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Is using used tires dangerous for health / nature?  RSS feed

 
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Hi people, first sorry for my English (I'm from Brasil). The deal is, having read some stuff about toxicity of tires, and that it should not be used for producing edible vegetables because of it's leaching effect on the soil and water; or even studies concerning dangerous uses of rubber crumb on soccer fields and playgrounds (check this for more info: http://www.plasticfieldsfornever.org/turf_report07.pdf).
Considering all this info, i would really like to understand if some uses of reused tire are really interesting, such as using it for leveling the ground, burying it for ecological sanitary uses or for building house walls with it. Any info you know about it, and if is there a conclusion on whether there is a safe use for reused tires, will be very welcome!
 
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Hi Gabriel. Welcome.

The main issue with tires is offgassing. Basically, they weather like many substances. Also, UV radiation makes them break down, and their volatile organic compounds are released into the air.

Essentially, the less they are exposed to oxygen and the elements, and the more stable the conditions in which they are used, the slower they will weather. So using them in an earthship is better than using them out in the sunlight, because rammed tightly with earth, stacked, and cobbed over, they are kept out of the sun, surrounded by thermal mass that takes time to change temperature. Unless an air and water-tight membrane is used, though, as cob does let air and moisture through, the rubber of the tire would continue to break down and offgas its VOCs into the house envelope.

So yes, tires are not really good for your health. If there are other materials around, they are your better bet.

For structural materials, I would suggest rammed earth or compressed earth block, although the former requires much less in terms of specialised equipment, simply most of what you'd need for pouring concrete and tamping earth.

The idea of using tires for other purposes isn't a new one, and has resulted in some embarrassing and costly environmental mistakes. The technology now exists to turn tires into fuel. Apart from recycling the rubber into seals for machines and, I don't know, canning, converting them to fuel and burning them cleanly instead of pumping more petroleum out of the ground is probably the most environmentally friendly thing that can be done with them.

Tires are not safe for health or nature, in my opinion. Just smell them. If being in a hot room with a bunch of tires isn't appealing to you, do you think being in a shelter made out of them is a good idea? What causes the reaction that makes you want to get away from such types of specific smells? Could it be that your senses are trying to tell you something, much in the way that our ancestors' senses told them that human feces were best kept away from food and sleeping places?

-CK
 
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Welcome Gabriel!  Your English is wonderful!
 
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Gabriel Lavinsky wrote:Considering all this info, i would really like to understand if some uses of reused tire are really interesting, such as using it for leveling the ground, burying it for ecological sanitary uses or for building house walls with it. 



Used tires make really good beehive stands (when positioned flat).
They are really strong and indestructible, relatively light, easy to move around, and they are capable of holding large weight (especially when the metal rim is inside).
The best part - no construction is needed.
Just toss is down and level - done.
Optionally, place some wood onto the tire before setting a hive.
Or set 2-3 tires side by side, place long boards on top of them and then set your hives.
If care, you can even paint those tire hive stands; up to you.

Every time I see a used tire, I collect it and use in my bee yards.
I need MORE used tires!
 
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I think that Chris covered it pretty well. Using tires in gardens is kind of like using old motor oil on fence posts and putting them on the ground--a topic i know Paul loved discussed on permies (wink wink)-- it probably works but it is not good for the environment and is not permaculture. Using tires in construction is probably not the greatest thing for breathing 24/7--this can be mitigated with proper sealing and so forth, but there are so many natural materials to use doesn't seem worth it. The recycling is great, and although tires can now be recycled for better purposes as chris said, most of them probably are just ending up in landfills with absolutely no secondary purpose. Ultimately for home building, I think it is less a healthy earth issue and more an issue for personal health. Great topic.
 
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Hi Gabriel. Welcome to Permies :)

Chris covered most of it, but I'll add in a little bit. I was a landscaper 5 years ago, and a company had only just started up which took old tires and remade them into landscaping products. Rubber pads, edging around lawn, crumbs etc. Remember that tires are made from Synthetic Rubber, so they have similar polymers and other chemicals that'd you find in plastics.

My experience while handling the products:

The crumbs were horrible and they literally had their smell even after a year of being used as "mulch". I'm quite sure that they were actually hurting several flower beds because they absorbed far too much heat and cooked the topsoil - think of how hot a tire gets laying on the ground on a 27'C day. They even had little bits of metal wire from the tire sticking out of them occasionally.

The edging and walking pads had no metal and didn't have any smell to them. I assume they melted tires, filtered them a bit and then put the liquid into a mould. This would mean a lot of the chemicals, such as the ones that cause off-gassing, would be reduced while being produced. But then again, we have to think about how much energy is going into the process of recycling this product aswell.

---

Personally I have never reused tires. I'm not sure if it's possible to use a product in an environmental manner when it is leeching chemicals and giving off gases for long periods of time. I am reminded of a geoff lawton quote, referencing extreme situations and poorer countries: "In these situations it's better to eat dirty food than nothing at all" (paraphrased from something about making a garden with fly-ash cinderblocks)

In order to burn tires properly to produce energy several additional steps are required:

a baghouse to capture particulate matter (such as mercury), carbon injections to absorb heavy metals, dioxins and furans, and the addition of lime to neutralize acid gases. Computer systems closely monitor pollutant levels to make sure they remain as low as possible.



Then there is the problem of what to do with those collected pollutants, but out of all the possible scenarios, burning them in efficient generators is probably the best long-term option.
 
If your only options were to reuse the tires or see them go to the landfill to be burned, the choice becomes obvious to get them away from the landfill. Permaculture most times revolves around making the best immediate choice rather than the ideal choice.

---

I will briefly add, not with the intent to create a new discussion, that I see recycling(as an industry) potentially turning into something not so good. Industry growth in this area is usually related to an increase in waste products, which is most times a negative for society as a whole. The 3 R's, in their specified order: Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.

Reducing the amount of tires needed is more critical than figuring out how to reuse current waste tires.
 
Gabriel Lavinsky
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Wow, thank you a lot for all replies. Glad to see my intuition was right, this is a group for a good debate. Thanks for the warm welcomes too!

So, as Chris pointed, the dangers of it are pretty much off gassing. However, I admit I'm still not too sure about the leaching effect. The researches I looked upon don't show a clear final result, but usually say that there is gradual leaching of zinc and some potentially toxic elements into soil and water. I think that some tire uses, some of which happen with ecological intentions, such  as using it for leveling the earth, or for making some sort of "natural" stair,  are not so ecological unless you take some actions concerning the bad effects of it. A solution I think would be some kind of plastic sheet between tires and soil, in order to reduce the leaching effect. But this I can just guess, and admit still haven't found a clear research showing, with clear measures, how bad it really is the leaching effect of tires on soil, how fast it goes, and if there is some way of reducing it to a safe point.

As far as I see, crumb tires are not a good option. Really, associated with cancer, and a huge list of toxicities, easy to inhale, off gassing, etc. I would not like to play soccer and have to breath this material.

I will briefly add, not with the intent to create a new discussion, that I see recycling(as an industry) potentially turning into something not so good. Industry growth in this area is usually related to an increase in waste products, which is most times a negative for society as a whole.



I think you are right Jarret, when you said that the recycling industry is making some things worse. Basically, it clears the faults of an industry that does not think ecologically, producing trash that the world is clearly not able to sustain. There is no way we should expect for all the tires to be recycled and then go to sleep in peace. The situation need dramatic changes, and I guess it is time for the industry to make the change. The tire material need to be redesigned, considering that a huge amount of these tires won't find a correct place for recycling. And also, proper recycling of tires is not easy. The correct transformation of tires in fuel does not seem to be cheap, so that in many places an incorrect transformation would take place. And that, apart from fuel (mostly used in cement factories) , the main end use for tires remains ground rubber (not good for health or nature).

I think we should be writing some kind of letter, or manifesting against the production of such a toxic product. But research is necessary, so we've already started that movement, at least.
On another hand, we don't need to stop reusing tires, but should know more about it's problems, and bring in the discussion about redesigning the product, which goes along with the permacultural struggle for a circular economy.

Thanks for the attention again, feeling more welcome to discuss these topics here. See ya

 
Chris Kott
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The conversion process I mentioned is a specific one. I wasn't talking about burning tires in an incinerator to power a heat engine for industry.

The process I referred to involves high heat and a retort to provide an anoxic (oxygen-free) environment to break down the tires into their component parts.

I am not sure of the particulars, but I believe the main end product was petroleum, probably diesel.

I think it would be better to convert tires to a liquid petroleum fuel, or to raw materials for advanced synthetics rather than to let them offgas and flake away on the soil or in the subsoil.

And wrapping rubbers and plastics in an envelope of more plastic and then expecting them to withstand stairway traffic probably won't work, in my opinion.

I don't think it's appropriate to use tires in contact with soil or water. I don't like the idea of using them earthship-style because the potential for them offgassing into my livingspace isn't worth the benefit of reusing tires.

-CK
 
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The tires in Earthships are basically just a permament form or mould for rammed earth. But rammed earth holds up very well if you ram it in a temporary form, remove the form after a day or three, and keep re-using one form along the whole building. Also, using tires as your form forces you to make your rammed earth wall much thicker than otherwise necessary, just because of the size of the tires.

Earthships were a cool idea, but rammed earth is great even without tires. I've been living and working in two-storey rammed earth buildings since 1996, and I love how they are structurally, thermally, acoustically, and aesthetically and in terms of humidity. And a thousand years from now, I hope somebody is gardening in the soil recovered from our walls. Someone brought us the Earthship books while we were still building, and they were encouraging, but I'm glad we had already worked out our own revival of the local style of rammed earth, and innovated removable seasonal greenhouses instead of Earthship's permanent greenhouses.
 
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I am almost beginning to think that Permies needs a FAQ document about the health and safety implications of using/reusing/recycling/upcycling old tires.  Although this question was initially about earthship construction, it has already branched into tire recycling generally and into using tires as garden planters (a practice that I myself make heavy use of).  We've had several people express opinions kinda facty-like and nobody has yet brought up Paul Wheaton's clearly expressed preferences on how he'd like to see the matter discussed in advancing permaculture education at this forum.  So I have added this thread to the recycling and gardening forums and I'm going to link a few relevant threads where this has been discussed rather heavily in the past.  Hopefully all that will help a bit.

First of all, some clarity: the original poster linked to a .pdf about a toxicity study involving a ground-up "rubber crumb" recycled tire product.  Virtually all of the quantitative information about the "toxicity of recycled tires" and other scientific information of that sort has focused on that product, which is an industrial material used mostly to make playing surfaces for children.  Because so much surface area of the ground up tires is exposed to air and water, leaching seems as if it may be a serious problem with the crumb material and it is absolutely the dirtiest possible way imaginable (except perhaps for open burning) to recycle an old tire.  I certainly wouldn't mulch my vegetables or children with that stuff.

Whenever the conversation turns to genuine recycling of old tires in their original or lightly modified forms (as in, no grinding, not much cutting or drilling) be aware of one thing: there is no science.  Nobody has done any.  If somebody makes a confident statement about toxicity, they are at best incorrect, or at worst, telling you a whopper.  Nobody knows.  Because nobody has studied it very much.  (Disclaimer: that I know of.  I haven't seen any studies.  No studies ever come up in these discussions.  The studies cited always seem to be pointing at ground-up tires, or tires in water.)

Some opinions offered in this thread are that old tires used for earthship housing construction "are not really good for your health," and "are not safe for health or nature."  Another poster has opined that using tires in gardens "probably works but it is not good for the environment and is not permaculture."  My own opinions run to the contrary but I've gone into those elsewhere; I highlight these here just to point out that we are swapping opinions.  In particular, what's good for the environment depends a lot on context; when I pull old tires out of a roadside litter pile and make it into a neat garden planter, I challenge anybody to establish a net environmental detriment.  Where you end up depends an awful lot on where you start!

As you might imagine, this has all been thrashed out in some length on Permies in the past.

8 years ago: Are tires safe to use in and around gardens?

Highlights:

paul wheaton wrote:The recycler/re-user in me conflicts with the organic in me.   But I've had tires offered to me before and in the end I always reject the tires. 

They just aren't inert enough for me.

But .... that's just me.




5 years ago: Big tires for "Keyhole-ish" design

Highlight:

paul wheaton wrote:
2)  My mission with these forums to gather knowledge about stuff far beyond organic.  I don't want to publish discussions on GMOs, herbicides or petroleum fertilizers - that's for other forums.  The use of tires is something that might be considered organic, therefore I will allow it.  but just barely.  And I do want the resulting discussion to strongly favor NOT using tires. 

3)  When I first started gardening, I really sucked at it.  But I quickly learned that I needed more soil.  And one of the things I did was use a big tractor tire and fill it with soil.  It worked awesome:  the rhubarb planted in it was HUGE!  It was about a year later that I started to feel uneasy about the tire and the potential toxins.  And a year after that that I started making plans to get rid of the tire.   And now I am adamantly against the idea of using tires in gardening.   Therefore, i cannot fault this path - I've done the same thing.  And I hope that folks coming to this site and reading this thread will come to the conclusion of not using tires in their stuff - thus avoided my past errors.



1 year ago: Are tire planters safe?

Highlight:

Nah.  It looks too vain when I quote myself, and besides, I disagree with Paul.  You gotta click through if you want to see why I think the benefits outweigh the potential toxicities.  And maybe in a few more years I'll be further down the path and saying the same thing as Paul, who knows?
 
Gabriel Lavinsky
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This remind me of some thoughts regarding recycling that I wanna express:
I respect anyone when it comes to concerns on what to do with old tires. But.... for some people that seem to have this itch (right expression?) to reuse tires whenever they can, I gotta add: there is this great gap between the industry of production and the structure of the post-use of these products. Tire is one of the worst examples of it, it is useful and used all over the world, BUT we have not enough concerns from the producers on what to do with it, even more considering it will last more than 600 years decomposing, liberating toxicity as far as studies show.

So, big trouble, uh? How to solve it? Should we really be concerned about how to recycle it? If you are, good. But it seems more emergent to me to rethink the design of it, and even more, to remind people that recycling will not save the world. No way we can expect that. Recycle will help mend some trouble created by the actual crazy state of things, when we as global society produce a lot of stuff that we don't even want to know about after it is used, even when we know it is going to be bad for some neighbor country. In Brasil, we see tires specially in poor places, where they become home for mosquitoes and other plagues.

So, i think that:
if we just recycle, but don't bring in the critic (or concern) about the industry that produce  toxic material and have little concern about whatever happens next, we are giving a vote to a state of world where, as pointed earlier, recycling will make it worse, instead of making it better for the environment, both social and natural. If we really want this recycle thing to work, I think we should remember to bring in this critic, which we can attempt to resume it in the sentence: "OK, we are recycling, but this is not the solution, it is just a part of the immediate remedy. If we want to truly change this situation, we need to change the production industry, we need to redesign and consider the post-use right in the design of the product". I know many of you think like that, but here in Brasil I've been seeing many works with tires. Great (some), but many of them seem to bring the idea that we should be handling somehow this trouble, that we (common citizens) should find out a way of dealing with the tires we find out in the streets (without considering the great amount that get to the oceans), when it seems to me that it is more necessary to find out alternatives to the present state of tires.
But as we say here in Brasil, I'm just "problematizing" :P
Also that's the conclusion I've come to, to bring in these thoughts whenever working with reused tires. Not saying everybody should do the same

p.s: the FAQ seem a good idea. I also think that every discussion could have some kind of 'Highlights Table' of it, maybe done by some volunteer. Could make it easy for those who want to catch up info quickly. Cheers 
 
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Gabriel Lavinsky wrote:"OK, we are recycling, but this is not the solution, it is just a part of the immediate remedy. If we want to truly change this situation, we need to change the production industry, we need to redesign and consider the post-use right in the design of the product".



Gabriel I just quoted one sentence from your post but really I am in agreement with the whole thing.  At least in theory, you are 100% correct.  It's just... I'm not recycling to change the world, I'm recycling because I am, by local standards, poor.

When I pull tires out of the waste stream (or, as I do more often, when I pull them out of the natural environment where they have been dumped by assholes as litter and pollution, because in this country there is a fee to put them in the official waste stream that many people prefer to avoid by illegal dumping) I am "solving" one immediate problem but I am not changing the world and in a way I'm even taking off some of the pressure on the producers of the problem.  I am also creating some pressure and problem for the future owners of the land where I put these tires to use, which is the biggest reason I'm not using them on a much larger scale.  That's something I've discussed with my wife in detail (it's her family land) and she's firmly of the opinion that I am creating net local improvements with the tires; this land is in terrible condition from previous abuse by oil and cattle interests so that's at least plausible. 

What's going on is that when I see this litter/pollution/waste at the side of the road and dumped on public land, I see a resource.  There's an ENORMOUS wealth of embodied petroleum energy and minerals in a used tire, taking the form of strong chemical bonds and great physical strength and durability that I can use for all kinds of projects, mostly planters and makeshift gabions (rock baskets to control erosion).  By local standards I'm not wealthy enough to drive past those resources and ignore them; and in fact, I'm not as wealthy as most of the people here on Permies who have the luxury of taking counsel of their concerns about toxins and deciding "better not take the risk".  These resources solve problems for me that would otherwise go unsolved; I don't have the money to buy equivalently strong building materials or the strength and physical fitness to build equivalently strong structures from the natural materials on my land by hand or the capital equipment (petroleum powered machinery) to assist me in doing so with the strength and fitness that I do have.  So I use them.

I do agree, though, that it would be a huge mistake to vanish the whole tire waste stream into reuse and upcycling without requiring the tire industry to assume more responsibility for the problem they are creating than they do now.
 
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Chris Kott wrote:The conversion process I mentioned is a specific one. I wasn't talking about burning tires in an incinerator to power a heat engine for industry.

The process I referred to involves high heat and a retort to provide an anoxic (oxygen-free) environment to break down the tires into their component parts.
I am not sure of the particulars, but I believe the main end product was petroleum, probably diesel.



The topic of my thesis  was "technological, economical, and environmental issues of  scrap tires utilisation processes".
I'm a chemist by profession but environmental extremist by soul. 
For me the most scary way of scrap tires utilisation was creating a .....reef of them.
introducing  such a contaminant into such extremely fragile habitat made my soul scream.
The one who knows the chemical composition of tires already gets a thrill.
Most of the rubber mix additives are top secret technological and you must believe me those compounds are not the one you'd love to have in your soil.

And yes.. the most enviro friendly way of utilising them was pirolisis.
It allowed to regain at least a part of energy  of the tire production process.
The oil obtained  has a similar composition to heavy fractions from crude oil distillation thus after refination can be used as a fuel.
The gas is used as pirolisis energy source. The coke was considered  a waste.
unfortunately the process is not economically viable unless  the price of a oil barrel reaches 197$
therefore  most of scrap tires ends up exported to...Kuwait to be stored on the worlds biggest scrap tires landfill.
That got in flames a couple of years ago.
some ends in a cement kilns and we hope the cement producing plants cares about their stack emission.
  


 
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I love how these topics go around and around and after 20 years the same guesses and assumptions live on and nobody seems to know about resources equally old.

Some actual research (whoever posted there's no science is incorrect) from University of Wisconsin, a compilation of a bunch of stuff, all under the heading "Use of scrap tires in civil and environmental construction" is here:
http://chbenson.engr.wisc.edu/images/stories/pdfs/Reports/UW-Madison%20Scrap%20Tire%20Reprints.pdf

There was one major report - probably included in this compilation, and I have a hard copy somewhere still I think - that was pointed to by the Earthship folks back in the day. It basically said that used tire material buried in the ground doesn't seem to leach much of anything and since it's buried there's no offgassing and no UV-destabilization. The use case was chunked up tires as part of a subsurface earthen fill and/or embankment material for civil engineering. Any buried tire application is essentially similar, unless there are also solvents in the ground that degrade tire material, in which case the tire is probably the least of the problems.

What might be of major concern is the use of tires on actual cars, where they are a major non-point pollution source spread all over the country and emitting whenever they are driven on, spewing out tiny particulates that move with the air and water.
So for anyone concerned about reducing pollution from tires, the place to start is cars. Forget that old tractor tire planter in Grandma's yard. Minor issue. Do something about all those cars!
 
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What might be of major concern is the use of tires on actual cars, where they are a major non-point pollution source spread all over the country and emitting whenever they are driven on, spewing out tiny particulates that move with the air and water. So for anyone concerned about reducing pollution from tires, the place to start is cars. Forget that old tractor tire planter in Grandma's yard. Minor issue. Do something about all those cars!



I tried to understand and follow this discussion's many ups and downs, lefts and rights, goods and bads of recycling old tires and health. This discussion and as well as those 1000s of other ones that preceded for decades. Now in typing that I think the above statement sort of hits the nail on the head for me! I will also add this being a topic that has concerned me since high school back in the 60s... no not 1860s yet close... of what is a solution to recycling tires. I really don't think in all of that time have we come any closer to a SOLUTION! ...anyways... It has been difficult for me to try also and walk lightly on the earth through this life when one has had to spend a lifetime of actions like spreading tire waste over everywhere trying to just function and then come off high and mighty as an permaculture environmentalist saving the planet by offering quasi solutions for recycling tires. This when in effect is not something I think in my lifetime can be done or in anyone else's in the future other then the INDUSTRY that created this issue in the first place. My point being that if I in my self created illusion of my permaculture world decide to use or offer to use or offer suggestions to how to recycle tires in a healthy manner, I am part of the greater problem. I will add too that unfortunately this issue of being part of the problem plagues us all in the way I see things and more importantly in the way things I can not see are effected in an microbially way. No matter what good Earthship science tells me. My good science guesses then should tell me maybe in the short run we should stop using tires that just the tread wears out, leaving a useless tire to be waste and go to just all completely SOLID tires. These tires driven till we get down to the metal rim. This then allows us to live in Earthships with gardens and playgrounds of more natural earth and stone. This way too {until we come up with a better, gentler mode of transportation} will at least then have the solution in continuing to recycle tires just a little bit at a time ALL OVER the place... as sad as that remains to be in our proverbial asphalt jungles.

My suggestion is then Please for your health just recycle dirt and stone as much as possible... it has worked well for many a century!
 
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