Rethinking Lithium Batteries

Hi All;
A while back I was excited about updating my lead acid batteries to Lithium batteries.
After extensive research, I concluded they were not an easy addition to my Hydro / Solar system.
I chose to replace my lead acid AGM batteries with a similar pair rather than invest in changing over to a lithium system.

Over the last year or so I have been hearing of "Incidents" involving cars catching on fire, possibly caused by the batteries charging.
Lately, it has been electric bicycle Lithium batteries causing fires...  some life-threatening!
I found this to be a scary defect that could have devastating results.

What I had not heard about was the larger "home" size Lithium batteries having any problems at all.

This morning I received an email from an off-grid friend in northern Canada.
This spring he had replaced his aging AGMs with a new Lithium battery system!
He was very excited and extremely happy with his new system!
He even tried encouraging me to give up those old lead acids and jump on the Lithium bandwagon...

As of Saturday he no longer has a Lithium system.
His home was destroyed in a devastating fire caused by the Lithium batteries charging.
I have no real details, as his message was grief-stricken.

I know he purchased all his new equipment together from one supplier.
It was professionally installed.

This strikes very close to home for me.
Not only was this an off-grid system rather than some random hybrid car or bicycle, this easily could have been me!
I wanted to switch and only technical difficulties stopped me.

Maybe the new push to create more Lithium powered products should include more fail-safes to avoid similar fires.









 

Thomas, that's awful news. I hope your friend will be able to rebuild.

Lithiums are great when they work as designed, but there seems to be long-standing risk as they are being charged. I monitor all my lithium spotlights and laptops when charging and try not to leave them plugged in overnight. I need to do the same with my lithium drill batteries -- thanks for the reminder.

I wouldn't trust a big lithium system in my house. It would go in an outbuilding.

I hope the next level technology of batteries will be better and safer.

Unfortunately it is too easy to just call them lithium batteries.

There are many types of batteries that use lithium and they have very different characteristics.
Why the energy dense lithium-ion cells that like to catch fire are used in homes is beyond my understanding.
There are cells that don't catch on fire, but weigh a bit more. But weight does not matter in a house.

Even in a car I would prefer something less exiting than gasoline even if it means less performance.
(I prefer Diesel or Lithium-Iron-Phosphate cells).

I think the lithium cells with a tendency to combust should be treated as such and only be used in fire-proof rooms that are tested to withstand a battery fire.

Have there been any fire incidences with LiFePO4 vs. lithium batteries?  I was under the impression that the iron presence, in however it is implemented, made these far safer and yet still reduce weight of the battery.  Are most of the eBike batteries lithium vs. LiFePO4?  While I don't know how the sodium collection will be done for sodium ion-based batteries, a technology apparently rapidly gaining steam, the lithium mining looks pretty environmentally damaging.  Still, sodium ion technology at least seems to be a future game changer in this area of stored electrical energy..... clearly, time will tell.

https://www.researchandmarkets.com/reports/5849401/the-global-market-sodium-ion-batteries?utm_source=BW&utm_medium=PressRelease&utm_code=gd5jzx&utm_campaign=1870265+-+Global+Sodium-Ion+Battery+Market+Poised+for+Rapid+Growth+in+2023%3a+Commercialization+and+Lower+Costs+Drive+Adoption+in+EVs+and+Energy+Storage&utm_exec=jamu273prd

Thomas,

Do you know if those offending batteries were Lithium-Ion or LiFePo4 chemistry?  I am tinkering with LiFePo4 batteries and asI understand, they are very safe and stable, but the Lithium-Ion accidents are well-known.

Incidentally, when I started my second, larger battery generator I did so initially thinking that I would use SLA batteries.  I did some research which suggested that LiFePo4 was a better bang-for-your-Buck.  But after fiddling with all of the complicated charge controllers I am no longer so certain.  You might be better off with SLA or similar batteries.

Eric

John, I did not hear of any fire involving LiFePO4 cells yet and I can't find any either.
It looks like it is possible to set them on fire if you try hard enough:
Thermal-runaway experiments on consumer Li-ion batteries with metal-oxide and olivin-type cathodes

Very sad but yeah, truthfully, there’s no perfect battery.  They all require safety measures.  

Lead-acid batteries are no picnic either.
They can short-circuit just like any battery and produce thousands of amps of current that gets everything hot very quickly.  Upon charging they can build up hydrogen gas if not vented and a spark can ignite it explosively. Lead is toxic.  Sulfuric acid is corrosive.  They are very heavy, and only 1/3 to 1/2 of the rated capacity is useable without damaging the battery.

Do we stop using them in cars?  no, because it’s convenient to just turn a key rather than hand-crank an engine.

Do you know what *type* of lithium battery and system?  Battery chemistry type and brand?

While there’s no perfect battery, the good news about Lithium batteries is that one of the safest types is also one of the most mature technologies, most economical, longest lasting, most chemically benign, and uses earth-abundant materials: iron and phosphate.

Of the lithium battery types used for off-grid, the “Lithium iron phosphate” battery chemistry is perhaps the best available right now.  It’s often referred to by its chemical formula “LiFePO4”.

If I were to lay out the advantages and disadvantages of SLA (Lead) batteries and LiFePO4 batteries it would look something like this:

SLA Advantages:
Mature, well-known tech
High amp output
Simple voltage can be used as battery state indicator

SLA Disadvantages:
HEAVY! (May not matter if stationary)
Actual battery capacity 1/2 rated capacity

LiFePO4 Advantages:
Actual capacity = to rated capacity
Very flat voltage discharge
Very stable chemistry
Thousands of charge/discharge cycles

LiFePO4 Disadvantages:
Requires special battery meter to determine state-of-charge (owing to flat voltage discharge)
Low amp output
Requires special charging equipment


Based on numbers I have seen, if one is running batteries daily, then LiFePO4 batteries are actually cheaper per watt-hour delivered per charge.  Also, LiFePO4 batteries have a much longer service life (charge-discharge cycles) that an SLA battery.  But the LiFePO4 battery is trickier to hook up.

I may have simplified things so feel free to improve on this list.

Eric

Howdy,

Very sorry to hear about your friend. My heart goes out to them and hope they can recover.

As an off the grid electric producer/user at my age now I get more anxious about fire. I have seen my share of "glitches" in my electric production. I am still using LA batteries, because they are "user friendly"(?). I did all my own electric work.  

Another issue with lead acid batteries is that the longer they are left in a discharged state the more it degrades the battery.  (They can also freeze in cold temperatures if left discharged and that will damage the battery.)  They are also inefficient when charging that last little bit up to full capacity, and since it is required to charge up to full capacity if you want the battery to last multiple years, this tends to bring down the overall efficiency.  They are also less efficient at high discharge rates, so much so that you may only get around 1/3 of the rated capacity.  They also have some self discharge.  Lithium batteries avoid a lot of these issues.

Also check out lithium polymer batteries. They are one of the safest kinds, and have high discharge capacities. They are commonly used by hobbyists for RC cars and planes.

Well that's horrifying. Thanks for the lessons learned Thomas.

I have seen the power that exist in a lithium cell battery get let out under bad circumstances. The battery took a very hard impact and it went off like you wouldn't believe. It blew the aluminum case from the phone a quarter inch into a wooden beam. Unimpressed? It was the FLAT BACK of the case into the beam.... The rest of the phone was never seen again.

Lithium is light and all but I am not going to use it for my home's energy storage. Who cares how heavy lead acid is when it's just sitting there?

Does anyone here know the enviromental cost of lithium vs lead acid? I know there is a lot out here showing how terrible lithium is. Chemical lakes and mine site wastelands and all that. I wonder about lead.

Can you link to a reference about a lithium “chemical lake”?

I've been considering this topic myself lately. I have always been concerned to some degree. I remember when the main hiccup in electric cars was that lead-acid batteries were too heavy and not energy dense enough to truly be practical, and that lithium ion batteries were too dangerous to ever be used in vehicles. Then they started using them. Huh? I saw this sad story the other day about two firefighters permanently disabled due to cobalt poisoning while putting out an EV fire. You don't have to breathe it, even. It can be absorbed through your skin. Here's a more detailed article:

https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/firefighters-union-calls-for-government-action-on-ev-fire-risks

There was a thread here a while back about an electric cargo ship. I think I asked about what happens if one catches fire. Well, not exactly the same thing, but we now have a car transport carrier (the Fremantle Highway) with 3,783 vehicles--500 of which are EVs--which burned from July 25 to August 1. 200,000 kilograms of lithium ion battery. The impact to the environment is unimaginable. One crewman died, sixteen injured. It was so bad, crew were supposedly jumping overboard to get away. The issue is thermal runaway. It doesn't just start a fire. It is a self-sustaining chemical reaction that runs until it is through. Water doesn't stop it. Suffocation doesn't stop it. It emits hydrofluoric acid, hydrogen cyanide, carbon monoxide, cobalt, and many other chemicals. This is the second cargo ship so far.

I've noticed all of a sudden there are a lot of negative articles on EVs. Most are tied to the batteries, and a lot due to fires/explosions. It seems the main issue is the batteries being made in China, which is a concern because so many are made there, and as they try to push the price of these batteries down as much as possible, more and more are being made there. There have been several houses burned down by these now. The big issue is that it is not just happening when charging; These large batteries can just spontaneously combust at any time without warning. This video has a lot of instances of how these fires look, but I have seen some much more violent:  

Yeah, that’s one of the reasons for liking Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4), there’s little to no cobalt in them.

Unfortunately anything to do with energy is potentially dangerous. Gas, gasoline, oil, firewood,  nuclear, wind turbines too, hydro dams, compressed air, a spinning flywheel…. Sunshine gives you skin cancer.  Yet it’s essential for life, so… kinda need it in one form or another…

What’s the safest, greenest, rechargeable battery?  Maybe a rechargeable zinc-air battery?  

I am still on the fence about lithium. What I do like is they can remain at whatever state of charge without damage, that is above about 20% state of charge. They also do not require a long absorption charge to be full. Living on the west coast, our solar irradiance is very low. some times we only get 1 1/2 hours of sunlight a day(if the clouds don't get in the way).... So with the lithiums this might be no problem. Currently our absorption charge takes 2 hours and 24 minutes...

Lead acids like to be full!
Lead acids claim to be 98 -100% recyclable, even the plastic case is reused.  
I can get one 6v 445amp FLA rolls royce battery for 579$CAD plus tax. I know the Lithium will be atleast twice that. So for a low income schmuck like me. I find lithium too rich for my blood.
I am still partial to rolls royce batteries. I have a friend who ran his rolls royce FLA batteries for 13 years!  Our current Deka Solar batteries are 8 years now! I even like the full on flooded lead acid. While it requires the work of filling it up and checking the specific gravity, they seem very forgiving if treated well. The thing with needing to check the FLA often, means that you are more likely to notice an issue with the batteries/wires.


I also have a lithium (lipo4) 72v battery for my electric scooter. It has needed the BMS replaced about 4 times now. This very well might be the quality of bms that the thing uses. However I have had a hell of a time trying to find someone who will work on it. I have been sent some replacement BMS, they require me to take off all of the balance wires and reattach the new ones because this new bms has different plugs/wires. Good lord.

I like Lithium batteries, especially the LiFePO4 chemistry.  I like to build my battery banks/battery generators.  But one big downside to all lithium batteries are that they take more electronics to charge and operate.  Since the voltage remains almost completely constant throughout the discharge, voltage cannot be used as an indicator of state-of-charge.  For that, it requires a dedicated battery meter which measures electricity flowing in and out.  Essentially the battery meter counts the state-of-charge instead of measuring it.

On top of that, and battery that requires more than one cell—which is virtually all of them—requires a dedicated battery management system (BMS) to make certain that all cells stay equally charged.

My experience thus far is that the LiFePO4 battery chemistry is quite robust but the electronics can be cheap and prone to failure.

Eric

I’m surprised. I was not quite expecting to go on a permaculture forum to hear folks say that the solution to new battery fires is to revert to using the ones made with 50 kilograms of heavy-metal neurotoxin.  I thought we were looking for a better alternative?  That’s 50,000,000 micrograms that is normally outlawed at 0.5 microgram levels….
I was rather expecting someone would suggest building with some non-flammable material like “cob”…. No?  Nothing but crickets?

But I get it, we’d rather live with the danger that we’re familiar with than contend with some new unknown danger, even if it’s safer… facts be damned….   Even though it seems silly, I’d have to admit my instincts are the same way.  

Yeah yeah, don't get all trolly there guy.

But you will be happy! The chemical lake is actually from all the stuff that goes along with the new "tech lust"...

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20150402-the-worst-place-on-earth

But hey if you want more lithium defamation, here's a fun quote from https://climate360news.lmu.edu/lithium-not-as-clean-as-we-thought/

"The disposal of these batteries also poses a threat to the climate. Though these batteries contain less toxic waste than other kinds of batteries, a study from Australia found that 98.3% of lithium-ion batteries, not exclusively car batteries, end up in landfills. This massive influx of batteries into landfills significantly increases the likelihood of landfill fires that can burn for years. One landfill in the Pacific Northwest is reported to have seen 124 fires between June 2017 and Dec. 2020 due to lithium-ion batteries. Consequently, fires are becoming increasingly more common, with 21 fires reported on the site in 2018, rising to 47 by 2020."

Can't even throw that stuff away without it burning... And they effectively don't recycle lithium batteries...

All I am saying is if it is proven to spontaneously catch on fire, it's not going in my house or garage.

Batteries or not, Fire exists in the world when combustible things get too hot.

I remember one time having to stomp out a fire because a landscaping company spread wet mulch on a hot day next to a white fence.

I've been impressed by the "new/newer" Nickel metal hydride batteries. I bought a 5 unit cordless Panasonic phone system about 10 plus years ago and it still has the original nickel batteries in it.   Each  handset has just two AAA cells. BK-40AAABU. They have been on the chargers continuously and are still very functional. I rotate between two units. Charge one at night switch, charge the other during the day, the rest stay on the cradle. They still last a good day or two on a single charge, as they did when new. The lithium I had before, lasted five years, at best, if I removed them from the charger when full. If I left them on the charger they died in a year.

I bought an Eveready system and batteries from Costco over five years ago, Ni-MH, and put them in a blood pressure tester over a year ago. They haven't yet needed a recharge. The 4 AA nickel batteries replaced 4 alkaline Evereadys. I thought I'd have to recharge them every month. But haven't in over a year. It laid unused for half a year and is only used once or twice a week lately. Still going strong.

I put four of those AA's into a Costco Eveready flashlight that is supposed to have four C-Cells. That flashlight,1000 lumens, run usually at half brightness, will last about a day running continuously when fully charged. I recharge them every two to three months or longer. It sits on the counter for days even weeks between uses sometimes, and often used daily.

Seems a very good record for very puny batteries. Maybe they could be applied for home and vehicle "safe" use? I never heard of one being on fire?

thomas rubino wrote:Hi All;
A while back I was excited about updating my lead acid batteries to Lithium batteries.
After extensive research, I concluded they were not an easy addition to my Hydro / Solar system.
I chose to replace my lead acid AGM batteries with a similar pair rather than invest in changing over to a lithium system.

Over the last year or so I have been hearing of "Incidents" involving cars catching on fire, possibly caused by the batteries charging.
Lately, it has been electric bicycle Lithium batteries causing fires...  some life-threatening!
I found this to be a scary defect that could have devastating results.

What I had not heard about was the larger "home" size Lithium batteries having any problems at all.

This morning I received an email from an off-grid friend in northern Canada.
This spring he had replaced his aging AGMs with a new Lithium battery system!
He was very excited and extremely happy with his new system!
He even tried encouraging me to give up those old lead acids and jump on the Lithium bandwagon...

As of Saturday he no longer has a Lithium system.
His home was destroyed in a devastating fire caused by the Lithium batteries charging.
I have no real details, as his message was grief-stricken.

I know he purchased all his new equipment together from one supplier.
It was professionally installed.

This strikes very close to home for me.
Not only was this an off-grid system rather than some random hybrid car or bicycle, this easily could have been me!
I wanted to switch and only technical difficulties stopped me.

Maybe the new push to create more Lithium powered products should include more fail-safes to avoid similar fires.

Damn, I just saw this Thomas, my condolences to your friend.
Since the start of this year any batteries installed in Canada are not supposed to be in the living part of the house or the basement unless they are in a purpose built fireproof room. The garage is acceptable as long as it has been finished with code compliant fireproofing. Basically I quote out a shed at this point for housing the system unless they have a detached building without living space. Cold weather charging is also a big issue for all the lithium chemistries so far. Even the heater equipped units are having problems due to uneven heating so some cells are frozen others not. BMS failures are also a real concern. Lead is a simple chemical reaction lithium relies on its dedicated BMS computer to not fry.  Cheaper lithium systems are also pushing the charging percentages to high in my opinion. "100 percent discharge" and "100 percent charging in 1 hour" cause huge heat issues stressing components to the max. Because lithium is still so expensive people are sizing out a lithium system for 100 percent discharge to replace their Lead acid or AGM units that are sized for 50% or 30% cycling. Ideally you would size your lithium no more then 60-70 percent discharge per day but that would jack up the price so much people don't do it. Lithium used correctly is a great technology but it does not solve all problems or fit all situations. It gets so much press everyone thinks it is a must have but it is still best to use good design and a range of solutions.
CHeers,  David Baillie

Hi Eric,

Welcome to Permies.

Eric Norby wrote:I've been impressed by the "new/newer" Nickel metal hydride batteries.

... Seems a very good record for very puny batteries. Maybe they could be applied for home and vehicle "safe" use? I never heard of one being on fire?

I use NiMH low self discharge (LSD) batteries extensively in my handheld lights and portable electronics. If you have a good charger, they are excellent in those roles. I see no reason to change anytime soon.

But: they are quite heavy compared to lithium cells. The power to weight ratio is not suitable for vehicles. And I suspect their relatively slow charge and discharge rate is not adequate for home power systems. They also build up a "memory" when partially charged and discharged that limits their capacity. Lithium ion handles this much better. Unless it's on fire.

I use LiFePO4 batteries in emergency radio communications. I began with a large AGM, that died when the trickle charger shorted. Lithium has internal protection and would have shut off.

But another important factor to be aware of is that Lithium batteries *cannot* be charged at cold temperatures, typically stated as freezing temps. This can be handled by putting them in insulated boxes and using a low-power silicon rubber heating mat and a thermostat.

-- Christian

The old car batteries are kept in warehouses mostly or sometimes recycled - those are very valuable metals and elements and that's the good thing about electric car batteries/Li-ion in general, instead of just crushing the whole car at the end of its usable life it will have a large amount of chemical elements they can mine out later or maybe even just use now as part of a grid tie energy sinc.

Interesting discussion here
https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/whats-happening-to-recalled-batteries.42348/
and an old WIRED article for more info - https://www.wired.com/story/cars-going-electric-what-happens-used-batteries/

I am putting my power systems in a shipping container or a concrete storm shelter (whichever is the best deal when I get to that point). Partially for fire mitigation, partially for emf mitigation.

Lithium batteries are big fuel tanks and burns like it when things go wrong. I am not storing hundreds of gallons of fuel in my house, either.

Mike Philips wrote:What’s the safest, greenest, rechargeable battery?  Maybe a rechargeable zinc-air battery?  

For years now, I've been so curious about nickel iron batteries for home use. They are very heavy, but almost impossible to destroy by abuse. The like to be used heavily, and they need no fancy charging circuitry. You can recharge them fast at a higher voltage with no damage, too. They used to be used in electric forklifts, sometimes electric trains, too, I think, maybe for bursts of power. Full discharge with zero damage. (Lots about them online, going back to their inventor, Thomas Edison.)

They have a definite tendency to self  discharge faster than other batteries, and the initial cost is much higher than the other alternatives. But it has always seemed to me that a large solar array, sized appropriately, could make for a very resilient and extremely long-lived home power system. (Minus the lots of fragile electronics that is the weak spot in so much  modern life.)

The electrolyte Is not an acid, it's potassium hydroxide-- lye.. Depending on who you read, it may be necessary to replace the electrolyte every. 8 or 10 years, and you need to top it off with distilled water every month or so( if memory serves) because they do off-gas. Some of Edidons cells are still around and functional -- very long lived.

What grabs me is no battery management system to  fail and ruin everything, just simple routine tasks to keep them healthy. As far as I know now, nobody domestic sells them any longer. Too "inconvenient" I guess. But to me, they seem up have an awful lot going for them.

AND, if charged while frozen, can and likely will explode.

Mike Philips wrote:Another issue with lead acid batteries is that the longer they are left in a discharged state the more it degrades the battery.  (They can also freeze in cold temperatures if left discharged and that will damage the battery.)  They are also inefficient when charging that last little bit up to full capacity, and since it is required to charge up to full capacity if you want the battery to last multiple years, this tends to bring down the overall efficiency.  They are also less efficient at high discharge rates, so much so that you may only get around 1/3 of the rated capacity.  They also have some self discharge.  Lithium batteries avoid a lot of these issues.

Also check out lithium polymer batteries. They are one of the safest kinds, and have high discharge capacities. They are commonly used by hobbyists for RC cars and planes.

I have a reconditioned fork lift battery as my quiet off grid power supply, they are super heavy, reliable as an anvil, and not very efficient. I expect about 15 to 20 years before it needs reconditioned again. The Amish about 20 miles south of me have these in most of their work shops. They charge them with wind & solar and expect about 50% of the electric they put in them to come back out... I probably get less than that because I don't watch mine as close as they do. I did have a friend in western PA burn up his battery barn. He had a lot of golf cart/RV style deep cycle units that should have been safe but they do generate heat when over charged, & hydrogen gas while charging, that and a tight sealed barn ended up being an expensive day.  Lesson is no matter your system they have advantages & draw backs. No system is perfect. Please know what you have and what to watch out for. Doing volunteer fire dept work I know it takes a lot more water to put out a lithium fire than normal so consider putting them at-lease 50 feet from important stuff in-case they have a flaw & light up. My fork lift battery is 100feet away but then again i might be paranoid. John

On that whole charging thing, I have a wood shop and it is populated by all manner of mechanical and electrical tools. Among them are three sets (e.g., drill, impact driver, saws, etc.) of cordless tools that run on lithium ion batteries. Regardless what type of battery running on my equipment, including cars, over charging has always been a concern for me. Because of that, I built a couple charging stations.

The charging station currently in use has indicator lights that show me when power is to the station [feeding the always on duplex outlet], and when the switch(es) is/are on to one or more of the three duplex outlets three different chargers are plugged into.

Too, those three charging station outlets are fed from a 20 amp, analog (the digital ones WILL blow out) timer, which limits charging time to one hour, which is adequate for re-charging any of my cordless tool batteries.

It's not the perfect solution, but it's a start. A major improvement would be, locating the charging station in a fire proof location. That is, someplace where it could not take down my entire shop, if a battery went out of control.

Kelly Craig wrote:On that whole charging thing, I have a wood shop and it is populated by all manner of mechanical and electrical tools. Among them are three sets (e.g., drill, impact driver, saws, etc.) of cordless tools that run on lithium ion batteries. Regardless what type of battery running on my equipment, including cars, over charging has always been a concern for me. Because of that, I build a couple charging stations.

The charging station currently in use has indicator lights that show me when power is to the station [feeding the always on duplex outlet], and when the switch(es) is/are on to one or more of the three duplex outlets three different chargers are plugged into.

Too, those three charging station outlets are fed from a 20 amp, analog (the digital ones WILL blow out) timer, which limits charging time to one hour, which is adequate for re-charging any of my cordless tool batteries.

It's not the perfect solution, but it's a start. A major improvement would be, locating the charging station in a fire proof location. That is, someplace where it could not take down my entire shop, if a battery went out of control.

nice setup, I thought about having the excess charging (over-voltage) routed to a DC water heater element to help keep the wash water warm. but I haven't got that far yet.

On a side note, my old Ranger battery died a while back. Can't complain, it hung in there very well for 10 years (which went faster than it should have).  I got bit for $185.00 for a replacement (I ALWAYS buy more than I need, which is why I got ten years out of the Ranger battery).  That purchase resulted in no small amount of sticker shock, since the stale memory of purchasing the Ranger battery for about $85.00 was still in my mind.

To my surprise, our Forester gave up it's battery ghost too, but only after 8 years (sniff).  Well, it wasn't dead yet, but after a couple times of leaving the lights on for a relatively short time and finding I had to resort to the LITHIUM ION phone sized starter pack, I didn't want to be the fool who ignored the writing (date) on the battery sticker.

I live in a small town, so knew the folks running the auto parts when I went to order/buy a new battery.  I had been looking into AGM batteries and mentioned them, but that I was unwilling/unable to afford one for the car. The owner's son told me someone ordered an AGA battery, it would fit the Forester, it had more amperage than the stock one, like I requested and, because the battery wasn't picked up (had been a week since they ordered it), I could have it for about about $20.00 more than what I paid for the Ranger battery.

Time will tell.

__________________________________________________________

5. Absorbent Glass Mat Battery (AGM)   The AGM battery is a VRLA battery designed to support higher electrical energy demands in modern vehicles. It’s similar to a wet cell battery, but a fiberglass separator (a “glass mat”) absorbs the electrolyte solution and keeps it in place. This battery type performs better than its flooded and gel cell counterparts. It can charge up to 5 times faster and withstand 3 times more cycle life than a conventional battery. It can also cycle down to 80% of its DoD. They can cost 40-100% percent more than conventional batteries.

It's difficult to know how much to be worried about lithium battery fires. They do seem to be occurring at an increasing rate, but much of that is probably an increasing population. What worries me is the severity of the fires when they occur and the risks to associated property and lives (Freemantle highway, Luton airport, Liverpool docks, several car dealerships....) so much so that we have even considered an exclusion zone around our little store - to be workable though it would have to be no parking at all, which would make our deliveries more awkward.
I do know that we opted for an AGM system as power back up for the shop till, being the best compromise between cost/safety and longevity for us. I guess go for the smallest system you can get away with - economising on energy use as much as possible first is always a good idea, and saves money as well as resources in the long run.

Definitely wished I hadn't clicked on this thread while sitting in my caravan with my 4 little ones and with 4 new lithium batteries for our solar system. I'd feel more comfortable about it if I was in a house and could fire insulate the room they were in.
I have to now work double hard to shift my frequency away from fire fear.

Judy Heald wrote:Definitely wished I hadn't clicked on this thread while sitting in my caravan with my 4 little ones and with 4 new lithium batteries for our solar system. I'd feel more comfortable about it if I was in a house and could fire insulate the room they were in.
I have to now work double hard to shift my frequency away from fire fear.

If you're charging with solar wind or such have a good charge controller that dumps the extra voltage to some other useful task and you should be fine. If you're using a plug in charger or the caravans engine just limit the charging time. Lithium batteries don't like being charged went below freezing or when it's really hot. Normally they are very safe. The glamorous fires you see are usually as a result of harsh treatment. For instance if you run it over with a truck and bend it in half it will probably short out and catch on fire. if you drill a hole thru them.... etc.   Kelly's set up with a timer on the circuit is a great idea.  Normally I put my batteries on charge then come back in a couple minutes to check their temp, they should be slightly warmer than room temp, not hot to touch. then take them off charge in 30-60 minutes. his timer would eliminate the need to remember to come back in timely fashion.

To make it clear: what you are referring to as a Lithium battery is very generic. It's like calling any salad having any amount of tomato a tomato salad.

There are many, many different battery chemistries that contain lithium. The most energy dense ones are Nickel-Cobalt-Managanese (NCM) and those are usually used in electric cars.

LiFePO4 are safer and last longer. They are used in some newer electric cars.

LTO (Lithium-Titanate) are also safe and last extremely long.

Saying "lithium batteries aren't safe" is like saying "tomato salads aren't safe" because you can put poison in a tomato salad or because you ate 1000 salads in a day (a comparison with overcharging)

Mmm... I have to tiptoe around on this subject due to my line of work but there are some exciting new developments that are happening in the world of filtration.

But Tim, what do filters have to do with lithium batteries!?

Everything and then some!

There is currently a sort of Research and Development race in order to make material that goes into batteries (Especially Lithium based that have experience runaway fires) that will help encapsulate and reduce runaway fires experienced in some batteries.

We are seeing an 'increase' in these events because batteries are becoming more mainstream. There are petrol based fires every day that don't get much attention because we have worked out the fire suppression techniques and best practices. Batteries are constantly evolving and taking different shapes so the surrounding best practices are also developing.

You are also going to start see these larger batteries starting to have multiple cells located inside of them to ease replacement and service on these batteries.

Take the time, especially you DIYers, to look at your system and what components are a part of it. Please ensure that your connections are solid and that the system is protected from wear/elements. Introduce redundancy in your safeguards and most importantly get into the habit of doing rotating inspections. Most of the time this will be the same old same old but you might get hints that something is going on. We had an industrial battery charger at my work catch fire and found out it was because it was full of dust/debris that never had been cleaned out sense installation. We now create an automatic notification to service it on a set interval.

Be safe!