trying to better understand amazon

I have two items at amazon right now: the cards and the WBS2 dvds. I am selling about one per week of each. It doesn't come close to covering the food bill at basecamp. I know I should put the WDG dvds there and the jump drive thing there, but it seems like a lot of work for little return. So that makes me think that i am probably doing something wrong.

So I go to amazon and search for "permaculture". I'm on page 2. I suspect that the algorithms at amazon are set up in such a way that amazon thinks "how do we make the most money for amazon?" And since my sales are crappy, then I should be on page 2. I have 27 reviews and 4.8 stars. Which, for all the stuff above me that has more than ten reviews, that would put me in the top 4 or so.

And maybe it would be good to put a bit of thought into how to do well with the search for "playing cards". I'm not even in the first 20 pages of results. And that seems like the sort of brains to infect.

So I think that amazon probably uses a hundred variables, each weighted to be a bit different and they have many years of trial and error in tinkering with the algorithm to optimize their income. I am guessing that the thing with the most weight is: people search for "permaculture" click on the cards and buy them. If there is more of that, I will quickly move from page 2 to page 1.

So, as an experiment, I dropped the price of the cards to see if it moves.

Anybody have experience with amazon wanna give me advice?

Greetings Paul,

Amazon as well as all of the other BIG domains out there in weeb land do have that control that can bring one down. So it's maybe time you used some of their technology to help yourself more than they seem to be!

So you are on Facebook, and you have a couple of other websites.. sorry haven't been on your other sites in some time. but here's the gig. just a suggestion mind you, but the solution may be in the problem!

Get your web person to design a simple one page for each of your products. like a "gateway" page where you can choose to make it public or hidden within any domain. now with the proper use of search terms, search phrases and meta tags. etc let the search algorithms work for you. this way you get to play with what can work for your desired outcome and another great free spot to host a mini or promo site or page is sites.google.com! over the years I have created these one page or mini sites hosted by google as mentioned. gateway pages or simple promo pages that work well with the analytical technologies of google it self.

Use their tools to your advantage. So give this some thought Paul, speak it up with your web person and remember good yield takes time and nurturing.. plant some seeds today and "observe" there could be a three sister's in this be well!

paul wheaton wrote:I have two items at amazon right now: the cards and the WBS2 dvds. I am selling about one per week of each. It doesn't come close to covering the food bill at basecamp. I know I should put the WDG dvds there and the jump drive thing there, but it seems like a lot of work for little return. So that makes me think that i am probably doing something wrong.

>>You can't get it wrong. You can get it to flow better. The problem is the solution. Rather than looking at what is, start from total possibilty and work backwards.

>>Let's say this is selling to the right people, the ideal people, whose brains you really want to infect, and they're telling people to buy it and they're buying it too, and it's taking off like Minecraft so that the bank is freezing your account because it's going up too fast for you to possibly be getting the money from legal activities.

>>OK, so who are these people? For the card deck, they're not permaculturists already, necessarily, but they're people on the continuum. Just about any human being has an affinity for the planet. There are gazilions of nonprofits set up to help the planet. Most of them could be better leveraged and more skillful than they are, but the desire is there. So, how did they stumble on this deck of playing cards that suddenly gives them a big leg up in terms of understanding what they can do, individually, to further the world domination thingy in their own back yard or apartment?


So I go to amazon and search for "permaculture". I'm on page 2. I suspect that the algorithms at amazon are set up in such a way that amazon thinks "how do we make the most money for amazon?" And since my sales are crappy, then I should be on page 2. I have 27 reviews and 4.8 stars. Which, for all the stuff above me that has more than ten reviews, that would put me in the top 4 or so.

>>Focusing on this is a distraction. Yes it would be nice for reviews to be what sells products, but it's not. It's helpful to let go of focusing on the fake opportunities, frees up more mental space for focusing on real opportunities.

And maybe it would be good to put a bit of thought into how to do well with the search for "playing cards". I'm not even in the first 20 pages of results. And that seems like the sort of brains to infect.

>>Maybe, but only if it's fun. Your aphid article, I remember, was a big money-maker and you didn't do any research into how to have it make money. So you wanna look for the same kind of underlying principle. It may be most beneficial to get off the subject entirely and just let new solutions bump into you as you go about other activities and projects, but if this is really genuinely low-hanging fruit that's fun to pick then go for it.

So I think that amazon probably uses a hundred variables, each weighted to be a bit different and they have many years of trial and error in tinkering with the algorithm to optimize their income. I am guessing that the thing with the most weight is: people search for "permaculture" click on the cards and buy them. If there is more of that, I will quickly move from page 2 to page 1.

So, as an experiment, I dropped the price of the cards to see if it moves.

>> You can get some things to happen by dropping price, but it's not the most exciting solution.

Anybody have experience with amazon wanna give me advice?

In the email you sent out you mentioned trying to cover costs for the kitchen or something. It's really common for people to link a certain income stream with a certain expense, and this ties up energy needlessly. if you think of it in a garden, it's kind of like saying "if I just find the right pepper spray to repel nibbbles then I'll have things work right," when you could just pile stones near the garden and attract snakes. You don't ahve a slug problem but a lack of duck problem kind of thing. So decoupling the seeming solution from the actual problem, you can allow other ideas come to mind for funding the kitchen expenses. In other words, being too logical ties up your energy or focus, and then you miss seeing the better ideas that are right outside the box. You're really practiced at seeing the better solution outside the box when it's out in the garden, and the same underlying principle works in marketing.

It may seem too simplistic, but that's mostly because you look at how most people are marketing and even how most marketing gurus describe their own success and it all is every much a human-dominating paradigm. Not a lot of people marketing in a permactultury, working-wtih-nature's-design mindframe. But that doesn't mean it doesn't work!!!

This is rather general, but it's what comes to me to say and I think it opens up spaces for thinking outside the box and trusting what's outside the box a bit more.

The most definitive thing I can say is, with just about every one of my clients they've been brilliant at what love doing and then when they've thought about marketing they've suddenly performed at a fraction of their ability and tried to follow other people's guidance and logic, which has them really hampered. If they could just take a little risk, even a small movement toward trusting that they can market the same weird way they do their calling, they would begin to have much better success.

Hope something in here helps.

Oh, one other thing, you could start with the question of What games do I like to play and where do I find them?

I'm deliberately withholding other ideas I have because they're about my perspective not yours, and I'm focusing on tending to you and your relationship with your perspective.

Some of what helps Amazon move is 'Prime'. You have to pay for this annually; it gets you a few things including two day ship to most places. I live in a 'forgotten corner of nowhere' and it saves a LOT of petrol and time to click and have it here in two weekdays.

Amazon Fulfillment-- this means you send some goods TO Amazon and pay a small amount a month for them to store it somewhere in one of their regional fulfillment shipping warehouses; then when someone wants to buy, they see 'prime' and can click and by gumption it's there in two days. You only have to send them a few items 'on hand' unless they really start moving, in which case back up the truck

Ways for stuff to come up on there during a sort. Bend a brain on what people might sort for and get keywords so that when they search it comes up as a 'best match' fake off. I can search for say a drip irrigation fitting and I get all sorts of other related things like books and gardening gloves as a 'cast the net for related' matching. Or it can march on 'people looking at this also looked at' list.

Great answer! Amen to the three sisters!

brock foster wrote:Greetings Paul,

Amazon as well as all of the other BIG domains out there in weeb land do have that control that can bring one down. So it's maybe time you used some of their technology to help yourself more than they seem to be!

So you are on Facebook, and you have a couple of other websites.. sorry haven't been on your other sites in some time. but here's the gig. just a suggestion mind you, but the solution may be in the problem!

Get your web person to design a simple one page for each of your products. like a "gateway" page where you can choose to make it public or hidden within any domain. now with the proper use of search terms, search phrases and meta tags. etc let the search algorithms work for you. this way you get to play with what can work for your desired outcome and another great free spot to host a mini or promo site or page is sites.google.com! over the years I have created these one page or mini sites hosted by google as mentioned. gateway pages or simple promo pages that work well with the analytical technologies of google it self.

Use their tools to your advantage. So give this some thought Paul, speak it up with your web person and remember good yield takes time and nurturing.. plant some seeds today and "observe" there could be a three sister's in this be well!

I am using FBA - so the cards and the dvds are listed as "prime"

Get your web person to design a simple one page for each of your products. like a "gateway" page where you can choose to make it public or hidden within any domain. now with the proper use of search terms, search phrases and meta tags.

I'm not sure, but i think you are talking about google ranking and not amazon ranking, is that correct?

OK, so who are these people? For the card deck, they're not permaculturists already, necessarily, but they're people on the continuum. Just about any human being has an affinity for the planet. There are gazilions of nonprofits set up to help the planet. Most of them could be better leveraged and more skillful than they are, but the desire is there. So, how did they stumble on this deck of playing cards that suddenly gives them a big leg up in terms of understanding what they can do, individually, to further the world domination thingy in their own back yard or apartment?

So, how did I reach them?

paul wheaton wrote:I am using FBA - so the cards and the dvds are listed as "prime"

Good, then some of us just need to start investing and making nice reviews. Having some stars and reviews behind it helps selling it too.

Deb Rebel wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:I am using FBA - so the cards and the dvds are listed as "prime"

Good, then some of us just need to start investing and making nice reviews. Having some stars and reviews behind it helps selling it too.

Well, the WBS2 reviews could use some love. But I think the cards currently have excellent reviews. And the sales are weak.

Unlike google, my impression is that the amazon search stuff has to do with overall sales. This might explain why I keep hearing from people that have a new kindle book that is free for the first 48 hours - they get a whole lotta downloads, then when the price gets bumped up, they appear high on amazon searches.

Okay went and looked, typed in permaculture... got it on second page. Good to see Sepp's book on page one... of 20 pages

Need to mull on how to get it to come up more often; and under more searches.

Paul, and everyone else too; we need to post about these across media and blogs and everything else, so people hear about them. That helps too!

I just went and looked at the amazon page for the cards. I wonder if aiming them more at people who like gardening or like plants could be helpful. it talks a lot about permaculture and there are still so few people who know what it is and I still meet people who are afraid of permaculture which is strange to me especially when they tell me how they farm or garden and they are actually doing many things done in permaculture. maybe look at the other playing cards on amazon and try and see what helps them to sell? what are the most popular playing cards and what do they all have in common?

I was trying to say what meryt said... it has to come up under more search topics.

Let's think on what else can be added to get it to come up under gifts and gardening and and and...

Deb mentioned blogs. I think blogs could be a great way to get more people knowing about the cards and wanting them. maybe you could find people willing to write reviews? it is such an odd product to review though. people who are interested in cooperative board games might also be interested in these cards. there are a lot of cooperative board games that are designed to teach about nature and gardening. It seems like these would sort of fit into that niche market.

Here is the key that I am trying to understand:

I think that if I had set the cards up on amazon "the right way" then the cards would be listed high at amazon and would be selling a hundred decks a week. But since I just stumbled in and slapped them up, they are listed poorly at amazon and selling just one deck a week.

paul wheaton wrote:I think that if I had set the cards up on amazon "the right way" then the cards would be listed high at amazon and would be selling a hundred decks a week. But since I just stumbled in and slapped them up, they are listed poorly at amazon and selling just one deck a week.

I want to know how to manage my product listings at amazon "the right way"

Ask Jack. He knows more about how their system works than most. And internet marketing in general. He might already have an episode in five minutes with Jack dedicated to FBA.

paul wheaton wrote:

OK, so who are these people? For the card deck, they're not permaculturists already, necessarily, but they're people on the continuum. Just about any human being has an affinity for the planet. There are gazilions of nonprofits set up to help the planet. Most of them could be better leveraged and more skillful than they are, but the desire is there. So, how did they stumble on this deck of playing cards that suddenly gives them a big leg up in terms of understanding what they can do, individually, to further the world domination thingy in their own back yard or apartment?

So, how did I reach them?

I remember a nice exposure to the cards that really made them come to my attention when you gave some for a giveaway at the Northwest Edible Life blog. Here was the post about it: http://www.nwedible.com/?s=permaculture+playing+cards

You might target some other bloggers in the homesteading/permaculture/gardening realm to do something similar to get the word out or keep them on people's radar. The giveaways is nice and then maybe others will go buy some at Amazon. And if the blogger has any Amazon affiliation they'd probably get a kickback as well--I think that's how it works?

I feel like folks are giving some really great advice on how to get the cards into more brains. And the general recipe is to do a few hours work and that might result in selling five more decks.

But I suspect that if I spend a few hours figuring out how to manage my stuff on amazon "the right way" then it could lead to selling five more decks every day for many years. I'm hoping that there are people reading this that have sold lots of stuff on amazon and they know all about "the right way" and they might give me some guidance.

Second page of the search for permaculture out of twenty pages is pretty freaking good for the cards Paul.
The cards are a page ahead of One Straw Revolution on Kindle for crying out loud!

First thing I noticed on the listings is the product description, it is just a glob of text.
You should be able to use basic html for formatting of the description.

It's been awhile since I listed there but you used to have to use the bulk listing tools to take advantage of formatting.
Can someone confirm the above is no longer true?

Second thing I noticed is that there is three different ASINs for the cards, unless they are different products they should all have the same ASIN with 3 different "offers".
ASIN is supposed to be like a book ISBN for anything that doesn't have an ISBN assigned to it.
How much better sales rank would the cards have if sales from the three different ASINs were combined.
You'd probably need a few conversations with Amazon Marketplace reps to fix this.

Like Google, Amazon search rank is based on their own secret sauce of sales rank and linkage.
Having links incoming from a wide variety of sources will be a big asset.

I am so glad that you asked!

Not that I know anything about the way you have focused your inquiry, but just that I'd like to make a point: I tried to order these very cards and was told that they were not available in Canada.
This was some time ago.

Thanks!

Frances

Expanding on the description as a glob of text - not only is it a glob, it's not a very informative glob. As a potential buyer, I don't care what topics map to which cards in the traditional deck. I don't care that it was the highest grossing kickstarter in playing cards (though that does intrigue me). I want to know why I should buy these over a book or a DVD or some other garden-related educational item.

I just ordered a set (yes, the price is an important variable, but be careful with overusing promotions and devaluing your offering). It should come in on Tuesday, so I'll take a stab at some copy for the description when I actually have them in front of me. I'd also look at your categories. If I remember correctly, Amazon lets you choose several categories for your item and that affects how it shows up in search. Items categorized as garden related or educational are going to show up more highly than items like yours that are related and have great reviews but don't have the 'correct' category for amazons search algorithm. Toys and a Games is an incredibly crowded field, and one that doesn't really fit what you're offering. I don't remember the category options off hand, but that's worth looking into.

Maybe you could get a mention from Jane McGonigal, it's her thing (games to save the world--see ted talk, jane mcGonigal (sp.?) - she's pretty approachable, particularly for a specific goal or collaboration. And you have something really complete to talk about wiht her, she gets queries from people wiht something inchoate too)

Also can someone post what the abbrevations refer to?? WDG is WOrld Domination Gardening, WSBS? what are the others? Thanks.

Ask a gamer where they get their games. A gamer loves games, period--don't care if they're high tech, low-tech, whatever, as long as they're FUN. Dungeons and Dragons-y people. I don't know, my old girlfriend does those things, maybe I can ask her but I might not hear back.

If there were a facebook-ready electronic version it would take off like wildfire, I think...people are sick of Farmville. Just sayin'.

paul wheaton wrote:

OK, so who are these people? For the card deck, they're not permaculturists already, necessarily, but they're people on the continuum. Just about any human being has an affinity for the planet. There are gazilions of nonprofits set up to help the planet. Most of them could be better leveraged and more skillful than they are, but the desire is there. So, how did they stumble on this deck of playing cards that suddenly gives them a big leg up in terms of understanding what they can do, individually, to further the world domination thingy in their own back yard or apartment?

So, how did I reach them?

I second that. If they where a facebook game everyone would be playing

Frances Nokes wrote:I am so glad that you asked!

Not that I know anything about the way you have focused your inquiry, but just that I'd like to make a point: I tried to order these very cards and was told that they were not available in Canada.
This was some time ago.

Thanks!

Frances

I spent months trying to fix things so that they could ship outside the US. In the end, no such luck.

Kirsten Simmons wrote: Toys and a Games is an incredibly crowded field, and one that doesn't really fit what you're offering.

I spent months trying to get it into the books stuff, but it only messed up the page for all those months. I had five FBA support people telling me how easy it would be and then the last FBA person saying "you can't do that".

So, yes, I'm open to listing it in more categories. Suggestions?

Oops, I just remembered that it's really a regular playing deck, not its own game, right? (That's part of what was brilliant about the idea, and why it succeeded where so many "let's make a game to teach people abotu permaculture!!!" ideas haven't yet born fruit nor fungus) BUT...someone can still invent a new card game based on the backs of the cards...some inventive gamer genius will inevitably do this at some point. Not your work.

The thing is, Paul, the inspiration for this was originally a very unique kind of thing, it has a life of its own, and the means whereby you introduce it into the world likewise has to have a life of its own. It has to be based in fun. That's what my gut keeps telling me. You'll know it when you see it.

Maybe a gift teachers could give graduates of their PDC's...? something tangible and aesthetic they can keep?

It's not just one thing, it's reall several, in dffering degrees and ways: it's a
--gift
--aesthetic object
--game
--permaculture education tool
--gardening tool
--idealism tool

I'd say in that order.

If you just got casinos to buy them, my hunch is they'd go unnoticed...but people playing in a more relaxed setting would actually get curious and read the cards...

watch the Jane McGonigal thingy, that's the strongest hit I've got on this so far, aside from the general sense of trust your instincts over reason.

http://www.ted.com/talks/jane_mcgonigal_gaming_can_make_a_better_world it's super-fun anyway, well worth 20".

A gift box type set; maybe with a few other things like a nice pack of gardening gloves or better yet, a nice bar of 'get that grunge off soap' made by a permie; recycled paper, tied with jute and with a little gift card to fill out to and from; and put it up at double the price. Or the option of deck only.

The gift for the gardener type/homesteader wannabe? Make it country kitsch; maybe wrap the soap and the deck in a piece of gingham and tie a chicken cookie cutter to it. The idea is to make it cute enough to make people buy it as a gift....

And offer the deck without the kitsch as an option. Just a thought to move those decks and make an income stream.

(I also seen you need a Queen of the Kitchen; if it wasn't 4 states commute I'd be on your doorstep; with my grandpa's prohibition brewing and vinting recipes, even. I know how to can stuff, cure and/or smoke meat, collect and make dyes, all those good things)

Amazon plays by an interesting set off rules. Theft and plagiarism are fine there as long as you don't get caught on there. They say they are against it, but in my experience they do very little to regulate anything and never take any responsibility in it. Right now, I see three versions of your cards on there offhand and each from a different seller by the look of it. The cards are legit I am sure but hard to be sure which is yours. Only one lists you as the sold by, so I will assume that is the genuine one. The description there is a turn off though the price looks to be lower than anyone else at the moment so that is good. To raise yourself in Amazon the best bet is to improve your SEO through careful titles and keywording. Another helpful thing is to sell more things. Each item is cumulative so that when you sell one, you are more likely to sell another as well. Each sale shows a history of good reviews, which puts you higher on the list as well. More products = more reviews = more sales = higher rank = more reviews = more sales.... you get the idea.

Giving away review copies to bloggers, certain writers and the editors of related magazines can lead to postings that in turn lead to more sales as well. They also create a number of backlinks to your product that will improve its overall performance. A good example might be having someone do a review for Countryside Magazine or sending a deck to the editors of mother earth news. It costs you a deck, but could potentially give you a solid positive review article that drives traffic both to this site and to the amazon linked to your deck. Just some ideas.

A few things.

For the short term, talk to other retailers about them. Amazon is mostly not permaculture / organic stuff. Maybe GrowOrganic.com needs a new homestead Category of games. Or slightly educational games.


For the longer term things.

Random giveaways, with the hope of building mindshare / others wondering where to get their own.

Drop a deck in coffee shops that keep games for people to play.
Give them out as raffle gifts to local permaculture groups, schools, libraries, prisons, jails, old folks homes, bingo, etc.


I'm not good at these things ether.

I spent months trying to get it into the books stuff, but it only messed up the page for all those months. I had five FBA support people telling me how easy it would be and then the last FBA person saying "you can't do that".

When? At the moment, Amazon's category description mentions card decks explicitly. http://services.amazon.com/services/soa-approval-category.htm

If you can get it in books, that opens a whole new world of keyword options.

I don't have any recommendations regarding Amazon, but you could try selling them through organic nurseries, such as our North End Organic Nursery in Boise, Idaho and even prepper stores (preppers tend to be very aware of permaculture). The cards are more of an impulse item rather than something people would go looking for, so I think you should consider other avenues of marketing. You would be selling then wholesale, but you would be moving a higher quantity, I think. Hope this helps. By the way, I love the cards!

Hi Paul,

If you find the Amazon sales improvements you are looking for, might it be a good time to also look again at selling internationally. A few times I know I would've bought from you but the postage costs were very high.

Whilst the UK market is smaller than the USA, with Ireland we make up nearly 70 million potential customers. If you find a distribution point in the EU (I may well be interested - though thought Amazon could take on the logistics), then you could also then sell to the 27 other EU countries without any further import/value added taxes.

As an example of the current market here, Amazon.co.uk does not list your cards, and on eBay.co.uk the only packs shipping from within the EU are selling for $46.17 a single pack!

Kind regards, John.

The other advantage with the UK market is that the UK is quite dence lots of people in a little space.

David

Unless you are listing something as a SALE, do not drop the price. Standard retail that I was taught is to charge 185% of wholesale, or more. If you are trying to get rid of inventory then raise the price and list it as "Few Remaining". Unless the cost is significant~list the price including shipping, not separately.
I have not seen an Amazon link for your products. Using these links will get you credit for anything bought as long as that link was used to get to Amazon. You'll have to have a sales account with them. Have the link go directly to the product relevant to that topic or page
There are three links at the end of all your initial topics. Add another for Amazon and use their logo to do it. It can be the same font size as your current links. Just make sure it is always one of these links. Use as many META Tags/Keywords as they allow and be creative with these.
Get people to write reviews of your products they buy, as the more reviews the higher the listing.
Your Permies.Com logo is on the top left of the page. Put links to your products on the right side in the same size font. ex: Amazon, Vimeo, any product you're drop shipping or selling directly from inventory. One to three links ~~Don't go overboard here, clutter is not good.

I haven't sold anything on Amazon, but as a consumer, here are my thoughts:

You're trying to sell $20 playing cards...and honestly, it sounds like many of us on this forum are trying to scrape together a few bucks here and there to buy yarrow seeds and lentils. I read the other day that solar panels never would have gotten off the ground if rich yuppies from wine country hadn't started trecking out to the hippie store in Weed, CA to buy them because they were "green." So if you're truly wanting to infect new minds, I would go in a different direction for customer demographic. I'd target the people who have $20 to blow on playing cards without a second thought. They would buy these because they are beautiful, because they are more unique than the neighbors', because they match the decor in the living room, etc.

Your product is beautiful, but its description on Amazon does not do it justice, nor will it appeal to the average luxury-eco seeking consumer. I visited the Williams-Sonoma website for some ideas on selling points and highly recommend adding this kind of language to your descriptions:

Designed by Pacific Northwest artist Alexander Ojeda, these one-of-a-kind playing cards are fully functional and truly beautiful.
These unique cards would make a beautiful conversation piece in your home, or an inspiring gift for a garden-loving friend.
Each card has its very own hand-drawn description of an important Permaculture concept or personality.
A large percentage of each playing card purchase will directly benefit "Wheaton Laboratories," an experimental eco-village and farm in the Bitterroot mountains of Montana.
These cards are made in the USA, and are Bicycle quality.

These folks will pay $70 for a used gardening hand-fork from Scotland, just because it is used, and from Scotland. I think playing up the beauty and artisan qualities of the cards would go a long way, as would adding them to the gardening category. If people go looking for a unique gift for a friend who loves gardening, these would definitely be a good option, where as if people just want playing cards, why shell out $20 for a description that begins "52 regular playing cards, plus 2 jokers?"

I updated the description a little. It takes a while until changes show up.

Shit! Hearing that you have to sell cards to pay the food bill has really burst my bubble! I was under the illusion that your massive hugelkultur plots were cranking out vast quantities of awesomely delicious edibles, plus the paddock shift critters and wild game. I wonder how long until that happens?

Anyways, I searched amazon for Paul Wheaton and only found the RMH DVDs, podcast 271, and the playing cards. Added those to my amazon wish list for future purchase. I would add WDG and any of your other goodies if they were on amazon.

As far as increasing sales, if the cards have other permie ideas beyond gardening, you could list the cards in those other categories too - building, energy, critters, etc.