but but but but

The word "but" is interesting.  It pretty much negates the previous statement. 

"You are a really terrific person, but ...." (not)

So I think that if our mission is to never suggest that anybody here on permies.com is anything less than perfect, I would like to ask that when responding to someone else, please don't start your post with "but".  It sorta sends the message that everything that person said is false - which implies that that person says false things.

I think you are wrong, but then again you may be right..........

I'll give at a try! 

No buts!

Strange but true.

Butabing butaboom

Gotta disagree with you boss..
"but" is a Coordinating Conjunction, and in the context that we're discussing, generally suggests a contrast that is unexpected in light of the first clause: "I am a permaculturist, but I keep a dog as a pet."
The "but" doesn't negate the first clause,  it adds additional, modifying information.

You've also got me wondering,
"our mission is to never suggest that anybody here on permies.com is anything less than perfect"
Are we all perfect? Really? Then why do we have any problems at all?
I think the reason why most of us are here at Permies is that we're not perfect, and we'd like to be better.
I know for sure that I'm a loooong way from perfect, and I appreciate people who can point out where I'm wrong, because then I can change my ideas and move forward.
Are critical thinking and disagreement not important parts of the quest for knowledge?

If we accept that everyone here isn't perfect, then we have no need to suggest that they aren't, as it is a given.  That is, there is no need to point out each others faults as human beings.  Pointing out personal faults is generally considered "not nice" in polite company.

In my opinion. 

Men socialize by insulting each other, but they don't really mean it.
Women socialize by complimenting each other, but they don't really mean it.

But is a conditional modifier, not a negator.

Presumably you never read the recent post (now deleted) that ran something like "I don't usually troll, but..." 

You'd be amazed how many times 'but' is used like that on these boards, but (oops) they usually get themselves deleted.

One of my favorite quotes from a woman who teaches public communication skills..

"There isn't any place you use 'but' in a sentence where you can't substitute 'and' for a more positive statement. 'But' is limiting, 'and' is full of possibility." - Julie Anne Jones

Interesting... Werner Erhard [of EST] used to also suggest substituting 'and' for 'but', as in
"I wanted to go the beach, and it is raining."

Personally, I don't have a position on 'but'.

sarahpc wrote:
One of my favorite quotes from a woman who teaches public communication skills..

"There isn't any place you use 'but' in a sentence where you can't substitute 'and' for a more positive statement. 'But' is limiting, 'and' is full of possibility." - Julie Anne Jones

My problem is I have no chance of finding my - and sometimes its sunny ! Big Al

This reminds me of the times I've heard "but" used as a complete twist in intent, like:

"I'm definitely not a racist, but...<some rant bordering on the most racist thing ever heard>"

..just take it as a warning pause that you may want to quit listening...

Yes, that's my "favorite" use of the conjunction.

"I'm not sexist, but. . . ."

Generally, whatever follows the "but," will knock your socks off. It's as if the user thinks it is a magic construction, shielding them from the truth of their condition.

Are you saying my but is too big?! lol

Rob Alexander wrote:You've also got me wondering,
"our mission is to never suggest that anybody here on permies.com is anything less than perfect"
Are we all perfect? Really? Then why do we have any problems at all?

We're all human (the spambots seem to be under control), so no, nobody here's perfect. And I think Paul would be fine with anybody pointing out their own flaws and foibles. As an imperfect human, though, I tend to react badly when others take that liberty, and get a strong urge to respond in kind. This leads to flame wars, and the Internet is full of them. Paul's done a mavellous job of cultivating an atmosphere of civility and good will here that is a rare thing in the digital world. Achieving it has required a few rules and (I imagine) a lot of policing that may be inconvenient at times, but (oops!) I think the effectiveness of the no criticism rule in creating an atmosphere of safety and acceptance has resulted in a great learning environment.

As for the 'but' rule, I've hear the same thing several times. Not sold strongly enough on the idea to advocate it, but I'm definitely more mindful now of the negative side to this word.

Guilty as charged ! But I expect to throw myself on the mercy of the court ! Big AL

Just bumping this thread up after putting a post on probation for a classic line of "Not being racist, but..."

Really guys, the 'be nice' rule isn't difficult to remember. If you feel the need to preface something with 'not being racist, but', then you know damned well you're being racist. Take it somewhere else please!

Everybody has a big but.

As one of my good friends often says, everything you say after the but negates everything you said before.

And avoid the "but-He's" too.  What's a "but-He?"  

It's a phrase often uttered by my three sons.  When the younger sibling is gasping for breath, looking for all the world like he will die with projectile tears flying from his eyes, I say to the older sibling, "YOU KNOW you are not supposed to punch him!!!"  The reply is, "But HE did this!  Or "But HE did that!!!"  But-Shes work too I suppose, but I only had one daughter, so not a lot of those ever happen.

"I'm trying to be nice, but ..."

to me this says the writer knows they are not being nice but they are going to be not nice anyway to see if they can get away with it.

Rob Alexander wrote:Gotta disagree with you boss..
"but" is a Coordinating Conjunction, and in the context that we're discussing, generally suggests a contrast that is unexpected in light of the first clause: "I am a permaculturist, but I keep a dog as a pet."
The "but" doesn't negate the first clause,  it adds additional, modifying information.

You've also got me wondering,
"our mission is to never suggest that anybody here on permies.com is anything less than perfect"
Are we all perfect? Really? Then why do we have any problems at all?
I think the reason why most of us are here at Permies is that we're not perfect, and we'd like to be better.
I know for sure that I'm a loooong way from perfect, and I appreciate people who can point out where I'm wrong, because then I can change my ideas and move forward.
Are critical thinking and disagreement not important parts of the quest for knowledge?

All true, however there is a perception that the word "but" is negative in nature.


When I worked in safety (and on here) I am careful with the word "but". I never end with it, because saying, "Your orchards are lovely, but the grass needs trimming", only leaves the person with the impression that you are judging their orchard by the height of the grass. YES a person was being complimentary at first, however the word "but" negated it.

On the railroad as safety coordinator, I listed 2 things an employee/crew was doing right for every thing I noticed that was unsafe. I also made sure the negative list was listed first, and ended with the positive list. This did wonders for safety.

I feel Paul has made it pretty clear to me that he is speaking of but being used as a negative.

but but but

Yes, r ranson, I get that from my chickens *all* the time! But aren't you going to give poor hungry me some of that soaked wheat you've got for the ducks? But didn't you bring some nice kale for me, too? But that's a slug - yuck - I want worms!
But can be a useful and worthwhile word when used correctly and responsibly. It can also be very insulting and critical when not!

r ranson wrote:but but but

Same goes for our cat, anyone who owns a cat will know what I mean: when the cat is finished having its 'say', it will automatically sashay away, with tail held high, and flash its butt. I always take that to mean the cat has made the last (non verbal) comment in any interaction.

I'm not going to insult anyone here... BUT... preseeds to insult a bunch of permies members.  

This is not acceptable.  

And the post quietly vanished away and none of you will ever need to read it.  
Well done Staff Members for catching that one so quickly.  

In both counseling and linguistics  circles I have heard that "why?" Is the most hostile word in the English language.  You make a good case for "but" to, at least, come in second.

If you are wondering about why, one reason is we have been thoroughly conditioned as children to know that means we are in trouble. " Why on earth did you ...."  it also means we are expected to immediately come of with a justification for our words or actions that will be judged.

It has also come slowly into my mind that the term "...yes, butting ...." is a common phrase in counseling circles.  That is when the client is encouraged to come up with solutions and manages to find a reason why the solutions won't work.  As in,  "Yes, there is a job available at the grocery store, but I got into a fight with the manager in the 3rd grade, and I am sure he won't hire me."   The but is used to build barriers.

"Not trying to start a debate on the subject but ..."
"I'm not trying to sound mean but..."
"I don't want to be snappy but..."

That's the last 12 hours.

There was a moment on Buffy The Vampire Slayer when the person said: "oh dear, you've got but-face."  "but-face?"  "you look like you're about to say 'but'"  I can't believe there isn't a meme about this.

But, but, but 13 years ago, the moderators allowed a post that is just like the one I wrote today!!!