"But if it's true that the only person over whom I have control of actions is myself, then it does matter what I do. It may not matter a jot to the world at large, but it matters to me." - John Seymour
Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
now after a few years of us both living and working on our homestead we find WE can manage very well - it is our extended family that is having a hard time understanding/ accepting our way of life.
"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
K Putnam wrote: The unequivocal answer is that expecting gifts and expecting visits is rude. The issue you are dealing with is not one of frugality, it is one of rudeness.
It may be important for you to establish a yearly travel budget that you have available for visits of your choosing, but that amount is determined by you, not your extended family. Same with gifts. If tasteful homemade gifts are unacceptable, it's not about the gifts; it's about a lack of manners.
John Polk wrote:Since they probably already call you Samis (behind your backs), perhaps you can use that as an excuse for not joining their festivities, as in "The weather has been brutal. We need to herd the reindeer to a lower pasture."
Judith Browning wrote:
Our families have always been very supportive with whatever we could manage in the way of visits and gift giving. They thought we were eventually going to 'grow out' of our lifestyle and join their idea of the mainstream (now, after forty years, those still living, are used to us being different)
Zach Muller wrote: My wife an I have tried various things ranging from making donations as gifts, home made gifts, telling our families we can't afford gifts so we don't expect any from them, etc.
I enjoy the emotions caused by gift giving and receiving, and sometimes giving a disappointing gift is just an all around bummer.
"But if it's true that the only person over whom I have control of actions is myself, then it does matter what I do. It may not matter a jot to the world at large, but it matters to me." - John Seymour
Nina Jay wrote:We've even made agreements like "let's give gifts only to the children this year" but then the other family invariably "forgets" this agreement and buys presents for me and my husband too...
Idle dreamer
Has anyone come up with solutions on how to keep friends & family happy (or at least: not hurt them too much) and still live a frugal, ethical life?
"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
R Ranson wrote:As for gifts, I never really know what to give my city friends, so I've settled on food from the farm. A 500g jar of farm fresh, unpasteurized honey can be up to $40 in the shops in town. Jams, chutneys, dry fruit, &c a tiny jar goes for $12. If they don't want them, then they can re-gift them.
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Judith Browning wrote:
I think it sounds like you are feeling guilty that you can't do those things that they expect. Just try to be honest with them and maybe those you are closest to will 'get it' and help the others understand, and if they don't even then, it's still not your responsibility![]()
R Ranson wrote: Could you turn the tables on them? Say, oh sorry, I can't come for the birthday party but I'll be there next month for the big family gathering to celebrate uncle so and so's 50th Birthday, we'll see each other then. In the meantime, when are you going to come and visit the farm?
Abbey Battle wrote:I think you need to stop worrying about trying to make other people happy. Just be happy yourselves and hoe they come around.
"But if it's true that the only person over whom I have control of actions is myself, then it does matter what I do. It may not matter a jot to the world at large, but it matters to me." - John Seymour
We chose this lifestyle, we actually chose poverty and now cannot fulfil our social responsibilities because of this choice
"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
“The most important decision we make is whether we believe we live in a friendly or hostile universe.”― Albert Einstein
Perhaps in some ways we actually are being treated like children. Our family does not respect our choices (or us), we are a joke to them and they are waiting for us to "grow up"? That would answer K Putnam's question "Why are they being rude?"
Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
John Weiland wrote:
My wife's mother and stepfather had no obligations in their lives and all the money in the world to visit, yet they kept imploring us to make the trip several thousands of miles away. We were in the middle of careers as well as putting down permie roots at the time looking toward a future of early retirement. Wife also made a commitment to a lot of rescued animals. In the end it was a stalemate and wife never again saw her mother or stepdad during the last 20 years of their life. I think for each, it is important to define "social responsibility". My wife did not regret her choices.
Tracy Wandling wrote: I would say: tell them the truth, but don't say it like it's a big burden on you. Don't say, "I'm so sorry, we just can't afford it! I feel terrible!" in a sad voice, or in a 'pleading for forgiveness' kind of way. That makes it sound like you're somehow suffering through your life, instead of living a bountiful life that you love. Instead, I'd say, "We have a budget, and we have to stick to it, so let us know which visit is most important to YOU, and we'll put it into the budget." And say it happily, with a smile on your face, and excitement about the life you're living in your voice.
K Putnam wrote:More seriously, it is painful when our family does not see our authentic selves. My only constructive suggestion is to be present in the moment when you do share time with each other in the hopes that they will get to know you a bit better. It doesn't matter that they've known you all your life; they don't know the you that you've been working to become.
K Putnam wrote:And if that fails, martinis. (hiccup)
"But if it's true that the only person over whom I have control of actions is myself, then it does matter what I do. It may not matter a jot to the world at large, but it matters to me." - John Seymour
I've tried to put more effort into these relationships: called people more often and sent more messages asking how they're doing, and trying to give them my full attention whenever I do see them. That might help in the long run.
"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
Come join me at www.peacockorchard.com
elle sagenev wrote: it's not in the budget.
Idle dreamer
Tyler Ludens wrote:
elle sagenev wrote: it's not in the budget.
Excellent response.
“The most important decision we make is whether we believe we live in a friendly or hostile universe.”― Albert Einstein
Joseph Lofthouse wrote:
My family keeps trying to give me a car... Whatever. I don't have the $1000 a year that it costs to have a car sitting in the driveway, even if it's never driven. I don't have the money to put gasoline in it, even at the currently low prices. The driving culture seems like a dead end to me, so I choose a different lifestyle that I believe is more likely to survive the monetary/political crisis that I'm expecting any hour/year now.
I really like saying, "I like being fit and trim."! When I go to the grocery store, I'm usually the skinniest man my age in the store, and the strongest. It's due to biking, gardening, and to living a simple life.
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Now available: The Native Persimmon (centennial edition)
Dan Boone wrote:How do you get your melons and other heavy stuff to the farmer's market you've mentioned selling at? Is it close enough to your various fields to just wheel them down there in your wheelbarrow, or do you have a cargo bike setup like that urban-farmer guy up in Vancouver? Somehow I always imagined you rattling to market in one of those 1978 Chevy farm pickups with oxidized paint and different-colored fenders.
glen summers wrote:it seems to me that choosing a life style that differs quite a lot from those around you can be interpreted as a criticism of the life style you're ditching.
She does not like it at all when I tell her that I didn't taste the dish that she brought to the family dinner, "Because I like being fit and trim, and the dish would cause aches and pains through my whole body, and would make me fat". When she asks why she feels bad all the time, and has so many aches and pains, I say, "It's because of all the ice-cream and sugar that you eat." I could be nice, and say "Hard to say". But I still have hopes and dreams about making a difference in the world, or at least in my own family.
Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
Well I have to say most of them do come to the farm for our kids birthday parties. We invite everybody but don't demand that they come or even ask for reply. We just make lots of food and wait and see who comes.
Asking them to help us in our big tasks - they won't have the time, they are all extremely busy people and their calendars are always full. Jobs, kids hobbies, vacation trips, you know. They can only see us on those certain special occasions. We could see them any time if they came to the farm but they don't have time to do that. Once somebody offered to pay for our trip... that was when it hit us that we cannot be honest about our situation! We just couldn't figure out what to say. We couldn't take the money of course. I'm still not sure what to make of that incidence. Don't ever want to be in that situation again though. I guess it felt too humiliating, like we were children and they were our parents or something.
“The most important decision we make is whether we believe we live in a friendly or hostile universe.”― Albert Einstein
John Weiland wrote:In the just MHO department, copious consumption of ice-cream and sugar are coping/self-soothing mechanisms that hide emotional pain....like most other addictive practices or substances and irrespective of their chemically-addictive natures. Like many other addictions, once the person is really willing to change one of the most expedient targets for improvement is identifying the basis for the emotional pain and handling that equally, if not as a priority, in other aspects of addiction reversal. Clearly this type of approach can lead, in a parallel way to that indicated by the OP, to family discord. Just in case you haven't tried that angle, Joseph, and still wish to make that difference, you can be on the lookout for signs in your family member of finally wanting that help. But stressing again, the recoverer needs to be willing....
Carrie Graham wrote:
If they offer and you refuse, you are basically choosing not only to live a non-traditional impoverished lifestyle, but you are also choosing to exclude them from your lives. It would be different if you were blaming them for not wanting to help you, because they are richer, that would be selfish. But if the gift they offer you is to pay for you and your children to attend family events like everyone else, then I think you disrespect them by refusing.
Melissa Parker wrote:
I know they think we are weirdos... but they think we are nice weirdos... and that's good enough.
'Theoretically this level of creeping Orwellian dynamics should ramp up our awareness, but what happens instead is that each alert becomes less and less effective because we're incredibly stupid.' - Jerry Holkins
Nina Jay wrote:Homemade presents are not so popular with our friends and relatives....
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Carrie Graham wrote:
If they offer and you refuse, you are basically choosing not only to live a non-traditional impoverished lifestyle, but you are also choosing to exclude them from your lives. It would be different if you were blaming them for not wanting to help you, because they are richer, that would be selfish. But if the gift they offer you is to pay for you and your children to attend family events like everyone else, then I think you disrespect them by refusing.
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Carrie Graham wrote:
This is an important point that is being ignored. The fact they they do come to your family events and you can't afford to attend theirs- and thus participate equally with your presence in their lives is what is making you feel guilty, and they may not be misplaced.
Why couldn't you let them pay for you to participate in their lives? If they willingly offered and you refused, what else can they do? You have chosen a lifestyle that is closer to poverty by choice. They have chosen a more traditional or wealthy lifestyle. That they make the effort to come and be a part of your lives says a great deal of how much you mean to them. That you can't put your pride aside and own up to the truth of yourchosen circumstances says something about you. You can't participate in their lives more equally without monetary assistance from them. If they offer and you refuse, you are basically choosing not only to live a non-traditional impoverished lifestyle, but you are also choosing to exclude them from your lives. It would be different if you were blaming them for not wanting to help you, because they are richer, that would be selfish. But if the gift they offer you is to pay for you and your children to attend family events like everyone else, then I think you disrespect them by refusing.
Certainly your children lose some of the benefits of close extended family.
Carrie Graham wrote:
A word about the wealthy nephews. My son and his cousin are young adults. They live within their means, but can buy themselves whatever they want. But I pay attention, so for Christmas both young men got a five gallon bucket with Mt.Dew (bought on sale) on the bottom and a giant Rice crispy treat on the top. At first they were both worried the bucket was completely filled with rice crispy treats, too much of a good thing. LOL Those were much appreciated, even though they could and do buy their own Mt, Dew, it was a week or more worth they didn't have to. Also at one time in this frugal family, 2ply, extra soft TP was considered a "luxury", so now every year each kid no matter how old gets a roll or a bulk pack of their own. Kind of practical, kind of funny, loads family fun. (Did you know they even make Panda TP?)
Lucia Moreno wrote:
We went out of the "gift circuit" years ago, as one of the first measures to downsize. We just called everybody in early December and told them we did not want gifts and we will not buy gifts. We did the same every time we travelled or someone travelled (in my familly when you visit a place you have to bring gifts from that place), in birthdays, etc. It took some years but now there is no problem.
glen summers wrote:Don't know what you all think of this, but it seems to me that choosing a life style that differs quite a lot from those around you can be interpreted as a criticism of the life style you're ditching. Its like not drinking or doing drugs at a party when everyone else is. It might be good to keep in mind that when you leave behind the values other members of the family hold, they might feel a certain degree of rejection.
"But if it's true that the only person over whom I have control of actions is myself, then it does matter what I do. It may not matter a jot to the world at large, but it matters to me." - John Seymour
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