficient nutrient base for maintaining that?

Proteins are needed for amino acids for glutathione for detox, and also for endocrine system and more, much more, not only to make our bodies. That is why not only growing children need enough proteins. Adults too, but not the same ratio according to your metabolism.