• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Carla Burke
  • John F Dean
  • Timothy Norton
  • Nancy Reading
  • r ranson
  • Jay Angler
  • Pearl Sutton
stewards:
  • paul wheaton
  • Tereza Okava
  • Andrés Bernal
master gardeners:
  • Christopher Weeks
gardeners:
  • Jeremy VanGelder
  • M Ljin
  • Matt McSpadden

'Beyond Organic' what does that mean to you?

 
Posts: 9614
Location: Ozarks zone 7 alluvial, clay/loam with few rocks 50" yearly rain
2844
4
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I have a hard time with this one...I think I get it...I think our life and our land are showing the results of that synergy and balance. But when on the spot with a short answer, plain old Organic guidelines are easier for me to spit out.
So, I wondered if others could share their thoughts.
 
Posts: 145
4
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think that "beyond organic" would move past such things as using 'organic' fertilizers and pesticides in lieu of chemical substitutes, and move toward manufacturing your own products that ensure the complete health of not only the plants, but the land and the people living on it.

A slightly relevant anecdote would be: I currently have a rare cacti collection, many many endangered species. Upon moving to my new location, I started getting a strange rot that I performed a culture slide on and ID as fusarium oxysporum. I was freaking out knowing that this pathogen would decimate my collection in a few days with no action. I even considered using strong chemical fungicides due to my soft-hearted overprotective-ness toward my cacti. Instead, I did a bit of research, put some natto in a blender with some water for the bacillus subtilis, and sprayed the decoction minus soya particles on the plants. It seems to be working.

The "beyond organic" solution to the above problem would be to encourage bacillus subtilis growth in my compost pile and the soil used to the point that the pathogen is food for the soil.
 
steward
Posts: 7926
Location: Currently in Lake Stevens, WA. Home in Spokane
360
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
While believing that "organic" is far better than ChemAg, it still leaves a lot to be desired, as far as healing the planet.

Typical organic farms still plow/till multiple times per year.
Each of these 'disturbances' of the soil causes a loss to the Soil Food Web (SFW)
At a bare minimum, the soil should be reinocculated/treated to help restore that loss after each disturbance.

Typical organic farms have blocks of corn, rows of lettuce, squash, etc, etc.
Still, basically patches of monoculture.
A true polyculture, with hundreds of species intermingled, will help balance the SFW.
Each plant family has a symbiotic relation with its neighbors. Creates a more balanced environment.
This helps minimize pest and disease pressures, thus reducing 'treatment' needs.

Simply, not spraying poisons, and adding organic matter is just not enough to improve the soil.
Bringing the soil to a better balance improves the soil rather than just 'not damaging' it.

While I do not practice biodynamics, I still see it as being "beyond organics".
I can see the benefits of following moon cycles, but beyond that, I have my doubts.
Animals (including humans and pests) all seem to be affected by the moon, I see no reason why this couldn't apply to plants as well.


 
Posts: 137
Location: Ottawa, Canada -- Zone 4b/5a
3
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Beyond organic to me is what you would find in nature. Example: a very well establish forest garden/food forest where it will provided food without any input.

Kris
 
Posts: 18
Location: Breckenridge, CO
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I would have to agree with John Polk. Organic Ag is mostly degenerative. It can still include flying planes to spray various things in plants. Things that we may not want to consume, and the SFW would also like to avoid.

Organic Ag (to me) still means:
Strange sprays (just because it isn't a petro chem based product, doesn't mean that it is healthful)
Large scale nutrient run off
Soil erosion
Far too much tilling
Top Soil loss
Unecessary resource use
etc etc etc

Going beyond organic, to me, means crossing a few of the nastier aspects of Organic Ag off the list, and keeping in mind the planet and people aspect of PC.

All that said, there is still value in the Org Ag movement... they seem to be putting up the biggest fight against our future evil overlords monsanto, dupont and friends.
 
Posts: 148
Location: Zone 4b
6
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
This very forum. I see IT as beyond organic. Interconnecting a global web of like-minded people who truly love this earth is beyond organic. Sharing real life solutions on a daily basis with complete strangers goes way beyond organic to me. It gets to the heart of who we are. Social butterfly's. And I like it.
 
Posts: 14
Location: Southern Maine
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Discussing 'beyond organic' would require a fairly solid definition and practice of what organic is, and there in lies the problem. The word, along with the idea, has been hijacked a long time ago by industry, politics and market. It is not unlike the word 'natural'... absolutely meaningless in today's culture.
 
pollinator
Posts: 356
Location: Portugal (zone 9) and Iceland (zone 5)
15
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Completey agree with every single comment above.

Organic is necessary and a very good step forward but not enough, and we must reinforce this.

Organic still damages the land and might be unsustainable, and from an economic point of view unsustainable too (because economics run the world so far).

Integrating permaculture principles, such as mulching, polycultures or at least rows of different species with wildlife promoting species, all these simple steps should be encouraged within the organic movement.

Also growing more perennials (like in a forest garden). Maybe a slow start but surely sustainable, feeding to the masses, and sustainable, both naturally and economically. Perennials are also much less affected by climatic hardships.
 
Judith Browning
Posts: 9614
Location: Ozarks zone 7 alluvial, clay/loam with few rocks 50" yearly rain
2844
4
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jamie Heaney wrote:Discussing 'beyond organic' would require a fairly solid definition and practice of what organic is, and there in lies the problem. The word, along with the idea, has been hijacked a long time ago by industry, politics and market. It is not unlike the word 'natural'... absolutely meaningless in today's culture.



This is where I am having a problem, I think...my thoughts about organic have been inspired by sir Albert Howard/Wendell Berry type folks and the fairly recent (for someone my age) takeover of the idea and making it a marketing ploy is a huge disappointment and distraction moving it away from a whole life philosophy.
I do see that Permaculture is leading the way 'beyond organic' .
And, I too, agree with all of the above posts nicely expressed.
 
John Polk
steward
Posts: 7926
Location: Currently in Lake Stevens, WA. Home in Spokane
360
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Yes, I agree. "Organic" used to mean a lot more than it does today.

At one point, "organic" was what we were all striving for.
Today, it is just the first step along a lengthy path - the elimination of using poisons.

There is so much more that needs to be considered to achieve a balanced ecosystem.

 
Posts: 112
Location: Mountain West of USA, Salt Lake City
1
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
There are so many levels of this. Forest gardening and foraging are probably the "best". However, the produce we output from our organically fertilized, EM/compost inoculated, no spray, heavily tilled spin plots is pretty good imo. Tilling controls weeds and preps the soil for an earthway seeder. Without it I highly doubt we could compete with other CSAs/market farmers, let alone Whole Foods. The end result for the soil is 8 inches of beautifully tilled soil and compaction under that. There is no erosion or run off in our systems.
 
Joe Moore
Posts: 18
Location: Breckenridge, CO
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hanley, Interesting. How are you mitigating run off or top soil loss? Do you have a basin shaped garden?
 
Posts: 81
9
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Once you define a process, a functional application or approach as applicable to some kind of intended outcome, it becomes a product of our consumer market economy. In other words any term which has the potential for increasing profitability on a broad level will become co-opted by the system. (See below). Marketing has become a form of psychology lobbying. It's a tactic to inundate consumers with of a myriad of meanings so that anything can mean anything. Once in the mainstream any root intent becomes diluted or lost. Culturally,everything has to be "coined" in order to be talked about in any public discourse: being green (oil companies), saving the environment, organic, natural - having no viable cultural meaning. Even Ecoforestry (which is a primary focus of mine) is being usurped. Once permaculture reaches a certain level ($$) of public awareness it will be co-opted.

So what can Beyond Organic mean so that it remains vital,fruitful and maintains useful intent? Perhaps keeping/developing complex multilayer meaning(s). This does go against the "keep it simple stupid" principle which is in vogue. When one is "dealing with Nature", in totality, it is a complex interaction. Wendell Berry is one of the best spokesmen regarding this understanding. I see in his writings a trilogy approach: there's you, the land, and the community. All three need to be considered as an interactive whole, with the land as the primary guide and not thought of as primarily a resource. Whatever Beyond Organic becomes pointing,showing, seeing, touching,tasting may be the best way to explain it...........


----------------------- This is excerpted from:
http://www.science20.com/challenging_nature/what_meaning_organic_and_inorganic_food-676

Chemists now use the word organic to describe all complex, carbon-based molecules—whether or not they are actually products of an organism or products of laboratory synthesis. But many educated people in Western countries think that only some crops and cows are organic, while all others are not. How can one simple word -- organic -- have such different meanings?........

This movement first acquired the moniker organic in 1942, when J. I. Rodale began publication in America of Organic Farming&Gardening, a magazine still in circulation today.

According to Rodale and his acolytes, products created by—and processes carried out by—living things are fundamentally different from lab-based processes and lab-created products. The resurrection of this prescientific, vitalistic notion of organic essentialism did not make sense to scientists who understood that every biological process is fundamentally a chemical process. In fact, all food, by definition, is composed of organic chemicals.

As a result, the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) refused to recognize organic food as distinguishable in any way from nonorganic food.

The “organic food” movement was not taken seriously by U.S. government agencies until 1990, when lobbyists convinced Congress to mandate the establishment of a certification process for organic foods. Twelve years later, organic farmers finally obtained rules they wanted to prevent impostors from siphoning off market share. But as the USDA emphasizes, the "basis of these standards is on process, not product."

In other words, organic food is defined not by any material substance in the food itself, but instead by the "holistic" methods used on organic farms. Furthermore, the physical attributes of the product and any effects it might have on environment or health are explicitly excluded from U.S., European, and international definitions.

The implicit, unproven assumption is that organic agriculture is -- by its very nature -- better for the environment than so-called conventional farming. The European Commission states as a matter of fact that "organic farmers use a range of techniques that help sustain ecosystems and reduce pollution." Yet, according to self-imposed organic rules, genetic modification in the laboratory is strictly forbidden, even if its purpose is to reduce an animal's negative impact on the environment. (Canadian scientists have already engineered pigs to secrete an enzyme in their saliva that reduces the polluting phosphorous content of their manure by up to 75%.) On the other hand, spontaneous mutations caused by deep-space cosmic rays are always deemed acceptable -- without any testing -- since they occur "naturally."

In reality, laboratory scientists can make subtle and precise changes to an organism's DNA sequence, while high-energy cosmic rays can break chromosomes into pieces that reattach randomly and sometimes create genes that didn't previously exist.

Even more than a concern for the environment, organic producers and consumers are driven by faith in the presumed health benefits of their holistically produced food. In The Future of Food, Canadian farmer Marc Loiselle explains, “the underpinning of my conversion to organic food is not so much the economic point, it’s the health point, to protect my health, to protect my family’s health and my neighbors’.”

Irrespective of whether they buy into the health rhetoric or not, western consumers have been led to believe that organic farmers are never allowed to use toxic chemical pesticides. In fact, this carefully cultivated beliefs is simply false. Pyrethrin (with the formula C21H28O3) is one of several common toxic chemicals sprayed onto fruit trees by organic farmers (even on the day of harvesting); another allowed chemical is rotenone (C23H22O6), a potent neurotoxin, long used to kill fish, and recently linked to Parkinson's disease {Betarbet, 2000 #1258}.

How can organic farmers justify the use of these chemical pesticides? The answer comes from the delusion that substances produced by living organisms are not really chemicals. Since pyrethrin is extracted from chrysanthemums and rotenone comes from a native Indian vine, they are deemed organic instead.

However, the most potent toxins known to humankind, including ricin and strychnine, are all natural and organic. In fact, all currently used pesticides -- both natural and synthetic -- dissipate quickly and pose a miniscule risk to consumers. As the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences explains,
while pesticides may be found in many products, the levels at which they are present fall far below the levels known to not cause any health effects. The fact that they are found at all is only due to the significant advances in analytical chemistry. The tests are now so sensitive that the detection level that can be easily reached is equivalent to detecting one teaspoon of salt in one million gallons of water. Levels even lower than that can sometimes be detected.
 
Posts: 1114
Location: Mountains of Vermont, USDA Zone 3
70
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
There are a lot of things that can make one "beyond Organic" in practices. Certified Organic is a pretty low standard. It does not mean what many people think.

I have a cousin that raises chickens and sells organic eggs and chicken. He has 50,000 chickens each in two 100' long steel buildings. The chickens are "Organic" because he feeds them Organic feed and doesn't use non-approved antibiotics. They are not organic in the way that consumers thing of Organic or organic. They have no room to roam although they are "free-range" (not in cages). They never see the sunlight. They never graze on pasture. They never get to chase insects or eat grasses and other forages. These are not happy chickens.

Meanwhile our farm is organic but not Certified Organic. We have been organic (lower case 'o') long before the USDA stole the term Organic with their certification program. We are beyond Organic. We don't just not feed antibiotics, pesticides, insecticides, etc but our livestock graze out on our pastures and socialize as they should be able to do. There is a lot more to organic than Certified Organic.

Yes, there are some good people who do Organic the way it should be. Unfortunately all too much of the government "Certified Organic" has been taken over by Big Biz and the term abused.
 
Hanley Kale-Grinder
Posts: 112
Location: Mountain West of USA, Salt Lake City
1
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Joe Moore wrote:Hanley, Interesting. How are you mitigating run off or top soil loss? Do you have a basin shaped garden?



We "farm" 10 large backyards. The longest beds used are only 60' or so and everything is on drip tape. There isn't anywhere for the soil to erode to. All of the plots are on sandy loam ancient lake bed, or old terraced hillside plots. We have never had rich black soil to begin with. We fertilize with organic NPK, use compost and EM, and do some cover cropping. It seems to grow pretty nice veggies.
 
out to pasture
Posts: 12789
Location: Portugal
3786
goat dog duck forest garden books wofati bee solar rocket stoves greening the desert
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
To me, this photo illustrates pretty well the difference between 'organic' and 'permaculture'.



This is my other half planting pumpkins and various other veggies in rows on a recently tilled patch of ground. He's using manure to fertilise and mulch to reduce evapotation and keep weeds at bay. I think it counts as pretty good 'organic' practice, but there's not much permie about it.

If you look at the bigger picture though, you begin to see how that 'organic veggie patch' fits into a wider, more permaculture-esque, perspective.

The veggie garden is within a walled grassy paddock on the edge of the forest. The grass is grazed by a donkey several times a year, which feeds the donkey and keeps the grass under control to reduce risk of fire. The donkey is used for hauling timber out of the forest, among other things. There is a well in the paddock which is used to supply water to either the donkey or the veg garden. There are grape-vines growing around the well and along a central wall. Grazing is timed to ensure that the donkey doesn't eat them all. Manure from the donkey is collected and used on the vegetable garden. Dotted around the paddock are around twenty olive trees which supply both eating olives and oil, most of which used in the kitchen but some is turned into soap. They also supply shade for the donkey and the vegetable garden. Trimmings from the trees are used as mulch, firewood or craft projects, and waste from the pressed olives is spread over mulched areas. The wall is to keep wild boar from raiding the veggie garden. The boar are hunted by locals as a valued food source. The pumpkins are of three types, each a different species. They will not cross-pollinate so the seeds will be 'pure'. We grow a different selection on the main farm, which is too far away for cross-contamination, so they will be 'pure' too.

So to me, permaculture involves a much wider view and seeing things in a much more system-oriented way.
 
Steward of piddlers
Posts: 5942
Location: Upstate NY, Zone 5, 43 inch Avg. Rainfall
2726
monies home care dog fungi trees chicken food preservation cooking building composting homestead
  • Likes 8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
This is a dated discussion, but I'd be curious to see what others might come up with.

What does "Beyond Organic" mean to you?
 
master steward
Posts: 7596
Location: southern Illinois, USA
2797
goat cat dog chicken composting toilet food preservation pig solar wood heat homestead composting
  • Likes 7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
For people with good intentions, it is a great goal.  Oil, as it comes out of the ground, is organic.   So,  for my purposes, I try to grow what I eat.  I do make an effort to buy organic, but I am never comfortable that I am actually doing so. As others have pointed out, once a definition is in place, that seems to trigger a contest to see who can circumvent its intent.  
 
pollinator
Posts: 241
Location: Salado, Texas
50
hugelkultur forest garden fungi foraging medical herbs ungarbage
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I currently have kale worms which are decimating my small cabbage patch.  They are going right for the hearts too, the tenderest leaves which are just beginning to form heads.   I really want some cabbage this year, and so I've been dumping chugs of Diatomaceous earth (DE) in the centers to drive the worms out ...it does seem to kill them when they consume it.

...Buuut, I also notice lady bugs walking around on the leaves, so I feel that its probably better to just let go of the brassica family in my garden.   There's really not time for me to try and squish bugs or treat stuff.   I think its better to learn to like what grows in harmony with the bugs and local climate.

So, that's "beyond organic" to me:  finding harmony with all life in my garden.
 
James Bradford
pollinator
Posts: 241
Location: Salado, Texas
50
hugelkultur forest garden fungi foraging medical herbs ungarbage
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
...and this

...taking fruit a little early, before the birds and bugs can get to it.

If you wait until the fruits fall off the branch, it will be ripe.

Beyond Organic is a great variety name ...fyi for anyone selling their own varieties at farmers market or something

This is just something only a small scale operation can offer
20250517_082336.jpg
...ever notice how avocados ripen better if that tiny bit of branch is still attached?
...ever notice how avocados ripen better if that tiny bit of branch is still attached?
 
steward
Posts: 17422
Location: USDA Zone 8a
4457
dog hunting food preservation cooking bee greening the desert
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
To me, beyond organics means better than organics.

Making compost, making compost tea, growing mushrooms, etc.

Collecting leaves to make leaf mold ...

Making hugelkultur beds ...

Taking advantage of wood chips to improve soil...

Building with nature methods.

All things permies ....
 
master gardener
Posts: 4637
Location: Carlton County, Minnesota, USA: 3b; Dfb; sandy loam; in the woods
2387
7
forest garden trees chicken food preservation cooking fiber arts woodworking homestead ungarbage
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Any time you look at something that qualifies an operation as organic and choose to do better -- for our health, for the land, for the market, that's beyond organic. How many sprays and amendment are OMRI certified but aren't things you'd use? When you don't use those, you're beyond organic. I don't want to maximize lbs of produce per bed, I want to maximize nutrient density and flavor. I cultivate to allow weeds, save seeds, landrace my harvests, and plant in polyculture because those are my goals. That's beyond organic.
 
pollinator
Posts: 113
Location: Southern Tier NY; and NJ
53
monies foraging medical herbs
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
For what it's worth, there's a non-profit called the Farmer's Market Coalition who suggests that people who sell organically grown foods but who are exempt from 'needing' the government's certification -- which is those who sell less than $5000 worth of organic goods per year -- sign and display a particular list that states the regulations that they're following. It's in fairly simple language and although I'm providing a link, the list itself is as follows:

"I verify that…

1 - I sell less than $5,000 annually in organically labeled products.
2 - I have not planted any seeds that had synthetic treatments, such as fungicides or insecticides.
3 - I have planted all organic seeds if they were available in the variety and quantity I required.
4 - I have either grown transplants myself using only OMRI* or organic certifier organically approved potting mixes and other inputs or I have purchased certified organic transplants.
5 - I have only applied fertility, pest, disease and weed management inputs that have either been approved by OMRI or by an organic certification agency.  I understand that there are numerous agricultural input products that make organic claims that are untrue and I have gone the extra step to verify what I am using meets the organic law.
6 - I have implemented a soil building rotation on my farm, where annual crops of the same type are not grown in succession in the same field. I also use plant and livestock based materials such as cover crops and compost to continually improve my soils.
7 - I have not applied manure to my fields growing crops for human consumption any sooner than 90 days before harvest for crops that are not in contact with soil (i.e. sweet corn),  or 120 days before harvest for crops that are in contact with soil (root crops, tomatoes, peppers etc.).
8 - I have documentation that compost containing livestock originated components used on my farm meets the requirement of having a Carbon to Nitrogen ratio of between 25 to 1 and 40 to 1, has had a temperature maintained of 131 to 170 degrees F for 15 days and has been turned 5 times, or if in a static vessel, had this temperature maintained for 3 days.
9 - All mammalian livestock has been managed organically from the last third of gestation of their mother to the day of slaughter.  All poultry has been managed organically from the second day of life.  Organic management includes 100% certified organic feed.
10 - All livestock has had access to the outdoors, with ruminants receiving 30% of their nutrition from pasture during a minimum 120 day grazing season.  All animal health products and feed supplements have either been OMRI approved or approved by an organic certification agency.
11 - I have maintained documentation that verifies what I have stated above."

from: https://farmersmarketcoalition.org/can-any-farmer-use-the-word-organic/

... and then lines for your signature, contact info, etc.

I take this to be a good summary of what organic means to those of us who are not doing a full scale business of it, and therefore I'd say that "Beyond organic" would mean that I'm doing even better than those rules above. For example, as for #4, maybe I don't bring in ANY inputs in the way of soil or amendments. If my land has never (or at least in the decades I know of) had chemical treatments, and it's totally natural, and I bring no 'inputs' onto the land, then I would feel I'm "beyond organic" in that way. And # 3?? So... if I can't find organic seeds in the QUANTITY I need, I'm allowed to buy non-organic but still call myself organic?!?? For #10, if your animals get more than 30% of their nutrition from pasture or for longer than 120 days, I'd say you're beyond organic.... IF we are comparing ourselves to what the government labeling requirements are.

Now, if we forget the government exists and there are not rules to compare to... then to me, organic is 100% natural and there is no such thing as beyond organic; I'd put the word organic at the topmost apex of the goal, and I'd put the government regulations at "almost organic" or, "reasonably organic in this day & age".
 
gardener
Posts: 966
Location: Zone 5
426
ancestral skills forest garden foraging composting toilet fiber arts bike medical herbs seed writing ungarbage
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
That is true, it is good to figure out, where does “organic” begin and end? I don’t know where that is but I can give  an informal idea.

My neighbor has an organic garden, quite a beautiful one that is well mulched with good hay and straw, she uses cover crops and grows a  variety of perennial and annual vegetables, some currants, and flowers. To me that seems like the better end of the kind of gardening I would call organic, and maybe also permaculture.

To go beyond organic is an interesting question. In which direction? Do we improve it by spraying, or by adding more perennials, or what?

In my case I try to garden not in order to grow crops but to grow earth. Crops are the natural result of this—I spread seeds of various edible plants and usually only a few of them take but that is fine because the landscape becomes far more abundant with fat parsnips and orpine roots, lamb’s quarters and angelica and chickweed and dock and many others. I’m even hoping some amaranth will make it in this year. This is out in the meadow—there is also a more intensively weeded vegetable garden (which is still mostly perennial.)

I still get many of my vegetables from foraging elsewhere than this meadow so it isn’t as if I am sacrificing a lot of food space for the sake of wildness. But the wildness is there to come in and help me when I need it—all of the inedible plants become medicine when we need them, and we will come to need and ask more and more of these supposedly useless plants as we come closer to nature; the whole diversity of it sustaining us in ways that we never expected originally.

There are still garlic, chives, rhubarb, potatoes, squash, etc. amongst it all, but perhaps it’s an inversion of the ordinary idea of gardening. There is the saying, don’t feed the crops, feed the soil. But what if we say, as I try to do, don’t grow the crops, grow the ecosystem? Such that wildness is the thing we are making, within us and all around us, rather than control.
 
There are no more "hours", it's centi-days. They say it's better, but this tiny ad says it's stupid:
Extend your growing season with the Hotbed Plans eBook + Self Heating Winter Greenhouse Plans eBook
https://permies.com/wiki/192368/ebooks/Hotbed-Plans-eBook-Heating-Winter
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic