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I think travelling the vegan path is a noble thing: sacrificing bacon, cheese, ice cream, honey, steak and turkey dinners for the sake of others. Often "others" would include animals.

The problem that I have issue with is militant veganism. This is where a person thinks that everybody needs to be a vegan.

It has been my experience, after visiting with thousands of people, that some people thrive on a vegan diet, and some people get really sick on a vegan diet. So I don't think veganism is a slam dunk thing.

Further, the studies that support veganism tend to universally compare a good healthy vegan diet (cooked well, using organic foods) to a western diet (non-organic, lots of sugars and processed foods). There have been so many skewed studies, that I now personally choose to ignore any vegan studies until there is a study where the omnivores are represented with something that the weston a. price foundation would support and the vegans are limited to oreos and diet coke.

Vegan's point to CAFO's - and I agree with their argument against CAFOs. I eat pastured beef.

I think Pollan's book "The Omnivore's Dilemma" makes the strongest point: you actually kill fewer animals as an omnivore. Farming practices for, say, carrots kill millions of animals and ground nesting birds.


I think I have enough to say on this topic to fill a couple of books, but here is today's point. Here is a video I took a while back which I called "respectful chicken harvest, part 1":



Here are some of the comments that came in between last night when I went to bed, and this morning when I woke up:

fuck you


GOD PLEASE DESTROY PAUL WHEATON AND HIS FAMILY!!!


A chicken is different than a carrot you retarded cunt. WTF This was disturbing to watch and I hope this lady gets removed from this planet very soon. You think I would feel the same way if she cut a carrot in two?


I wish I could peacefully cut off the heads of you and your family and feed the meat to starving lions.


I wish death upon you. I hope that lady gets raped and slaughtered in the most brutal way possible. God please kill this family. PLEASE!!!


And I deleted them.

I don't know why a vegan would want to look at a video about harvesting a chicken.

I usually get one or two a day that I need to delete. So last night had a few more than usual.

I'm not sure if hostile people are drawn to veganism, or if veganism causes hostility in some people. There is that thing about how certain fats are essential to good health in the nervous system - those fats being ample in meats, and only found in coconut oil in the vegan world. My understanding is that a lack of this fat leads to irritability. Maybe we are witnessing a symptom.

tl;dr: veganism good, militant veganism bad.

 
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Militants are bad whether vegan, gay, atheist, Muslim, Christian, pro life, pro choice, etc.

They divide and shut down conversation, let alone debate.
 
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paul wheaton wrote:I'm not sure if hostile people are drawn to veganism, or if veganism causes hostility in some people. There is that thing about how certain fats are essential to good health in the nervous system - those fats being ample in meats, and only found in coconut oil in the vegan world. My understanding is that a lack of this fat leads to irritability. Maybe we are witnessing a symptom.


My experience has been that the most militant vegetarians/vegans have been those who have recently made the switch, so I'm not sure how well that fits with the animal fat in the nervous system hypothesis. I guess after a year or two having the same arguments people realize their Sisyphean nature and instead of going into diatribe about the horrors of meat when asked how they want their burger cooked they just politely decline.
 
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Such foul ( or should I use a pun and write "fowl") hatred toward another human being for not agreeing with one's point of view...WTF?

To quote Cassie's mom, "there is enough sunshine to go around, why can't you just do what makes you happy?"
 
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I've got what feels like a unique perspective on vegans, coming in as I do from the angle that I eat pretty much a vegan diet (well, plus a tiny bit of honey) only without any of the super-processed vegan junk food like fake cheeses and soy-things-that-look-like-meat. The catch is, I'm not vegan; I landed on a plant-based, no-added-oils, avoid-processed-foods diet for health reasons, and after it completely cured my diabetes, I was pretty much stuck with it. (Diabetes is bad, kids; you don't want it and I don't want it back.)

But I grew up hunting and fishing, I've killed plenty of animals, and I don't have a single ethical problem with keeping and raising animals for meat. I respect the ethical arguments, but I just don't agree with them as applied to humane-raised animals and respectfully-harvested game.

I will even go a step beyond respecting the ethical arguments of vegans. I will acknowledge that ethical veganism in its most extreme forms is a philosophical system within which (because of the moral status ascribed thereby to animals) a certain zealotry and confrontational approach to non-vegans is self-consistent. If you think meat-eating is an ongoing moral holocaust, debate tactics that are startlingly robust become perhaps justifiable.

None of that, though, justifies the vile quasi-threats and desires for rape and death and divine retribution expressed in the sample comments Paul shared with us. That's not the righteous fury of an ethically-driven meat-abolitionist, that's just empty internet raging, grounded in no identifiable system of ethics whatsoever.
 
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I think I'm going to agree with Paul here. I think what we are seeing is largely a symptom. I've know a lot of vegans, most of them in their 20s and 30s, and they almost all got there as a reactionary - THAT EQAULS EVERYTHING I AM AGAINST as they started peering down the corporate industrial rat hole. And I agree. CAFOS pretty much represent everything I hate about all of humanity. But then they find there answer and its so simple; VEGANISM! No more need to dread and fear and study. Heres the answere! Now they aren't harming animals in ANY way. They have more respect for life than that. Smugness settles in. And do you know how many crops are use to feed live stock? YOU NOT BEING VEGAN IS KILLING PEOPLE!!! YOU KILL ANIMALS AND YOU KILL PEOPLE!!!

Okay, sorry. Still with me? Like I said, I've known some of these folks.

Thing is most of them are good people. The see the same problems in the world we do. They are committed to making a difference in the world. They just have their mind set, have obviously thought about it more than you, and if you have a different opinion you're wrong. Soy all the way dude! :/ Yes, it can be irksome

However, some of those comments were inexcusable and in my opinion warrant prosecution more than deletion.
 
R Scott
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Some vegans are chemically induced crazy. Vitamin B12 deficiency causes behavior issues. And it is really hard to get B12 from vegan sources.
 
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R Scott wrote:Some vegans are chemically induced crazy. Vitamin B12 deficiency causes behavior issues. And it is really hard to get B12 from vegan sources.
Not only B-12, but deficient in other things that are very important to proper brain function, like DHA and EPA. The body can produce some in an emergency, but many if not most people will eventually run short, and experience everything from mild to severe neurological problems. In some cases even death.

To be fair though, there do seem to be a very rare few who manage life long Veganism without supplements.
 
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What if the meatless crazies is some sort of vestigial survival function? Is it possible that the human body needs or wants something that the average vegan diet fails to substitute, and when it goes missing, some aggressive behavior develops in an attempt to recapture that? Is that not a common trait among many food deprived animals...specifically omnivores and carnivores?
I am sure it is not that simple, many people get militant about their lifestyle change. I became a militant non-smoker after quitting tobacco. I have a difficult time tolerating even the smell of a smoker's belongings. It might be something I unconsciously do to keep from picking the habit back up. It may be some sort of way of self-reassurance that your lifestyle change was the right one. Some people speak bitterly about their ex relationships as a way of making themselves feel better over the separation.
I do agree that many vegans seem to get over this as time goes on. Perhaps their diet is just healthier, or veganism has gotten so easy that it is less of an "I conquered omnivoria" and just becomes a normal "this is just how I eat...no biggie" thing. My sister has been 90% vegan for almost a decade now. She makes vegan choices when she shops, cooks or orders meals, but she doesn't freak out if someone accidentally gets a fleck of cheese on her food. She won't be a jerk and turn down a sliver of my kids birthday cake because it doesn't fit her ideal food choices. Veganism seems healthier when it's just a description of the food you eat and not how you behave.
 
Dan Boone
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R Scott wrote:Some vegans are chemically induced crazy. Vitamin B12 deficiency causes behavior issues. And it is really hard to get B12 from vegan sources.


Scott Strough wrote:Not only B-12, but deficient in other things that are very important to proper brain function, like DHA and EPA. The body can produce some in an emergency, but many if not most people will eventually run short, and experience everything from mild to severe neurological problems. In some cases even death.


I just want to point out that most of the simple declarative statements in these quotes are expressions of opinion, not fact. And even the ones with a factual grounding are surrounded by complex, nuanced arguments. Things are rarely as simple as they appear. Opinions are fine, I love mine, but the local culture here at permies.com of not presenting controversial opinions as fact is one of the things I most like about this site, and I'd like to encourage that practice on this topic too.

"Some Vegans are chemically induced crazy." Not a falsifiable claim, but not a provable one, either, because we simply don't know enough about the human brain to identify concrete reasons for most of the crazy we encounter. "Some vegans are crazy" is perhaps an observable fact or at least a perfectly reasonable statement of one person's experienced reality, but the reasons anybody in our world is crazy? Very hard to pin down.

"Vitamin B12 deficiency causes behavior issues." Well, it can (does not always) cause brain damage, so I suppose behavior issues sometimes follow from that. By no means in every case, though, if I'm reading the science right. Nor is medically-confirmed B12 deficiency actually encountered very often.

"And it is really hard to get B12 from vegan sources." Huge bundle of nuanced arguments around this assertion. Discussions of seaweed products that may or may not include trace sea animal parts, of nutritional yeast (various strains, fortified or not), of incidental "animal sources" in soil entrained with organic vegetables, and deeply complex discussions involving bioavailability. Not to mention philosophical arguments about vegan purity with respect to some of these sources. Not to mention numerous anecdotes of sustained vegan experience not resulting in B12 shortage.

"...deficient in other things that are very important to brain function, like DHA and EPA. The body can produce some in an emergency, but many if not most people will eventually run short..." Unlike with the B12 issue, there seems to be less science in support of these fairly-widely-held opinions. And cases of actual demonstrated shortages of these brain chemicals in vegans? Words like "few" and "rare" and "none" come closest to describing the situation.

Ultimately what I'm objecting to is taking the opinion that the way vegans eat makes them crazy and stating it as if it were established fact. That just ignores too much of the really complex, nuanced conversations about human nutrition that are happening in this space.
 
paul wheaton
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Dan Boone wrote: I eat pretty much a vegan diet (well, plus a tiny bit of honey)


My understanding is that that is called a "bee-gan".


 
paul wheaton
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I like the idea that as we discuss this topic, if we are going to discuss relationships between brain function and diet, that we embrace that there are a LOT of vegans that seem in great health and are very lovely people. And they are not focusing at all on B12 or fat types.

In other words, I like the idea that we respect the vegans that are non-militant while exploring concerns over the militant factor.
 
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What a wonderfully inspiring video. Thank you for posting it. My personal feelings with the meat I eat, is that a calm end is equally important as a good life - that was a very beautiful and respectful way to process a chicken.

It also reminds me of the reaction to the video posted a few months back where a First Nations woman was plucking a goose on the train... What's next, someone denuding an orange in public?

Also interesting thread so far. I think Dan makes an excellent point that we can't necessary blame nutritional deficiency for inappropriate behaviour. Although, it would be nice if we could.


This is my first time in the cider press, so hopefully I do this right.

Veganism and especially militant veganism has been on my mind a lot these last few years. I have (or I should say, had) a lot of friends who are/were vegan and very vocal about it. I've even seriously considered going vegan myself, on more than one occasion. The thing that stops me is that a vegan lifestyle conflicts with my values. I value a lifestyle that causes as little animal suffering as possible and leaves as little ecological damage as I can. In fact, I hope by the end of my life, that I've done more to preserve and sustain the environment than damage, but I'll be lucky if I can break even.

The three melodidies to the siren song of veganism - kindness to animals, kindness to environment and kindness to personal health - are very alluring. Being incurably academic, I decided to read, research and think about what a vegan life involves. Because I don't do things by halves, I focused on the full vegan life style - food, clothing, personal products, household products, medical procedures, soil amendments, everything. As well as reading, researching and thinking, I talked with my vegan friends at great length to discover what they do, how they view veganism, and why they choose what they choose.

I learned so much.

I learned that my vegan friends were not very friendly to non-vegan lifestyle. Some of which just didn't want to talk about non-vegan activities like wool sweaters, others would... what's the polite way to express this? They would talk at me about how my wearing wool (as example) was wrong, and reflected badly on my moral character, and so on and so forth. This would go on for a very long time about the wrongness of my actions. I noticed that with these people, it was difficult to discover why it was so morally wrong, all questions were met with 'animal cruelty' but no explanation as to how wearing wool sweater, I handspun and handknit from my own overly-spoiled (I rescued from the abattoir) sheep was a cruelness. Any attempt to ask about the cruelty of not shearing my sheep, the environmental impact of shearing and wasting the fleece, or the number of animals harmed in processing the petroleum based fibre used to machine knit and sweatshop assemble my friends sweater ... well, these topics promptly ended the friendship. For a long time I was confused, but then I realized that my openness to learn about the details of their lifestyle wasn't reciprocated.

I learned that a vegan diet, in our part of the world, requires a large amount of imported produce and foods from far off lands, quite often foods that require large amounts of processing. Although one can grow legumes and process their own tofu, miso, and other meat substitutes locally, I haven't yet met a vegan who does so. Soy may not grow well here, and most legumes require irrigation or other inputs, but favas and chickpeas can be adapted to our environment given enough manure.

ah, manure... but that's an animal product. So I asked one of my vocal vegan friends about this - one of the few that were still talking to me at this time. This woman is very educated and although I would categorize her as militant vegan, she is open to discussing the consequences of vegan lifestyle, or so I thought. Manure, like wool, being a byproduct of forcefully enslaving animals, is not allowed. She was confident that we can grow all the worlds food just fine using other available soil amendments. So, I created an experiment. Feeding the world being important, the soil amendments couldn't be useable food, organic being important to me, petroleum based products also out. So I used composted kitchen scraps to improve the soil of one section of the garden bed, the other half used llama berries. I planted flax, a vegan friendly textile. The flax with manure grew a foot and a half taller than the one with only compost. My friend doesn't speak to me anymore.

There are other aspects of learning about the vegan lifestyle that were interesting, but long to explain. Most of them ended when I started rising my own food animals. I'm far too soft hearted and couldn't stand the idea of supporting farms that aren't kind to their animals.

I only have one vegan left who is polite to me, and most of the more militant ones aren't even vegan anymore.


Given my experience, here are my thoughts about militant veganism (which could possibly apply to militant otherisms as well)
-they like to talk about themselves and how great their ideals and lifestyle choice makes them
-they like to tell me how horrible I am for not making the same choices
-many of them don't think things through to their logical conclusion. Cotton isn't an animal product, does not follow that cotton harms no animals. Cotton using one of the hugest pesticide based growing conditions... hmmm...
-the more vocal they are, the less they listen

I'm actually really sad that my vegan friends left me. It's a real shame because I think that a lot of good could come from the ideals of kindness to animals, kindness to the environment and kindness to human health. This militant approach to their lifestyle seems to blind them to the consequences of their actions. But I wonder, if we could combine their values and actualize them in the world to find a moderate place between militant veganism and modern day industrial food system... this would be revolutionary.


I have this recurring dream - one that I would love to make reality - I'm part of a life experiment project run by some university or think tank. Two core groups of people living off the land, in an organic, sustainable way. One group lives an omnivore life, the other a pure vegan life. By year two of the experiment, we are allowed no external inputs to our diet or clothing, or anything. For example, the vegans must grow their own oil crop for their diesel tractors, the omnivorous grow their own hay for the draft horse. Both lifestyles take advantage of modern day knowledge and some tools, but do so in a way that nurtures the land and the people. Because it's a university experiment, we send off things like soil samples, crop samples for testing on health and nutrition. We learn all about the advantages and disadvantages of both, and how either lifestyle choice can be made sustainable in our local environment. Vegans and omnivores live side by side, and get along great. The biggest conflict is about whether worm composting can be considered vegan or not - we decided that it can be vegan if the worms are 'wild' but not in worm bins. It was a dream dream, not a day dream, it didn't have to make perfect sense. What a wonderful idea for an experiment.


Some books I've read lately that take an ecological and health stance that address the issues of vegan lifestyle:
Carol Deppe, The Resilient Gardener
Berlin Reed, The Ethical Butcher (an author who was a former militant vegan - and still holds fast to the ideals of veganism)




 
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Dan Boone wrote:
"Vitamin B12 deficiency causes behavior issues." Well, it can (does not always) cause brain damage, so I suppose behavior issues sometimes follow from that. By no means in every case, though, if I'm reading the science right. Nor is medically-confirmed B12 deficiency actually encountered very often.


Actually medically confirmed B12 deficiency is not uncommon (but for malabsorption, not necessarily veganism), and thus the psychiatric effects of pernicious anemia (B12 deficiency) are well known and easily observed. I've had two close people who had B12 deficiency that were well medically confirmed, though neither was due to veganism.

One was a friend who had her stomach removed due to cancer and has to inject B12 monthly for the rest of her life (vitamin B12 can only be absorbed through the intestines with the help of an enzyme produced in the stomach lining). Another was my partner who developed pernicious anemia due to malabsorption and we had to inject it in him regularly for a few years.The pernicious anemia first manifested in psychiatric symptoms that made my life miserable -- flying off the handle into rages, attachment to irrational ideas in a person normally very logical; also general weakness over months; intolerance to high altitude in someone who shouldn't have a problem; and finally tingly extremities, which are the typical marker symptom and led to diagnosis. It is diagnosed by examining the red blood cells, which develop into oversized "megaloblasts." These all improved within a week of the first injection; and then we eased back to monthly injections for the next few years. I googled and found that though published books said people who had lost the enzyme had done so due to massive stomach infections earlier and would never recover it, one tiny study said eliminating giardia from the patients reversed it. Since my partner had weird poops we decided to treat him for giardia, and then a year later when he was away and fell behind on the B12 injections, we decided to wait and see, and his pernicious anemia symptoms never came back. It has been 7 years now.

I have no idea if vegans ever actually get dietary B12 deficiency in real world conditions, but B12 deficiency due to malabsorption is not that rare, and can cause psychiatric symptoms.
 
Scott Strough
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Dan Boone wrote:

Scott Strough wrote:Not only B-12, but deficient in other things that are very important to proper brain function, like DHA and EPA. The body can produce some in an emergency, but many if not most people will eventually run short, and experience everything from mild to severe neurological problems. In some cases even death.


I just want to point out that most of the simple declarative statements in these quotes are expressions of opinion, not fact. And even the ones with a factual grounding are surrounded by complex, nuanced arguments. Things are rarely as simple as they appear. Opinions are fine, I love mine, but the local culture here at permies.com of not presenting controversial opinions as fact is one of the things I most like about this site, and I'd like to encourage that practice on this topic too.

"...deficient in other things that are very important to brain function, like DHA and EPA. The body can produce some in an emergency, but many if not most people will eventually run short..." Unlike with the B12 issue, there seems to be less science in support of these fairly-widely-held opinions. And cases of actual demonstrated shortages of these brain chemicals in vegans? Words like "few" and "rare" and "none" come closest to describing the situation.

Ultimately what I'm objecting to is taking the opinion that the way vegans eat makes them crazy and stating it as if it were established fact. That just ignores too much of the really complex, nuanced conversations about human nutrition that are happening in this space.
Well I am more than happy to dig up many piles of scientific studies, case trials and similar, to back what I said. A few years ago I wasted a lot of time and effort debating militant vegans. It might take some time, but I am sure I could eventually dig up all those old citations.

Eventually though I decided the best course of action was not to fight with militant vegans at all. Instead I simply agree that the conventional way agribiz produces animal products is inhumane, unethical, and unhealthy for both humans and the environment. So if the only meat and dairy you can get is the crap at the regular grocery stores..better to just boycott it all. That's our common ground and I am just as committed to ending all CAFOs as the most militant of vegans. And so I have no more serious fights with vegans and I can sell my tomatoes to both paleos and vegans and everyone in between equally.

PS There are still a few extremist vegans that won't settle for anything less that the complete extinction of all domestic species of animals, even ones being used in permaculture to restore the land...... I will probably never find common ground with those few. But honestly, that is a very small minority and I have never even met one in real life, only occasionally see them trolling online.
 
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There can be militants in anything, anywhere.

As someone said in another thread, we need more nice. Be nice, treat others nice, and respect them. Hopefully they will respect you as well and be nice.

I am a medical vegan, so I embrace diet only. With other restrictions. It is working. It's not easy.

One store I visit, I have run into more crazies and militants than any where else. I shop the store for what I need, and yes they see what's in my cart and it looks so good to them, they think they found another of their kind (usually been at this 3-12 months) and are so HAPPY TO FIND ANOTHER. Then because I live with an omnivore, I step to the meat to pick up stuff for him and almost get physically attacked. I would tell them to MYOB after the tirade and had one mother/daughter go run to the manager to complain about me bitterly for a long session, by that time I was up at the register before the manager came along. I made a teeshirt that says "The only one that can get on my case about what I eat or my weight is my doctor and you're not him" and put the words on front and back. It has cut tirades. I shop there when necessary, it doesn't make for a happy visit.

I'll say my trip on the diet took four years between transition and tweaking. I'm about two years now totally diet vegan, and with other restrictions no nutritionist or dietician was even able to help me. If you want to know about going veggie I'll tell you, I'll help you. You don't, no problem. Yes it's great you embraced a new lifestyle. Respect others.

I think some of it may be a deficiency they haven't tracked yet, or in case where you're on restricted calories, fed by 'hangry'. I can get very vicious that way and try not to go there ever. I am seriously calorie restricted as well and eat on a time schedule, meals and snacks. I need that snack. I really do. Now, not thirty minutes from now. Still. Get your B12, your B6, your calcium, your potassium, your protein. It can be a very good way of eating. Just leave the war out of it please. It's getting old. Remember the bit about 'be nice'?

Some eat veggie or vegan their entire lives, but usually if someone chooses it later, it is recommended you are over 12, so that various things are developed enough from nutrients more easily gotten from omnivore type diet, especially up to age three to four. That said, again, there are militants in everything from religion to politics to which way the TP roll should be hung. Remember the nice bit.
 
r ranson
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One thing I really like about humans is that we are all so different.  We have different needs, make different choices.  Another thing about humans is that we all need to eat to survive.  What we choose to eat (or don't choose as the situation may be) reflects hugely on who we are and where we see ourselves in this world.

I see eating as a spiritual act.  There is nothing that connects us to the world so closely as consuming a small part of it and making it ourselves.  I think a lot of people identify closely with what they eat - be it religious dietary restrictions, or the choice to eat healthily and ethically.

When we attack another person's diet, it's a lot like attacking the core of the person.  I don't like this.

When we say someone should eat... we are demanding that they change their core values and world view to suit our own beliefs.  I find this unacceptable.

If someone is vegan, vegetarian, omnivore, carnivore, or eats only paperclips, I think they have the right to eat as they choose.  I do not, however, feel they have the right to tell other people off for not eating the same way they do. 


There are ways to talk about the health merits, demerits, and ecological impact of food without attacking another person's diet.  Given how important food is to everyone, it's important to make that distinction.  Sometimes this distinction is not always easy to see - so please, if one of the staff here asks you to tone down your post, please don't ramp it up.  The powers that be will vanish your writing and you won't get to have your say.  Instead, take a moment and remember that some ways of phrasing things make people open to new ideas.  Other ways of phrasing things gets people's back up and they won't listen to you.  If you really want to convince people that your diet is the best, then don't attack others.
 
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Sorry for the hate mail Paul.  You certainly don't deserve it.

These communication styles being discussed here, militant, aggressive, threatening and rude, are none of them exclusive to veganism.  What ever makes some people behave that way?  I think it may be fulfilling some need they have to maybe to feel superior?  or to proselytize?  to have a means to interact with others as an authority?  I just really truly don't know.

To me it is a communication style that is offensive and disrespectful, and definitely NOT NICE.  That communication style is not limited to vegans, nor do all vegans communicate that way.  Not even all vegans who feel strongly about animal rights behave that way.


 
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Thekla McDaniels wrote:Sorry for the hate mail Paul.  You certainly don't deserve it.

These communication styles being discussed here, militant, aggressive, threatening and rude, are none of them exclusive to veganism.  What ever makes some people behave that way?  I think it may be fulfilling some need they have to maybe to feel superior?  or to proselytize?  to have a means to interact with others as an authority?  I just really truly don't know.

To me it is a communication style that is offensive and disrespectful, and definitely NOT NICE.  That communication style is not limited to vegans, nor do all vegans communicate that way.  Not even all vegans who feel strongly about animal rights behave that way.




As I've agreed. No matter what you believe, how you dress,  who you vote for, and what you eat, remember to be nice.  It just takes one with an attitude, to ruin the perception for others of mostly like mind, by others.
 
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@R Ranson: " If you really want to convince people that your diet is the best, then don't attack others."

@Thekla M: "...is a communication style that is offensive and disrespectful, and definitely NOT NICE.  That communication style is not limited to vegans, nor do all vegans communicate that way.  Not even all vegans who feel strongly about animal rights behave that way. "

It's clearly the thinking behind the following very popular FB page, website, and sanctuary, from the "middle coast" of Canada, which obliquely promotes vegan.  More directly it promotes compassion: 

https://www.facebook.com/estherthewonderpig/

For an eye-opener, watch when a new post is made on the FB page and how fast the "Like"s accumulate!  

 
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and here is my chance to show some "fanaticism", I don't visit face book because of their covert practices of influence peddling, deliberately misleading statement that allows their routine invasion of privacy, and they do not allow a person to erase anything on their page.  Years ago I tried to subscribe my B&B, because there was to be a bicycle race and I wanted to list possible housing.  I am sorry I ever did.  I cannot delete it, and if I log on, their software scours my computer for contacts.   Yuck.  To me it is as bad as the most offensive spam.

Plenty of incentive to go there, eg the link John posted, I'm curious, but I just have to leave it be, in order to not support their evil empire.  , or go to the library and use their computers.
 
John Weiland
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@Thekla M: "Plenty of incentive to go there, eg the link John posted, I'm curious, but I just have to leave it be, in order to not support their evil empire."

.... Fair enough!...I'm not an avid FB-er myself for similar and other unrelated reasons.  Fortunately, you can see most of same information regarding that sanctuary at their main non-FB website here:

http://www.estherthewonderpig.com/
 
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thanks John
 
Deb Rebel
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The only way to truly get rid of the FB scourge once you've been there, is a 'virgin install' on your system. I had had to join it once, had an account for 10 hours to send someone some pictures of a property, and had issues until I did backup and installed a new Operating System (OS) on my computer.

I do hate Windows 10 now, it's counter intuitive and a few steps backwards. I installed Linux and am working towards once more working on/through a Linux based world; it is less fraught with attacks by malware and hackers.

FB is a pox and I refuse to have an account. I have plenty of other ways to get to, connect with, and have an online life without it, or Twitter or um, Instagram.

I'm still medically vegan and always will be it looks like, but. I also don't get in people's faces unless they start it or ask me about it. If you have to fight and defend something that hard, it often means you are uncomfortable with yourself. If you are truly comfortable 'in your own skin' most other things tend to be calm and collected. The militant faction in no matter what you turn to (politics, religion, and what to eat or wear) are the ones that are most obvious and also the ones that tend to get the others of 'their kind' painted with the same brush. No thanks. I wish I could opt out at times. Sigh.
 
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I've been thinking about this, while burning piles and weeding this morning.  I wonder if we need to focus more on the "militancy" than the veganism, because that is the thing that makes so many of us less than happy, regardless of the context.

I have a tendency to be militant about empathy.  My opinion:  saying "I'm sorry", in no way addresses the wrong done, nor does "I apologize".  In my mind those are just culturally accepted free passes that leave the burden AND the injury on the recipient of the apology.  Injured at the others convenience, being required to forgive, again, at the convenience of the transgressor.   I get frustrated because where is the restitution?  Where is the acknowledgement of the wrongness of the deed.  Where is the assurance the same behavior will not be repeated?  Where is recognition of the harm done?

You can imagine this brings me to frustration again and again.  I'm not sure this is related to  my point here re militancy, except that because I "know" I'm right, and appear -to others - to be from outer space, I tend to feel more and more intense about one of those glib "I'm sorry, will you forgive me" incidents, possibly creating a situation in which NO  ONE could have empathy for me.

I got to thinking about that book "I'm Right and You're an Idiot" (because all those other idiots just don't have the first understanding of empathy, it's value, and how to express it appropriately).  The book  has a subtitle about the degradation of public discourse and how to remedy it.  I did not read much of the book because the title said it all.  So, I don't know what the author says about repairing the quality and respectfulness of public discourse, but I'm thinking there may be something there for us, as we try to maintain a militancy free forum for discourse here on permies.

Here is the link to the review (Burra wrote a GREAT one, with synopsis and list of sections and chapters) and thread  https://permies.com/t/55987/books/Idiot-James-Hoggan.

Does anyone think there might be something in there to point us towards effectively addressing militancy?
 
It's in the permaculture playing cards. Here's the link: http://richsoil.com/cards
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