Improving clay soil on the cheap

Thomas Crow wrote: Also dock might be a great resource for you.  I brought in comfrey at first because I was supposed to, then I watched my land and watched the way that dock changes everything around it and what soils it grows on.  I'd never have worried about comfrey if I know then what I know now.  Sooner or later we'll start the chop and drop process, but that's probably another year from now

Could you go into more detail of what your observations on dock have been?

I seeded the edges of a new bed with dock this fall. I'm expecting 60 row feet of chop and drop next summer. I'll also use it for additions to salad, and a maybe barrier to grasses in that bed.

Thomas. Are you saying you put wool into the soil or am I reading that wrong? If so what does that do

They bring nutrients up from the soil and store water in their taproots that break the soil open for oxygen to infiltrate.  We've just been letting it go wild and for me what I've noticed is that it's only germinated for us on areas that are straight clay with very little (if any) top soil.  While I'm sure I'd be surprised at the number of plants if I went out there and counted, it's still not actually that many, by the way.  By "let them go wild" I just mean we let them fulfil their lifecycle.  Far more of them germinate than mature.

It just seems that they know what their job is, they get in, they do it quickly and without fuss, and then they stop showing up when they're no longer needed.  Everything that's growing near dock (which is only grass and other "weeds") seems much happier than it was before the dock germinated.  The dock itself is generally much bigger, greener, more lush this year with the exception of one spot that is super compacted clay where it is struggling to get hold and is sad and wimpy.  BUT seeing the two different versions of the same plant 20 metres apart this year I can recognise that more of our dock was sad and wimpy last summer and the summer before.

I'll be surprised if the dock comes back to the places where they're currently thriving, and some of the places where they're not thriving are on the list of spots to get a healthy dose of manure so it's not likely that I'll be able to compare apples to apples next year.

It's entirely possible that I'm misattributing the positive consequences of an active ecosystem with HEAPS of insects and spiders, mice, and birds that eat, prey, and defecate on our land and giving unnecessary credit to dock.  BUT, I don't think I am.  Things that grow where dock is now or where it has been just seem to be healthier.

Plus I'm all about edible plants that take care of themselves - got no time for a fiddly ass garden.

Joe - at first I put it *ON* my soil.  I pinned it up along the faces of our terraces to slow erosion.  Our wind and rain is ridiculous for several months of the year, so I needed something up there after the earthworks until vegetation got established.  Great for the first 18 months.

Then we got a dog and her antics have done what mother nature hadn't yet and she pulled down most of the wool.

Now it goes in the soil.  Wool will absorb a pretty significant amount of water/moisture and hold onto it until the surroundings are more dry, then it will slowly release the water.  Great for us as we're not interested in active irrigation in the least.  

It adds good if temporary structure to soil, has HEAPS of nitrogen and other trace minerals, and insects seem to like it - bumblebees (and many other insects) nest in what's left on the surface, worms and such seem to eat/incorporate what's below the surface adding more texture to our clay soils.

If you've only got a little, I'd dig your planting hole a little deeper, grab a handful of wool and toss it in, cover it with a bit of soil, then plant and backfill as normal.

That is very interesting. I’ve never heard anything like that. I’ve tried several “never heard of that” things since I joined this site and am starting to have success. I don’t have access to wool that I know of though. I’d definitely like to give it a go though. I love showing my neighbor all the crazy stuff I try now :)

I've seen ideas about  using  human hair in a similar way.
Thing is, human hair from salons  or even barbar shops is likely to be filled with weird chemicals.
The people who don't use chemicals on their hair also don't go to those places much.

Sheep may have some treatments, but overall I would trust the wool over the human or even pet hair that is available in mass.

Have you considered a microbial soil conditioner?

I am currently facing the same thing. When I first started gardening, I had a suburban clay lot that was so stubborn, my husband had to dig the holes for my few annuals because I couldn't budge the soil. And no earthworms.

Without much thought, I buried old salad greens out there-- maybe 5 times and the equivalent of a single serving.

Maybe three years later, my soil there was rich, with earthworms in every spadeful.

I've learned a lot since then, but the bottom line is that not using chemicals and providing stuff for the little guys to eat goes a long way. We just moved to a property that's heavily clay and this time, I bought microbes that you pour in. I'm pretty sure I'll have the same results I did 30 years ago!

I have an old beater truck now but for decades I hauled all my soil amendments, mostly horse manure, in a small hatchback car. Double-bagged in garbage bags, a little at a time. Same for leaves and wood chips.

Maybe there is a coffee shop near you that would save a bucket or two of coffee grounds on days that you go to town? That would be easy to transport.

Honestly I would just keep buckets or bags in the back of the car and scrounge biomass at any opportunity.

To spoed things up I would set up earthworm pits in holes dug strategically in the soil you want to amend and let them work out from there to improve the soil. Feed those with the organics you are able to collect. I probably wouldn’t bother with getting composting worms for this. Just go pick up a bunch of earthworms off the road when the weather is warmer.

And yes, plant seeds!!! Whatever will grow and produce biomass. That is (literally) your biggest bang for your buck as a packet of seeds could grow into a volume of material that would barely fit in a wheelbarrow, and add so much life to the soil. Vining plants like squash planted in your amended worm pits, maybe.

Thomas Crow wrote:

Now it goes in the soil.  Wool will absorb a pretty significant amount of water/moisture and hold onto it until the surroundings are more dry, then it will slowly release the water.  Great for us as we're not interested in active irrigation in the least.  

It adds good if temporary structure to soil, has HEAPS of nitrogen and other trace minerals, and insects seem to like it - bumblebees (and many other insects) nest in what's left on the surface, worms and such seem to eat/incorporate what's below the surface adding more texture to our clay soils.

If you've only got a little, I'd dig your planting hole a little deeper, grab a handful of wool and toss it in, cover it with a bit of soil, then plant and backfill as normal.

This is brilliant. Not just for clay - I’m going to try it for amending the very depleted sandy soil on part of our land. I already save all human and dog hair (a ton of that from the livestock guardian dog who is a giant hairball) and add that to compost but never thought about the soil amending properties of wool.

Do you have wild mushrooms growing on your land?  Look into making a fungi slurry like Dr. Redhawk teaches.

If you physically can't bring in large quantities of organic matter yourself, that definitely complicates things. Other than bringing in absolute loads of finished compost or rotted manure and working it into the soil, there's no sort of easy button.

A few options, all of which will take time and work:

Sign up for Chipdrop, which is an app where you can sign up, and when landscapers are trimming trees and chipping the branches in your area, they'll dump them at your property rather than having to take them to a dump or municipal composting facility. This is very much a luck of the draw sort of thing depending on your area. Once you have plenty of woodchips, spread them in a deep layer over the clay soil. In what will seem like magic, capillarity will improve through the soil as it stays a constant temperature and moisture level, worms will start moving into it and decomposing wood chips will slowly infiltrate down into the clay.

Sign up on Nextdoor, which is like a neighborhood social media site. Post that you're starting a community composting site to help decrease waste in your area. Build a tidy looking compost pile or two, and there WILL be people in your neighborhood that will drop stuff off for it. I'd anticipate you'll probably need a stock of brown materials to balance out what will mostly be kitchen scraps, so keep leaves or shredded paper or something in supply to help balance it out.

Fork the entire area (a lot of what makes clay soil so hard to grow in is that air and water can't easily penetrate down to the root zone, so by opening channels, you can hopefully get some life established in the soil), and plant a cover crop. Will depend on your individual climate somewhat, but ryegrass, clover, field peas, daikon radishes would all be good places to start. Fertilization of some sort may be required to establish the cover crop. Before it goes to seed, cut it all down and leave it on the soil surface. You'll probably have to repeat a couple times before the soil quality increases markedly, but the roots and root exudate left in the soil will leave organic matter in the soil, and the mulched remains will keep the soil at a nice temperature and moisture level.

When I bought my Virginia farm 22 years ago, some areas had clay so hard it bent my shovel.  I asked local tree-trimming crews to drop 2 feet of non-walnut wood chips on the proposed garden for free. I threw a little fresh horse manure onto the mix and was stunned in 6 months that the worms, bacteria, etc. did their job to break down much of the wood chips revealing perfect soil when I pushed aside the top layer to make foot paths.
If a dump truck can't get to your backyard, have them drop the load where they can and use a wheelbarrow. It's pretty easy to carry horse manure in a car, just tarp everything before adding containers of manure. Adding a hitch to a small car is worth investigating. I used my vintage Mercedes as a 3/4 ton pickup.  Lowe's rents their truck by the hour or day, but it is first-come/first-serve.  Sometimes it is worth renting a UHaul/Penski pickup for a day to get a year's worth of hauling done.
Try to find horses who aren't fed grain, chemical wormers, and meds which aren't good for the soil critters you are feeding.  I use one-day old horse manure on top of perennials (asparagus, horseradish) and around shrubs as well as piling it over old sprouting potatoes on the ground with great results. I suspect it is because my horses are healthy and mostly chemical-free.
I agree with everyone who said, "feed the soil critters" which to me means keeping soil covered year-round (cover crops, chips, leaves, cardboard, weeds, mash, coffee grounds), only digging swales in heavy rain areas or small depressions to catch water in dry areas, and avoiding lime and chemical fertilizers. I avoid jerusaleum artichokes and gojis which are invasive in my region.
If you like animals, consider some chickens, goats, or mini horses. They are lots of work, but also fun and can help improve the land if you do it right.
Unrefined salt is essential for soil critters. Several of my horse winter paddocks were overrun with thousands of yellow dock plants, especially where the horses poop making the high nitrogen environment perfect for weeds and too rich for grasses.  I switched back to feeding my horses Redmond Salt instead of white refined salt and within 2 months the yellow dock disappeared and was replaced with grasses.  Redmond salt is heavy and expensive, but I am lucky the East Coast supplier is 45 minutes away. A cheaper option to add beneficial salt is Korean Natural Farming and Jadam recipes, most of which can be made from items already in your pantry.  
I have had luck with products from Farm for Profit which I sprinkle on some of my paddocks by walking with a gallon container with holes poked in the lid. I can now dig post holes by hand with a clam shell digger in less than 10 minutes where I sprinkled FFP additives.
BTW, I currently operate my 97-acre horse farm without a tractor or truck. My hunter moves hay bales for me with his ATV a few times a year (otherwise I roll them by hand with the help of a friend). He also carries fence supplies to the lower pastures.  Otherwise, I walk and carry my supplies and tools. Occasionally, I recruit the horses to do some of the heavy carrying.
Keep us posted on your progress.

William Bronson wrote:I've seen ideas about  using  human hair in a similar way.
Thing is, human hair from salons  or even barbar shops is likely to be filled with weird chemicals.
The people who don't use chemicals on their hair also don't go to those places much.

My son is a hair stylist, so I often take my own hair back with me or any recent that he knows are chemical free.  My hair grows like thistles (fast and prolific) so every 8 weeks or so I get a bit.  Mostly I throw it in the compost pile, or have tried throwing it around/in groundhog hole (no observable deterrence 😂).  But I will try digging it in.
We had straight city fill clay here.  First thing I did was find a free truck of horse manure, but it is heavy and hard to spread over large area.  We have, over the last decade, intensively used the area tree services who will generally drop for free.  They have to travel and pay to drop otherwise,  it's a great tradeoff. The first year I spread about 20 tree service truck loads over 3 city lots.  Each year I add more, although now we keep it to paths and add compost to beds.  The garden is prolific, but annual vegetables are still a bit fussy.  Our herbs (our main interest) are spectacular.

Cathy -   I completely sympathize with you.  I've been working on my clay soil for 6 years now....  

I'm 72 years old and unlike my youthful self, I seem to run out of steam after a couple of hours.  Even the methods that don't involve digging still involve a lot of work.   I was able to get 10 large garbage-size bags of leaves from a neighbor, but just getting them into the back of the pickup truck and then getting them back out again was gruesome.  I was able to pick up several truckloads of compost, which they loaded with a tractor.  But shoveling it out of the truck into a pile was also gruesomely difficult, not to mention filling, carrying and emptying 5-gallon buckets to wherever I'm preparing individual planting areas.  My own puny efforts at creating my own compost just didn't result in enough compost to do any good.

I have a large backyard and front garden area which were badly abused by the previous owner, covered in black plastic, then gravel, then river rock.   This area used to be a hill, which was cut down for the house site.  So there is no topsoil.  We are in an area filled with basalt rocks, ranging from fist-size to double-basketball size.  In addition, we have this 'stuff' that is sort of the Idaho version of decomposed granite.   It's compressed into 'rocks' that are hard a concrete - we even tried drilling into some - when they are in the ground.   Dig them up and expose them to water and they 'melt'.

I've been able to improve small areas at a time.  Here's what has worked for me:

Dig a small area just for the plant I'm currently planting.   I dig it larger than needed, just so the plant doesn't end up encased by clay.  

Take all basalt rocks out and as much of the gravel as I can.  This ends up leaving a much larger 'hole' without any soil.

Add enough compost to fill the hole back up, mixing it well with whatever existing soil is left after removing the rocks.  I also try to 'blend' it into the sides, so the plant roots don't get shocked and just curl around themselves in the hole I've dug

Cover the top of the newly planted area with wood chips or leaves

In areas that I haven't yet planted, but are potential 'next year' areas, I cover with wood chips.

Things I've tried that the jury is still out on:

Homemade compost:   I just don't have enough 'stuff' to try to make it work.

Mulch 4" deep:  Those 10 bags of leaves covered an area 10x10 4-inches deep.   This was a very weed-infested area (well, when you mowed it, it looked like lawn, but it used to be a hay field), so I covered it in cardboard first.    The first year, I covered the cardboard in prunings.   The cardboard disintegrated well, and the prunings kind of did.   But there was zero improvement to the soil.   Last year, I covered that same area in those leaves.   I had to fence out the chickens, who are very good as spreading the leaves into obliteration, but reducing the 10 inches down to 2.  We'll see if there is any improvement this spring.

Cover crops:   Last year I did plant some winter rye over one of those Idaho-dg rocks.   We'll see if it helped.   But it seems that whenever I plant mixed or grain-type cover crops, I don't get around to mowing them down in time, so they self-seed and I have new 'weeds' everywhere.  I need to find a cover crop that won't matter

.

Other plant soil improvers:  I tried planting Daikon radishes to help.   I didn't think it helped very much.   The following growing season, the soil was back to the way it was.  Sunflowers will barely grow - I've tried them twice over huge areas, but they grew sparsely and sporadically.

Still working on it.  I know that one of my issues is that I can't/don't keep the clay soil covered sufficiently during the summer.  It dries, cracks, and I know that's bad.   It's just so hard to keep it all covered in 'something' during the summer'.

Anyway - as others have said, there's not much you can do to 'quickly' improve it.

Can you get a rabbit or 2? I don’t have access to large animal manure and I’ve read rabbit manure is one of the best since it’s a cold manure and doesn’t need to be composted. I built a couple tractors and propped them up on cinderblocks over my mounded beds. They’re create SO. MUCH. MANURE for such a small animal! They’re cute and fun to be around, so I see their feed costs as a budgeted item for building compost/soil.

We are constantly on the look out for tree crews on the side of the roads and have been the happy recipient of several tractor trailer loads of wood chips as well as enough firewood for the next several years. My dad used to tell me to “always be willing to think outside the box and never be afraid to ask questions” and it was excellent advice for my homestead.

Constancia Wiweru wrote:Have you considered a microbial soil conditioner? ...

this time, I bought microbes that you pour in. I'm pretty sure I'll have the same results I did 30 years ago!

Constancia, you are right.

And it is not necessary to buy stuff as the microbial conditioner can be made right at home.

It is called compost tea.

Here are some threads that you or others might find interesting:

https://permies.com/t/132842/Soil-Mineralization-Recipe

https://permies.com/t/117604/composting/Types-Compost-Teas-Exist-Favorite

https://permies.com/t/63914/Soil

Dan Fish wrote:Hey Lila, thanks for the encouragement. Also, I bet the clay will make better garden soil once you get it "adjusted". Lots of minerals and water capacity after you do a few million hours of heavy labor hahaha.

How true, how true.  Many years ago, I had clay soil that did NOT have rocks in it.   It was very difficult to get a plant started, but once it got started it grew like crazy.  Clay has lots and lots of nutrients in it (usually), and whatever you put in it doesn't just flow right back out.

What a lot of wonderful discussion and activity on a topic of great importance, and longevity.  Seems like we’ll be discussing this for ever!

One important thing I want to mention is how important it is to not take just any free manure!

Someone gave the pitch for micro organisms and soil biota.  Commercial and conventional operations for the most part, believe in pharmaceutical type wormers.  It’s an insidious form of toxic gick.  The compounds that try to kill parasites (“worms”) are still active after a pass through a host animal, they kill organisms in the soil.  There went your allies friends and partners.  They impede the organisms that would make compost out of raw materials, so it’s not simply a matter of composting the free manure.

Next, I want to extol the virtues and accomplishments of “live roots in the soil”.  Roots make exudates, goop they leak into the soil, which bacteria and fungi utilize to grow.  They also exude the gluey substances that make soil aggregates.  What accounts for the “cottage cheese” texture and appearance of healthy soil.  What that does for clay soil is allow for penetration of roots, earthworms and water- irrigation or precipitation- into the soil.  Currently on the majority of agricultural soils of the North American continent we’ve destroyed this structure.  So we get flooding and erosion with precipitation, and drought in between because we prevented the rain from soaking in and recharging aquifers.  

What to do, what to do!?  The person who wrote early on in this thread explained no till, and weed control through mowing, and how well that worked for them.  

The root crops do drill holes in the soil, penetrate the soil, then rot in place.  They also feed the soil microbes.  Grasses, when mowed or grazed also feed the micro biota with their exudates, and when mowed or grazed strategically  are stimulated to put out a heavy dose of exudates. Some grasses have roots that go down 18 feet.  Big blue stem is one, I am sure there are others.

If you’re going with grasses, maybe to strategically mow for mulch or composting, if you don’t have livestock to eat it, there are warm season and cool season grasses.  Usually the weeds that grow rampantly in summer are C-4 plants.  C-4 is a specialized photosynthesis process.  Basically, when there’s that much sun and heat, the C-4 plants thrive because they utilize CO2 “faster”.  Some grazing grasses are C-4.  On my place, I got a combination of C4 and C3 (regular photosynthesis) pasture plants.  

And here’s the wonderful thing about clay:  it’s worth the extra effort.  It has a much higher CEC, cation exchange capacity.  Most minerals needed by plants come in the form of cations (an ion with a positive charge).  The ions with positive charges stick to clay in a way they don’t stick to sand or silt.  So, there they are waiting for the plants.  Clay soils have the potential for much greater fertility than any other.

What I discovered when trying to develop parent material into soil was to start small.  In an area that could be covered by a pallet, I would scuff the proto soil, put seeds down, (nitrogen fixers, deep rooted plants, annuals like oats, big biomass producers, etc) inoculate with a source of healthy soil microbiome, then some clean straw, or leaves, or lightly used animal bedding.  Then I would water it then put the pallet over it.  The function of the pallet was to protect from sun and wind and other climate extremes, protect from chickens and rabbits, etc.

It was a way to go about it in a small way.  Easy to gather materials for a plot that size, easy to complete quickly.  So I made islands, and the healthy soil moved out from the islands.

I had less than 1%carbon in my soil, and that included the inorganic “calcium carbonate “. In 3 years I had black soil 6 inches deep.  In the area where we measured, I added NOTHING but seeds and water.  And I strategically mowed.  The islands I described went deeper and faster.

Thekla McDaniels wrote:In an area that could be covered by a pallet, I would scuff the proto soil, put seeds down, (nitrogen fixers, deep rooted plants, annuals like oats, big biomass producers, etc) inoculate with a source of healthy soil microbiome, then some clean straw, or leaves, or lightly used animal bedding.  Then I would water it then put the pallet over it.  The function of the pallet was to protect from sun and wind and other climate extremes, protect from chickens and rabbits, etc.

It was a way to go about it in a small way.  Easy to gather materials for a plot that size, easy to complete quickly.  So I made islands, and the healthy soil moved out from the islands.

I had less than 1%carbon in my soil, and that included the inorganic “calcium carbonate “. In 3 years I had black soil 6 inches deep.  In the area where we measured, I added NOTHING but seeds and water.  And I strategically mowed.  The islands I described went deeper and faster.

What a GREAT idea to use a pallet both to 'measure' the area AND to cover it up!   I have extra pallets that I can use for that.  Question though.... a pallet has boards on both sides.  Did you remove any of the boards on the side that was 'down', so the seeds could grow there as well?   Did the pallet allow for enough sun to let the seeds grow?  I'm super anxious to try this method.  

Thekla McDaniels wrote:

If you’re going with grasses, maybe to strategically mow for mulch or composting, if you don’t have livestock to eat it, there are warm season and cool season grasses.  Usually the weeds that grow rampantly in summer are C-4 plants.  C-4 is a specialized photosynthesis process.  Basically, when there’s that much sun and heat, the C-4 plants thrive because they utilize CO2 “faster”.  Some grazing grasses are C-4.  On my place, I got a combination of C4 and C3 (regular photosynthesis) pasture plants.  

Can you elaborate more on C-4 and C-3?  Is there some kind of chart somewhere that tells the difference... except that weeds are usually C-4 and grow faster in sun and heat?  Or can you point me to more info on these.

Loretta Liefveld wrote:

What a GREAT idea to use a pallet both to 'measure' the area AND to cover it up!   I have extra pallets that I can use for that.  Question though.... a pallet has boards on both sides.  Did you remove any of the boards on the side that was 'down', so the seeds could grow there as well?   Did the pallet allow for enough sun to let the seeds grow?  I'm super anxious to try this method.  

Loretta, I did not take boards off the side that was going to be down but it wouldn’t be a bad idea. I usually over seed I can’t help it, so what germinated was probably just where there weren’t boards directly on top of it and that was enough I guess.

Have fun with it!

I will get to the photosynthesis hopefully later this evening. Right now I need to split wood before I can build my fire.

Thekla McDaniels wrote:
One important thing I want to mention is how important it is to not take just any free manure!

Commercial and conventional operations for the most part, believe in pharmaceutical type wormers.  It’s an insidious form of toxic gick.  The compounds that try to kill parasites (“worms”) are still active after a pass through a host animal, they kill organisms in the soil.

Thank you so much for this! I got some manure from a local and didn't think to ask about wormers. Do you know what their half-life would be in the soil? Can you point me (and others) to resources for learning more?

Loretta, right now the C3 C-4 question is the realm of bio chemists and botanists.

There is not one instance of a plant developing that process however many million years ago and every other plant that has that uses the process descending from it.

C4 plants are scattered throughout the plant kingdom. Some of the crops that are C4 are corn maize sorghum rice. There are a couple trees in Hawaii that are C4 plants.

I looked for a while for information that I could assimilate into anything useful but it was beyond me.

Wikipedia has an article but there isn’t a chart like you were asking for. It’s an interesting topic worth discussing but I think  we are a little too early.

Constancia Wiweru wrote:

Thekla McDaniels wrote:
One important thing I want to mention is how important it is to not take just any free manure!

Commercial and conventional operations for the most part, believe in pharmaceutical type wormers.  It’s an insidious form of toxic gick.  The compounds that try to kill parasites (“worms”) are still active after a pass through a host animal, they kill organisms in the soil.

Thank you so much for this! I got some manure from a local and didn't think to ask about wormers. Do you know what their half-life would be in the soil? Can you point me (and others) to resources for learning more?

I wish!

My strategy has been to avoid all sources of manure that  I don’t know for a fact the philosophy of the animal keeper.

One of the most common wormers is ivermectin and many worming compounds contain that.  it  would be pretty easy to be more internet savvy than I am, but couldn’t you do a web search for animal wormers, then search for each compound you found and discover the half-life on it?

Unfortunately as the parasites develop resistance to wormers, the animal keepers who believe in worming use more wormers, more frequently. That just means there’s even more of the pharmaceutical compounds we wish to avoid in the manure.

Another thing animal farmers do is a feed their stock antibiotics. It makes them gain weight faster.  The antibiotics also can come through in tact and also can kill the bacteria in the soil.

There’s a thing called the soil food web. I think Elaine Ingham was the first person to start talking about that.

She gave a presentation at Permaculture Voices in 2014 in Temecula California. The organizer was Diego Footer, there may be recordings of her presentation available. She also teaches and certifies soil food web practitioners. Elaine Ingham was first an entomologist I think, though I might’ve made that up.

It’s not that uncommon an idea at this point. I think if you wanted to find more about it pursue topics like regenerative agriculture, soil health, soil food web, no till, cover crops.

Mark Sheppard has been on the lecture circuit for quite some time after the astonishing work he did at new forest farm in Wisconsin. I don’t know where you’re located but there is an annual Soil health conference in Delta Colorado.

If you can’t travel to a conference, seek out videos of lectures on line.  Look for people like Gabe Brown, Kristy Nichols, Mark Shepherd, Elaine Ingram.

Acres magazine has an annual conference, couldn’t you go to their website and see who their speakers and presenters were in the past, and who will be speaking this year.

Not everyone is reliable of course, but if you don’t know what to make of what someone is saying, ask around.😊

Constancia Wiweru wrote:

Thekla McDaniels wrote:
One important thing I want to mention is how important it is to not take just any free manure!

Commercial and conventional operations for the most part, believe in pharmaceutical type wormers.  It’s an insidious form of toxic gick.  The compounds that try to kill parasites (“worms”) are still active after a pass through a host animal, they kill organisms in the soil.

Thank you so much for this! I got some manure from a local and didn't think to ask about wormers. Do you know what their half-life would be in the soil? Can you point me (and others) to resources for learning more?

The YouTube channel Roots and Refuge Farm got some soil contaminated with chemicals, possibly wormers. They suggest before spreading soil or manure to do a test and see if it will grow bean plants in a pot.  Beans were suggested as being fast and normally very easy to grow, but would not in the stuff they got.

Ooooh, good idea.  So glad someone had the idea.  Maybe one could try growing insects too, like some kind of fly larva, or bacteria, to see if soil microbes would grow.

Testing with a legume like beans would give a hint on nitrogen fixing bacteria…. Possible an indicator species?

Sorry are we off topic?  I hope not, since getting soil from clay requires the microbes.

Haven't read through the whole thread, but did do a quick search for the word "sulfur" and only found one comment regarding high pH soil and adding it...so I think it's safe to assume no one hit on this secret tactic. I've used it myself and it's been working miracles for me on my tight clay soil (and I've found 15 year old saplings, fir needles and goldenrod buried in 6 inches of clay that haven't rotted one bit!)

Soil science is key to understanding the behavior of things like clay and it's ability to be one of the best bases for your soil, or one of the worst.

Many people immediately think of gypsum for clay, and this is because the sulfur in the clay will help "deflocculate" or break up the clay. The presence of calcium is also great, helping to balance out the pH of your amendment. It's smart thinking, but there's more to the story.

The reason that sulfur helps "break up" clay soils is there's a tendency for clay, composed of tiny flat plates, to hold on to all sorts of positively charged ions. These are generally known as cations, and include most of the things we know our soils need for healthy plants (calcium, potassium, magnesium, and so on).

Clay is awesome in this respect, but can create a major problem. When two plates of clay attach themselves tightly to one magnesium ion, that magnesium ion basically acts like glue between them. Magnesium is a large ion compared to many other cations we want in our soils like calcium and potassium, and they often become trapped between those glued together plates. Suddenly, we have a tight packed clay with no available nutrients. This doesn't allow water to penetrate properly, resists the growth of plant roots and fungal networks, and eventually excludes most soil life, leaving you with a dead mineral soil containing no organic matter.

Sulfur is the magic bullet, chemically binding to the magnesium, "un-gluing" the clay plates and releasing all the other cations. A soil that tests acid before application of sulfur will often begin testing more balanced a year or so after a good application of elemental sulfur. It seems counter-intuitive because sulfur makes soil "acid", but the release of those other cations often makes up for that all on its own! This is why applying gypsum is often the go-to for people trying to improve clay soil - the gypsum contains some calcium and a whole bunch of sulfur.

It's expensive, though...more expensive than a big sack of elemental sulfur with subsequent application of hi-cal lime later if you find you need it.

Oh, and all this soil science brings up another important point. It's pretty much never a good idea to add magnesium if you have tight clay soil - that will likely make things worse. This includes epsom salt (magnesium + sulfur).

So my recommendation is to start with first making the clay behave - add elemental sulfur this spring when the ground warms up enough for dandelions to bloom (probably mid to late may there). It'll likely come in a 40 or 50 pound bag of little yellow "buttons". These break down into sulfuric acid in the presence of water at the right temperature (above I think 50* - don't quote me on that), leach down into the soil and subsoil, and gobble up magnesium ions that are gluing your clay up tight.

Give that about a month to work, then add a heavy dose of kelp meal, feathers and bone char, or whatever sort of organic type amendments you like to the sections you want to garden in. Sheet mulch directly over this (cardboard or newspaper covered with a good layer of mulch hay or clean straw), then give that another month and a half or two months to sit. Note that I have not recommended digging AT ALL yet. Let chemistry do that part for you at this point

This should bring you up to around late July to mid August somewhere, which is perfect timing to pop in some of your favorite brassica transplants for late-fall harvest! This is about when I'd be putting in the final broccolis, kales and seeded in turnips here in Central Maine.

Spring of 2024, you should be set to throw in some potatoes and use that as your excuse to "till" a little  Be sure from this point forward to keep that soil covered at all times with everything you can think of - mulches, cover crops, chunks of wood, rock piles to give the garter snakes a place to hole up, and the best polycultures you can come up with. The improvement of your soil should be much faster by using sulfur early. Also, by not digging / tilling anything until after the chemical magic has taken place, you'll be less likely to turn the "garden" into something like a cement pad where what should be turning into beautiful organic matter for your soil instead gets preserved for future archaeologists

Oh! One more thing: Make sure any straw, hay or manure you use is not contaminated with the aminopyralid herbicides being used all over the country right now. A farmer would know it as Graze-On. Presence of that in anything you put down will ensure you wont be growing a garden there for the next 5 to 7 years as it'll kill everything but grass. Evil stuff

Thanks for mentioning herbicides that may be present in the free organic mulch and composting materials.  That’s important, and so discouraging to have gathered materials and built a pile that just won’t go!

Tristan Vitali wrote:Haven't read through the whole thread, but did do a quick search for the word "sulfur" and only found one comment regarding high pH soil and adding it...so I think it's safe to assume no one hit on this secret tactic. I've used it myself and it's been working miracles for me on my tight clay soil (and I've found 15 year old saplings, fir needles and goldenrod buried in 6 inches of clay that haven't rotted one bit!)

.......

The reason that sulfur helps "break up" clay soils is there's a tendency for clay, composed of tiny flat plates, to hold on to all sorts of positively charged ions. These are generally known as cations, and include most of the things we know our soils need for healthy plants (calcium, potassium, magnesium, and so on).

Clay is awesome in this respect, but can create a major problem. When two plates of clay attach themselves tightly to one magnesium ion, that magnesium ion basically acts like glue between them. Magnesium is a large ion compared to many other cations we want in our soils like calcium and potassium, and they often become trapped between those glued together plates. Suddenly, we have a tight packed clay with no available nutrients. This doesn't allow water to penetrate properly, resists the growth of plant roots and fungal networks, and eventually excludes most soil life, leaving you with a dead mineral soil containing no organic matter.

Sulfur is the magic bullet, chemically binding to the magnesium, "un-gluing" the clay plates and releasing all the other cations. A soil that tests acid before application of sulfur will often begin testing more balanced a year or so after a good application of elemental sulfur. It seems counter-intuitive because sulfur makes soil "acid", but the release of those other cations often makes up for that all on its own! This is why applying gypsum is often the go-to for people trying to improve clay soil - the gypsum contains some calcium and a whole bunch of sulfur.

What fantastic info in your post!!!   I do add gypsum - lots of it.   Our local nurseryman said all of the soil around here is extremely deficient in sulfur and calcium, and recommended it.   But yes, it is extremely expensive.  

I knew clay was flat plates, but I had no idea about them sticking to magnesium and your description of what that does was perfect.   I loved your initial description of finding saplings, etc., buried 6 inches deep and not decomposing - that's EXACTLY what I see here.

And I love how you advise on when to do things based on the other stuff that's going on 'when the dandelions bloom'...now THAT I can remember.   I didn't know much about 'elemental' sulfur, so I did some googling.   The Minnesota Crop News said that elemental sulfur has to be oxidized before it can do the plants any good - I guess that's why you said to sprinkle it on the surface???  They also said that oxidation takes place very slowly and requires heat.   So, I'm guessing that applying it in late spring allows the summer heat to work it's magic.

Not a quick cure, by any means, but I'm very, very anxious to try this  Thanks so much for a delightful post.

 

You can do it!  
It can be fantastic, easy, fast and cheap!


Clay is my favorite kind of soil because you can turn it into any other kind of soil and still have clay where you want it!


I treat the clay like it is a soil concentrate.  It is my raw material, my base.

The quickest "no work" way I know is to cover the soil with anything.  

Leave it covered for a few seasons.   Especially if you can have it covered through winter into spring.   When you uncover the land it will be soft and dark and lovely.  
The cover creates a safe place for the creatures of the earth to come up and do their work and preserves the soil moisture.



The cuter way is to get a box of ducklings (in the mail from a hatchery) or craigslist yourself some adults.   Could be any kind of ducks or geese.  Muscovy ducks are my favorite.    I live in the cold north.   Muscovys winter well with a bit of grain and shelter.  They are quiet, require very little feed and are prolific.    

I use ducks and geese to do most of the work.   (if you can't have loud quacking pick the muscovy)

With a pitch fork or shovel, I make a line on contour.  Just an inch or so deep is all you need.  Fill your mini ditch with water and turn the quackers loose.  

Done!  Now you can go back to your hammock or comfy armchair.
This method will give you dark sandy loam that holds water and is full of nutrient.  free potting soil

Give them a few days or a week and they will make the trench deeper, wider and muddy.   All you have to do is harvest this mud and put it where you want your garden.   As you fork out the mud you can expand your trench.   You can throw the mud on the place where you want the next trench then, when you start to dig there it will be easy.

The ducks and water soften the land.  After a while the bottom of the trench will be sandy.   You can gather this sand.   They make quite a lot of it.   Now you can mix up your soil exactly how you want it.  Sand, silt and clay!

I like to run garden beds on the side of the trenches.  Then the gardens can be self watering and the plants can choose how much nutrient they need.  



If your land is too hard to dig, start with a low spot.  Just dump a bucket of water and let the ducks get to it.  Or throw down some mulch and water that for a week or so and you should be able to dig.



The ducks do need clean, clear water to drink and wash their face and eyes.   They get this dirty right away.   I dump the dirty water in the trench and give them another clean bucket.  


If you want them to hurry you can throw whole grains in the trench.  
Whole grains because if they do not eat it all it will sprout rather than rot.

In the warm months the system can be self feeding for ducklings because so many insects come for the water and mud.   I do need to add some feed for the adults.  Could be whole grains and garden extras.



Good fast and cheap


I know this post needs a ton of pictures!   can't seem to get them right now though.  I will come back in a bit and add pictures, maybe a video!


Have fun out there!

Samantha Lewis wrote:

I know this post needs a ton of pictures!   can't seem to get them right now though.  I will come back in a bit and add pictures, maybe a video!


Have fun out there!

+1 for pictures and video!  Ducks have been our main fertility generators on heavy clay for approaching a decade now. My favorite is using their deep bedding from winter as a bulletproof (once the surface dries in the sun) sheet mulch for garden beds - high fertility draining through with every rain, adds tons of organic matter as the soil life eats the mulch from underneath, and nearly impenetrable to even the most obnoxious weeds.

Tristan Vitali wrote:
+1 for pictures and video!  Ducks have been our main fertility generators on heavy clay for approaching a decade now. My favorite is using their deep bedding from winter as a bulletproof (once the surface dries in the sun) sheet mulch for garden beds - high fertility draining through with every rain, adds tons of organic matter as the soil life eats the mulch from underneath, and nearly impenetrable to even the most obnoxious weeds.

That is so awesome!    I love getting to fork out the barn into the garden.  It feels like such a good circle!

Yay for winter and spring!

Loretta Liefveld wrote:
And I love how you advise on when to do things based on the other stuff that's going on 'when the dandelions bloom'...now THAT I can remember.   I didn't know much about 'elemental' sulfur, so I did some googling.   The Minnesota Crop News said that elemental sulfur has to be oxidized before it can do the plants any good - I guess that's why you said to sprinkle it on the surface???  They also said that oxidation takes place very slowly and requires heat.   So, I'm guessing that applying it in late spring allows the summer heat to work it's magic.

Not a quick cure, by any means, but I'm very, very anxious to try this  Thanks so much for a delightful post.

 

Thanks for all the kind words  Yes - surface application only with the sulfur "buttons", and not too thickly. I can't give any specific numbers (and no one could without a good soil test and some serious chemistry knowledge), but what I've done is a good scattering...roughly equivalent to maybe 30lbs to an acre. The buttons will break down in the rain, in presence of oxygen, above 55*F (there's actually bacteria that do the work that are inactive below that temperature). The soil surface warms faster and has plenty of oxygen, so definitely best to not mix it in.

Turns out, too, that most of our soils, especially on the eastern half of the country, are sulfur deficient. All that acid rain of the 70s and 80s was a boon to our veggies. And from what I've read, presence of pine trees is an indicator of low sulfur (another thing that would fly in the face of conventional wisdom since sulfur is acidic and will lower pH). The pines, though, would be like any other "weed" trying to correct a soil imbalance as they exude actual sulfuric acid from their roots (!!)

Tristan Vitali wrote:Haven't read through the whole thread, but did do a quick search for the word "sulfur" and only found one comment regarding high pH soil and adding it...so I think it's safe to assume no one hit on this secret tactic. I've used it myself and it's been working miracles for me on my tight clay soil (and I've found 15 year old saplings, fir needles and goldenrod buried in 6 inches of clay that haven't rotted one bit!)

Soil science is key to understanding the behavior of things like clay and it's ability to be one of the best bases for your soil, or one of the worst.

Many people immediately think of gypsum for clay, and this is because the sulfur in the clay will help "deflocculate" or break up the clay. The presence of calcium is also great, helping to balance out the pH of your amendment. It's smart thinking, but there's more to the story.

This is interesting.  I have a problem with thick yellow clay that sees Capillary Rise.   I recently replaced my chainlink fence and some of the posts had a lot of water in them.  I mounted the posts in concrete over 20 years ago.  I am replacing the chainlink with a privacy fence but also using rectangular galvanized tubing.  I am worried that the same clay will cause the new posts to fill with water and rust out the posts from the inside.  I was going to try Gypsum but already have high calcium and a pH of around 6.5.  Now I will try sulfur inside the posts that contain water after a drought.
My well has high calcium and magnesium (Very large Bicarb readings) and a pH of 7.  Can I add sulfur to this to control scale?

Samantha, you make this sound like so much fun!

I want ducklings, whether or not I have solid clay mass to break up!

Dennis Bangham wrote:This is interesting.  I have a problem with thick yellow clay that sees Capillary Rise.   I recently replaced my chainlink fence and some of the posts had a lot of water in them.  I mounted the posts in concrete over 20 years ago.  I am replacing the chainlink with a privacy fence but also using rectangular galvanized tubing.  I am worried that the same clay will cause the new posts to fill with water and rust out the posts from the inside.  I was going to try Gypsum but already have high calcium and a pH of around 6.5.  Now I will try sulfur inside the posts that contain water after a drought.
My well has high calcium and magnesium (Very large Bicarb readings) and a pH of 7.  Can I add sulfur to this to control scale?

Ha - way outside my area of (non)expertise! I probably wouldn't want to put sulfur in the posts directly - I can imagine weird chemical reactions taking place. Don't know if that would happen or not, but it would be worth the research time. I'm thinking there are better solutions to that specific issue, though.

Likewise in the well...probably worth talking to someone with some serious well chemistry background. I bet there's some permies hanging out in another thread that know the answers to your questions

Dennis Bangham wrote:

Tristan Vitali wrote:Haven't read through the whole thread, but did do a quick search for the word "sulfur" and only found one comment regarding high pH soil and adding it...so I think it's safe to assume no one hit on this secret tactic. I've used it myself and it's been working miracles for me on my tight clay soil (and I've found 15 year old saplings, fir needles and goldenrod buried in 6 inches of clay that haven't rotted one bit!)

Soil science is key to understanding the behavior of things like clay and it's ability to be one of the best bases for your soil, or one of the worst.

Many people immediately think of gypsum for clay, and this is because the sulfur in the clay will help "deflocculate" or break up the clay. The presence of calcium is also great, helping to balance out the pH of your amendment. It's smart thinking, but there's more to the story.

This is interesting.  I have a problem with thick yellow clay that sees Capillary Rise.   I recently replaced my chainlink fence and some of the posts had a lot of water in them.  I mounted the posts in concrete over 20 years ago.  I am replacing the chainlink with a privacy fence but also using rectangular galvanized tubing.  I am worried that the same clay will cause the new posts to fill with water and rust out the posts from the inside.  I was going to try Gypsum but already have high calcium anda a pH of around 6.5.  Now I will try sulfur inside the posts that contain water after a drought.
My well has high calcium and magnesium (Very large Bicarb readings) and a pH of 7.  Can I add sulfur to this to control scale?

Dennis, I didn’t think galvanized metal would rust.  Did the chain link posts full of capillaritywater rust?  Aren’t they galvanized?  

I don’t exactly understand the bad part of having water inside your fence posts.

Can you please explain it to me?