beyond paleo - for health and weight loss

I see you want to stay away from factory farmed meat. I'm surprised there aren't more local options in TX.

Also, some items seem more expensive than they really are. One of my favorite lunches is smoked salmon with avocado, which isn't as pricey as it sounds. 2 oz of salmon & half an avocado is what - $3 or 4? It only gets expensive when my teenaged kids raid my stash and eat everything in sight!

I have trouble with the term 'grass fed beef'. While it should make me feel more comfortable in buying my beef, it doesn't because the term is too loose. Almost all beef raised in this country is grass fed. At least for a portion of their lives. However, most of it is finished on grains. Meat producers want to fatten up their product before it hits the scale. The claim is that grain finishing adds a desirable marbling to the meat.

Much of the meat marketed as 'grass fed' has not seen a green blade of grass for ages. And as a technicality, all cereals are a product of grass. So, if they are feeding cereal, they are feeding 'grass'. I believe that there needs to be a more distinct and binding definition of the term 'grass fed' before it can be trusted, and not just a marketing tool. Marketers will quickly grasp onto any catch word that can increase their bottom line.

I have seen beef promoted as grass fed, grass finished. That does make me feel a little more comfortable.

Re: intermittent fasting: the difference between men and women has been sorely under-reported.

I found an article about a month ago discussing the difference between male and female responses to IF. I can only find this one, but it's covering the same info.

I think it's reasonable to say that women probably did less IF in paleo times. Mens' IF was probably while hunting large game, while women continued on their daily routine with small game and gathering. Maintaining breast milk, pregnancy, and the diets of the young, old, and infirm probably didn't demand situational/intermittent fasting, but quite the opposite.

I recently read (and cannot find the link) that we should not starve the candida (nor overfeed it!), that we should feed it a little to keep if from sending it's hyphae into our flesh to eat. The article mentioned then using coconut oil and something else (another food product, probably a probiotic) to kill the candida. *shrug* I don't know. If I find it I'll update the post.

I strongly encourage reading about GAPS, I think of it as slightly more refined than paleo with a goal of healing instead of maintenance, but basically the same food. Once you're healed via GAPS, you can then use the info from WAPF to add foods generally thought of as damaging, but traditionally prepared, back into your diet as your body allows via the easy GAPS sensitivity test.

At the very least, probiotics are available in as supplements for those who cannot tolerate or enjoy fermented foods.

Clover Love wrote:Re: intermittent fasting: the difference between men and women has been sorely under-reported.

There's been an upsurge recently:
http://www.bulletproofexec.com/a-bad-combination-for-women-intermittent-fasting-and-paleo/
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/women-and-intermittent-fasting/#axzz1zmU5qRkV

"Candida" is a nice buzzword - few people who claim they have it have been properly diagnosed.
Attempting to kill it with a zero-carb approach is as problematic as recommendations that call for the elimination of 'bad carbs' like rice and consumption of high-fiber vegetables.

Michael Radelut wrote:
Attempting to kill it with a zero-carb approach is as problematic as recommendations that call for the elimination of 'bad carbs' like rice and consumption of high-fiber vegetables.

Why?

Because you could be throwing your immune system out of whack and feeding the very SIBO you're trying to get rid of.

I should have been clearer in my question.

What is the mechanism that could throw the immune system off by eating extremely low carbs? My friend trying to kill the candida eats tons of high fiber veggies as long as the aren't "sweet."

The flip side is why weren't the immune systems of cultures (Inuit, Great Plains Native Americans) that ate that way thrown out of whack?

At this point I'm fairly suspicious of studies. It takes too much work to determine if they are valid, randomized, double blind and so on.

If you're providing a large amount of indigestible fiber to the flora of a damaged gut, chances are it'll mainly be used by bacterial strains you don't really want - the "bad" flora usually outgrows the good.

Of course you can still thrive on a large amount of fibrous vegetables, but that depends on the state of your gut flora - which is bound to be different from that of someone who's never even seen a bag of corn flakes in his life. (I doubt whether Inuit ate much fiber btw.)

As said before, Paul Jaminet's book explains this all much better than I ever could.


It's another case of n=1:
If fibrous vegetables pass your intestines without causing bloating, by all means eat them !

If not, you know what to do:
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.de/2012/03/fruit-and-vegetables.html

Michael Radelut wrote:
If not, you know what to do:
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.de/2012/03/fruit-and-vegetables.html

I'm with you on the high fat deal but this sound like the opposite of what you said???

Attia/Taubes say veggies/fiber is fine but not necessary (i.e the nutritional case for high fiber is weak). I think that protein power guy is on the same page too.

So... with minimal fruit/veggies, high fat, medium protein... that is a very low carb diet. I thought you wrote that kind of diet would screw up you immune system?

That's where what Paul Jaminet calls 'safe starches' come in.
They provide the glucose you body needs for immune function, mucus production etc., and at the same time have a low fiber load.

Whether you do well on a diet that includes them all is something you need to find out, but in general proper preparation (hulling, peeling, soaking, cooking) will make them almost toxin-free and easily digestible. ('Easily digestible' being a good thing here.)

Jaminet specifies the average amount the body needs on a daily basis and bases his macronutrient ratio on that.
The difficulty for someone like me who is fully fat-adapted and doesn't have any weight to lose is then actually to remember to eat enough carbs - which I'll gladly do because that buckwheat pancake (drowned in tallow) is just so much tastier than a bloody salad !

Gary Taubes is out with his take on that study mentioned earlier -that people who eat low carb burn 300 more calories / day.

What really makes us fat

Mark Bittman's take on the same study is a bit different:

Which Diet Works?

But not so fast; the “Atkins” diet also had marked problems. It raised levels of CRP (c-reactive protein), which is a measure of chronic inflammation, and cortisol, a hormone that mediates stress. “Both of these,” says Ludwig, “are tightly linked to long term-heart risk and mortality.”

His conclusion, then? “The ‘Atkins’ diet gives you the biggest metabolic benefit initially, but there are long-term downsides, and in practice, people have trouble sticking to low-carb diets. Over the long term, the low-glycemic diet appears to work the best, because you don’t have to eliminate an entire class of nutrients, which our research suggests is not only hard from a psychological perspective but may be wrong from a biological perspective.”

The problem with this statement is that it is speculative. The study observed 1 month on each of the diets and the conclusion is based on the [non-observed] long term. Taubes & Attia are trying to get some long term studies going because they suspect that some of those chronic inflammation figures don't apply the same way if your eating LC.

The common take away - stick to low glycemic foods.

It gets even more complicated:

There are certain Paleo enthusiasts who are paying enormous attention to their blood sugar - which continues to rise even further whenever they try high glycemic foods again, simply because they're training themselves to be extremely insulin sensitive ...

And there's also the kind of people who'll be at risk of stressing themselves and develop high cortisol levels, because they've launched themselves into the Paleo lifestyle, are starting to train like mad, but eat VLC.

And then there's people like Paul Jaminet who like to remind people that rises in blood sugar are there for a reason, that to have them is normal, but that the extent to which they are dominating the life of modern humans isn't.

Neither the 'low carb' nor the 'low glycemic' moniker is very helpful; I try to stick to Jaminet's definition of 'high fat, moderate carb, moderate protein'.

I can speak from personal experience about low carb and paleo diets.

5 years ago I was 6'5" and probably over 350lbs, (who honestly goes out of their way to find a scale big enough when they weigh that much)
I began a low carb diet shortly after starting a new job (computer helpdesk) which meant some movement around a large campus, but no other exercise.
I began dropping weight at a decent rate and continued to lose weight while my wife was pregnant (ice cream cravings & all)
My diet was pretty normal lowcarb no bread, no pasta, no fruit. No cheating at all, I learned the hard way previously that a slice of pizza would make me flushed and have a crash afterward.
I then plateaued around 290lbs due to the continued excessive amount of calories I was in taking.
Job promotion to server admin, which means almost 8 hours in front of the computer.
Then I discovered Paleo, paleo meant I could eat fruits and all I had to do was give up legumes (snacking on peanuts had been a crutch while low carb)
I started eating 2 apples a day, (1 each coffee break) and maintaining 3 square means and trying to cut down on night snacking. Which was switched to only tree nuts (almonds, pecans, occasionally walnuts)
I found that this evened out my blood sugar and gave me the will power to reduce my portion sizes a bit and continue to lose weight.
Dropped down under 240lbs.
Tried a 14 reboot juice fast, while supplementation with whey protein shakes as mean replacements, I lost 10 lbs.
Started exercising about 8 months ago and joined a gym 2 months ago and go 3 days a week in the mornings
Currently weigh somewhere under 230.
This past weekend I saw a coworker from my previous job, she blurted out "oh my gosh you're skinny"

Best advice, work on a percentage system, ie: try to eat 80% paleo

Drink lots of fluids, I don't like plain water, so I drink lots of tea, without sugar.
Morning coffee with stevia,
green tea at work
mint tea at lunch
roobios or other decaf in the afternoons and evenings.

Since I have a desk job, I avoid lots of fruits during the day so that I don't get the tired feeling about 1 1/2 hours after eating when you're blood sugar drops back down.

Going Paleo makes introducing things like intermittent fasting easier, because you won't get the blood sugar headaches from not eating.


Recommended reference sites:
http://everydaypaleo.com/
everydaypaleo podcast/
http://www.dietdoctor.com/

Cj Verde wrote:
Costco has good prices on some organic/grass fed meat.

I'm not convinced organic is the same as grassfed, though it is better than non-organic.

Really I would like my husband to shoot some deer, and he's working up to it.

We won't eat our sheep because they are pets.

Jocelyn Campbell wrote:
Currently, I'm intrigued by Dave Asprey with the bulletproof diet website and recent podcast with Joel Salatin. Asprey thinks his diet is basically "paleo + science" due to his "bio-hacking" research.

I just glanced at the graphic for the bulletproof diet and it seems pretty close to what I practice already, except I avoid the sugar alcohol sweeteners because of the bloating and gas that they give me.
I tend to try and avoid substitute "paleo" versions of mainstream foods and simple stick to meat & salad for most meals.

Tyler Ludens wrote:

Really I would like my husband to shoot some deer, and he's working up to it.

Last year I purchased a deer rifle and a copy of The Beginners Guide to Hunting Deer for food
Unfortunately for me my scope rattled loose while walking through the bush and I missed my shot.
Although this might be better in its own thread, the author of the above book has a new book coming out about eating invasive species, his blog is at http://rule-303.blogspot.ca/

I think you will find that everyone has their own ideas about what to eat or what not to eat. In the end, you just have to find out what works for you. I lost 30 pounds and have kept it off for 3 years by eating the opposite of a Paleo diet. I am not against that diet - it is just not for me. I weigh 155-165 lbs, which fluctuates based upon the time of year. I exercise randomly and I don't count calories. I eat meat once or twice a week. I eat lots of grains, nuts, fruit, and beans - but seldom soy except in my coffee and my cereal as milk and tofu a couple times a month. When I eat meat, it is the best quality I can find in my area. I spend a long time cooking & preparing it, and try to rotate the cuts. Most of the time it is the cheaper cuts (beef roasts, whole cornish hens, chicken thighs, etc.).

I don't eat dairy. I don't eat pork. I do eat pie - just not lots of it

Find what works for you by feeling what works for you - that is my advice.

Tim

I guess another way to describe what I am saying is that Permaculture is holistic. You can apply it to diet as well. Observe, interact, observe, interact. As for what works for you, Paul puts it best when he talks about individual Permaculture situations - it depends. Just like not overgrazing small properties, some plants not growing well in certain locations or certain times of the year, or any other farm situation - diet is similar. People have different genetics, living styles, activity levels, stress levels, food reactions, or physical limitations.

Tyler Ludens wrote:
Really I would like my husband to shoot some deer, and he's working up to it.
We won't eat our sheep because they are pets.

I have noticed that I've begun to regard more and more animals - and animals parts - as food since adopting this diet.
The head I recently purchased had its eyes removed. I'll ask for them to be included next time.

Just want to thank everyone again for their info, input and links. Just this morning, I read even more the links provided--meaty stuff. (pun unintended )

From eating higher (good) fat, lots of protein (grassfed meats & eggs), and veggies as my primary (and low) carbs, plus increasing my exercise, I'm down 15 pounds so far. (Though my initial weigh in might have been inflated a few pounds.) Still have a ways to go, but thought I'd share some progress!

Weight is continuing to come off from following this beyond paleo way of eating - yes.

Here is what has helped fill me up and keep me from overeating when I get an inexplicable emptiness in the gut: a variation on this healthier version of frosting shots.



I make it a bit different and often simpler than Katie. I scoop the fat from a can of Thai Kitchen organic coconut milk, saving the remaining coconut water for other uses (this brand does work the best IMHO, too), put it in a bowl and whisk in powdered stevia (start with 1 packet per can) and about a teaspoon of vanilla. I find it glorious to use with fresh fruit. Or, I have used the cocoa powder and powdered stevia as well - yum. I find that in my climate, the fat is almost always solid upon opening the can, but mixing in the sweeteners and flavors softens it considerably, so I like to refrigerate after mixing to get it back to a lovely, decadent consistency.

Frickin' amazing treat in just minutes.

I'm posting here, and not in the cooking forum, because while this little fat blast satiates me far better than any starchy foods, and eliminates any cravings I might have had, the coconut milk does not seem very sustainable. I'm thinking, and as many of you have also suggested with some of your examples here, that when raising (or wild harvesting) one's own meat animals, tallow would make far more sense to use in my region than coconut fat.

Which reminds me. Years ago, I heard that a favorite food of the indigenous folks in the Alaskan regions was what the white people called "Eskimo ice cream." It was/is whale blubber mixed with berries. (Then, when whale blubber became unavailable, the natives started using the white people's shortening for their favorite treat and they developed heart disease which until then, was unheard of in their populations.)

So, I'm wondering if anyone has experimented with tallow or lard for something like the frosting shots or "Eskimo ice cream." Simple is always a bonus, too.

Late to this party, wondering how it's going for you Jocelyn? Is Beyond Paleo a reference to Chris Kresser's work? He the best IMHO. For candida issues I hear that the GAPS diet is best.

My experience backs up the preferential substrate concept shared by Robb Wolf (or maybe it was Dr. Mike Eades, maybe both). Too lazy to find a link but is goes like this: once folks go very low carb for a couple weeks they can get their body to switch over to mostly burning fat (and ketones) as opposed to sugar. This allows one's blood sugar and triglyceride levels to become more stable and prompts the body to catabolize stored fat. Later, one can slowly add carbs back into the mix without having their body switch back into sugar-burning mode. Everyone's mileage will vary on how much and how soon - experimenting is fun, the mirror gives me better feedback than the scale.

After 5 years paleo my routine is heavy raw cream in my morning coffee and a small whack of protein around 1pm (usually leftovers). Then I eat a big paleo dinner and stop by 8pm, only water after. A huge salad with GF beef and grilled veggies on top is typical. I used to have horrible hay fever allergies, but they are minimal now. Raw milk vs. cooked milk makes a big difference for me.

If you like podcasts, Latest in Paleo by Angelo Coppola is good, though I must admit (like Angelo) I focus much more on family than following diet stuff now.

Thanks for asking, Mike. Sounds like you have a great routine going and some healthy knowledge in this space. Late last year I lost quite a bit of weight just by reducing my starchy carbs, increasing fats, and without any exercising. Then the holidays happened. So....I've been working on regaining lost ground. I'm about back on track now.

Been seeing comments here and there that the ketosis or fat burning mode might have more potential for rebound in women, which I guess one could say is what I did over the holidays. So your comments about adding back in carbs are interesting. Though frankly, I have not invested a lot of time into learning more just yet.

I do think it might be worthwhile for me to try the GAPS, or circle back to some re-balancing efforts of one kind or another. Other priorities are overriding those kinds of efforts for the time being.

Right now, I'm far less hungry, more alert and less spacey, more energetic and less achy if I keep my starchy carbs very, very low and eat plenty of fats. Some lovely folks made me an absolutely beautiful vegan lunch a few weeks back and it was so low protein (and low fat) that I felt incredibly weak afterwards - like my leg muscles had no juice to operate. Which is all to say that I am pretty committed to my paleo eating ways.

I am craving more physical activity - mostly because I want to be able to take a lovely hike or such without huffing and puffing and sweating like crazy. Plus, a healthier, more toned body and quicker slimming down are nice side effects, too. Unfortunately, I keep putting other things higher on the list than exercising. Though now that it's officially spring, getting outside and away from the computer sounds even better still.

Leila Rich wrote:Jocelyn, do you avoid dairy because of lactose, or for other reasons? I think even severely lactose-intolerant people can eat fermented milk products like yoghurt, as the irritating lactose has been converted to lactase by lactobaccili bacteria.
Many lactose-intolerant people can drink straight raw milk too. Raw milk is high-protein, high-fat, high-all sorts of good stuff and I'd suggest giving it another try.
Lacto-fermenting even makes grains (reasonably) digestable

I've read a number of articles stating that the dairy products nowadays are not pure as they used to. Some cows are genetically manipulated to produce more milk which makes it more scary to indulge in dairy products. We don't know what kind of genetic mutation these cows have undergone.

Paleo doesn't work for everyone.

Last year my parents decided to go on the Paleo diet in order to lose the weight they gained over the holidays. For the first time ever, my dad started having trouble being able to bike to work. In addition, my mom felt more miserable than ever. I had to explain to them that carbs = energy, and they were bonking (google the term if you don't know what that is), and dad would be much better off if he started eating carbs again and continued to bike to work. Carbs are only bad (i.e. get converted to fat) if you don't ever move your body. If you do work out, carbs get converetd to glycogen, which is the first source of energy your body goes for when it moves. Only after the glycogen levels are full does the body start converting carbs into fat. On top of that, glycogen is stored in muscles, so the more muscles you have, the more glycogen you can store, meaning you can eat more carbs before gaining fat. So, want to eat that pie? Go for it, just get in the habit of working out in addition to eating pie.

Tom OHern wrote:Paleo doesn't work for everyone.

Last year my parents decided to go on the Paleo diet in order to lose the weight they gained over the holidays. For the first time ever, my dad started having trouble being able to bike to work. In addition, my mom felt more miserable than ever. I had to explain to them that carbs = energy, and they were bonking (google the term if you don't know what that is), and dad would be much better off if he started eating carbs again and continued to bike to work. Carbs are only bad (i.e. get converted to fat) if you don't ever move your body. If you do work out, carbs get converetd to glycogen, which is the first source of energy your body goes for when it moves. Only after the glycogen levels are full does the body start converting carbs into fat. On top of that, glycogen is stored in muscles, so the more muscles you have, the more glycogen you can store, meaning you can eat more carbs before gaining fat. So, want to eat that pie? Go for it, just get in the habit of working out in addition to eating pie.

In order to reap the benefits of paleo, a lot of people have to go through a detox period. Many people report feeling shitty for the first week or 2 (sometimes up to a month) after switching over to a paleo diet. This is mainly due to the fact that your body is switching over from carbs to fats as the main source of fuel. Your body stores toxins in your fat cells and when your body starts to learn to burn fat, it will start tapping into those fat reserves that contain those toxins. It is definitely a type of detox and that is most likely why they didn't feel very good right after they switched.

Jocelyn Campbell wrote:Currently, I'm intrigued by Dave Asprey with the bulletproof diet website and recent podcast with Joel Salatin. Asprey thinks his diet is basically "paleo + science" due to his "bio-hacking" research.

I cannot recommend the work that Dave Asprey is doing enough! The amount of knowledge contained inside that guy's brain is simply unbelievable. He was the first person EVER to sell anything on the internet back in the early 90s. He's been at the head of several Fortune 500 companies and currently is the VP at some big internet security firm while also running a couple non-profits. The amount of success this guy has achieved for only being in his early 40s is a true testament to his recommendations for a healthier diet. And the best part is there's no dogma, preconceived notions or misleading information. All the information he presents is thoroughly vetted and researched. He can completely dissect any scientific study and find all the subtle implications, while pointing out any flaws that may have skewed the results.

If anyone hasn't yet, you MUST check out the Bulletproof Executive Radio podcast (you can find it on iTunes). Start with episode #1 and work your way up from there (you may have to go to the website in order to get the first few podcasts since iTunes only allows a certain amount). The facts he presents simply cannot be disproved with our current scientific understanding. Not saying his way is the best way, but is probably the best way any human has come up with so far. At the same time, he happily recognizes that new information will eventually come to light and, like he has in the past, he will modify his recommendations accordingly.

His podcast with Joel Salatin would be a GREAT one to start out with for the people around here

Victor Johanson wrote:Investigate IF (Intermittent Fasting). It basically consists of eating within an 8 hour window, and not eating for the remaining 16 hours of each day. For me, this means skipping breakfast, eating lunch around noon, and not eating after 8PM or so. Adopting a mostly paleo approach to food, eschewing excessive carbs, and relying on quality animal protein and fat for primary caloric intake had already produced rapid and noticeable results, but incorporating IF principles really did the trick. One thing I like about it is I an still eat until I'm full without worrying about weight gain. The idea is to rearrange the eating schedule, not the quantity. This strategy is believed to vastly improve insulin sensitivity, and also to prevent overgrowth of harmful gut flora by not continually feeding it. I've experimented with lots of things over the years, and this produced the most impressive results of all--and it's easy; no calorie counting or obsessing over diets. In my mid '30s, I got up to about 230 (I'm 6'2"); now (at 54) I stick at 180-185 without even thinking about it. I also don't get that postprandial 'brain fog' anymore, and have way more energy.

Some consider IF an aspect of the paleo diet, since early man didn't have clocks and established meal times. I actually ate like this throughout my teenage years--slept in instead of eating breakfast, and then skipped lunch so I could use the money for other stuff (it was the day of cigarette machines :-) . When I joined the Army at 18, I weighed all of 148#. Then I started eating like everyone else and had to struggle against weight gain.

More info:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermittent_fasting
www.leangains.com/

Give it a shot. You'll be amazed.

I have been messing around with IF. I dig it. I think IF does give me a little growth hormone boost. I now IF sounds crazy, however paleo was extreme just a short while ago. I think Paleo and Premaculture go hand and hand. Eating paleo was my motivation to start my own small sheep flock. Grass feed meats are crazy high. Having the side effects, of cutting a heck of a lot less grass is nice also. I believe I have at least a years worth of sweet potatoes in the ground for my family, and the little (sweet potatoes) I will give to the sheep along with winter hay. Life is good.

What about adding cold thermogenesis?

You can read about it on Mark's Daily apple or you can google it.

I have always loved going outside barefoot and in shorts and a t shirt in the winter here..although I'm not a swimmer so I don't swim in cold ponds like some do..or do the polar plunges. I love the snow on my barefeet.

I walk every morning and as long as it is in the 40's I don't ware a jacket, just shorts and a t shirt..if there is a cold rain I'll don a jacket..I walked in the rain yesterday in shorts and a t shirt and my husband got all worried and drove to pick me up..don't believe in arguing so I let him drive me home..but I was lovin the rain.

I've also enjoyed putting an ice pack on various parts of my body with a bit of cotton material between it and the skin to prevent "freezer burn"..for about an hour at a time..

There is some information available that says that if you get fat cells really cold for a hour that they'll eventually die, crystalize and be eliminated.

Cold is good for you if you don't over do it..it speeds up your metabolism and makes you just feel alive

Cold thermogenesis - new term for me. Thanks for that bit, Brenda. Fascinating. It's a bit beyond the hydrotherapy I've been familiar with.

Brenda Groth wrote:What about adding cold thermogenesis?

You can read about it on Mark's Daily apple or you can google it.

I have always loved going outside barefoot and in shorts and a t shirt in the winter here..although I'm not a swimmer so I don't swim in cold ponds like some do..or do the polar plunges. I love the snow on my barefeet.

I walk every morning and as long as it is in the 40's I don't ware a jacket, just shorts and a t shirt..if there is a cold rain I'll don a jacket..I walked in the rain yesterday in shorts and a t shirt and my husband got all worried and drove to pick me up..don't believe in arguing so I let him drive me home..but I was lovin the rain.

I've also enjoyed putting an ice pack on various parts of my body with a bit of cotton material between it and the skin to prevent "freezer burn"..for about an hour at a time..

There is some information available that says that if you get fat cells really cold for a hour that they'll eventually die, crystalize and be eliminated.

Cold is good for you if you don't over do it..it speeds up your metabolism and makes you just feel alive

I do CT when my back flares up. I like CT in the cooler months when you don't have to use ice. I use 100 gallon horse water tub. I think CT does make you sleep like a brick.

Interesting thread. I must admit that the thought of Paleo makes me depressed. Some years ago I went on an eating regimen in which I balanced my diet for fat, protein, carbs, salt, etc. and after less than a week, I was dreading eating because I kept thinking "I have to eat more protein...UGH!". I am not against meats/eggs, I just don't desire them very often. I am much more open to getting my protein through nuts and legumes. Admittedly, I am a carboholic. I am trying to balance it in my mind how to get more proteins from meat sources without totally depressing myself and making me actually dread eating. What makes it hard for me to dissuade myself from the need to eat more meat protein thought is that I felt fabulous when I ate that balanced way. (sigh) Is force feeding a good option and does one's body and mind ever adjust or are we hard wired to lean a particular dietary direction? There is a lot of information in this thread that I want to dig into more. I need to make some adjustment, just need to figure out what will work for me. Suggestions are always welcome, especially about what to do about dreading eating certain things.

I have been thinking about this thread more and thought that maybe I could add a little more detail about my “thoughts” as I think about this stuff.

Animal based protein seems to be what my body does not want a lot of. If someone makes me a meal with it in or if I make a meal for someone, I typically will include it and eat it with no problem or concern. (Now fish and seafood are a whole other thing for me – not going to happen. YUK) I would say that 95% of the time or more, it is just myself that I am preparing meals for, though. On the rare occasions that I do get hungry for some animal based protein, I happily oblige myself because I figure my body must be lacking something and that is what is driving that urge. When I did the more balanced eating, while I felt fantastic, I quickly got to a point (in less than a month) in which I started looking at the meals and, if I had to eat some animal based protein at most of them, I would often just skip the meal entirely because that is how much I dreaded having to eat it that frequently. Plant based protein – no problem at all in my mind. I have been trying to convince myself that plant based is not a healthy option because of the carb load associated with it.

So here is my quandary…I think your body tells you what you need and don’t need. Admittedly, I am overweight because of some of the crap that I have eaten and sometimes due to preparation style. I would like to lose weight (about 40-50 pounds) and feel better. I have fibromyalgia which tends to be quite food sensitive and there are some definite things that make it feel worse, white potatoes being the primary no-no food for me. Is it wise to work on reducing my sugar and bad carb input (like white flour) and let my body tell me what it needs beyond that or should I force myself to eat more of a balanced diet, probably not to quite the extreme that I did before? While not necessarily watching my calories before, I did try to maintain a minimum calorie amount because I did not want my body to think that it was going into starvation mode and reset my metabolism in a negative way. When I got to the point of skipping meals rather than having to eat more animal based protein, which really made it a problem for me to get enough calories to even get to a reasonable daily amount. Right now, I have a HUGE mental battle going on. I want to be healthy and happy. How do I get beyond my severe unhappiness and dread of a reasonable amount of animal protein daily? One other thing that I might throw in, I tend to graze throughout the day for my food intake. If I get on a consistent larger meals for breakfast, lunch and dinner, I do get to a point of getting tired of eating, too. Hopefully I don’t sound too crazy, just trying to find something that will keep my body and mind happy while achieving weight loss and feeling healthier all around.

Please, throw out some thoughts and suggestions.

Jen Shrock wrote:
So here is my quandary…I think your body tells you what you need and don’t need.
...
How do I get beyond my severe unhappiness and dread of a reasonable amount of animal protein daily?

In your prior post you admit to being a "carboholic." LC proponents do claim it's an addiction. There are even withdrawal symptoms (and ways around those like increasing your salt intake).

My suggestion is to get a book (Paleo/Primal/Atkins/Weston Price) and stick to a LC diet for at least 2 weeks - 1 month is better.
Maybe do The 2013 Primal Blueprint Challange.

I tried focusing on increasing my protein content before going LC and it didn't work for me.

One last thing - I do eat 2 or 3 eggs everyday for either breakfast or lunch. My own eggs are much less "greasy" then store bought and so if you can find non-commercial eggs that will help.

I guess on thing that I forgot to mention is that I did a one month diet too in which I eliminated yeast, gluten and sugar all at once (it was based on the WholeApproach guidelines for anti-candida diets). Great results, but again, a severe unhappiness at how much animal protein I had to consume. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to be vegetarian, but I need to figure out a balance. I agree that there are withdrawl symptoms associated with and, to help me cope with that, I found some humor in some of my symptoms. I can see how getting away from the gluten side of carbs can be a good thing for me, but is my body trying to guide me to healthier carb options? Does my body really need much animal based protein or, is protein (whatever the source) sufficient? One of the posts further up in this thread did mention that more men tend to lean toward the animal based protein heavy diets. I can say that I tended to agree with that statement. Am I trying to fit myself into a mold, maybe, that is not the right balance for it? Maybe I am looking for support in my thoujghts, but really I am just looking for honest comments...good or bad.

I'm not totally clear on why you're dreading animal based protein. Could you post on what the dread is? Free associate.

You don't want to go more than 30% protein or it gets converted to glucose anyway. It's often a matter of trading the carbs for good fat.

Also, have you found any "perfect meals?" A few pieces/oz of very flavorful meat (flank steak) over a salad seems to be a big favorite and easy. My go to meal this fall was 4/5 oz ham steak (my own pork) and sweet potatoes. I could eat that days on end but my pesky family wouldn't go for it.

In order for me to get the "recommended" daily allowance of protein, I would have to probably have protein with most "major" meals for the day. When I think about the possibility of having animal protein 3X per day, my mind gets this repulsed sort of feeling and the first thought that pops into it is that I would rather go hungry than eat that much meat/eggs/dairy. It is hard to explain (and the irony is that I have some chicken in the oven right now). Basically I am ok with eating animal protein a couple of times a week, meaning at a couple of meals a week. I do not want it every day, let alone at the majority of my meals. I don't know why, it is just how my mind tends to respond. I can eat the stuff every day, every meal, if need be, without any side effects, so it is not an allergy or something like that. I guess the best way to describe the feeling that I get is...have you ever ate so much of something that you thought "If I take one more bite of this I might just throw up"? That dread that came along with the thought (think of the foolish people that try to eat the 72 oz steak meals) and the look they get on their face when they get to their limit...that is sort of the look that I get. No physical expelling of the food, but the dread that comes along with the thought. My body just doesn't want that much, only small, occasional snippets. I know it sounds wierd, and trust me, I think it sounds wierd too, but that is how it is. Like I said, plant based protein does not evoke a response like that in the least bit. Give me nuts or beans and my body/mind is perfectly fine with getting protein that way multiple times a day for multiple days straight. Veggies don't bother me and fruit doesn't either. I tend to be light on the fruit side and I think that is ok because I really don't need the extra sugar. Maybe I should quit worrying about it so much and take some cues from my own body as to what is right for me instead of trying to fit myself into someone else's predefined ideal diet. I do want to wade through the various diets, links, etc. mentioned in this thread to see if I can come up with a mixed bag diet that is ideal for me and supports my body best. Physically, I know I need to cut down on the bad carbs. I have fibromyalgia and the bad carbs tend to trash how I feel. I think that I need to take steps to clean up my diet a bit and I think the weight loss and feeling better with more energy will naturally follow.

I'm interested to hear how things are going for those who posted earlier. I have this feeling that I should go low-carb, but I haven't achieved much. Yesterday I managed to be low carb all day. Today I had french toast (!!) for breakfast: my 11 yr old made it for us, how could I refuse? Then I went ahead and had pizza at a movie with a bunch of kids from the neighborhood, and watermelon when I got home tonight. So, today definitely not a low carb day.

I used to have a two egg omelet with pesto and kimchi every morning, but more recently I've stopped having breakfast. I know, horrors, "breakfast is the most important meal of the day" and all that. Well, I was still eating lunch at work, and I was still eating snack things at work, so all that protein and fat wasn't giving me the will power I needed. Thus, I've cut the omelet 4 days a week when I go in to the office. I just have coffee with heavy cream in the morning. On days I'm at home, I'll have the omelet closer to noon and skip lunch.

For me, it's better to just avoid whole meals than try to be better at portion control. I'll keep trying to cut back on carbs, but man oh man we've got a box of organic peaches from Washington in the kitchen right now!